Best class for all 18's... seriously

[doc225]

My DM has given me the allowance of playing a human character with all ability scores of 18. The catch is he can never receive stat boosts from items, spells, or even level advancement. my scores will always be all 18's.

He also wants me to not munchkin the hell out of it, but play a jack of all trades type character. I am thinking either a bard or monk, with the able learner feat, and not maxing out any skills. I want to try to allocate my skills evenly at at first, and then maybe start raising them unevenly when I see what the party wants and needs.

I like the idea of Monk, using dex and wisdom to my AC, but not really focusing on combat very much. I read all the time that monk is only for people who like to play on HARD MODE, but I figure with the ability scores and the style of game we are already playing, it might work out ok.

Any thoughts?

I don't want to optimize this character for anything specific, but play as a guy with natural ability in just about everything, yet not focused in any one thing.

Thanks ahead

[Ranting Fool]

Well the "Jack of all Trades" feat gives you a half rank in everything. So you'd get +4 to ever skill (which is nice). Any class that needs a lot of different stats would enjoy having 18 on everything though oddly enough "pure" casters much rather have 20+ on their core casting stat.

If it was me I'd pick either Monk or Pally as when ever I've done them I've always wanted more stats :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

[The Random NPC]

Also bards have a ACF called bardic knack, lets them use half their level for their skill ranks IIRC.

[Gavinfoxx]

Bard. Jack of All Trades + Bardic Knack... =D

[Yuki Akuma]

Monk will not work out well.

All 18s, forever, is not a good spread for anything, honestly. At level 20 you should have at least one score in the 20s, and many monsters at that CR reflect this.

I'd seriously consider turning him down and rolling stats yourself.

[Flame of Anor]

Just find all the classes you can that would be cool except for MAD, and use those. Monk and Paladin, as mentioned, are good ones.

[Ranting Fool]

Just find all the classes you can that would be cool except for MAD, and use those. Monk and Paladin, as mentioned, are good ones.

Or Monkish Paladins :smallbiggrin:

[lsfreak]

My DM has given me the allowance of playing a human character with all ability scores of 18. The catch is he can never receive stat boosts from items, spells, or even level advancement. my scores will always be all 18's.

If this campaign is intended to go higher than level 10 or so, this is a trap. All 18's seems good, but once you're around 10th level you should be rocking at least a +6 in your main ability in order to keep up. D&D is not kind to jack-of-all-trades.

[Eldariel]

Bard is probably the way to go here, honestly. Warlock and Artificer could also kinda work, but Bard makes pretty good use of all the stats and doesn't suffer that badly if you can't max out Charisma.

[blackspeeker]

I feel like with all 18s factotum would be good. or paladin, that would work too.

[Gwendol]

Paladin is seconded. Possibly throwing on some bard. You sure will have the abilities to cover all aspects.

[Tvtyrant]

Eh, Bardic Knack + Jack of All Trades and Dragonfire Inspiration + Words of Creation makes you relevant both in and out of combat. Make an archer that does okay damage through your inspiration, buff the heck out of everyone else, and be consistently relevant in skill checks. Solid tier 3.

Artificer would also do fine, though perhaps not perfectly optimal. Would work pretty well with an Archerficer, since you can wand chamber up a Hanks Bow. You can still power attack using the bow, combining it with Divine Power to get the most out of it.

[Lapak]

Paladin is seconded. Possibly throwing on some bard. You sure will have the abilities to cover all aspects.Paladin is the base class that gets the most out of all 18s (melee-oriented needs STR/CON/DEX, casting needs WIS, class powers need CHA, low skill bonus means the high INT is a boon) but it doesn't work all that well as a jack of all trades. The class skill list doesn't lend itself to skill-monkeying and the casting is fairly combat-oriented with few utility options compared to the other classes. Grab a couple of levels of Paladin, for sure, but then build it mostly on a Bard chassis. That'd be where I'd go with it.

[Eldariel]

I feel like with all 18s factotum would be good. or paladin, that would work too.

Issue with Factotum is that Factotum makes an all-stat character single stat by focusing everything on Intelligence. Which is not at all useful for you.


Paladin is seconded. Possibly throwing on some bard. You sure will have the abilities to cover all aspects.

Paladin has the issue that it's a class that really only has offensive use and without the ability to scale your offensive stat past 18, you're going to fall far behind eventually when others might be rocking 30+ in the same stat and monsters' defenses scale accordingly.

Same reason you can't really go Cleric here even tho Cleric loves high stats on paper; Clerics want to use their spells and physical capabilities offensively and thus they need more Wisdom (eventual 9th level spells, extra slots, save DCs and all that) and physicals (for, y'know, hitting things).

[jaybird]

Warlock, maybe? Iunno, if it's ending beyond level 10, I'd just roll stats myself.

[Tvtyrant]

It also wouldn't be awful on a self buffing Druid, although you wouldn't have fantastic health. Could also work with a camo-craftlock. Big UMD boost, gets lots of different abilities, can make stuff.

[Andorax]

I'm a bit surprised. Take away 9ths, and all the sudden cleric and wizard aren't on the table anymore?

I'd expect the answer to be more of a not-a-lot-of-saves approach to Cleric or Wizard (I'm not suggesting Druid because I have *no* idea how "your stats are always all 18s" would interact with wildshape) and then look to one of those prestige classes that nobody suggests taking because "you won't get your 9th level spells until epic".


Another important question....can your character suffer ability damage or drain?

[Mushroom Ninja]

Chameleon could be really cool, since it really likes having 16+ int/wis, as well as good physical stats. What to do with your first five levels is up to you, as long as you get the skills right for the Chameleon entry -- some ToB stuff or Incarnum could work well to fill the gap.

[Tvtyrant]

Come to think of it, I think this would be okay for most gishes. Especially if they go the TWF route.

[Crasical]

Chameleon could be really cool, since it really likes having 16+ int/wis, as well as good physical stats. What to do with your first five levels is up to you, as long as you get the skills right for the Chameleon entry -- some ToB stuff or Incarnum could work well to fill the gap.

I like the idea of going Chameleon just because it ties in with your abnormally good base stats, a prodigy who can excel at whatever he puts his mind to.

[nedz]

The short answer is - whatever you want to play.

I quite like the idea of Rogue
18 Str, Dex and Con mean you will be good in a fight.
18 Int gives you 12 skill points per level.
18 Cha is useful for several skills, face ones mainly but also UMD.
18 Wis may seem a little wasted, but you will have good Will saves and of course Spot.

Or you could go for one of the multi-threat builds.

[Azernak0]

Kind of lame that your stats will always be 18. Not super important for a basically any class to have all 18's. Better to have most that are 8-14 and the two you need upwards of 22+ with magic. However, I don't see it being too much of a problem.

Honestly, Druid, Clerics, and Wizards still win over all. You won't get 9th level spells but I am fairly confident that 8th level spells are more than enough to make your point known. The Big Three also (generally) get better class features than any most other classes.

I wouldn't go Monk. It is not "Monks are bad because they are MAD", it is more like "Monks are bad and they are MAD." Monks just don't have the method to be good on their own.

Psychic Warrior would be pretty cool, especially going Tashalatora King of Smack. Lots of to hit, lots of Tank (Inertia Armor + Vigor + maybe Share Pain makes a pretty tanky dude), and lots of Power Points. It's the Monk but doesn't suck really.

With all 18's, I could see some kind of Gish build working out quite well. Something like a Sorcadin would be fairly powerful. One of the problems with Gish builds is they generally have crappy spells and good to hit, ok spells and ok to hit, or good spells and crappy to hit because they generally can't get a great balance. With all 18's, you are good to go from the start.

[Yuki Akuma]

The thing with full casters is that, with only 18 in your primary casting stat, you're not getting much in the way of bonus spells, and your save DCs won't be very good.

[KillianHawkeye]

Factotum 1/Monk 2/Paladin 2/Chameleon X
Able Learner
Jack of All Trades

You get Wis to AC, Evasion, Cha to all Saves, all skills as class skills forever, and a couple minor combat tricks, plus the flexibility of Chameleon.

[Ingus]

Easy route is Bard 5, Chameleon 10, Bard 5 with bardic knack and dragonfire inspiration.

The not-so-easy route is to outsmart your DM. It is a dangerous route, because he can either being amused or terribly pissed off. That said


My DM has given me the allowance of playing a human character with all ability scores of 18. The catch is he can never receive stat boosts from items, spells, or even level advancement. my scores will always be all 18's.



Vow of poverty + Chameleon + stuff.

Basicly, you're trying to get ability bonus from Vow of Poverty (not item, nor spell, nor level advancement) and Chameleon's Ability Boon. At level 20 you should end with 18+6(boon)+8(VoP) = 32 (+11) to a single ability.
Then you start to stack spells over spells from Chameleon and the "stuff" said, wich leaves you with some nasty trick.

For example: Factotum 3 (verify) gives you Mind over Brawl, wich add Int as a modifier with Str, Dex and Con based skills. So, to say, you may have Jack of All Trades to have +15 to any (non optimized) physical skill.

Monk 1 gives you +Wis to AC, but Carmandine Monk/Kung Fu Genius give you Int to AC instead.
Avenger (the non chaotic assassin) has death attack (yours would be DC 21+Avenger levels)

And so on (consider the reading of X stat to Y bonus thread for more reference).

The good thing of VoP is that gives you minor bonus to other stats as well (if I remember correctly +8/6/4/2 at 19th). The good thing of Ability Boon is that you may switch it to other bonuses as well.

Those tactics open up a world of possibilities for you and a world of headache for your DM.

...or you may stick with bard + chameleon :smallbiggrin:

[VideoGameGeek]

Cleric honestly. Fighting, tank, and caster rolled into one. You wouldn't excel at any one portion of that, but you can definitely do all of it very well.

[eggs]

Cleric honestly. Fighting, tank, and caster rolled into one. You wouldn't excel at any one portion of that, but you can definitely do all of it very well.
I'd back that. Especially Cloistered.

[Gavinfoxx]

I wouldn't get vow of poverty... after all, things that negate the need for large ability bonuses are the domain of magic items, and you do NOT want to miss out from those!

[Ernir]

A Cleric or Druid would be seriously meh, I think. No 9ths to look forward to, and more importantly... half those buffs you're using to beat the Fighter at his job? They don't work.

I'm backing the Bard idea.

You could go through the X stat to Y thread and see how far you can get by making a build whose purpose is to add everything to everything, grabbing all the low-hanging fruit. :smalltongue:

[Lord_Gareth]

Why not go Duskblade?

[Endarire]

Druid or Wizard. They're powerful enough already. Sure the loss of spell slots hurts, but he can just make another character when his old one gets weak. Right?

[Dr.Epic]

I guess rogue or monk would be the best option. Maybe druid or ranger.

[dspeyer]

No stat boosts from spells does make gishing or clericzilling very difficult. It makes normal fighing hard too. Are you allowed to rage?

Violence without stats probably calls for Tome of Battle. Let's see what we can mix up:

Bard 4 / Warblade 2 / Jade Phoenix Mage 4 / Sublime Chord 1 / Jade Phoenix Mage 6 / Abjurant Champion 1 / Master of Nine 2

8th level spells from the union of bard and sor/wiz lists, for lots of utility, some healing, and Irresistible Dance at level 14 (who needs high DCs?).

9th level maneuvers from a wide assortment of schools. Diamond Mind will probably be a big friend here. After all, without stat boosters, you have a lot of money for skill boosters.

A pretty good skill list from Bard, which you can hang onto with Able Learner.

Note that the final AC/Mo9 is only because JPM runs out. If your DM will let you continue that, do so instead.

[Togo]

Druid -> Master of Many Forms (ignore stats entirely)

Bard -> Seeker of the Song (bards use stats to dabble in combat, gain skills and saves)

Fighter/ranger/bard -> master thrower5 -> Chameleon 10

Monk

Dip like crazy
e.g.

Barbarian1/fighter2/marshal2/Occultslayer5/divine champion8/etc.

Uses every stat except wisdom, which just feeds your will save.

I assume gaining stat increases from acquired templates is also out?

What about class abilities? Something like praemeval from Frostburn, or bear warrior from Complete adventurer gives you stat increases as a class ability, as does the shapechange druid variant in PHBII.

[ericgrau]

At level 20 you need a 32+ in your main stat. Unless you can make up for that -7 modifier somehow, I wouldn't play anything relying on a roll of any kind: attack, save, skill, whatever. Best bet is probably a caster using spells that don't have save DCs. Wall of force, buffs, etc. Or a druid melee, but even then your hp suffers.

Another alternative might be to get multiple stats to apply to your roll. Just 2 more stats makes up for that -7. Dig up the X to Y thread and see if there's anything you can use.

[Morph Bark]

Bard/Warblade sounds like a good way to go.

Don't take Jack of All Trades + Knack, though. Jack of All Trades doesn't work with Knack, despite what some people might think. Knack is good though, especially for a single-classed Bard.

[Gavinfoxx]

Jack of all trades doesnt work with knack if your DM reads it like an ass!

Ask the DM...

[Morph Bark]

Jack of all trades doesnt work with knack if your DM reads it by RAW!

FTFY.

I agree that it may be sensible to let them work together, but the RAW is extremely clear on this.

[eggs]

On the Cleric's viability, it has spells better than ability boosts.
Even if leaving aside its full casting, good spell list and cheap metamagic and only focusing on its melee: Girallon's Blessing is still straight extra attacks, Ice Axe is still auto-hit, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful and Recitation are still numeric boosts, Law Devotion is still a huge attack bonus

With its malleable skill list, it can make good use of high base Intelligence; with its Turning (and especially DMM), it can make good use of Charisma at low levels (but still have a variety of ways to increase the number/power of turning through bonuses to derived stats) and with its summons, buffs, debuffs and battlefield control, the slowly declining saves won't be such a problem.

No 9th level spells is a pain, but 8th level spells from a good list are still better than most classes get. And the high-level slots could at least be used for some metamagic.

[Mithril Leaf]

I'd recommend dipping like crazy for stat X to Y. I'm agreeing with that factotum 1 with able learner and then paladin 1 and monk 1. Something along those lines to give you a bunch of bonuses. Maybe a level in that barbarian monk class from Complete Champion.

[dspeyer]

It also occurs to me that Beguiler 10 / Rainbow Servant 10 could be fun here. Normally those 4 caster levels would be a painful loss, but you're still getting 8th level spells, so why complain?

Maybe make that Beguiler 7 / Rainbow Servant 1 / Sacred Exorcist 3 / Rainbow Servant 9 and pick up Domain Spontaneity and some Arcane Disciples. Maybe retrain the ADs when you hit the RS capstone.

[Soranar]

18 to all stats...

Spellcasters:

-you'd miss out on having a high DC (since you need 1 really high stat)
-you lose on buffs (since buffing your stats doesn't work)

Wildshape:

-makes your high stats mostly irrelevant, which defeats the purpose

Basically, Druid since like a bad idea. High DC casters, or casters that just buff themselves, also seem like a bad idea.

VOP

-might actually be worth it (if your DM allows it, which would be doubtful since it goes against the ''no buffs to your stats'' rule)

Things that work well:

-A Paladin (with sword of the arcane order and a few other ACF you could become rather versatile)
-A Barbarian /Champion of Gwynharwiff (basically a Barbarian/Paladin)
-A BardBlade (Bard 1/Warblade x, use the class stacking feat to get a decent inspire courage)
-A Ranger (focus on using bows, add sword of the arcane order = you get an archer that can deliver a ludicrous amount of damage, look up the hunter's eye and sniper's shot spells)

other options

-anything 5 + Chameleon 10 (Personally I like factotum /chameleon but spellthief 8 has the unique option of boosting chameleon spellcasting through master spellthief feat).

[Flickerdart]

I'd try and get into Fochluchan Lyrist. You don't have to worry about MAD, so you might as well theurge, and it's the only one that does it well while still letting you fight and skill.

[Gwendol]

Paladin is the base class that gets the most out of all 18s (melee-oriented needs STR/CON/DEX, casting needs WIS, class powers need CHA, low skill bonus means the high INT is a boon) but it doesn't work all that well as a jack of all trades. The class skill list doesn't lend itself to skill-monkeying and the casting is fairly combat-oriented with few utility options compared to the other classes. Grab a couple of levels of Paladin, for sure, but then build it mostly on a Bard chassis. That'd be where I'd go with it.

What I meant to say also was that with the high CHA he'd get a lot of mileage out of turn undead (DMM). But then again, part of that idea is to get self buffs including stat increases, which won't necessarily work. Still, persisted divine favour together with optimized inspire courage (DFI'd or not) is not bad.

That however would also be true for a cleric. Cloistered cleric/bard? Probably go easy on the bard in that case.

[Draz74]

Another vote for "something with Bard."


I'd try and get into Fochluchan Lyrist. You don't have to worry about MAD, so you might as well theurge, and it's the only one that does it well while still letting you fight and skill.
Oooh, that is a pretty good option.


It also occurs to me that Beguiler 10 / Rainbow Servant 10 could be fun here. Normally those 4 caster levels would be a painful loss, but you're still getting 8th level spells, so why complain?

Well, technically by RAW the Rainbow Servant doesn't lose caster levels anyway. But yeah, if I were DM, I'd rule that it's only allowed with the caster level loss. In that case, this is a powerful possibility.

But along the same lines, since "I'm not able to get Level 9 spells anyway" is an issue, you could take advantage of another powerful PrC that loses several caster levels, such as Swiftblade. Specifically, I'm thinking of

Bard 7 / Swiftblade 3 / Sublime Chord 2 / Swiftblade 7 / Bard 1

or something like that. (You could try to squeeze in some other cool PrC levels, like Lyric Thaumaturge or Shadowcraft Mage dips, but I'm trying to keep it semi-simple.)
EDIT: Actually, the last level should ideally be something that progresses Sublime Chord casting more. Mindbender or Abjurant Champion, perhaps?
EDIT2: I guess technically you can't cast Haste from Sublime Chord spell slots without the DM making a minor houserule about it. If not, then there's little point in picking up the last Swiftblade level. So, some other PrC would be better for that level. Perhaps ...

Bard 7 / Swiftblade 3 / Sublime Chord 1 / Swiftblade 6 / Shadowcraft Mage 3

[Acanous]

a one-level Marshal dip might be good as well. If your stats never get beyond 18, you can still get an extra +4 to some things.

[Gwendol]

a one-level Marshal dip might be good as well. If your stats never get beyond 18, you can still get an extra +4 to some things.

Good point. Might be useful to map out what will stack in the end.

[Trinoya]

Why limit yourself to the 'best class' ^_^ Find someone to cheese yourself into lyrist and enjoy multiple spell lists, full base attack bonus, evasion, and some absurd perform skill. Just make sure that first level you take is gonna be in a high skill point class.. you're gonna need it. :)

[2xMachina]

All 10 lvls of Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)

Wizard 6/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant Champion 4 probably?

You're a gish, self buffing doesn't care about DC.
You don't get 9th, but you can't cast it with 18 anyway. But you do get Time Stop at lvl 16.

[Wavelab]

Well if the DM says that you can't get penalties to the stats either then I suggest the Ritual of Blood from Eberron. For -2 Con you get Charisma to HP. That's pretty good since with 18 Con and 18 Cha you'll be getting +8 HP/level instead or +4.

[Rejakor]

Look for things that aren't multiple stat dependent or heavy level investments, and just take them.

Paladin 2 gives you cha to saves, charging smite, and good chassis - it wants you to go more paladin for charging smite and sword of the arcane order + battle blessing + Abjurant Champion, but you can ignore that if you want.

Rogue X - gives you sneak attack and lots of skills, as well as evasion.

Swordsage - gives you so many things

Bard - gives you DFI, and sublime chord access.

I mean, you could for example make a Paladin/Warblade/Bard/Sublime Chord/Spelldancer/Monk, that starts up a song each round of combat for +XD6 energy damage to each attack or +X/+X, as a swift action, has cha to saves, cha to AC, uses Metamagic and Talfirian Song feats to persist 4th level bard spells (and other bard spells, like Swift Haste) to buff himself etc etc, and has decent maneuvers.

Since you can't max out anything that requires a certain stat, you are best off picking up a slew of random bonuses, as well as at least one brand of spellcasting. Sublime Chord or Urpriest work well for that, and let you sink a lot of levels into picking up stuff you want, just cherrypicking some classes. Go find the X stat to Y ability thread, and just pick whatever is easiest to get - you don't really care which stat you're adding, just what you're adding it to, since all stats are the same for you, which lets you do crazy stuff with adding like wis and cha and int and str and dex to AC, and con and cha to damage, and whatever.

[Dusk Eclipse]

If you go rainboe servant with a fixed list caster, you can get 9th level spells with versatile spellcaster.

[Yuki Akuma]

If you go rainboe servant with a fixed list caster, you can get 9th level spells with versatile spellcaster.

You can't cast 9th level spells with a casting stat of 18.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Does that applies even to spells casted by versatile spellcaster?

[Leon]

18 to all stats...

Spellcasters:
-you lose on buffs (since buffing your stats doesn't work)


Spellcaster is still a good idea because even if the PC personally doesn't benefit the rest of the group does - and its better to have a majority buffed group than unbuffed just because one PC cant use it.



I don't want to optimize this character for anything specific, but play as a guy with natural ability in just about everything, yet not focused in any one thing.


To me that says bard all over it.

[Yuki Akuma]

Does that applies even to spells casted by versatile spellcaster?

To cast a spell, you need a minimum casting stat equal to the spell's level, plus 10. So to cast a 9th level spell, you need a casting stat of 19.

It doesn't matter where the spell comes from. You need a stat high enough to cast it.

A 20th level caster with an 18 in his primary stat can only use his 9th level spell slots for metamagic. Except Heighten.

[Rejakor]

The vast majority of games don't get to level 17. Just play whatever. I'd say dip everything, because that is what melee bards do, dip everything, then get a feat or something to help their spells count as 3rd level spells in time for Sublime Chord.

Who cares if you don't get 9ths. 8ths are plenty, and bards have juicy spells at 4 5 and 6, especially if you persist them.

[doc225]

Well... Vow of poverty is out. I asked, he said no.

He is willing to allow the ability scores for every 4 levels. The character just can't benefit from spells or items to boost abilities. The character will also be immune to ability drain or damage, so that's a good trade-off.

The party is made of of folks who aren't really into optimizing their characters. The barbar would probably be closest to being an optimized character, but I still think he has made some sub-optimal choices. We also have an archery ranger with tracking/bounty hunter motivations (6th level with a survival modifier in the 20's.) and a sorceror who is very inexperienced and has made some less than useful spell choices. I'm really not worried about being "underpowered" in this group. I'm thinking, knowing where the abilities of the party lie, that I might multiclass for things that use as many ability scores as possible. I was thinking monk/pally for that reason.

[Bloodgruve]

So, 18's in everything allows you to be 'good' at everything so you should take a class that wants you to do everything..

Factotum;
You're good in combat, facing, Spell DC's, turning/healing and mostly skills. Put 1 rank in everything, you can add INT to any physical skill and you're level once per day. This class wants to do everything good at least once per day and you'd have the stats to support that very well. Get yourself some Font of Inspiratins, Martial Weapons and Power Attack, Leap and Knowledge Devotion and you're good to go. Throw in a couple levels of Warblade or Swordsage for more melee options.

Binder wants to do everything also, it could make good use of the high stats.

Blood~

[BRC]

So, 18's in everything allows you to be 'good' at everything so you should take a class that wants you to do everything..

Factotum;
You're good in combat, facing, Spell DC's, turning/healing and mostly skills. Put 1 rank in everything, you can add INT to any physical skill and you're level once per day. This class wants to do everything good at least once per day and you'd have the stats to support that very well. Get yourself some Font of Inspiratins, Martial Weapons and Power Attack and Knowledge Devotion and you're good to go.

Binder wants to do everything also, it could make good use of the high stats.

Blood~

Factotum is all about running everything off your INT score, it seems like a waste to have all-18's and only use one of them.

If you're not worried about being underpowered, I'd say this is a good opportunity to play a Monk.

[Bloodgruve]

Factotum is all about running everything off your INT score, it seems like a waste to have all-18's and only use one of them.

If you're not worried about being underpowered, I'd say this is a good opportunity to play a Monk.

I'll have to disagree with you here. Int is a great bonus to Factotum but it does not make it SAD if you want to do more than skill monkey. A lot of the class abilities help you add your Int+ to different areas but these are temporary other than Brains over Brawn. Run out of inspiration and your Int+ doesn't do much for you. Factotum can be very effective on a lot of levels if built right and 18's across the board will give you an extremely versatile character.

Blood~

[Oscredwin]

Factotum is Int on top of whatever was there before. Brains over Brawn adds into on top of Str and Dex.

[Gwendol]

18 in all abilities doesn't help the monk to flurry other than on full attacks anyway. The other suggestions presented will likely offer you and your party so much more.

[doc225]

I just found the rogue variant in UA that allows me to swap out Sneak Attack for the fighter bonus list (including specialization, I asked the DM) This variant, coupled with the able learner feat would make this character the skill and feat machine. take on level of monk with that, maybe, or just go ahead and purchase armor. I like the monk idea because I won't ever have to worry about ACP on my skills, but mithril chain shirt and darkwood shield fix that anyway....

this is harder than I thought it would be..LOL

[Ingus]

Fluff wise, Monk would be an exceptional choice (the sage which reached perfection of body and soul) but party wise I would go bard for buff + healing or Factotum + Chameleon, eventually for skillmonkery and fun.

UA rogue is fun too, but it lacks glass cannon-ery

[mootoall]

Hmm, you know what would be interesting? Go to the X stat to Y bonus thread, and just do as many of those as possible. You might eventually have three stats to a bonus at some point, and when that means, say, a +12 per level to HP, it might not be bad.

[doc225]

I'm having trouble finding that thread. Search isn't pulling it up for me. Could you maybe link that thread?

I think I am progressing on the character of this guy, even though I am having trouble with the build... He is the guy that just had that natural ability in everything. In modern times, he'd be the guy with straight A's, captain of the football team, baseball team, and basketball team, prom king, lead in the play, hangs out with everyone, keeps people from bullying, say no to drugs, and all that. He's the guy that all the guys want to be like and all the girls want to be with. Sure, there is a brute lineman on the football team that is stronger than him, but doesn't really have much else going for him (the barbar), but he is competent in pretty much anything he does. I'm not really into playing casters, which I know is seen as a gimp, but it's just how I roll. I also think swapping out sneak attack for extra feats makes perfect sense for that style of character. He's not a sneak around for extra damage guy, he's a "put in the time and learn the techniques to beat your opponent straight up" kinda guy. I would probably play him NG, as someone who just wants to do what is right, and law/chaos doesn't matter much to him.

[2xMachina]

It's the first google result for X stat to Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732)

[Douglas]

It's also in the Notable Threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124685) list.

[doc225]

I believe I am going to go with the UA rogue variant of swapping sneak attack for fighter's bonus feats. I just think it fits my idea for the character better. Thanks to everyone for the help.