[PF] Best combat maneuver class

[Mayito]

I know there was a thread about this before but I can't seem to find it. I really enjoy the idea of playing a character that dishes out combat maneuvers left and right and I wanted the playgrounds opinion on which class is the best. Not just to get high bonuses but also getting several attacks. Even though they aren't optimized I have a soft spot for monks and panther style seems great for getting several maneuvers in while staying mobile and decent bonuses. I have heard that an oracle of battle can have insane bonuses on maneuvers but even though they can trip a giant they only get a couple attacks. So what other classes are good, or other combos?

[grarrrg]

Some classes/archetypes/PrC's that I know without doing lots of researching...

Lore Warden (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/lore-warden) Fighter, +2 CMB at level 3

Maneuver Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/maneuver-master) Monk has LOTS of maneuver bonuses throughout, notably they count as having Full Bab for any maneuvers, and starting at level 1, they can 'Flurry', but instead of an extra attack, they can make an extra maneuver (at a -2 penalty). And can select Improved [maneuver] and Greater [maneuver] Feats as their bonuses.

Battle Mystery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/battle) Oracle is NOT a good choice for a maneuver focused build. They choose ONE maneuver, and they count as having Full Bab, and get the Improved/Greater matching feats at levels 7 & 11. Monk is strictly better for a Maneuver build.

Low Templar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/low-templar) PrC gets +2 CMB at level 3. Also gains +1d6 Sneak Attack

And lastly, this just came out, but the Underfoot Adept (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/halfling/underfoot-adept-monk-halfling) Monk archetype (Halfling-ONLY). It can probably stack with Maneuver Master (minor RAW conflict), but here's the fun part:

At 4th level, and every four levels thereafter, he acts as if he is one size larger for the purposes of determining the maximum size of creatures he can trip and when determining his CMB and CMD for purposes of a trip combat maneuver.
Level 1 Small can trip Medium, -1
Level 4 Medium can trip Large, +0
Level 8 Large can trip Huge, +1
Level 12 Huge can trip Gargantuan, +2
Level 16 Gargantuan can trip Colossal, +4
Level 20 Colossal can trip Colossal+, +8
For even MORE fun, have someone cast Enlarge Person on your Halfling!

[Blyte]

The "maneuver master" monk is the only one that can dish them out "left and right" since they get flurry of maneuvers, allowing them to do multiples in a round.

If you want to focus on overrun, the barbarian is the only other class as far as i know that can do multiple overruns in a single round. (from my experience it was a blast.. especially when you get winged boots and a cloak of the manta-ray making you an ATV overrun machine)

Also barbarians get strength surge and auspicious mark, rage powers, which really bring a lot to the table for maneuver success.

The problem with maneuvers is in order to make them really effective, you need to invest 2-3 (or more) feats into them, making it difficult to have an effective character who does a variety of maneuvers well. (unless you want to play a human fighter/monk and soak up the bonus feats).. but even then the redundance of having multiple "greater X" maneuvers takes away from your potency in other areas. It's what you trade for variety I suppose.

...

edit - races should not be overlooked when it comes to maneuvers as well.

for instance dwarves have an alternative called "relentless" which can give them +2 to overruns and bullrushes. there are probably more examples elsewhere, but this was a tempting option for an overrun barbarian [coupled with "rock stepper" (easy terrain negotiation for "ground breaker") and "stubborn" (more great barbarian will saves)] .. but I digress

incidentally, barbarians make amazing sunderers (but that is one of the less sexy maneuvers)

[grarrrg]

I almost forgot...

Some levels of Barbarian + Raging Throw (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/raging-throw) feat can REALLY help if you like Bull Rushes.

While Raging, you can spend 1 round of Rage to add your CON mod to a Bull Rush attempt. If you Bull Rush your target into another creature, or a wall, it takes damage equal to your STR + CON. And keep in mind you are Raging while doing this, so extra bonus!

Granted, since you are spending at least 2 rounds of Rage every turn, it would require a sizable investment in Barbarian levels.

[Mayito]

I was looking at the underfoot adept and if it is allowed to combine with maneuver master then that would be wonderful for one of my character ideas. As for barbarian I was thinking about taking the feats to do panther style to do unarmed maneuvers while moving then beast totem to lay down the damage at the end but it is a heavy investment of feats for an ability that I can only use unarmed strikes for. It does bring up a point I saw in another thread though, if I already drew the AoO then I don't care about drawing another from not having the right feat so maybe I need some clarification on this combination of rules, if I provoke an AoO from moving through a threatened square, attack first with panther parry, replace my attack with a combat maneuver which provokes another AoO, if they only have one AoO does it now come before my maneuver or after?

[Doorhandle]

Also, If you combine raging throw with shield-bash and related feats, you could dual-wield shields and bull-rush (thus getting bonus damage) with every attack: although you would need abnormally high attack bonus to really make it work, as the bashing-shield feat means that you use attack bonus instead of C.M.B

edit:Clerics of strength could also have a good time of it, as they receive similar bonus as the barbarian, and have a monopoly of size-increasing and strength-increasing buffs.

[grarrrg]

I was looking at the underfoot adept and if it is allowed to combine with maneuver master then that would be wonderful for one of my character ideas.

As I said before, the conflict is very minor, but still technically against RAW.

Underfoot Adept trades away its first level bonus feat.

Maneuver Master has additional options for its bonus feats.

So unless your DM is a total jerk, he should allow it.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

the go to maneuver master on the paizo boards is a Monk (Master of Many Styles) 2, Lore Warden X.

[Doorhandle]

Particularly as flurry-of-blows stacks with B.A.B and not class level, so it's logical that so would flurry of maneuvers.

Barbarians are still the kings of sunders and overrunning though, and the tetori monk is basically the best grappler ever. EVER.

[Corlindale]

A Telekinesis-focused arcane caster could be an alternative choice, too. By optimizing the CL of Telekinesis you are essentially optimizing all of the maneouvers the spell can dish out - and as an extra bonus you can perform them from 800+ feet away if necessary.
The Improved/Greater line of maneouver feats should also work with Telekinesis, if you can spare feats for some of them.

The main issue with TL is that you can only do 1 maneouver per round, at least until you get to quicken it at level 15 (w/ Spell Perfection - which will incidentally also double whatever bonuses you might have from any improved [combat maneouver] feats).

[Novawurmson]

For raw Grappling power, you can't beat a Tetori Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/tetori).

[Mayito]

I love the tetori monk and its ability to continue making grappling effective even into the high levels. The underfoot adept looks like alot of fun if not optimized. Even more fun since its compatible with both the drunken master and the sensei AT THE SAME TIME! So my drunken halfling is lecturing his companions while staggering up and tripping a colossal dragon with his 5 strength. Sadly it seems that it isn't allowed in society play :-( advance race guide is currently taboo or am I mistaken?

[GreenZ]

The allowed resources for Pathfinder Society was updated just recently to include things from Advanced Races.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/about/additionalResources

It seems that Underfoot Adept + Sensei + Drunken Master is usable.

[grarrrg]

The allowed resources for Pathfinder Society was updated just recently to include things from Advanced Races.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/about/additionalResources

It seems that Underfoot Adept + Sensei + Drunken Master is usable.

... I just realized that Sensei + Drunken Master is a viable combination...


Young Grasshopper "Master, what is the secret to enlightenment?"
Old Master "Booze. Lotsa booze"

[Mayito]

GREENS THANK YOU SO MUCH!!! Time to register my halfling underfoot drunken sensei:smallbiggrin:

[Rickshaw]

panther style seems great for getting several maneuvers in while staying mobile and decent bonuses.

you can replace attacks of opportunity with maneuvers?

[Mayito]

As far as I know you treat an attack of opportunity like any other melee strike and so you can use the AoO with any maneuver that you can use in place of a melee strike. I am away from my books so I can't quote but it makes sense to me and my GM always played that way, made his enemy trip monkeys a pain.

[Blyte]

Since Panther Style eventually lets you resolve your AoO before the primary attackers AoO, a Bull Rusher would be interesting since you can send them flying away from you, the moment they thought about attacking you.

Couple that bull rusher build with the Barbarian's rage power "Come and Get Me" which let's you get an AoO, which resolves first, on anyone who attacks you, and you are sending them flying when it's not even your turn.

Now there is a problem: Bull Rush is usually a standard action.

Get the feat "Quick Bullrush" and the rage power "Knockback" - allowing you to sub in 2 bull rushes for attacks per round. (you save them for the monsters with reach, so you can send them flying) The monsters without reach you use the feat "pushing assault" which lets you smack them for your AoO and instead of doing power attack damage, you push them 5 feat (10 on a crit I believe).


Human Barbarian 12 / Martial Artist 1

Feats:
1 Power Attack
1 Combat Reflexes
3 Pushing Assault
5 Improved Bullrush
7 Panther Style I (monk bonus feat)
7 Greater Bull Rush
9 Quick Bull Rush
11 Panther II
13 Panther III

Rage Powers:
2 Strength Surge
4 Reckless Abandon
6 Knock Back
8 Quick Reflexes
12 Come and Get Me

[StreamOfTheSky]

The best combat maneuver class is Synthesist Summoner.

Combat Maneuvers, as in 3E, require size (especially to be able to attempt it against a creature of size X to begin with!), strength, and reach to work best. The eidolon suit provides you with ALL of that in spades, and you can self-buff with enlarge person (yes, it's legal -- share spells) for more. And you can get a ton of attacks. And you can use evolutions to attach Grab, Push, and so forth to those attacks. And you can get pounce right from level 1 (though doing so, ie "being a quadruped", will ultimately cost you 5 ft of reach and 2 points of strength over being bipedal).

Synthesist is the best option for combat maneuvers, definitely. By the time you hit Huge eidolon (gargantuan w/ enlarge person), swinging a strength in the mid 40's is trivially easy, and the reach, oh man, the reach!

[Blyte]

I have yet to fight a monster in pathfinder larger than huge (I know they exist).. but I wouldn't discount any class due to size, when it's so easy to get Large with an enlarge person (potions, party buff, class/archetype powers, permanency, etc..) large can effect huge.. and huge and below make up 99% of the monsters in the game.

a large, full bab, high strength, raging barb will have an equal or better CMB than a summoner of their level (I didn't bother to do the math, but I would imagine it's on the better side), and a much better potential CMB when they actually use their optionals (strength surge/auspicious mark/raging throw/etc.. and in the upper levels they are swimming in rage with the ability to rage cycle)

[Psyren]

Old Master: "Boozh. Lotsa boozh"

FTFY :smallbiggrin:

Underfoot Halfling looks nice at first glance, but I recall a post in the ARG thread that pointed it out to be a trap. I'm leaning in that direction myself.

[Mayito]

yes, i looked further into the underfoot adept and it could be lots of fun but still sub optimal, combining with the other archtypes increase its one trick pony on a trick that becomes useless on a majority of monsters at high level. but just the thought of a small halfling tripping a collosal dragon with relative ease is hilarious

[Metahuman1]

Don't suppose there's a way to use it in a maneuver focused monk build centered on Buffing/Supporting Allies, Debuffing/repositioning Enemy's that would keep the aforementioned halfling monk in a T3 or so range?

Probably not, but I keep hearing Pathfinder monk is a vast improvement over 3.5 D&D monk, and the aforementioned combo actually sounds pretty cool to play. Kick all the Melee butt you want and don't worry about pissing off the rest of the party's Melee cause there still getting to kill stuff! :smallcool:

[GreenZ]

Don't suppose there's a way to use it in a maneuver focused monk build centered on Buffing/Supporting Allies, Debuffing/repositioning Enemy's that would keep the aforementioned halfling monk in a T3 or so range?

Probably not, but I keep hearing Pathfinder monk is a vast improvement over 3.5 D&D monk, and the aforementioned combo actually sounds pretty cool to play. Kick all the Melee butt you want and don't worry about pissing off the rest of the party's Melee cause there still getting to kill stuff! :smallcool:

I'm not sure it would be tier 3 but there are some pretty wicked things you can buff your allies with as a Sensei/Qinggong Monk.

Sensei can give their 'Ki abilities' to allies within 30 feet instead of themselves, 1 person at 6th level and all allies within 30 feet at 12th. Along with Qinggong monk giving you some very special Ki abilities you can allow allies to cast Scorching Ray for 1 round for 2 Ki, allow everyone to turn into a Gaseous Form for 1 Ki, improve their AC with Barkskin for 1 Ki, or even give all your allies a Battlemind Link for 4 Ki (which they can also share with you).

In addition you gain bardic performance using Wisdom instead of Charisma for uses/day, you use Wisdom on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks instead of Dexterity or Strength, and can use a Ki to give allies (including yourself) evasion, fast movement, high jump, purity of body, slow fall, diamond body, diamond soul, or improved evasion as a Swift action even if you can't normally use them yourself due to trading them away for Qinggong Monk stuff!