What if Xykon... (SOD spoilers)

[CoffeeIncluded]

I just got Start of Darkness yesterday, and it was every bit as wonderful as I had expected it to be, and then some. But I was wondering something, well several things actually, but I don't know if I've seen this one?

What if Xykon had been treated with more respect by wizards, instead of constantly having his class beat on?

He's always been an evil sociopath of course, but Xykon, when he was alive, seemed to get most violent and riled up when his class was insulted, especially by wizards. And yet that didn't mean he couldn't like wizards--he seemed to genuinely like Ydranna, because she treated him with respect. So what would had happened had he been treated with respect from the start? Xykon almost certainly wouldn't have gone off with Redcloak and Righteye, and he wouldn't have ended up a lich.

Personally, I think there's a good chance he could have ended up...definitely not good, but not the evil supervillain he is today. He would have ended up more restrained and more controlled--and therefore more controllable. But what do you guys think?

[Peelee]

I think the first several pages with (excuse my poor memory here, I. Can't remember the character's actual name) Professor X shows his inherent instability. He was treated with respect there, if I recall, and still snuffed him. Also his grandmother and parents, both of whom likely respected and doted on him (though we are never shown this).

Edit: cheers on getting it! I was blown away the first time I read it, especially liking Right Eye.

[Tulya]

I think the first several pages with (excuse my poor memory here, I. Can't remember the character's actual name) Professor X shows his inherent instability. He was treated with respect there, if I recall, and still snuffed him. Also his grandmother and parents, both of whom likely respected and doted on him (though we are never shown this).

Xavion doesn't say that Wizards are inherently better than Sorcerers... but he does say that it's so self-evident that it would be gauche to say.

[Peelee]

Xavion doesn't say that Wizards are inherently better than Sorcerers... but he does say that it's so self-evident that it would be gauche to say.

Blarg. I thought replying before checking would come back to bite me.

Next page, though, has Xykon saying "I'm earning other people's respect through my action of killing you." Respect does seem to have a big part to play here, as that is one of Xykon's first questions after the offer, but I don't think wizards respecting him would have stopped him from becoming the abomination that he is, if he still met Redcloak when RC needed him.

And you still have the grandmother and parents.

[B. Dandelion]

Interesting... it's always nice to see people who've just read the book, it always lets me go back into it as if it's new again.

My impression of Xykon was that he was certainly annoyed by the condescension, but I didn't get the sense that being looked down on by wizards was a real sort of defining tribulation or that his identity was born out of a reaction to it. It was a recurring theme of his life, but I don't think it got to the heart of it exactly. Xykon wanted to be feared and respected because of what he was, period. Wizards tended not to fear and respect him, which was kinda infuriating at times and he thought they were stuck-up hypocrites, but that was more of a particularly persistent bump in the road towards him wanting fear and respect in general. By no means was it the only one of its kind.

For example, he flipped out about Keith Baker, essentially a muggle, getting a promotion ahead of him to about the same degree he flipped out when Fyron couldn't shut up about what sorcerers were compensating for -- but he was fine with the prospect of a wizard(ess) being promoted ahead of him instead. If he was strongly defined by a sense of being looked at as less than a wizard, Ydranna's promotion should have equally rubbed him the wrong way, but he didn't see it that way. He felt disrespected as a capable evildoer in general.

So I don't think being looked down on made a huge impact on his development. I think he would have turned out more or less the same no matter how wizards treated him. If they looked down on him, well he was out to prove them wrong along with everyone else who dismissed his capabilities. If they'd kowtowed to him, that would've just proved his already-assured (in his own mind) superiority.

To say otherwise seemingly makes Xykon more a product of his environment than his own determination -- but I think he and Redcloak were meant to be a contrast in that sense. Redcloak almost certainly would have turned out very differently if certain circumstances in his life had gone another way. Xykon not so much.

[Kish]

It's presuming a great deal to say that his parents likely respected and doted on him, I think. He clearly considered them letting in a wizard to condescend to him about how inferior he was to wizards to be a betrayal.

Whether there was always something off in Xykon's brain chemistry, or having massive power at such a young age turned him into a monster, I doubt he would be very different now without the specific grudge against wizards. It didn't prevent him from getting along reasonably well with wizards when he was alive (Yydranna), or from using them as tools without ever letting his views on wizards show now that he's dead (Tsukiko). He did reference it when hunting for Invisible Vaarsuvius, but even that reference was blink-and-you'll-miss-it-brief, and his actual treatment of Vaarsuvius was no different than it would have been if Vaarsuvius was a fellow sorcerer.

[Grey Watcher]

I'm inclined to agree with the consensus that, while it's something of a Berserk Button for him, the whole Wizard snobbery thing isn't really a defining motivation for Xykon. He takes special pleasure in taking down Wizards for that reason, but I can't think of a single instance where we would've reacted differently if the Wizards in his life had been less condescending to him.

[iBear]

Having just read it myself for the first time (and re-reading it again because it was that frickin' awesome), I don't think Xykon would have turned out any different. It's pretty clear that he was evil from a young age. He zombified his dog and thought it was awesome that it ate live birds, and zombified his grandmother before he even met Xavion.

His magical ability gives him a sense of entitlement and he thinks he's better than everyone else because of it. I think his special hatred for wizards comes from them thinking their approach to magic is better than his.

[NerfTW]

Xykon almost certainly wouldn't have gone off with Redcloak and Righteye, and he wouldn't have ended up a lich.

how do you figure? Xykon was still evil. He still wanted to hurt people. Sure, we saw mostly wizards as the people pissing him off, but remember his parents? He killed them as well, for no good reason. And I'm pretty sure the paladins weren't being killed because they were wizards.

I don't see how his annoyance at wizards had anything whatsoever to do with him joining Redcloak. If anything, the story would have been exactly the same. At best a few jokes would have been different. He didn't join with him to get revenge, he joined with him to take over the world and leave a mark.

It would be like saying that my annoyance at the barista at the coffee shop defined my entire existence. A little absurd. We probably saw almost the entirety of wizards he's met in his entire life in that book. They aren't a dime a dozen.

[Peelee]

On rereading the entire book, all you really need to fully answer this question is the preface. Specifically, the bottom couple of paragraphs in the left column. The most fitting lines (if I'm allowed to quote; if not, I'll remove) are "There are some people in this world who are driven to evil because of what life has forced them to endure; Xykon is not one of those."

[factotum]

Would Xykon have still been an evil lich if wizards hadn't shown him such contempt? I think probably yes--the guy was evil when he was five years old, he wasn't likely to get much better from that.

However, he might well have not set himself up to be such a perfect anti-wizard machine if he didn't have that simmering resentment against them, and that might have led him to lose his battle against Dorukan. That would have short-circuited the whole online strip, of course, which is why it didn't happen... :smallwink:

[CoffeeIncluded]

No, he'd still be irredeemably evil--he's Xykon. But I think that he might have been a bit more restrained. And by not ending up with Redcloak and Righteye; I meant he probably wouldn't have run into them that day, and so never would have run off and done the Plan with them. But yeah, it's not a defining motivation at all. I'm just thinking what Xykon would have done if his parents and Professor X had handled the situation with a bit more tact.

[Forikroder]

if Xykon hadnt met Redclaok hes be working on a different plan to rule the wordl

[Grey Watcher]

No, he'd still be irredeemably evil--he's Xykon. But I think that he might have been a bit more restrained. And by not ending up with Redcloak and Righteye; I meant he probably wouldn't have run into them that day, and so never would have run off and done the Plan with them. But yeah, it's not a defining motivation at all. I'm just thinking what Xykon would have done if his parents and Professor X had handled the situation with a bit more tact.

I dunno, I'm still inclined to think that his reason for killing Xavion boils down to: "Killing you and zombifying your remains seems like a faster and easier way to get respect than all the drudgery involved at your dumb school." And I don't think Xavion being a bit more respectful of non-Wizards would've substantially changed Xykon's decision-making process.

[iBear]

if Xykon hadnt met Redclaok hes be working on a different plan to rule the wordl

Actually, he'd be dead. He said that the Plan was bigger than his usual schemes, and he never would have become a lich.

Way to go, Redcloak. This is all your fault.

[Winter]

Way to go, Redcloak. This is all your fault.

"It will all be worth it..."

[factotum]

Actually, he'd be dead. He said that the Plan was bigger than his usual schemes, and he never would have become a lich.


I'm not so sure about that. Remember what Xykon told V about avoiding the Fire Below...I doubt he thought any differently than that before he became a twisted mockery of life powered by negative energy; he just maybe hadn't figured out a way to do the whole "avoiding death" thing. He might well have been searching for a way not to die when he bumped into Redcloak.

[SaintRidley]

I'm inclined to agree with the consensus that, while it's something of a Berserk Button for him, the whole Wizard snobbery thing isn't really a defining motivation for Xykon. He takes special pleasure in taking down Wizards for that reason, but I can't think of a single instance where we would've reacted differently if the Wizards in his life had been less condescending to him.

Yep. I think Xykon's treatment by wizards has largely been to the effect of tailoring his fighting strategy. That and it might give him a bit of a rush to one up a particularly annoying, condescending wizard. Doubly so now that he's dead; it's probably one of the few feelings he gets at all anymore.

And once more, with feeling.

[iBear]

I'm not so sure about that. Remember what Xykon told V about avoiding the Fire Below...I doubt he thought any differently than that before he became a twisted mockery of life powered by negative energy; he just maybe hadn't figured out a way to do the whole "avoiding death" thing. He might well have been searching for a way not to die when he bumped into Redcloak.

Maybe. He didn't know what a lich was until Redcloak told him, and I think he'd be a much less credible threat as a brain in a jar. :smallwink:

[Winter]

I'm not so sure about that. Remember what Xykon told V about avoiding the Fire Below...

That was hypocritic par excellence. Without Redcloak, he'd have shuffled off the mortal coil due to age a long time ago.

He had all the time and power he'd have needed to make himself immortal one way or the other - but he did nothing of that but let age progress. The stance that "live, no matter what" is probably also something he developed post-living when he had stopped being a human for whom "death is part of the thing" and became an abomination.

[Caivs]

Plus, he casually told Redcloak and Right-Eye when he met them that he was starting to look for ways to make himself some legacy before leaving, he didn't really look scared or repulsed by the idea of dying at that point.

The ''avoiding death'' definitely appeared after he became a lich, probably due to the fact he now felt completely superior to others, having ''found'' the way to be immortal. Avoiding death wasn't important when he was alive, but now that he is immortal, something that others aren't, it's now a great source of pride in his mind.

[B. Dandelion]

No, he'd still be irredeemably evil--he's Xykon. But I think that he might have been a bit more restrained. And by not ending up with Redcloak and Righteye; I meant he probably wouldn't have run into them that day, and so never would have run off and done the Plan with them. But yeah, it's not a defining motivation at all. I'm just thinking what Xykon would have done if his parents and Professor X had handled the situation with a bit more tact.

Why would he have been more restrained? He doesn't seem to have shown restraint before the concept of wizards were introduced to him. Why would a personality like his spontaneously developed restraint because of people not being hard on him?

I can't really conceive a connection between his encounter with Xavion and the later meeting at the fort that isn't strictly "butterfly connection" territory. So in the same vein that if Professor X had done things slightly differently, maybe Xykon wouldn't have wound up there, perhaps if the last diner Xykon had stopped at had had a bustier waitress, he would have lingered for a while and thus not shown up in time for the attack. So you see, it's all really the fault of the hiring practices of some dingy evil cafe...

[NerfTW]

I really don't see his methods as being affected at all by wizards. His methods are simply "Hey, I'm a sorceror. That means I can cast ANY spell at this level as many times as I have slots. Unlike a wizard, who has to prepare a specific number of spells."

So far we've seen that he likes Energy Drain. Of course. For a normal wizard, more than a few slots on that is a bad idea, because what if you need those for other spells that day. But instead of saying "Well, I'll only prepare 3 energy drains today, and the rest other spells", he can say "I have 5 spells at that level, and I can cast any combination of them 7 times. So I'll make sure my spell list is as versatile as needed to deal with any threat, even if that means 7 energy drains". He still would have cast the same spells on Dorukon regardless of Dorukon's taunts or his feelings towards wizards.

We saw the same thing with Roy. Xykon didn't tailor himself specifically to take out a fighter. He just cast the spells that would have the most effect on one who happened to be standing on a zombie dragon hundreds of feet off the ground.

As for the lich thing, again, unless you can give a good reason why not hating wizards would have affected his attack on a Sapphire guard outpost, then you might have a point. But all we've had are nebulous "He wouldn't have joined with Redcloak" posts with no real reason. At no point in his meeting with Redcloak do wizards have any effect on it. At no point are wizards brought up as a motivation.

I'd like to see an actual reason from someone, not more "He might have done something different, but I'm not going to actually suggest anything" posts.

[Xelbiuj]

Murder is extreme but "letting strange men into his room" is a great way to alienate a teenager, pretty dumb move on his parents side.

[Winter]

Alienate does not equal arose to murder.

Yes, that was a socially not smart move (not dumb) but I'd also not overestimate this (and use it to deduct how he was raised in general or something).

[RNGgod]

These slights and insults did not make Xykon evil.

They are, however, a beserk button. Xykon is probably going to kill you if you meet him, but you can bump that chance up to 100% if you make fun of sorcerors.

[Dark Matter]

IMHO more respect in this case would NOT mean "Xykon becomes less of an abomination".

IMHO more respect might mean, "Xykon is killed out of hand for being an abomination when he's still low or mid level".

One of the scary aspects of Xykon is how fast he gets experience. He was level 8+ when he killed his parents and started his career. He should have been killed the first time he was arrested. That would be the respect he deserved.

[JSSheridan]

If wizards were not so condescending, then X might not have zombified and purloined Fyron's body. Then Eugene might not have sworn a blood oath to destroy X. And then there would be no reason for Roy to be on a quest to destroy X, so no one opposes X and he takes over the world.

[Grey Watcher]

If wizards were not so condescending, then X might not have zombified and purloined Fyron's body. Then Eugene might not have sworn a blood oath to destroy X. And then there would be no reason for Roy to be on a quest to destroy X, so no one opposes X and he takes over the world.

I think he would've killed Xavion anyway. While Xykon's lethal response is certainly unwarranted in any case, I think he would've killed Xavion for the intrusion into his room and the offer to "waste time serving others", even if Xavion weren't such an insufferable ass about their respective classes.

As for Fyron, I'm pretty sure Xykon was fully prepared to kill whoever he had to to get the crown. The fact that he got to snuff out an Wizard (and one who let himself get taken by surprise because he insisted on being pedantic) was just a bonus.

[factotum]

Plus, someone who was happy to zombify his own grandmother wouldn't really see any reason *not* to zombify the perfectly usable corpse of the guy he just killed, regardless of who or what that person was.

[Dr.Epic]

Nah, he'd still be every bit as evil. He was working for that evil overlord and that was generally before he was insulted all those times for being a sorcerer. Heck, he killed a guy in a wheel chair and his parents early on in his life. Maybe he wouldn't have gone lich because maybe he wouldn't have met Red Cloak, but he'd still be evil. Really, it's the lich aspect that pushed him to his current really evil state.

[Winter]

If wizards were not so condescending, then X might not have zombified and purloined Fyron's body.

No. Xykon zombified Fyron because he knew it would annoy Eugene, not because Fyron was condescending. He stated he loves Murder & Run and we know he does all kinds of things just to annoy people. Also he knows that resurrection exists.

[factotum]

No. Xykon zombified Fyron because he knew it would annoy Eugene, not because Fyron was condescending.

I don't think Xykon could have known that...and if that was his reason, I'm sure he would have gloated about it at the time. I think he zombified Fyron purely because he saw no reason not to.

(Xykon is evil, true, but that doesn't mean everything he does has to be done for malevolent reasons!).

[LaughingGnoll]

(Xykon is evil, true, but that doesn't mean everything he does has to be done for malevolent reasons!).

Technically you're right, Evil doesn't always do evil for Evil's sake. However, I think Xykon is on a whole different level. It's hard to justify anything that he does if you take out the factor that, as Rich said in the introduction, "he's kind of a ****." Honestly, he probably IS one of those people who does evil just for the sake of it. It would also explain why he bound Lirian's and Dorukan's souls into the gem. He didn't NEED to specifically do that, except for tactical reasons, which we know that Xykon doesn't tend to think twice about. He probably did it JUST because he knew that it was something that evil does.

[Dark Matter]

It would also explain why he bound Lirian's and Dorukan's souls into the gem. He didn't NEED to specifically do that, except for tactical reasons, which we know that Xykon doesn't tend to think twice about. He probably did it JUST because he knew that it was something that evil does.If he hadn't bound Lirian's soul then she would have been raised before he ran into Dorukan. Needing to worry about that sort of thing is a real issue when you go Epic.

[LaughingGnoll]

If he hadn't bound Lirian's soul then she would have been raised before he ran into Dorukan. Needing to worry about that sort of thing is a real issue when you go Epic.

But again, that's a strategic line of thought. And from what we know about Xykon, strategy tends to be the last thing on his mind.

[Dark Matter]

But again, that's a strategic line of thought. And from what we know about Xykon, strategy tends to be the last thing on his mind.Sadism then. He's preventing Good people from reaching their deserved resting place.

But the first or second time he killed someone and had them raised he'd probably be annoyed enough to learn from the experience.