Amazon Race

[Morithias]

I'm looking for a race or template or something that seems "Amazon". You know, the strong warrior girl who can bend an iron lance with her bare hands.

I found the "Jungle" template in dragon 306, and it looks good, but I need a good base race.

I do NOT however want to use the Amazon from "the slayer's guide to amazons" cause 1. It's 3rd party, and 2. It's basically just a human with the feat chosen for you, and alertness is NOT a feat I need.

This girl is going to be a cavalry unit if that helps. Druid / Paladin + Kishi Charger ubermount type builds.

Thanks for all your help.

[Mando Knight]

Amazon is more of a social construct than a separate race.

[Morithias]

Amazon is more of a social construct than a separate race.

Are you telling me there are seven plus different elf races, and there isn't a single race that is "warrior woman" or something like that?

[Zale]

I would suggest Homebrew, but a cursory search reveals nothing.

[Mando Knight]

I never said I like the idea of fifty elven subraces. (Though the Drow do have a matriarchal society... albeit one that's evil and has a spider fetish)

Mechanically, I don't know what would distinguish a warrior woman race from any other race.

[Waker]

What aspect of the Amazon race did you want to emphasize? Knowing exactly what you want will make choosing the race a little easier.

[Urpriest]

If you just want sufficient Str at low LA, Water Orc would do the job.

[Morithias]

What aspect of the Amazon race did you want to emphasize? Knowing exactly what you want will make choosing the race a little easier.

Hmmm...well basically her backstory is that she's an amazon who left her race's territory to join the Stratos empire as commander of a cavalry unit. She's fairly good looking, strong...hmm.

She's basically an evil wonder woman. Left her amazon tribe to join the civil world and fell in love with all the 'modern' technology and magic and such.

And then when she needed a job she joined the Sisters of Battle, and having natural animal understanding found a horse animal companion grew up to be one of the most powerful horseriders.

She's basically suppose to be an evil mary sue. Beautiful, Strong, commander of an all female battle unit, and one of the deadliest fighters in the military.

[grarrrg]

Are you telling me there are seven plus different elf races, and there isn't a single race that is "warrior woman" or something like that?

There are actually around 20 different official Elf sub-races.
And if you want to get picky, there are 10 more Half-Elf sub-races.

You probably want a Human-type sub-race, in that case there are about 12.

Here's a link (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19546874/Master_Player_Race_List_Version_2.0)
To every LA-0 Player Race

I can't help you much with the flavor of each, but this should sort-of help point you in the right direction.

EDIT:

She's fairly good looking, strong...hmm.
...
Beautiful, Strong, commander of an all female battle unit, and one of the deadliest fighters in the military.

Translation: +STR, +CHA

[Alabenson]

Hmmm...well basically her backstory is that she's an amazon who left her race's territory to join the Stratos empire as commander of a cavalry unit. She's fairly good looking, strong...hmm.

She's basically an evil wonder woman. Left her amazon tribe to join the civil world and fell in love with all the 'modern' technology and magic and such.

And then when she needed a job she joined the Sisters of Battle, and having natural animal understanding found a horse animal companion grew up to be one of the most powerful horseriders.

She's basically suppose to be an evil mary sue. Beautiful, Strong, commander of an all female battle unit, and one of the deadliest fighters in the military.

Honestly, I'm not seeing anything here that would mandate anything other than human.
The Amazon archtype is primarily a social construct, which translates into fluff, while races are essentially just crunch with transmutable fluff tacked on.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Honestly, I'm not seeing anything here that would mandate anything other than human.

Agreed. It's like saying you need a race for barbarians in the frozen tundras that are strong in both mind and body, when all you need are level 1 humans with Endurance and Steadfast Determination.

There's a reason humans were made so versatile. It's so you don't have the fifty human subraces.

[tonberrian]

Right. There's nothing here that screams out to have a separate subrace for it. If you're really determined, you should apply a template. Draconic might work.

[Morithias]

Well thanks for all the help people! Shame nothing came up.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Jungle Wood Elf? Str and Dex bonuses, Favored Class Ranger if you care about those rules... The Con hit sucks though.

Desert Half-Orc doesn't have a Cha penalty and could be refluffed. So could Neanderthal.

There really aren't any races with +str and +cha without level adjustment.

My advice would be to just take Human and roleplay well.

[Morithias]

Jungle Wood Elf? Str and Dex bonuses, Favored Class Ranger if you care about those rules... The Con hit sucks though.

Desert Half-Orc doesn't have a Cha penalty and could be refluffed. So could Neanderthal.

There really aren't any races with +str and +cha without level adjustment.

My advice would be to just take Human and roleplay well.

I probably should have said this. We have it so Charisma and appearance are separate scores.

I'm thinking I'm going to use feral or something, and basically have her with a low charisma score and justify it as lack of subtly. Basically she's beautiful, but has the acting and subtly of Kristin Stewart due to you know, spending her development years in a society that lives in a primitive jungle area.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Orc of some sort is probably your best bet. It's a shame gnoll isn't such a great class, because (considering gender relations in actual hyenas) they seem like a perfect Amazon-esque race, in a way.

[HeadlessMermaid]

Honestly, I'm not seeing anything here that would mandate anything other than human.
The Amazon archtype is primarily a social construct, which translates into fluff, while races are essentially just crunch with transmutable fluff tacked on.
I agree, but why hasn't anyone thought of making up cultural templates? LA applies and everything.

Modest stat increases (+2, not +6...) make sense, since our way of life affects the development of our physical and mental abilities. Skill bonuses make perfect sense, too. And the odd Ex special ability, probably also skill-related (the Goliaths' ability to jump without running distance comes to mind) would be acceptable. The Amazons could have something Ride-related, such as no penalty for riding without a saddle. [I don't remember anything about Amazons riding bareback or not, I'm just saying.]

It's not standard practice, but if homebrew is on the table, maybe you could suggest it.

EDIT - I dare say there's a precedent, since many racial abilities have nothing to do with race per se. Take dwarves, who get stonecunning and deal extra damage to orcs. These are culture-derived abilities. There's nothing in a dwarf's physiology that justifies them. He doesn't have a weird sensory organ that picks up vibes from stone, or a body type oddly appropriate for fighting orcs. Weapon familiarities fall in the same category. And so on.

In short, while irregular, I think that a purely cultural template isn't far-fetched at all. :)

[Incorrect]

Goliath from Races of Stone.
You will be the biggest woman the army have ever seen.
No one is going to try to mess with a giant, barbaric woman riding a .... hmm, anything big ... Rhino!
Your weapons will be so freaking big that even the strongest guy have trouble using them.
They could easily be fluffed to be an amazon society.

They are LA+1 though, but I feel its worth it.

[Honest Tiefling]

I think you need a chat with your DM regarding what races might do this. I don't think that cultural constructs tend to show up in character building MOST of the time (Arcane Archer and the like aside...) because settings do different things with their races.

So again, ask your DM, through I'd say try to encourage him to make an amazonian Orc race by taking one orc subrace for the dudes and another for the females because an evil mary sue ultra-attractive orc seems pretty hilarious to me. Unless it is a serious concept, in which case I'd go with elf since if you need something, there's an elf for that. Barbarian? There's an elf for that. Sorcerer? There's an elf for that. Wizard? There's TWO elves for that.

[Mando Knight]

But, like I said before, the matriarchal elves are not only evil, they live underground and have a spider fetish.

[eggs]

Fantasy Flight's Giant Lore has an Amazon race, but it has enough racial hit dice to suck pretty badly.

Jotunbrud human sounds appropriate though.

[Ashtagon]

Mongoose's Conan RPG has about two dozen different human "races". I'm sure one of them fits the jungle warrior stereotype.

[Andorax]

One of my frustrations is when people look for a race/template combo that creates a particular concept for them, when the tools to do so are already present.

Put your good stats into physicals. Choose your 1st level and feats/skills according to your concept. It's not necessary to have a race/template combo uniquely suited to your idea to go with it...regular human will do just fine.

[Metahuman1]

Personally, I like the idea of taking Goliath and giving them a drop to some of there fluff based ability's, (Not the Str, Con, Powerful Build Stuff though.), and adding Something to what ever it is that boosts physical beauty in your game/setting. Then maybe a Cha penalty.



Or take human, give them either the half Minotuar Template or the Loth Touched Template with Jotuenbrod as an automatic extra bonus feat, and a boost to what ever effects looks. Depending on JUST how much you want to push the big and strong angle.

[Zonugal]

Metahuman1 touched on it but for +1 LA the Lolth-Touched template would be great if it under went some re-flavoring.

You could have something like this:

Amazon
+6 Strength, +6 Constitution
Medium: As Medium creatures, amazons have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Amazon base land speed is 30 feet.
1 extra feat at 1st level.
4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level.
+4 racial bonus on Hide & Move Silently checks.
Fearless: Amazon are immune any mundane & magical form of fear.
Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic).
Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multi-class amazon takes an experience point penalty, her highest-level class does not count.
Level Adjustment +1

[Morithias]

Personally, I like the idea of taking Goliath and giving them a drop to some of there fluff based ability's, (Not the Str, Con, Powerful Build Stuff though.), and adding Something to what ever it is that boosts physical beauty in your game/setting. Then maybe a Cha penalty.



Or take human, give them either the half Minotuar Template or the Loth Touched Template with Jotuenbrod as an automatic extra bonus feat, and a boost to what ever effects looks. Depending on JUST how much you want to push the big and strong angle.

All good ideas, one major problem with max/mining the race too much however is that later in the campaign we're going to be fighting a whole nation of them, and I don't feel like explaining to my fellow PCs that I talked the DM into giving all our enemies crazy stuff like that.

Thanks for all the suggestions though people. I'll find something in some splat book or 3rd party stuff to use. Push come to shove I'll just do the human thing.

[Metahuman1]

Ok, what if the DM just used them at a markedly lower level to the party to help off set the numbers advantage and level per level advantage?

[Ashtagon]

Metahuman1 touched on it but for +1 LA the Lolth-Touched template would be great if it under went some re-flavoring.

You could have something like this:

Amazon
+6 Strength, +6 Constitution
Medium: As Medium creatures, amazons have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Amazon base land speed is 30 feet.
1 extra feat at 1st level.
4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level.
+4 racial bonus on Hide & Move Silently checks.
Fearless: Amazon are immune any mundane & magical form of fear.
Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic).
Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multi-class amazon takes an experience point penalty, her highest-level class does not count.
Level Adjustment +1

I'd say that's worth quite a bit more than +1. It's the high end of +2, and I'd be hard-pressed to argue against it if someone called it +3.

[eggs]

I'd say that's worth quite a bit more than +1. It's the high end of +2, and I'd be hard-pressed to argue against it if someone called it +3.

It's a Lolth-Touched Human...

ETA:
Lolth-touched: LA+1
Human: LA+0
Filing off the serial number: LA+0

[Ashtagon]

It's a Lolth-Touched Human...

ETA:
Lolth-touched: LA+1
Human: LA+0
Filing off the serial number: LA+0

>implying the original template was in any way balanced

[The Dark Fiddler]

I'd say that's worth quite a bit more than +1. It's the high end of +2, and I'd be hard-pressed to argue against it if someone called it +3.

A +3 for +6 Str/+6 Con, immunity to fear, and +4 to move silently/hide? You're kidding, right?

I'll grant, it's a bit powerful for +1 LA, but I certainly wouldn't call it high +2.

[Ashtagon]

A +3 for +6 Str/+6 Con, immunity to fear, and +4 to move silently/hide? You're kidding, right?

I'll grant, it's a bit powerful for +1 LA, but I certainly wouldn't call it high +2.

That's on top of the already-generous open choice of favoured class, human skill bonus, and bonus feat.

I am of course assuming this was written to be a race and not a template. The skill bonus doesn't allow it to make mathematical sense as a template.

[Tanngrisnir]

That's on top of the already-generous open choice of favoured class, human skill bonus, and bonus feat.

I am of course assuming this was written to be a race and not a template. The skill bonus doesn't allow it to make mathematical sense as a template.

It's the Lolth-touched template from Monster Manual IV, so it wasn't written to be a race. The other poster has just applied the template to a human to create an Amazon.

[Kazyan]

I'm pretty sure Lolth-touched's LA was migitated because of the Chaotic Evil requirement. It's not just fluff; it's a roleplaying challenge. If you can't find a way to get along with the Paladin, you don't get to have an otherwise unbalanced template.

[Zonugal]

Beyond arguing the balance of such a template, I think it serves well to create an "Amazon warrior woman" type of character.

Against your standard Orc they are strong & durable without being oppressively powerful.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Against your standard Orc they are strong & durable without being oppressively powerful.

Um, against an Orc, they get +2 Strength, and if you're being reeeeally generous and using Water Orc, +4 Constitution. Without any mental stat penalties. On top of this, they are immune to fear, have some good skill bonuses, and have a first level bonus feat.

Now, compare it to Goliath, which is thought to be a bit powerful for LA +1. In exchange for powerful build and a couple minor mountain bonuses, they have good skill bonuses, +2 Strength, +4 Constitution, no ability penalties, immunity to fear, and a bonus feat. Yeah, it's too strong.

[Zale]

Um, against an Orc, they get +2 Strength, and if you're being reeeeally generous and using Water Orc, +4 Constitution. Without any mental stat penalties. On top of this, they are immune to fear, have some good skill bonuses, and have a first level bonus feat.

Now, compare it to Goliath, which is thought to be a bit powerful for LA +1. In exchange for powerful build and a couple minor mountain bonuses, they have good skill bonuses, +2 Strength, +4 Constitution, no ability penalties, immunity to fear, and a bonus feat. Yeah, it's too strong.

Sums up my thoughts exactly.

[Zonugal]

Um, against an Orc, they get +2 Strength, and if you're being reeeeally generous and using Water Orc, +4 Constitution. Without any mental stat penalties. On top of this, they are immune to fear, have some good skill bonuses, and have a first level bonus feat.

Now, compare it to Goliath, which is thought to be a bit powerful for LA +1. In exchange for powerful build and a couple minor mountain bonuses, they have good skill bonuses, +2 Strength, +4 Constitution, no ability penalties, immunity to fear, and a bonus feat. Yeah, it's too strong.

I guess I just don't view such bonuses and abilities as too powerful as they're still in the domain of warriors.

The stat bonuses are great but I have never thought too much on them as a huge talent. The immunity to fear is nice but isn't the greatest immunity one can possess and the skill bonuses are only going to be prevalent for 2 classes out of Core.

So the template is strong and when placed on Human is even stronger, but beyond assigning any rules perspective to it (is it +1 LA or +2 LA) I think it matches up well with the standard idea of an Amazon race.

[Eldariel]

Now, compare it to Goliath, which is thought to be a bit powerful for LA +1. In exchange for powerful build and a couple minor mountain bonuses, they have good skill bonuses, +2 Strength, +4 Constitution, no ability penalties, immunity to fear, and a bonus feat. Yeah, it's too strong.

Goliath is a bit powerful for +1 LA? Hardly; I'd rather say Goliath is barely strong enough to be worth +1; a liked race since it's the most reasonably available pseudo-large race in the game. It could have an extra +4 stats without really breaking anything. I'm not arguing Feral is balanced or anything but I'd say Goliath shouldn't necessarily be used as the be-all end-all balancing stick for +1. Also, Powerful Build and Mountain Rage are pretty much the reasons to go Goliath, so losing out on those is fairly massive.