Justice League vs. The Plutonian (Irredeemable)

[Leliel]

So, on one side of the equation, you have the Justice League. If you do not know who these fellows are, I feel very sorry for you. But it's the entire Justice League. They'll need the manpower.

On the other side, we have the Plutonian, who for the unversed, is basically what would happen if Lex Luthor's mental image of Superman was actually overestimating his moral compass, and on a sociopathic temper tantrum, and with no weaknesses. And he doesn't wear a cape anymore, so no hangman's noose.

Oh yeah, and can't forget the fact that he (spoilers):

essentially is as strong as he thinks he is, since his race's power is to subconsciously warp reality.

So, who wins?

Also, keep in mind that with the way his power works, he can be mentally manipulated into losing some of it. This doesn't happen in Irredeemable, but I need to give the League something of a chance.

[DigoDragon]

Well on the flip side, I know who loses-- a few hundred square miles of several large cities when the fights go down :smallbiggrin:

Is the Plutonian affected by psionic/mind powers? If so I think that would be how the Justice League wins.

[Leliel]

Well on the flip side, I know who loses-- a few hundred square miles of several large cities when the fights go down :smallbiggrin:

Is the Plutonian affected by psionic/mind powers? If so I think that would be how the Justice League wins.

We don't know, but I'd say he could, if he thinks he could be. We don't see evidence to the contrary.

[Devonix]

Saying the Entire Justice league is kind of difficult It would be easier if you picked a specific team.

Some JLA teams are more powerful than others, but assuming the average royal seven pantheon team

Batman Superman Wonderwoman Aquaman Green Lantern Flash and Martian Manhunter

I'd give it to the JLA and thats not even including some of the more powerful JLA teams.

[Aotrs Commander]

From a brief reading from wiki, it says a telepath once read his mind, so I don't think there's any reason he would be especially resistant.

Though I'm not sure of how powerful powerful telepaths in DC are (I know MM and Miss Martian are pretty powerful, but how that stands against say, the many, many mutant telepaths in X-Men or something, I dunno.)

[Devonix]

From a brief reading from wiki, it says a telepath once read his mind, so I don't think there's any reason he would be especially resistant.

Though I'm not sure of how powerful powerful telepaths in DC are (I know MM and Miss Martian are pretty powerful, but how that stands against say, the many, many mutant telepaths in X-Men or something, I dunno.)

Well one telepathic battle between Aquaman and one of his foes was enough to harm even non psychic people as had to be stopped because of innocents being threatened by it. Or just Psiblast him since things like that ignore invulnerabilities.

[Hopeless]

They create the illusion of Batman staring at the Plutonian and then... smiling that alone should scare the hell out of anybody!:smallbiggrin:

Lets be honest if Batman is on the JL team you know he has already figured out what the Plutonian's weaknesses are and has set up the whole fight to bring him to his knees before he even realises just how much trouble he's in!

After all the Plutonian's weakness is his self-confidence and as long as his writer isn't able to interfere this fight is so going Batman's way!!!

[Tyndmyr]

I'm going to go with The Plutonian. Overconfidence is only a weakness when your power is NOT determined by what you believe it is.

And if there's one thing the Plutonian has, it's a serious case of the ego.

[TheEmerged]

I have no information on the strength of J'onn's telepathy in the "new 52" era.

Before that? J'onn had started doing things like scanning the minds of the entire planet in the space of a few minutes. It had been implied a few times that his telepathy was more broad than deep, however. Schtick here is that he tends to fight most of his telepathic battle-time against other martians, giving us trouble comparing his power level.

Aquaman's telepathic brain blast is more power stunt than anything useful in this context, in my opinion.

If we extended the membership of the JLA to the next tier, we have Zatanna to consider. She's always been something of a walking-talking Deux Ex, which makes pinning her exact power levels down quite dicey.

[NerfTW]

So, on one side of the equation, you have the Justice League. If you do not know who these fellows are, I feel very sorry for you. But it's the entire Justice League. They'll need the manpower.

On the other side, we have the Plutonian, who for the unversed, is basically what would happen if Lex Luthor's mental image of Superman was actually overestimating his moral compass, and on a sociopathic temper tantrum, and with no weaknesses. And he doesn't wear a cape anymore, so no hangman's noose.

Oh yeah, and can't forget the fact that he (spoilers):

essentially is as strong as he thinks he is, since his race's power is to subconsciously warp reality.

So, who wins?

Also, keep in mind that with the way his power works, he can be mentally manipulated into losing some of it. This doesn't happen in Irredeemable, but I need to give the League something of a chance.


As for your spoilers:

Gladiator, of Marvel's Shiar Imperial Guard, works in a similar fashion. His power (At least in the 90's post Onslaught) was psionically based. By making his willpower waver, he became a "normal" member of his species. Cannonball did this by using his kinetic barrier (that protects him when flying) to redirect the kinetic energy of Gladiator's punch around him, causing Gladiator to be surprised and vulnerable.

If that's the way the Plutonian works, then yeah, Batman has him beat.

[JoeMac307]

Saying the Entire Justice league is kind of difficult It would be easier if you picked a specific team.



This was my first thought as well.

Do you mean every hero that has ever been part of the Justice League, all at once? Like a force of forty or fifty heroes (I'm not sure the exact count, maybe more?) attacking the Plutonian all at once? Then I give it to the JLA.

Or do you mean the entire classic / current JLA (Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Green Lantern, Flash and Martian Manhunter (or now, Cyborg))? This would be a pretty tight match up.

I see people saying Batman would be able to take out Plutonian because he is a "Bat God" nowadays and prepared for anything... but Qubit from Irreedemable is a similiar character, and he is constantly being outclassed by Plutonian (and Modeus), so I'm not 100% convinced by that argument.

Edited to fix a typo

[WitchSlayer]

Couldn't Martian Manhunter just figure out how his power works then make him think he's weaker? It doesn't seem like it would be THAT hard.

[JoeMac307]

Couldn't Martian Manhunter just figure out how his power works then make him think he's weaker? It doesn't seem like it would be THAT hard.

Yes, if MM figured it out fast enough. Plutonian's heat vision is so devastingly strong that he carved his emblem across the entire length and breadth of the continental US in a matter of minutes... I am pretty sure he could completely and totally incinerate MM in a split second (fire is MM's only weakness...)

[WitchSlayer]

Yes, if MM figured it out fast enough. Plutonian's heat vision is so devastingly strong that he carved his emblem across the entire length and breadth of the continental US in a matter of minutes... I am pretty sure he could completely and totally incinerate MM in a split second (fire is MM's only weakness...)

But we're not talking about JUST Martian Manhunter. We're talking about Martian Manhunter, Superman, Wonder Woman, the Flash. Honestly I'm wondering if they'll even need the mindtrick considering one person being able to hurt him will probably lower his ego a little bit, let alone four.

[Leliel]

This was my first thought as well.

Do you mean every hero that has ever been part of the Justice League, all at once? Like a force of forty or fifty heroes (I'm not sure the exact count, maybe more?) attacking the Plutonian all at once? Then I give it to the JLA.

Or do you mean the entire classic / current JLA (Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Green Lantern, Flash and Martian Manhunter (or now, Cyborg))? This would be a pretty tight match up.

I see people saying Batman would be able to take out Plutonian because he is a "Bat God" nowadays and prepared for anything... but Qubit from Irreedemable is a similiar character, and he is constantly being outclassed by Plutonian (and Modeus), so I'm not 100% convinced by that argument.

Edited to fix a typo

Plus, there's Hornet, who is essentially Batman minus Paranoia.

He got turned into mist before Issue 1 started up.

Admittedly, part of the point is that Batman would have seen the danger signs in Plutonian several months before the Sound Virus, but both he and Hornet are quick thinkers and master planners. He's a genius, not God.

I'll let you select the lineup, because I'm curious and I don't keep up with comics that much.

[Devonix]

Yes, if MM figured it out fast enough. Plutonian's heat vision is so devastingly strong that he carved his emblem across the entire length and breadth of the continental US in a matter of minutes... I am pretty sure he could completely and totally incinerate MM in a split second (fire is MM's only weakness...)

Fire is a psychological weakness, not a physical one. Martians have a fear of fire instilled in their race by the Guardians. It just freaks them the eff out, it doesn't just flat out kill em.

[shadow_archmagi]

Plus, there's Hornet, who is essentially Batman minus Paranoia.

He got turned into mist before Issue 1 started up.

Admittedly, part of the point is that Batman would have seen the danger signs in Plutonian several months before the Sound Virus, but both he and Hornet are quick thinkers and master planners. He's a genius, not God.

I'll let you select the lineup, because I'm curious and I don't keep up with comics that much.

Having just wiki wiki wiki'd up, it seems unfair to rule Batman out just because the Hornet wasn't much help, for two reasons-

A. Hornet was betrayed, killed off right at the start of the war. Presumably in this matchup, Batman would be aware of the Plutonian's threat and be able to actually use his brain to coordinate the justice league.

B. Hornet actually did have a backup plan in case the Plutonian ever went bad that he successfully triggered that actually does (almost) solve the problem.

[JoeMac307]

Fire is a psychological weakness, not a physical one. Martians have a fear of fire instilled in their race by the Guardians. It just freaks them the eff out, it doesn't just flat out kill em.

I guess you didn't read Final Crisis? Martian Manhunter is killed by fire in the first issue (don't worry, he gets better). IIRC, it was a flaming sword, but an element of fire was involved nonetheless.

[Devonix]

I guess you didn't read Final Crisis? Martian Manhunter is killed by fire in the first issue (don't worry, he gets better). IIRC, it was a flaming sword, but an element of fire was involved nonetheless.

Oh no I read it. and the fire wasn't what killed him. He'd allready been beaten and dosed with tranqs and other such drugs as well as dogpiled by a gang of Supervillans. and then he is stabbed by an Apokoliptian Spear. not a regular weapon but one forged by evil gods.

[Devonix]

Oh no I read it. and the fire wasn't what killed him. He'd allready been beaten and dosed with tranqs and other such drugs as well as dogpiled by a gang of Supervillans. and then he is stabbed by an Apokoliptian Spear. not a regular weapon but one forged by evil gods.

Also this was during a time when the universe was injured by Darkseid's fall and the death of Orion resulting in a universe where evil was allowed to win.

[Tyndmyr]

I guess you didn't read Final Crisis? Martian Manhunter is killed by fire in the first issue (don't worry, he gets better). IIRC, it was a flaming sword, but an element of fire was involved nonetheless.

He dies by fire in the Dark Knight books too...I wouldn't use those as a sole source of powers, but there is some evidence for the weakness to fire being literal.

The Batman/Qubit analogy is fair. Note that, without Qubit, the Plutonian literally walks over everything else. Qubit is keeping them alive, albeit heavily outclassed.


A. Hornet was betrayed, killed off right at the start of the war. Presumably in this matchup, Batman would be aware of the Plutonian's threat and be able to actually use his brain to coordinate the justice league.

Hornet was also aware in advance. Here's the issue. The Plutonian has sufficiently advanced hearing that he can hear every single word on the planet at the same time, and know who uttered it and where. He can also hear your fear/lies/etc from your heartbeat. He can also be anywhere extremely rapidly.

Long story short, when you know, he knows you know. This is such a high-powered matchup that Batman's paranoia...while useful, is a bit overwhelmed.

[Devonix]

He dies by fire in the Dark Knight books too...I wouldn't use those as a sole source of powers, but there is some evidence for the weakness to fire being literal.

The Batman/Qubit analogy is fair. Note that, without Qubit, the Plutonian literally walks over everything else. Qubit is keeping them alive, albeit heavily outclassed.



Hornet was also aware in advance. Here's the issue. The Plutonian has sufficiently advanced hearing that he can hear every single word on the planet at the same time, and know who uttered it and where. He can also hear your fear/lies/etc from your heartbeat. He can also be anywhere extremely rapidly.

Long story short, when you know, he knows you know. This is such a high-powered matchup that Batman's paranoia...while useful, is a bit overwhelmed.

When his mental block is removed he becomes immune to fire. he's vulnerable only because he lets himself be it doesn't actually hurt him.

[Tavar]

In the Dark Knight books he's impaled by a giant flaming metal shuriken, after explicitly stating that he's lost all of his powers. Not really sure if the fire was key there.

[Bitter]

Martian Manhunter isn't in the Justice League since the New 52 retcon anyway.

I still give it to JLA. Too many superheroes who could conceivably take Plutonian on alone, let alone with back up.

[DiscipleofBob]

*Reads up on Plutionian*

The Plutonian has a clear, exploitable weakness.

Batman's entire modus operandi is exploiting exploitable weaknesses.

Especially with the entire JLA backing him up and providing cover, JLA easily.

Irredeemable spoilers below:
According to the Wikipedia plot summary, Qubit is the one who eventually takes down the Plutonian, by teleporting the wax bullet into the Plutonian's heart and then forcing the Plutonian to remove all the radiation from the earth.

Ergo, the Qubit/Batman analogy only puts things more in Batman's favor.

[Fan]

Any situation where it's an actual fight to the death no holds barred, Superman kills Batman. Let alone the Plutonian.

The Plutonian will know where he said "I'm going to need X for my plan to take down the Plutonian.", and he will find him before he finishes the sentence, and he will kill him.

However, a Flash + Supes Team up is all but unbeatable, the Plutonian will have all of his speed taken away, and then Flash will distribute it to the JLA, and they will have all the speed they normally have + The Plutonians and that is how they will win.

Not because Batman makes a Deus Ex Machina device, which is no limits fallacy in regards to Batman's planning skills.

I believe the best way to put it is as such.


Now, I don't know how many of you respectable forum goers read comics, but I do, and a whole huge ass pile of comics, and one of the things that gets me is how CRAZY the powers in these comics get.

Look at Superman? What does he have? He has more powers than a French Restaurants have to say, "Your taste in wine is atrocious", dude can go faster than light, shoot heat rays from his eyes, frost breath from his mouth, and god knows what from other places. He's that sort of crazy dude, and all because he can absorb solar radiation.

Now look at Batman? What do we have here? A guy who SHOULD be nothing but a tame martial artist master with some neat gadgets, but instead, rides with the people who can best be defined as the hottest **** to ever go on a plate? Why's this? Because his power is the anti power, if you give him time to roll this guy will figure out your power and use it to give you a seizure, the only way you're beating him is by finding where he is before he can build whatever crazy ass gadget of the week he's building.

Then there's the FLASH. Let me tell you about my man Wally West. If Superman's powers are having Super model twin's satisfy you in anyway you can imagine, and Batman's powers are having a beautiful wife who shares all of your interests and hobbies, then The Flash's powers are having a 200 person orgy available on command of people who want you to teach them to play your favorite video game, and want to buy the game and pay your electricity bill for you. This man is INSANE, they have to cut him in half in order to keep everyone else valid 99% of the time.

First off, the dude can go light speed like it's no problem, but that's not even the best part time slows down for him while he's doing it thanks to the speed force so it feels like he's having a casual jog, guy's so fast that you can hear one of his footstep's in Montana when he's already in Arizona and by the time you finished reading this far, he's somewhere on Mercury, but even that isn't enough.

The dude can vibrate through walls, now last I checked, there's no way to move so fast you vibrate through walls so the guy is actually so fast that he can individually pick and choose the movement of his own molecules to move through solid matter like it ain't no thing.

To make this worse he can selectively choose objects that he's vibrated through to be OKAY, or just explode. Now if that isn't whipped cream with a cherry on top. I don't know what is.

[JoeMac307]

When his mental block is removed he becomes immune to fire. he's vulnerable only because he lets himself be it doesn't actually hurt him.

Okay... Even if his vulnerability to fire is mental, wouldn't getting blasted with heat vision capable of carving huge trenches across the face of the US from space be enough to take MM out of the fight, even just from the pure mental shock?

(I guess that the correct answer is "depends on the writer"?)

[Selrahc]

I believe the best way to put it is as such.


Uh. You might want to like... credit your source?

[Fan]

Uh. You might want to like... credit your source?

So I'm not the only one aware of Wally West. It's really just quoting a forum goer, didn't figure it was IP or anything. =p

Would you perhaps be Endless Mike?

[Selrahc]

So I'm not the only one aware of Wally West. It's really just quoting a forum goer, didn't figure it was IP or anything. =p


I mean, it's not like a big deal or anything. Just somewhat disingenuous to post it up like you thought it up. It would be good manners to stick it in quotes.

[Tiki Snakes]

I mean, it's not like a big deal or anything. Just somewhat disingenuous to post it up like you thought it up. It would be good manners to stick it in quotes.

yeah, if you're going to quote things, use a quote box. It's just good form, (even if you don't remember who it is you are quoting).

[Devonix]

Okay... Even if his vulnerability to fire is mental, wouldn't getting blasted with heat vision capable of carving huge trenches across the face of the US from space be enough to take MM out of the fight, even just from the pure mental shock?

(I guess that the correct answer is "depends on the writer"?)

Well the heat vision wouldn't be any different than being blasted from a powerful energy blast. Martian Manhunter has heat vision on par with Superman, All Martians do. in fact the Martian race is stupidly powerful

Think Kryptonians or Daxamites without the same weaknesess. IE they originally didn't have any at all.

IE they have
Super Strength
Superspeed
Invulnerability
Heat vision
Telepathy
Shape Shifting
Intangibility
Don't need Yellow sunlight or anything for their powers
No Lead or Kryptonite weakness
ect.

The guardians introduced the fire phobia to keep them from overruning the galaxy.

Blasting him with heat vision that powerful would hurt but not kill or even make him go into the mental freak out. It's only actual fire that does that

Plutonian igniting a forest fire near him would actually be more effective than blasting him.

He has every power the Plutonian has plus more and is a telepath. the fire fear being his only weakness.

[JoeMac307]

Well the heat vision wouldn't be any different than being blasted from a powerful energy blast. Martian Manhunter has heat vision on par with Superman, All Martians do. in fact the Martian race is stupidly powerful

Think Kryptonians or Daxamites without the same weaknesess. IE they originally didn't have any at all.

IE they have
Super Strength
Superspeed
Invulnerability
Heat vision
Telepathy
Shape Shifting
Intangibility
Don't need Yellow sunlight or anything for their powers
No Lead or Kryptonite weakness
ect.

The guardians introduced the fire phobia to keep them from overruning the galaxy.

Blasting him with heat vision that powerful would hurt but not kill or even make him go into the mental freak out. It's only actual fire that does that

Plutonian igniting a forest fire near him would actually be more effective than blasting him.

He has every power the Plutonian has plus more and is a telepath. the fire fear being his only weakness.

Yeah, I know how powerful Martian Manhunter is... My contention is that post-Crisis Superman / Kryptonians / Daxamites / Martians are much less powerful than the Plutonian, who seems more on par with Silver Age Superman... But I could be wrong in that assessment.

[awa]

the thing in my mind is the justice league has had far more writers over the years and is far less consistent then the plutonian.

Personally i think jla has it in the bag. Plutonian is basically superman but evil im not certain hes done anything superman hasn't done recently in terms of raw power, (i never actually finished the series so i could be wrong) with the added advantage that the first time superman hits him really hard the plutonian starts to get weaker.

in regards to bat man meh i never liked Omniscient batman it always felt like they just made every one else stupid just so he could look cool.

edit in the silver age they could smash or move planets casually i don't think hes got silver age powers

[shadow_archmagi]

On the other hand, if he's vulnerable to a wax candle, then magic is a valid way of beating him, and doesn't the Justice League have a wizard? Or two?

So with wizards and psychics they should be able to completely bypass his powers, so it becomes a game of who shoots first.

[JoeMac307]

On the other hand, if he's vulnerable to a wax candle, then magic is a valid way of beating him, and doesn't the Justice League have a wizard? Or two?

So with wizards and psychics they should be able to completely bypass his powers, so it becomes a game of who shoots first.

Is he vulnerable to all magic, or just that specific magical item? (I'm not sure)

[Tyndmyr]

Is he vulnerable to all magic, or just that specific magical item? (I'm not sure)

That specific magical item. There is also speculation about a demon being able to stop him, but IIRC, that isn't borne out at all, so a weakness to all magic is unlikely.

[shadow_archmagi]

That specific magical item. There is also speculation about a demon being able to stop him, but IIRC, that isn't borne out at all, so a weakness to all magic is unlikely.

Is there some unique property of the wax candle, like it was made from the earwax of a saint that died under a blue moon or something?

Because if it's just a magic artifact that removes his powers, I feel like a no-powers zone is something the JLA wizards could handle.

Like, I admit, I havn't read as many comic books about the JLA wizards (I can't even remember who they are) as maybe I should've, but I feel like "This is a magic that I made and everyone without 100 feet of it is not a superhuman at all" is definitely a plot that happened at some point and could be replicated to save the day.

[Devonix]

The JLA has more than a few literal world shattering supers on the team at any given point. Plutonian vs one member would be a good fight, against the team... curbstomp.