Rogue/Swordsage Build Help, pleeeeaaase!

[Legendairy]

Hey playground it has been a while since I have posted. I am starting a new campaign as a player this time (thanks be to someone). I want a skill monkeyish build we are starting at 4th level and may be going to 20th. I was thinking of a Rogue 4-Swordsage 1-Rogue 2-Swordsage 1 to net the obvious tricks like assassins stance and island of blades as well as some of the juicy maneuvers. The campaign will be mid or low OP (I want some decent OP cause talks of a cleric and druid players are rolling about).

Okay, here is what I am working with 18-17-15-15-14-14 He will be a Dark creature Human, starting level 4 but may be higher (so higher builds welcome as well) I would like a higher CHA if at all possible and a huge UMD. I have every book available but no dragon mags, I would like a nice sneak attack and would like to see any of the three done (Melee single weapon, Missile or TWF) Also what feats like Craven and the like.

Thank you all in advance, again I do not need the kill everything in one shot type more the skill monkey who can hurt you if the need arises and possibly party face.

[Legendairy]

Either my Idea is solid, the forums no longer do build help, it is the time of day that responses take a while. In others words I am effectively bumping my post.

[Waker]

I understand that you want to play a skill monkey role, but why not take more levels of Swordsage in place of Rogue? Something more on a 1:1 basis to get an increased number of stances and maneuvers. The usual advice is to take Penetrating Strike from Dungeonscape.
Statwise I would go
Str 14
Dex 15
Con 16 (15 +1 attribute)
Int 14
Wis 18
Cha 17

You'll have plenty of skill points from the classes, so you can afford to put the 14 in Intelligence. You specified you wanted high charisma, but Wisdom is going to help by giving you a better Will sv as well as increasing your AC.

[Legendairy]

The reason is I want more of a rogue feel, more rogue abilities the maneuvers are great but not needed with this character. Thank you for the advice tho, and if anyone else has any ideas keep them coming please!!!

[VGLordR2]

If you want to easily boost your Sneak Attack, take a two-level dip in Generic Expert and a one-level dip in Generic Warrior. Use their bonus feats on the sneak attack feats. This nets +9d6 sneak attack damage from a three-level dip. Link to the Generic Classes (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/UA:Generic_Classes).

[Legendairy]

If you want to easily boost your Sneak Attack, take a two-level dip in Generic Expert and a one-level dip in Generic Warrior. Use their bonus feats on the sneak attack feats. This nets +9d6 sneak attack damage from a three-level dip. Link to the Generic Classes (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/UA:Generic_Classes).

That is pretty decent, I think the swordsage netting dex to damage as well as will to ac may be a bit more beneficial, while still giving a rogue feel.

[HunterColt22]

For maneuvers you will want at the minimum cloak of deception and child of shadows. Cloak of deception gives you invisibility at will for one round, and child of shadows gives you a constant 20% miss chance on you if you move at least 10ft per round, which is always helpful. Another excellent choice is Shadow Stride, teleport at will all day long outside of battle at fifty feet a pop, yes please.

While It is normally better to do the progression of the class 1 to 1 he doesn't have to. Remember all of your other classes count for half towards your total IL. For instance if you have a Rogue 8/ Swordsage 4 your IL is 8 giving you access to level 3 maneuvers if I am remembering the table right, I dont have it in front of me at the moment.

Also dex to damage is only in a shadow hand stance using that disciplines chosen weapons.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Dark Creature Human*
1. Unarmed Swordsage 1, Shadow Blade, Adaptive Style, Discipline Focus (Desert Wind), Improved Unarmed Strike
2. Swashbuckler 1, Weapon Finesse
3. Feat Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) 1, TWF, Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm)
4. Swashbuckler 2
5. Swashbuckler 3
6. Feat Rogue 2, Combat Reflexes, Lightning Maces (CW)
7. Feat Rogue 3
8. Unarmed Swordsage 2
9. Feat Rogue 4, Daring Outlaw (CS), ITWF
10. Feat Rogue 5
11. Feat Rogue 6, Improved Critical: Light Mace
12. Feat Rogue 7, Craven (CoR)
13. Feat Rogue 8, Power Attack
14. Feat Rogue 9
15. Unarmed Swordsage 3, GTWF, Dancing Mongoose maneuver
16. Feat Rogue 10, Roundabout Kick (CW)
17. Feat Rogue 11
18. Feat Rogue 12, Feat, Fighter Feat
19. Feat Rogue 13
20. Feat Rogue 14, Fighter Feat

*You can buy off that level adjustment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) as soon as you gain your 3rd class level. At that level you'll get Item Familiar and immediately gain a 10% bonus to your current and all future XP, so you'll have at least 6,000 xp which goes up to 6,600. Buying off a +1 LA at 3rd level costs 3,000 xp, so you'll start out with 3,600 xp (higher if you're starting with more than the minimum for ECL 4) and no level adjustment. Being lower level than the rest of the party you'll gain more xp per encounter, plus you'll be getting a 10% to everything you gain so you should catch up fairly quickly.

Get Assassin's Stance at Swordsage 2, and Daring Outlaw will give you the sneak attack of a Rogue of your Rogue + Swashbuckler levels. The Feat Rogue is still a Rogue, just with an alternate class feature.

Get two Masterwork Light Maces, and as quickly as possible you should pick up two +1 Aptitude (ToB) Kukris. Get them upgraded to weapons of Subtlety (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#swordofSubtlety), which should add +20,000 gp to their total item value. Aptitude will allow you to use them with any feat that names a specific weapon as though they were that specific weapon, so Weapon Focus: Light Mace, Improved Critical: Light Mace, Roundabout Kick, and Lightning Maces will all apply to their use, and you can use one of them for an attack that would otherwise have to be made with a specific type of weapon. Every time you score a critical hit, you gain two more attacks (Lightning Maces on the threat, Roundabout Kick if it's a confirmed crit).

Your last few feats can be pretty much anything you want, assuming you get to that level. You may want to pick up Martial Study twice for Martial Stance: Aura of Chaos at 20th. You could pick up some Combat Form feats from PH2. Maybe throw in generally useful feats like Defensive Sweep (PH2), Travel Devotion, Quick Recovery (LoM), Improved Initiative, Improved Toughness (CW), Martial Study: Shadow Stride and/or Iron Heart Surge, etc.

An Item Familiar is an intelligent item, and intelligent items are treated as constructs and thus creatures. That means it cannot be disjoined, dispelling won't disable its magic properties, and it continues to function in an antimagic and dead magic area. If it's a worn item you can wear something over it so opponents will never have line of sight or line of effect to it, so it can never be targeted by a sunder or slight of hand attempt. You should invest as much into it as possible, meaning every skill point you get from 4th level on should be invested for a significant return. There's no drawback to investing XP into it. You can even give it activated abilities that require an action to use, and it can activate its own abilities every round. You can even pick a special purpose and dedicated power for one of its special abilities as you level up, and pay for an at-will 10d6 Lightning Bolt or Fireball which it can spam every round independent of your own actions, though you would need to uncover it for it to be able to do that.

For example, it can start as a Ring of Protection +1 for which you pay the full price of 2,000 gp. You can upgrade it yourself to a Ring of Invisibility with a +1 Deflection bonus (MIC p234) as though you possessed Forge Ring, as long as you have someone casting Invisibility for you on each day of crafting or UMD as scroll of it. That will cost you 10,000 gp and 800 xp, and it will take 20 days to complete. It can then activate its own Invisibility effect on you every round at the end of your turn, so you're always invisible during your opponents' turns. Later on add Freedom of Movement to it, which increases the Invisibility effect's cost by 50% (DMG p282 sidebar), so it should cost you a total of 25,000 gp and 2,000 xp, and take 50 days to complete plus someone contributing Freedom of Movement or UMD a scroll. You can also add a dedicated power to it yourself for normal crafting costs, so a 60,000 gp ability would cost you 30,000 gp and 2400 xp. Note that the 10% xp bonus you get from it will more than make up for any crafting costs of upgrading it.

[gallagher]

low-to-mid op game with awesome stats, and you want to be more of a skill monkey and party face?

you should instead be a bard. You can choose your feats to make you more combat-ready if you want, take bardic knack ACF, and use diplomacy and bluffing to get your way around obstacles.

[Darrin]

If you want to easily boost your Sneak Attack, take a two-level dip in Generic Expert and a one-level dip in Generic Warrior. Use their bonus feats on the sneak attack feats. This nets +9d6 sneak attack damage from a three-level dip. Link to the Generic Classes (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/UA:Generic_Classes).

Generic Classes:

"For the purposes of these classes, the following class features can be selected in place of bonus feats (unless noted, each may only be selected once)." Emphasis added.

If you want to start off Swordsage with some sneak attack... I'd consider Rogue 3/Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Swordsage 16. Take the Penetrating Strike ACF, Craven, Staggering Strike, and then UMD hunter's eye if you need more.

[Snowbluff]

While I am suggesting Stagerring Strike, I'll suggest Staggering Strike. Chop an action of an enemy with SA? With no die cost? Take it!

EDIT: Also, pick up some weapon crystals from MIC to increase the number of creature types you can SA.

[Legendairy]

Yeah I should be golden on Equipment the weapon crystals and I have a love affair. Staggering strike is promising to say the least. To clarify I want a rogue with some decent swordsage goodies not a swordsage with rogue goodies, trust me the other players are already complaining about the Dark Template and a couple levels in swordsage. They also cried when I played a Dual wand wielding Artificer who built all his and all their gear. Can't please everyone I guess. I am still kinda at a loss for feats, thinking: Craven, staggering strike, TWF, Improved init, and the TOB one that helps me refresh maneuvers I think.

As always thank you all for your help.

[Snowbluff]

Yeah I should be golden on Equipment the weapon crystals and I have a love affair. Staggering strike is promising to say the least. To clarify I want a rogue with some decent swordsage goodies not a swordsage with rogue goodies, trust me the other players are already complaining about the Dark Template and a couple levels in swordsage. They also cried when I played a Dual wand wielding Artificer who built all his and all their gear. Can't please everyone I guess. I am still kinda at a loss for feats, thinking: Craven, staggering strike, TWF, Improved init, and the TOB one that helps me refresh maneuvers I think.

As always thank you all for your help.

Feats? Well, Swordsage feats would actually help a lot. I know you want to be more Rougy but Sudden Recovery (Swift Action to recover 1 mave/day) and Adaptive Style (Might be the feat you're thinking of) can net you a lot more mileage out of your dip.

Grabbing some SKill-based feats would be a good idea as well. Jack of All Trades is usually a sound option to give you a little more use out of combat.

Also, try and focus on ways to get more SA out. Neraphim Charge, Magical Training (Requires Human?) + Obtain Familar + Improved Familiar(Flanks, can fight, and has your Skills!), Wild Cohort (Easy flanking option), etc.

As for TWF, pick up Gloves of the Balance Hand, which will save you a slot.

[Person_Man]

If you're taking Rogue levels for the Skills (or more specifically, for UMD, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Bluff, or Diplomacy, since the Swordsage already gets all of the other good Skills by default) then at most you need 1 or 2 levels of Rogue. It's also important to know which Skill(s) you want and what ECL you're playing at, because most Skills can be duplicated or replaced by magic items at mid-high levels, which means you could still duplicate everything a Rogue could do with a pure Swordsage.

If you're taking Rogue levels to increase your damage output via Sneak Attack, then you're making a terrible mistake. Access to higher level maneuvers will almost always produce a higher damage output (and additional special effects) compared to more Sneak Attack dice. The exception to this is if you're focusing on getting lots of attacks (Multiweapon Fighting, natural weapons, AoO combo, etc) with pure Rogue 16ish with just a few of levels of Swordsage tacked on at the end.

And you can buy the Dark template with an affordable magic item, which is better then Level Adjustment. Collar of Umbral Metamophosis, Tome of Magic, pg 156.

As an off topic suggestion, you might want to look at the Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b). It has a very Rogue-y feel to it, but also gets plenty of other cool abilities and stuff to do (especially if you know how to optimize psionics), without the need for templates or multi-classing.

[VGLordR2]

Generic Classes:

"For the purposes of these classes, the following class features can be selected in place of bonus feats (unless noted, each may only be selected once)." Emphasis added.



There are actually three different feats: Sneak Attack, Improved Sneak Attack, and Greater Sneak Attack. They add +2d6, +3d6, and +4d6 respectively.

[Legendairy]

With how our DM operates it will be a low magic game, he initially said starting ecl was 4 now he is saying significantly higher. The group consists of a Barbarian wood elf a Half dragon Monk (gag I know) and possibly a cleric at the moment. OP is not a huge issue and he wont allow many swordsage levels only a few if I take any. The psionic rogue may be a nice option but im not psionic savvy and he (the DM) hates psions so I dunno if it will fly or not.

My story is that he comes from the same mortal bloodline as mask and the womb that was imbued with Shar's divinity later birthed a female and so it went for generations until this male in the family line so mask has taken special interest in him. IE Swordsage levels will be treated like abilities he can do cause of his bloodline. There is a lot more to it, but that is a rough draft.

I want to be a decent damage dealing rogue/party face without losing out on the roguey juiceness.

[Randomguy]

I once made a rogue/swordsage build for a contest that went something like Rogue 8/Swordsage 2/Rogue 8/Swordsage 2. Staggering the swordsage levels that way gave me access to higher level maneuvers. You might want to change things around a bit, though, to get the swordsage levels earlier.

There are quite a few rogue guides out there that talk about swordsage dips that you should probably look at.

[Dusto]

There are actually three different feats: Sneak Attack, Improved Sneak Attack, and Greater Sneak Attack. They add +2d6, +3d6, and +4d6 respectively.

Which books are these found in?

[Dusto]

Which books are these found in?



Nevermind, found them. Generic classes have access to them.

[Legendairy]

So a few changes, its looking like level 8 to start should be fine with the dark human template as a free LA +1. Stats are the same still not high enough for my swordsage dips yet.

I was thinking of possibly taking shadow thief of amn prc from like 5th to 8th
and as I read I am confused about TWF is it a trap? or is it worth it I am completely lost? Should I just go dagger and buckler or some such?

I have been going through the guides and think I will need to boost my to hit in order to be effective but I am not sure and I do like the idea of more attacks with the TWF tree but it is a feat tax.

Help please! It has been years since I played a rogue and years since I built one everything I thought i knew has been erratta'ed away! lol