So... Rage For The Rage God: Hulk vs Red Lanterns

[Avilan the Grey]

...See above.
I would think the match interesting. Especially, of course, if they piss him off to World War Hulk levels.

[DiscipleofBob]

I'm pretty sure they'd make the Hulk they're leader.

[Anecronwashere]

Hulk wins. Either through being crowned leader (as above) or simply being stronger than the shouty flying men. because Hulk strongest of all.

[Avilan the Grey]

I'm pretty sure they'd make the Hulk they're leader.

I thought of that, and I don't think so. He might "attract" a red ring, but I don't see him use it.

And yes, I think he will win. By being stronger and angrier than the combined Red Lanterns.

Edit: the ironic part is if they early on figure out the key to his strength is his anger, and they start taunting him because they want him angry. I think they will change their minds quickly.

[Fragenstein]

Hey. I was just thinking about this the other day. Nice timing.

Which Hulk are we talking about? I'm pretty sure, for example, that any version where Banner has primary control would be in trouble. Even the second Grey Hulk (depsite the cunning and underhandness), might not be able to take a cadre of Reds.

If at his peak, we'd most likely see...

Hulk encounters Red Lanterns and a fight ensues. At least one of the reds dies and the ring naturally seeks out Hulk. Suddenly, all of his gamma irradiated blood is replaced by burning napalm.

What effect does this have on his gamma-originated strength?

If none, then we'll see the Banner personality consumed which leaves Hulk in a state much like Jean Grey placed him into. That's the version which was able to crush Onslaught, if I remember correctly.

Meanwhile, he's attracted the attention of Atrocitus and Bleez. They're going to have to work together in order to stop this new godlike creature in order to preserve their corps.

Is this while The Butcher is still imprisoned within the central red lantern battery?

If so, one of the two will likely free that creature in order to be possessed and gain Rage power on the level of Parallax.

Was Parallax stronger than Onslaught? If so, we're now talking an even match. If not, then Hulk probably wins again. Although this becomes an odd definition of 'wins' seeing as how Hulk now is the Red Lantern Corps.

[Avilan the Grey]

As I said I don't think Hulk would accept the ring.

[KnightDisciple]

As I said I don't think Hulk would accept the ring.

He doesn't really have a choice. They just stick themselves on there.

And now you have a Red Lantern Hulk who breathes gamma-irradiated napalm blood energy.

As for the Butcher: $10 says it senses the Hulk and hightails it right to him.

And then the Hulk starts tossing planets like shotput.

[The Troubadour]

How quickly can the Hulk break through a Red Lantern's energy bubble? If the Red Lantern has enough time, he can throw the Hulk into space and let him rage impotently until he either starts suffocating and dies, or turns back into Banner and dies.

[Prime32]

He doesn't really have a choice. They just stick themselves on there.I'm pretty sure the Hulk would become enraged as soon as someone mistakes him for Red Hulk, and try to smash it. :smalltongue:

[Fragenstein]

As I said I don't think Hulk would accept the ring.

Ah. Here I thought you meant that the ring might latch on to the Hulk and then be ignored by him from that point out.

KnightDisciple is right in that Red Lanterns generally have no choice at all in being selected. The ring forces itself onto someone and then alters them in ways that cause them to die without it. I believe only the combined power of Blue and Green rings can cleanse someone of the Red contamination without it killing them.

But does that really include the Hulk? For all his lack of wit, he seems to have an inhuman sense of self. For example, Hulk once powered through the unrestricted output of The Shaper of Worlds after that being had lost control of his own powers. Hulk only eventually fell because his gamma radiation was being siphoned off with each step.

It's always possible that the ring would deliver its message welcoming him to the Red Lantern Corps only to have him shout "Hulk is Hulk!" and crush it. I could easily envision that, but it still wouldn't make him any less of a threat to the Reds.

He might not, at that point, have the power levels of a Banner-free hulk, but he'd still attract the attention of a major boss fight.

As for The Butcher going after Hulk? The Entities seem to prefer willing hosts, even if that means having to seduce them into the job. Atrocitus or Bleez offering themselves freely and with great malice might be more attractive than even the unlimted fury of the Hulk.


Oh -- and The Troubadour? For some reason it never really works out to throw someone into space as a way to dispose of them. That happened to Lobo at least three times; once by Guy Gardner back when he had Sinestro's pre-Yellow-Lantern-Corps ring, once by Big Barda and her Mega-Rod teleporting him several light years away, and once by Superman sending him into orbit with an uppercut.

EDIT: Make that four times. Hal Jordan tried it back when the Green Lanterns, Darkstars and LEGION were all fighting over Maltus.


Hulk has been shot into space at least once (though that was with life support), only to have it backfire. Superman has also defeated him twice without ever resorting to launching him into the black.

[Avilan the Grey]

Ah. Here I thought you meant that the ring might latch on to the Hulk and then be ignored by him from that point out.

KnightDisciple is right in that Red Lanterns generally have no choice at all in being selected. The ring forces itself onto someone and then alters them in ways that cause them to die without it. I believe only the combined power of Blue and Green rings can cleanse someone of the Red contamination without it killing them.

But does that really include the Hulk? For all his lack of wit, he seems to have an inhuman sense of self. For example, Hulk once powered through the unrestricted output of The Shaper of Worlds after that being had lost control of his own powers. Hulk only eventually fell because his gamma radiation was being siphoned off with each step.

It's always possible that the ring would deliver its message welcoming him to the Red Lantern Corps only to have him shout "Hulk is Hulk!" and crush it. I could easily envision that, but it still wouldn't make him any less of a threat to the Reds.

He might not, at that point, have the power levels of a Banner-free hulk, but he'd still attract the attention of a major boss fight.

As for The Butcher going after Hulk? The Entities seem to prefer willing hosts, even if that means having to seduce them into the job. Atrocitus or Bleez offering themselves freely and with great malice might be more attractive than even the unlimted fury of the Hulk.


Oh -- and The Troubadour? For some reason it never really works out to throw someone into space as a way to dispose of them. That happened to Lobo at least three times; once by Guy Gardner back when he had Sinestro's pre-Yellow-Lantern-Corps ring, once by Big Barda and her Mega-Rod teleporting him several light years away, and once by Superman sending him into orbit with an uppercut.

EDIT: Make that four times. Hal Jordan tried it back when the Green Lanterns, Darkstars and LEGION were all fighting over Maltus.


Hulk has been shot into space at least once (though that was with life support), only to have it backfire. Superman has also defeated him twice without ever resorting to launching him into the black.

I think you summarize my ideas very well. One major idea is simply that the Red Lanters would encounter someone with more rage than them, WITHOUT the ring. Besides, in the present continuity ALL Red Lanters are Victims. So the ring might not even try to latch on to Hulk, because his rage is not from a great crime against him or someone he loves.

(As for Superman defeating him: one of the times he "defeated him" by calming him down. He (Supes) even admitted that even though Hulk at his initial power level didn't hurt him (he doesn't even move when punched) eventually Hulk would beat even him, maybe even kill him. Because Hulk has no upper power limit.)

[Mando Knight]

If it was during World War Hulk, though, it would be.

[Tebryn]

So the ring might not even try to latch on to Hulk, because his rage is not from a great crime against him or someone he loves

What? You don't count abuse as a crime with victims?

[Avilan the Grey]

If it was during World War Hulk, though, it would be.

True. But again, I don't think Hulk would ever give up being Hulk. As Fragenstein I am convinced he would smash the ring.


What? You don't count abuse as a crime with victims?

True again. However the ring shows itself to it's victims as they are being victimized or just afterwards. Not thirty years later.

[thubby]

fights against the hulk tend to break down as follows:

is he in hulk form?
yes: (can he be de-hulked?
(yes: kill banner)
(no: gg)

no:(can you kill banner fast enough to avoid hulking?)
(yes: kill banner)
(no: he goes into hulk form, see above)

[Fragenstein]

I think you summarize my ideas very well. One major idea is simply that the Red Lanters would encounter someone with more rage than them, WITHOUT the ring. Besides, in the present continuity ALL Red Lanters are Victims. So the ring might not even try to latch on to Hulk, because his rage is not from a great crime against him or someone he loves.

(As for Superman defeating him: one of the times he "defeated him" by calming him down. He (Supes) even admitted that even though Hulk at his initial power level didn't hurt him (he doesn't even move when punched) eventually Hulk would beat even him, maybe even kill him. Because Hulk has no upper power limit.)

He generally can't acheive those unlimited levels of rage while tethered to Banner's influence. It's only when purged of humanity that he hits his 'Beyond' potential. If he's not been fully unleashed by a Red ring and has to go against The Butcher with a morality anchor then he's going to be in trouble.

[JoeMac307]

I think you summarize my ideas very well. One major idea is simply that the Red Lanters would encounter someone with more rage than them, WITHOUT the ring. Besides, in the present continuity ALL Red Lanters are Victims. So the ring might not even try to latch on to Hulk, because his rage is not from a great crime against him or someone he loves.


I'm not sure it is entirely accurate to say that Hulk's rage is not from a great crime against him or someone he loves, for a number of reasons:

1. The Hulk came into existence in the first place because of a crime (a communist spy dropped a dang gamma bomb on Banner... that's a pretty huge crime)

2. The Green Hulk is more or less (depending on the author / interpretation) Banner's id (as in id, ego and superego) and/or his childlike instincts and emotions. The reason both Banner's id and/or childlike instincts and emotions is so full of rage is because he watched his father beat his mother to death in front of him!!! If that isn't a great crime against someone he loves, what the the heck is?

3. The classic green hulk, who just wants to be left alone, is pretty much the definition of a victim. He is constantly being assaulted by those who misunderstand and fear him and driven into fits of rage because of it.


True again. However the ring shows itself to it's victims as they are being victimized or just afterwards. Not thirty years later.

Ooops... I didn't see you post this response when I was writing up my own. Fair enough, that is a good point I wasn't thinking about.

[Mando Knight]

1. The Hulk came into existence in the first place because of a crime (a communist spy dropped a dang gamma bomb on Banner... that's a pretty huge crime)

If we're talking 616 Hulk (Main Marvel continuity), it wasn't because of a spy, it was because Banner ran out to save Rick Jones without stopping the bomb's countdown.

Why Rick was wandering in the blast zone of a nuclear testing facility I don't know.

[Fragenstein]

If we're talking 616 Hulk (Main Marvel continuity), it wasn't because of a spy, it was because Banner ran out to save Rick Jones without stopping the bomb's countdown.

Why Rick was wandering in the blast zone of a nuclear testing facility I don't know.

I think this is why we need to nail down incarnations on both sides. Hulk has had many many variations in strength and durability. Even Ultimate Universe Hulk ranged from Nerd Hulk who was beaten by Captain America alone to the monster that nearly killed the Squadron Supreme's version of Martian Manhunter.

In that continuity he's a victim of his own super soldier serum rather than any form of abuse. Unless they've carried the modern, abused backstory that the primary titles tacked on and I've missed it.

Hulk 2099 may have held even more of threat through the thicker armor and arguably equal strength.

[Prime32]

616 Hulk had his friends betray him and shoot him into space during Civil War. Then he came back (in the World War Hulk storyline) and his desire for revenge made him stronger than he'd ever been before.

So yeah, I'd say he qualifies as a victim.

[Scowling Dragon]

I donno. Underneath the anger I always seen hulk very human. Very kind and gentle.

But I still see him defeating the red lanterns.

[Zevox]

As for The Butcher going after Hulk? The Entities seem to prefer willing hosts, even if that means having to seduce them into the job.
No, not really. Ion seems to be the only one that only uses willing hosts, and he just goes into whoever the Guardians put him in. The Predator in particular seems to always go after unwilling hosts given its stated MO, Parallax has only taken a willing host once (during Blackest Night), and in the story arc directly preceding War of the Green Lanterns the others all took unwilling hosts, with the sole exception of Ophidian. During War of the Green Lanterns they took over the Guardians at Krona's command as well, with even Ion taking an unwilling host in that instance. Unless they've shown back up more recently (I read the trades, so I'm behind on the New 52 stuff), that's the extent of the information on them.

So yes, it is feasible that the Butcher would target Hulk as a host. Not sure what the result of that would be. Like most of the emotional entities, the Butcher wholly subsumes the host's personality and takes over, but he appears to seek out the source of the host's rage to destroy it, and once his host's rage begins to subside he seeks a new one. But I don't know enough about the Hulk to know what that would cause him to do. (And really, I don't know enough about Hulk to contribute to the discussion beyond clarifying stuff about the Red Lanterns and Butcher.)


Oh -- and The Troubadour? For some reason it never really works out to throw someone into space as a way to dispose of them. That happened to Lobo at least three times; once by Guy Gardner back when he had Sinestro's pre-Yellow-Lantern-Corps ring, once by Big Barda and her Mega-Rod teleporting him several light years away, and once by Superman sending him into orbit with an uppercut.
The fact that Lobo can survive in space anyway probably has something to do with that. Or at least, I assume he can, given he was never wearing any sort of life support devices when I saw him in 52.

Zevox

[Fragenstein]

No, not really. Ion seems to be the only one that only uses willing hosts, and he just goes into whoever the Guardians put him in. The Predator in particular seems to always go after unwilling hosts given its stated MO, Parallax has only taken a willing host once (during Blackest Night), and in the story arc directly preceding War of the Green Lanterns the others all took unwilling hosts, with the sole exception of Ophidian. During War of the Green Lanterns they took over the Guardians at Krona's command as well, with even Ion taking an unwilling host in that instance. Unless they've shown back up more recently (I read the trades, so I'm behind on the New 52 stuff), that's the extent of the information on them.

Keep in mind that I did use the term 'generally'. The Predator is so named for a reason, I'm sure, and Krona is a cosmic level entity. Neither of those are likely to play by established rules.

Parallax has been shown to take a host who's will has been broken. Initially that was Hal after the destruction of Coast City and later on it required psychological torture at the hands of the Yellow Corps for Parallax to acquire residence.

Ion was first tapped into by Kyle who was racing Nero for the power. Later on I believe the Guardians didn't actually force it on anyone, rather they chose lanterns who saw the task as an honor.

The Butcher took a man who was seeking deliberate revenge. It then left once his rage had been sated.

I'm using the concept of seduction loosely. For Fear, it's a matter of leaving the host unable to resist possession. For Will, it's generally been looked upon as a prize or a great honor to serve as host. For Rage, it's been a matter of active vengeance.

It would seem as if The Butcher would have to convince the Hulk to allow the merger willingly. I don't really see that happening. It might try, only to be rebuked and then seek out an Atrocitus or Bleez who were deliberately calling to it.

Or it might get ironic and go to someone completely unexpected. I really don't know that we'd see a cosmic Hulk out of the deal. If so then the combined whole would be a mass of aimless rage and nigh-infinite power. If The Butcher only sticks around until the source of the anger is eliminated then that might just include the entire multiverse.



The fact that Lobo can survive in space anyway probably has something to do with that. Or at least, I assume he can, given he was never wearing any sort of life support devices when I saw him in 52.

Yeah, Lobo can survive the hard vacuum of space while Hulk still has to breath. He can hold his breath for a very long time, however, and otherwise withstand the lethal rigors of space just fine.

The more important detail is that DC has established a precedence that deep-spacing a major threat is too convenient of a solution and shouldn't be allowed to work. If we're remaining faithful to the standards of the writing then we really should avoid taking that route.

How would he get out of it? Well... most of the Reds are going to be too mindless to really get a construct going that can achieve that sort of range. There's a good chance that it'd fade somewhere in high orbit leaving the Hulk to fall back to earth (like two of the four Lobo references).

Even if we are dealing with one of the more sapient Reds then Hulk could always just shred whatever lifting construct is being used before escaping the planet's gravity.

Could...maybe...would... In a purely hypothetical sense, that has the potential of being a viable tactic. In the established universes, however, it's been tried and always fails.

[Zevox]

Parallax has been shown to take a host who's will has been broken. Initially that was Hal after the destruction of Coast City and later on it required psychological torture at the hands of the Yellow Corps for Parallax to acquire residence.
The thing with Parallax is that he requires his target to feel fear in order to take them over. For Green Lanterns like Hal or Kyle, that requires some measure of will-breaking. For others it is much easier - he took over the Flash simply because he was afraid for Hal since he had discovered Hal was working with Sinestro and Atrocitus at the time.

Point being, feeling fear doesn't make his hosts willing to be his hosts, it just allows him to take them. The only time he has taken a willing host was when Hal deliberately allowed Parallax to possess him during Blackest Night, because he believed that only by doing so could he stop the Black Lantern Specter.


The Butcher took a man who was seeking deliberate revenge. It then left once his rage had been sated.
The Butcher took a man enraged at the taunting of the man who had killed his daughter. Because of the Specter's interference however, that man got to see the Butcher before becoming possessed by it, and he was plainly terrified of it. I'd hardly call that a willing host. The Butcher simply locked on to the man's rage and took over, without regard for the man's wishes beyond that raw emotion. That is why this:


It would seem as if The Butcher would have to convince the Hulk to allow the merger willingly.
does not fit with what has been shown of the Butcher. If the Hulk feels rage great enough to attract the Butcher, then the Butcher could possess him - Hulk's wishes outside of his raw rage wouldn't matter.

Zevox

[Avilan the Grey]

If the Hulk feels rage great enough to attract the Butcher, then the Butcher could possess him - Hulk's wishes outside of his raw rage wouldn't matter.

Zevox

And that would make Hulk rage MORE.

Sidenote, maybe it deserves it's own thread: Characters that would work VERY well together in a DC / Marvel crossover: Lady Blackhawk and Captain America.

[Zevox]

And that would make Hulk rage MORE.
...and? What effect would that have? From what we saw when Parallax possessed Kyle in the Sinestro Corps Wars, those possessed by the emotional entities have their consciousness trapped within their own mind, while the entity controls their body (the sole exception being Ion, who exerts no control over his host normally). At that point, any further rage from Hulk would simply mean the Butcher wouldn't release him, since he releases his hosts only when their rage subsides.

Zevox

[Avilan the Grey]

...and? What effect would that have? From what we saw when Parallax possessed Kyle in the Sinestro Corps Wars, those possessed by the emotional entities have their consciousness trapped within their own mind, while the entity controls their body (the sole exception being Ion, who exerts no control over his host normally). At that point, any further rage from Hulk would simply mean the Butcher wouldn't release him, since he releases his hosts only when their rage subsides.

Zevox

True. On the other hand anecdotal evidence suggests Hulk's willpower increases with his rage as well.

[irenicObserver]

Has it been shown that emotions could expel an Entity? At any point it's moot, willpower and rage remains equal but the latter is actively being used to exert control.

[Zevox]

Has it been shown that emotions could expel an Entity?
Not that I am aware of. The only times an Entity's control has been broken from within, it was by the combined efforts of multiple simultaneous hosts - Hal Jordan and the Specter in Rebirth, and Hal and Kyle in Sinestro Corps War, both done to Parallax. Otherwise severing an entity from its host has been done from the outside or by the Entity deliberately leaving.

Zevox

[Devonix]

The Hulk feels rage
The Butcher IS Rage

Everything that the Hulk feels would only empower the Butcher more and make it more difficult to regain control. and don't say that he could Outrage the Butcher as he's the living embodiment of the rage of the universe.

[Xondoure]

The Hulk feels rage
The Butcher IS Rage

Everything that the Hulk feels would only empower the Butcher more and make it more difficult to regain control. and don't say that he could Outrage the Butcher as he's the living embodiment of the rage of the universe.

"HULK ANGRIEST THERE IS! HULK SMASH PUNY ENTITY!"

[Devonix]

"HULK ANGRIEST THERE IS! HULK SMASH PUNY ENTITY!"

Yeesss Give in to your hate!

[Selrahc]

Not that I am aware of. The only times an Entity's control has been broken from within, it was by the combined efforts of multiple simultaneous hosts


Which is interesting, because in effect the Hulk *is* multiple simultaneous Hosts. There are dozens of different constructed personalities inside Banners head, from Joe Fixit to Savage Hulk to Worldbreaker to Professor Hulk.

[Anecronwashere]

Yeesss Give in to your hate!

"HULK ANGRIER THAN YOU! GRARRRGH!!!! HULK FREE OF PUNY GHOST-MAN!"

Really the Hulk will get angrier and angrier as he isn't ridding himself of the Butcher until he does throw him off. Which means it's like a Leech trying to drink a steadily increasing torrent of water while a steadily increasing force is trying to tear it off.

If it took 2 people to rip the Butcher from him then Banner would probably try and help, if the will of the Hulk isn't enough by itself.

[irenicObserver]

Which is interesting, because in effect the Hulk *is* multiple simultaneous Hosts. There are dozens of different constructed personalities inside Banners head, from Joe Fixit to Savage Hulk to Worldbreaker to Professor Hulk.

Hmm, I guess multiple personalities could factor in. I think the conjecture would need them to do so without rage though.

[VanBuren]

"HULK ANGRIER THAN YOU! GRARRRGH!!!! HULK FREE OF PUNY GHOST-MAN!"

Really the Hulk will get angrier and angrier as he isn't ridding himself of the Butcher until he does throw him off. Which means it's like a Leech trying to drink a steadily increasing torrent of water while a steadily increasing force is trying to tear it off.

If it took 2 people to rip the Butcher from him then Banner would probably try and help, if the will of the Hulk isn't enough by itself.

No matter who wins, we all lose.

[The Glyphstone]

"HULK ANGRIER THAN YOU! GRARRRGH!!!! HULK FREE OF PUNY GHOST-MAN!"

Really the Hulk will get angrier and angrier as he isn't ridding himself of the Butcher until he does throw him off. Which means it's like a Leech trying to drink a steadily increasing torrent of water while a steadily increasing force is trying to tear it off.

If it took 2 people to rip the Butcher from him then Banner would probably try and help, if the will of the Hulk isn't enough by itself.


No matter who wins, we all lose.

No kidding. If it works like this, then Hulk will eventually break free. But until he does, the Butcher-Hulk will get stronger and stronger and cause exponentially more damage.

[Xondoure]

Actually, come to think of it, the Hulk would make a pretty good candidate for a green ring as well.

Edit: It matches his aesthetic and everything!

[irenicObserver]

I think the Butcher would be quick to push Hulk into Worldbreaker levels. You have a corrosive plasma breathing gamma mutant whose very steps are strong enough to break California off of the western sea board.

Here is how I figure:
Hulk v. Red Lantern (singular): Hulk wins
Hulk v. Red Lanterns: Lanterns win (maybe)
Scenario: Hulk becomes lantern mean he wins

[Zevox]

Which is interesting, because in effect the Hulk *is* multiple simultaneous Hosts. There are dozens of different constructed personalities inside Banners head, from Joe Fixit to Savage Hulk to Worldbreaker to Professor Hulk.
Hard to say whether multiple personalities would matter. But it's kind of hard to tell exactly how throwing off an Entity's control from within really works anyway.

The first time, when Hal and the Specter threw of Parallax shortly before Hal's resurrection, it was after a protracted internal struggle with him, which Parallax appeared to have won. It was only when Parallax got into a fight with a bunch of superheroes and appeared intent on killing Alan Scott that Hal managed to struggle one last time, and the Specter somehow succeeded in separating the three of them quite dramatically.

The second time, when Kyle was possessed during the Sinestro Corps War, Parallax absorbed Hal when he attempted to remove Kyle from him from the outside. Guy and John arrived and showed a painting that meant quite a bit to Kyle (long story) to him, and between that and Hal's encouragement Kyle finally snapped out the state of fear and despair Sinestro had left him in that allowed Parallax to possess him. Hal and Kyle then managed to break free of him, literally clawing their way out from within.

In all that, it's not really clear what, precisely, allowed the escapes. Was it sheer force of will? Was it the Specter's supernatural power in the first instance, and Kyle beating his fear in the second? Was it the fact that Parallax was caught up in an external fight on top of the internal one? Some combination of any or all of those? It's really quite hard to say. Which makes it even harder to say how it would work with the Butcher, since we've seen much less of him than of Parallax.

Zevox