Can a beautiful character have low charisma?

[Giegue]

As the title asks. Often times I see people that make characters(Paticularly female ones.) who have dumbed charisma but yet are still physically attractive, and I wonder how is this possible? I know that charisma is not all about looks but I still want to know from you guys how you can justify your 8-cha female wizard or druid being gorgeous? More importantly, if you say it comes down to having an uncharismatic personality, how do you RP them being SO uncharismatic that it justifies the dumb in cha despite their looks? Likewise, dose your low cha character ALWAYS have to be played as shy and lacking in self-confidence and self-worth, or can they be played as abrasive, rude and obnoxious(and perhaps even snarky to the point of being a *****.) yet still very much a confident(Maybe to the point of unlikeable arrogance?) person and/or an extrovert?

I just want to know, is all, as I am curious as to how people can make physically attractive characters with a dumb in cha and manage to balance the physical beauty out with personality in RP to justify it?

[Madeiner]

Have you NEVER met a very beautiful woman with 8 charisma? They are like, everywhere!
Check actors. Amy Winehouse for example, even if i don't really know her, i hear her charisma was pretty low.

[Saph]

Yes.

A high-appearance, low-charisma character is one who looks good standing around but who ruins the effect as soon as they open their mouth.

[Cespenar]

If anything, the personality/confidence angle is more dominant than the beauty angle for the Charisma stat. Look at the Cha related skills, for one.

[Craft (Cheese)]

By RAW, no. Charisma represents physical beauty.

However, I think that's absolutely stupid and I've not once ever met a DM who actually enforced it. "Oh, you have a zit, so now you can't activate wands as reliably."

[Issabella]

Wonderfully attractive, voice like nails on a chalk board, maybe holds very abhorrent views and has no qualms expressing them openly. Use real life as an example, how often are the beautiful so narcissistic, condescending, and rude. Have them comment on their own wondrous beauty and perfection with disparaging remarks about others appearances.

[Telonius]

Personally, I find that physical beauty is the least important aspect of charisma. Charisma is all about projecting your will onto the world around you.

One way of doing this (as you suggested) is someone who doesn't believe they're capable of making things happen; basically, by having them be very shy. Imagine someone who has no self-esteem, but is drop-dead gorgeous (or would be if they ever got some confidence).

The other way is for someone to believe they can make things happen and is trying to do so, but is just totally incompetent about it. (This works particularly well for a low-charisma, low-wisdom character). They don't understand how their actions are going to be perceived by their audience. Either they come across as an ice queen, or rude, or as low-class. (Just you wait, 'enry 'iggins!)

A third way is to have a beautiful person who just doesn't care who they step on, and is constantly offending people because of it. This is the typical spoiled brat.

[Gamer Girl]

Yes. Are own world is really full of lots of examples: Dear God: Kim Kardasian, Pairs Hilton, Amy Winehouse, Kenda Wilkonsin, most 'reality stars'.


Kenda, is such a great example. Sure she looks great...but then as soon as she opens her mouth or does anything most people will be shocked and taken back.


And yes a low charisma person could look good, but just act like a jerk. Kinda like the stereotypical guy jerk from Europe, or the jock jerk, or the mean girl cheerleader.

[Totally Guy]

When you roll your charisma and derived skills and fail more often than someone with a higher charisma would have done the in-game events and complications will give feedback that tells you that your character is uncharismatic.

When you choose to do something other than a charisma roll because it would be unlikely to succeed then the in-game events and your choice also feedback that your character is uncharismatic.

That stuff doesn't interact with whatever beauty you write on the character sheet. (Mainly because in D&D you can say you have cute freckles and notably grey eyes but you don't get to roll any dice for that stuff.)

[Jay R]

The high-beauty character is the one you want to look at.

The high-CHA character is the one you want to follow.

I know several people in one category or the other, and several that are in both.

[Astral Avenger]

Physical attractiveness is remarkably subjective, a few hundred years ago, being fat was a sign that you were wealthy and therefore generally considered attractive. it could be that the player's view of attractiveness is very different from the view taken in the rp world. I can't give you to much advice on the RP side as my dnd group is much more along the lines of the DM of the Rings group.

(...)
Likewise, dose your low cha character ALWAYS have to be played as shy and lacking in self-confidence and self-worth, or can they be played as abrasive, rude and obnoxious(and perhaps even snarky to the point of being a *****.) yet still very much a confident(Maybe to the point of unlikeable arrogance?) person and/or an extrovert?
Heck no. Look at belkar & durkon, both have low(ish) CHA (source (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230935)) and neither is shy, lacking in self-confidence or self-worth and belkar is practicly the definition of an abrasive, rude and obnoxious character. On the other hand, neither of them are chicks wearing a metal bikini and calling it full plate...

[The Glyphstone]

By RAW, no. Charisma represents physical beauty.

However, I think that's absolutely stupid and I've not once ever met a DM who actually enforced it. "Oh, you have a zit, so now you can't activate wands as reliably."

Not entirely correct. Physical beauty is represented by Charisma, but as this thread has shown, Charisma covers much more than physical beauty. If the non-physical aspects of your Charisma are strong enough to outweigh your physical imperfections...boom! ugly+high Charisma.

[inexorabletruth]

Charisma has a lot more to do with motivating and influencing people.

It's challenging to list off attractive people with low charisma, IRL. But that's mainly because they aren't charismatic, not because they don't exist. I've known a few people whose beauty has actually worked as a detriment to their success because they were thought of as bimbos because they are attractive.

My wife was a teen model who developed early, but was into anime, counter-culture music, Magic: The Gathering, renaissance festivals, knitting and crocheting, and could recite Monty Python and the Holy Grail word for word. She was a total entertainment junkie nerd. But when she tried to hang out with the nerds, they thought she was just going to make fun of them, and the popular kids were in to more mainstream things than she wasn't interested in, so she was always kept on the fringe of the cliques and therefore had very little influence. Growing up, she had a very hard time being taken seriously (turns out, she's awesome and I'm glad I married her! :smallbiggrin:) and serves as a great example of good looks and low CHA going hand in hand.

Highly influential people who don't belong on the cover of GQ or Vogue:

Winston Churchill
Adolf Hitler (bad guy, but they can be charismatic too)
Dwight D. Eisenhower
Martin Luther King Jr.
Mohandas Ghandi
Hilary Clinton
Tim Burton
Michael Moore
Prime Minister Gordon Brown
The majority of the royal family.
Most republicans.


It stands to reason that if unattractive people can be charismatic, then attractive people can be uncharismatic. It's all about how well you can influence, motivate, or manipulate people.

CHA skills in D&D 3.5:

Bluff
Diplomacy
Disguise
Gather Information
Handle Animal
Intimidate
Perform
UMD
UPD

[Craft (Cheese)]

Not entirely correct. Physical beauty is represented by Charisma, but as this thread has shown, Charisma covers much more than physical beauty. If the non-physical aspects of your Charisma are strong enough to outweigh your physical imperfections...boom! ugly+high Charisma.

Let's say a very persuasive, pretty character has a CHA score of 18.

If physical attractiveness affects Charisma, then ugliness should mean CHA is lower. A just as persuasive, but very ugly-looking character might have a CHA of 17, assuming that beauty affects only in a 1-point spread. (If beauty alone isn't significant enough to ever impact your CHA stat by even 1 point, then does it make any sense to say CHA represents that?)

Relative to the CHA 18 character, you take a 5% penalty to diplomacy checks, just for being ugly.

The way that ability scores work means that for two qualities to both impact a score, they need to be correlated somehow, since the poorer quality will drag down the use of a better quality. You can sorta-kinda justify it with persuasiveness: "He's so pretty, before he even speaks girls will do anything in the hopes of winning his attention." "She's so ugly that people turn and run, or attempt to chase her out, before listening to what she has to say."

It's harder to justify with stuff like Sorcerer spellcasting, Use Magic Device, Turn Undead...

[Saph]

It's harder to justify with stuff like Sorcerer spellcasting, Use Magic Device, Turn Undead...

Pretty much everything Charisma-related makes most sense if you interpret it as force of personality. High-Cha characters can not only sway people's opinions and get them to do what they want, but they can even make magic do what they want.

Yes, I know, there's one reference in the PHB to Charisma covering physical attractiveness. Just ignore it. It's not like there's any real reason to care about 3.5's RAW anymore.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Pretty much everything Charisma-related makes most sense if you interpret it as force of personality. High-Cha characters can not only sway people's opinions and get them to do what they want, but they can even make magic do what they want.

Yes, I know, there's one reference in the PHB to Charisma covering physical attractiveness. Just ignore it.

My thoughts exactly.

[The Glyphstone]

Let's say a very persuasive, pretty character has a CHA score of 18.

If physical attractiveness affects Charisma, then ugliness should mean CHA is lower. A just as persuasive, but very ugly-looking character might have a CHA of 17, assuming that beauty affects only in a 1-point spread. (If beauty alone isn't significant enough to ever impact your CHA stat by even 1 point, then does it make any sense to say CHA represents that?)

Relative to the CHA 18 character, you take a 5% penalty to diplomacy checks, just for being ugly.

The way that ability scores work means that for two qualities to both impact a score, they need to be correlated somehow, since the poorer quality will drag down the use of a better quality. You can sorta-kinda justify it with persuasiveness: "He's so pretty, before he even speaks girls will do anything in the hopes of winning his attention." "She's so ugly that people turn and run, or attempt to chase her out, before listening to what she has to say."

It's harder to justify with stuff like Sorcerer spellcasting, Use Magic Device, Turn Undead...


Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.
The issue, naturally, being that the rules do not actually specify how the various qualities making up Charisma correlate to each other. It is part of the stat, though.


Pretty much everything Charisma-related makes most sense if you interpret it as force of personality. High-Cha characters can not only sway people's opinions and get them to do what they want, but they can even make magic do what they want.

Yes, I know, there's one reference in the PHB to Charisma covering physical attractiveness. Just ignore it. It's not like there's any real reason to care about 3.5's RAW anymore.

Okay, good point there.

[Yora]

Actually, when it comes to mechanics, appearance does not affect charisma at all. Otherwise you would have to get penalties every time you deal with blind characters.
Nothing that includes the Charisma score requires appearance. Everything that includes the Charisma score works perfectly without appearance.

[The Glyphstone]

Actually, when it comes to mechanics, appearance does not affect charisma at all. Otherwise you would have to get penalties every time you deal with blind characters.
Nothing that includes the Charisma score requires appearance. Everything that includes the Charisma score works perfectly without appearance.

...Disguise?:smallconfused:

Though the fact that trying to disguise yourself vs. a blind person has no effect on the outcome is probably a bigger issue in itself.

[BRC]

I've always felt that Charisma was only tangentially linked to physical appearance. Since Charisma works on everybody, but physical standards of beauty change between cultures, the elven epitome of beauty may look hideous to, say, a goblin, but a high-charisma character can influence elves and goblins equally.

Charisma is about confidence and force of personality. Now, an attractive person may grow up to be more confident and forceful, thus resulting in a higher charisma, but it's not always linked.

[Lord_Gareth]

By RAW, no. Charisma represents physical beauty.

However, I think that's absolutely stupid and I've not once ever met a DM who actually enforced it. "Oh, you have a zit, so now you can't activate wands as reliably."

You DO know that dragons, pit fiends, beholders, mind flayers, balors, and various and sundry hideous abominations against Gods and Humanoids have through-the-roof Charisma scores, right?

[Craft (Cheese)]

You DO know that dragons, pit fiends, beholders, mind flayers, balors, and various and sundry hideous abominations against Gods and Humanoids have through-the-roof Charisma scores, right?

I dunno about you, but I think Beholders are EXTREMELY sexy~

[Yora]

...Disguise?:smallconfused:

Though the fact that trying to disguise yourself vs. a blind person has no effect on the outcome is probably a bigger issue in itself.
Your race, size category, and sex matter, but what use is the most beautiful half-elven face when you want to disguise yourself as an old orc woman. How you look does make a difference, but none that is reflected in the mechanics of the game.

[Goosefeather]

I think the relation between the two might even to an extent be the other way around.

I know one girl who, objectively speaking, has decent looks, though not amazing. Yet she has this incredibly strong, magnetic personality, and I swear this actually affects how you see her physically. She comes across as incredibly attractive and could probably charm the pants off any guy she wanted to.

Heck, haven't studies shown that a smile immediately makes a face more attractive?

Point being, if someone has an attractive personality, you'll be more inclined to notice attractive aspects of their physical person, and unconsciously ignore what, more objectively, might be seen as less attractive aspects.

[Emmerask]

By raw (3.5) physical attractiveness is one of the 5 most important factors for charisma.
So it logically follows that if it makes only 20% (if we would weight all the same) of your overall charisma score then yes you can have low charisma while still being extremely attractive your other traits just must be bad enough ^^

Though it also follows that you can´t have the lowest charisma score possible for that race.

(and yes I do agree that it makes no sense to actually have attractiveness in the cha score [blind creatures?, creatures that have a completely different sense of aesthetics? why is your looks not substracted from diplomacy etc? but raw is raw ^^)

[tensai_oni]

This is why Mutants and Masterminds has Attractive feats. A shy or obnoxious but beautiful character may have Attractive 1 or even 2, but a low Cha score. Churchill would have 20 Cha but obviously, no Attractive feat.

In M&M feats are much easier to get than in DnD (1 power point = 1 feat, and by default you have 150 PPs to spend) so often it's even a good choice mechanically.

[Jay R]

In the first edition of Chivalry and Sorcery, Appearance is one of the base characteristics, and Charisma is a calculated characteristic - an average of Intelligence, Wisdom, Appearance, Bardic Voice, and Dexterity.

[Man on Fire]

Sure, for starters, try to make beautiful character a stutterer, it's scientifically proven people canot stand them (seriously, our attention has small intervals set each few seconds, during which it resets, the way we speak is accomodated so pauses we make between sentences happens during those intervals, but stutters cannot fit their pauses in places, which forces listeners to drag their attention which is why listening to them is found to be tiresome and annoying). Through that requires giving them huge bonus to intimidate, because they can always threaten people they will speak for a very long time.

Okay, enough of my self-loathing, another way to make beautiful person having low Charisma is to give them weak personality. Make person timid, shy, easy to push around, unabe of standig up for him/herself.

Or you can do Rei Ayanami clone - attractive person who acts so emotionless and creepy it's hard to like them.

[Morithias]

Well this is going into 3rd party and is probably going to get me told off...but...in the only book that I have ever found that actually goes into beauty/sexual attractiveness/etc the book of erotic fantasy..appearance and charisma are two different scores.

[Emmerask]

Charisma (Cha)

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting. Charisma is most important for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to turn undead. Every creature has a Charisma score.


So it is part of the srd which trumps book of erotic fantasy for raw

[kyoryu]

As everyone else has said, yes.

But the Vandals put it rather succinctly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3NS853W4bU

[inexorabletruth]

By raw (3.5) physical attractiveness is one of the 5 most important factors for charisma.
So it logically follows that if it makes only 20% (if we would weight all the same) of your overall charisma score then yes you can have low charisma while still being extremely attractive your other traits just must be bad enough ^^

Though it also follows that you can´t have the lowest charisma score possible for that race.

(and yes I do agree that it makes no sense to actually have attractiveness in the cha score [blind creatures?, creatures that have a completely different sense of aesthetics? why is your looks not substracted from diplomacy etc? but raw is raw ^^)

Yes... that's technically printed as the last defining aspect of Charisma in the fluff on PHB, pg. 9... but a lot of 3.5 published fluff can be thrown right out the window. WoTC didn't really match fluff with crunch well in a lot of their 3E and 3.5 materials (see Monk or Samurai). If you want to know what CHA is, look at the crunch by RAW. It's about force of personality... that "je ne sais quoi" that makes people so darn persuasive. Can hotness help with that? Sometimes... sometimes it's a detriment; it really depends on the circumstance. But if sex appeal is relevant to CHA why don't Elves get a bonus to CHA?

PHB, pg. 15:

Elves possess unearthly grace and fine features. Many humans and members of other races find them hauntingly beautiful.

Elves = Attractive
High CHA = Attractive? :smallconfused:
Elves = High CHA? :smalltongue: Nope.

It may appear at first glance that attractiveness is CHA by RAW, but it doesn't seem to have any bearing on CHA at all whatsoever. A beautiful, but shy (or socially awkward) character is not only possible, but just as much an archetype as a rough looking extravert. The good thing about that is, you can still build the character you want. You want a shy hottie? An ugly motivational speaker? Do it, and you're still doing it by RAW.

[Ashdate]

Charisma is about confidence and force of personality. Now, an attractive person may grow up to be more confident and forceful, thus resulting in a higher charisma, but it's not always linked.

This.

From the Encyclopedia Britannica (link (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/106499/charisma), emphasis mine):


charisma, attribute of astonishing power and capacity ascribed to the person and personality of extraordinarily magnetic leaders. Such leaders may be political and secular as well as religious. They challenge the traditional order, for either good or ill.

The word derives from the Greek charis (“grace”) and charizesthai (“to show favour”), connoting a talent or grace granted by the divine.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Well this is going into 3rd party and is probably going to get me told off...but...in the only book that I have ever found that actually goes into beauty/sexual attractiveness/etc the book of erotic fantasy..appearance and charisma are two different scores.

Interestingly, they actually do something with it that I think is pretty nifty: You take Appearance penalties when dealing with a different race (with bigger penalties depending on how "different" they are from you), but a trait unique to humans is that human beauty is apparently somewhat universal: Humans take vastly reduced penalties in all cases.


Which does a lot to explain all the half-human hybrids running around.

[The Random NPC]

I dunno about you, but I think Beholders are EXTREMELY sexy~

Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder.

[Vknight]

Exactlly beauty is in the eye of the beholder...
But a * is still a *.

Ok more serious Charisma is all about the ability to manipulate use words and have a voice which makes others want to listen to you not because they have to but because they can.
It effects how people mentally see you so in small ways those with high charisma can look more appealing then those with high appearance.

My personal favorite example is Winston Churchill, definitively not high up on the appearance, but his charisma that has made all the difference

[Morithias]

So it is part of the srd which trumps book of erotic fantasy for raw

Yeah but the SRD also says "A demigod has anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand devoted mortal worshipers and may receive veneration or respect from many more."

Meaning that given the right feats I can make a level 12 character with enough followers to become a demigod RAW.

So if you just go by RAW and SRD, next time I play in one of your games I expect to be able to run a character with the alter reality divine power.

[Emmerask]

I would never play a raw d&d game, but for the purpose of discussion raw still is the backbone we should use because everything else is just so open to interpretation and differs so greatly from group to group that any discussion becomes completely meaningless.

One could argue that that a raw discussion (that almost never will see actual gameplay) is also pointless though :smallsmile:

[Reluctance]

So long as they're not trying to use their looks for any advantage, I say handwave it. They get the character they mechanically want, skinned how they want, and it's all fluff.

If they try using their looks to their advantage, that's when it becomes unfortunate. There's only one way for things to play out for a hot character who nobody takes seriously. And I don't know anybody who comes to the table to be sexually harassed.

[Person_Man]

At the risk of killing cat girls, multiple studies have shown that "attractive" individuals (ie, people who fit within a particular set of physical stereotypes in the society you happen to be in at the time - tall, pale, small nosed, clear skin, slim or muscular, etc) are generally more likely to succeed in getting a job, more likely to negotiate higher wages, and are more likely to have people agree with them when interacting. So, all other things being equal, an attractive person is more likely to succeed then a less attractive person.

Thus a stunningly attractive person might still have a very low Charisma due to poor communication, personality, hygiene, etc. But their overall Charisma score would still be higher then another ugly individual who also has equally poor communication, personality, hygiene, etc.

Speaking as a big nosed mixed race mediocre looking individual, I wish it was different. But to simply wave beauty away and say that it's only what's inside and how you communicate that counts ignores a basic reality about humanity which the game seeks to replicate through Charisma. Individuals might be open minded, but as a race and society, we're judgmental jerks who like to divide people into categories and ranks.

[Knaight]

At the risk of killing cat girls, multiple studies have shown that "attractive" individuals (ie, people who fit within a particular set of physical stereotypes in the society you happen to be in at the time - tall, pale, small nosed, clear skin, slim or muscular, etc) are generally more likely to succeed in getting a job, more likely to negotiate higher wages, and are more likely to have people agree with them when interacting. So, all other things being equal, an attractive person is more likely to succeed then a less attractive person.
This would be significantly more pertinent if it weren't for the way Charisma is tied into magic, and the various high Charisma creatures that are downright horrific. It doesn't make sense for how good one looks to have any effect on how hard it is to dodge a fireball they throw, or for it to affect how well they brute force a magical device into working, or how well they rebuke a bunch of rotting corpses. Yet D&D charisma does exactly that.

[Conners]

The fact social skill links into magic in general is questionable in itself, though.

[Saph]

The fact social skill links into magic in general is questionable in itself, though.

Well, you've only got six attributes to play with. And given that Charisma is probably the single most popular dump stat, you can't deny it kind of needs the help.

[Conners]

The mechanics of it aren't so bad (at least I suppose--never looked at it super-closely). When comparing DnD with reality, you can get some good humour out of it.

[hewhosaysfish]

Yeah but the SRD also says "A demigod has anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand devoted mortal worshipers and may receive veneration or respect from many more."

Meaning that given the right feats I can make a level 12 character with enough followers to become a demigod RAW.

So if you just go by RAW and SRD, next time I play in one of your games I expect to be able to run a character with the alter reality divine power.

This may seem like an overly pedantic nitpick (and it is) but this is touching on a pet peeve of mine so I have to say something:

Stating that a demigod has some number of worshippers is not the same as stating that anyone who has the same number of worshippers becomes a demigod. The SRD makes the former statement, not the latter.

Now Forgotten Realms and Planescape (and Greyhawk, I believe) set things up to work that way - that worship creates divine power but Eberron, Dark Sun or (I think) Ravenloft don't. It's not a universal default assumption for every D&D setting.

[Kholai]

I think the single most succinct demonstration that beauty is not charisma:

Changelings.


Appear as anyone's ideal expression of beauty.
No charisma bonus for doing so.

[Saintheart]

Sure, Paris Hilton.

[Winter_Wolf]

"Statuesque" is a pretty accurate descriptor for someone who is gorgeous/pretty/beautiful but absolutely unattractive. Basically, beautiful in the way that a statue is: gracefully constructed, possibly flawless, and absolutely cold and emotionless.

I personally know a number of people who are beautiful to look upon, and provided all you are doing is looking, that's enough. When it comes to interacting with them, though, they are just horrible horrible horrible to be around. It's not even that their personalities are that bad, but there's just something that makes them insufferable.

Party A: "Oh, come on! Look around at all these people! Surely there's one that you can get along with. What about that one? What's wrong with that one?"

Party B: "Spend five minutes with them and you tell me."

Beauty vs. Attractiveness makes for a good argument for bringing back the comeliness stat in D&D.

[Emmerask]

I think the single most succinct demonstration that beauty is not charisma:

Changelings.


Appear as anyone's ideal expression of beauty.
No charisma bonus for doing so.


This just shows that d&d is not consistent within their rules... which actually is no big surprise ^^

[Manly Man]

You DO know that dragons, pit fiends, beholders, mind flayers, balors, and various and sundry hideous abominations against Gods and Humanoids have through-the-roof Charisma scores, right?


I dunno about you, but I think Beholders are EXTREMELY sexy~

I'm more of a mind flayer guy myself.

But seriously, all you really need to do is take a look at some of the ugliest and horrific things out there, and you have your answer.

Sibriex (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/fc1_gallery/98466.jpg): Cha 25.

Obox-ob (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v695/Gorbash/Fantasy/Obox-Ob.jpg): Cha 27.

Pale Night (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/fc1_gallery/98463.jpg): Cha 35. While the form you see is indeed subtly attractive, you need to remember that this is only a form she takes so that way she can actually be seen, because underneath that mistiness is a form so terrible your brain doesn't even register what it is that you just saw, or you die from the sight. Besides, what you do see of her is sort of creepy in the way that seeing something drop into the Uncanny Valley is. You see her, and you can tell that she does, for the most part, intend to look attractive, but like Hell you'd want to be anywhere within a hundred feet of her.

And these are just examples of especially ugly demons, not to mention all of the other things out there. I'm pretty sure that, unless you're a hardcore fan of Gargoyles, you wouldn't exactly be keen on the idea of bedding a horned devil or a pit fiend, but they've got the personality to sway you into doing it anyway.

[inexorabletruth]

Well, you've only got six attributes to play with. And given that Charisma is probably the single most popular dump stat, you can't deny it kind of needs the help.

I like to dump in CON, personally. I stay alive with my DEX and CHA. Most enemies either can't hit me, or just don't want to anymore. It's only recently that I've started building shy or grumpy beat sticks, and they tend to be a bit less fun to play. Sometimes, I think we take CHA for granted.

[Tengu_temp]

Without reading the whole thread, just answering the OP:

In DND 3e, physical appearance is a small deciding factor of charisma. It's okay to have a character who is physically beautiful but has low charisma, if it's played as a character with low charisma should - really shy and/or unlikable.

The problem is, I've seen many PCs who were described as attractive, were RPed as normal mid-to-high charisma PCs usually are, but had 8 or even less charisma. That is just bad roleplaying.

In general, I prefer how many other systems handle it. In Exalted, Appearance is a stat. In Mutants and Masterminds, Attractive is a feat (which you can take multiple times), and being particularily ugly can be considered a complication.

[huttj509]

Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder.
And the rest of the party is in the stomach of the Beholder.

Couldn't resist.

[snoopy13a]

A beautiful, shy person is still going to have somewhat decent charisma simply because they are physically attractive. I think 10 ought to be around the low point (and 10 is below average). An 8 is a signficantly low score. I don't think other negative traits could delegate a beautiful person into "8 territory."

Now an 8 Charisma doesn't necessarily mean the person is ugly. A shy, insecure person with average looks could be an 8.

[Agrippa]

A beautiful, shy person is still going to have somewhat decent charisma simply because they are physically attractive. I think 10 ought to be around the low point (and 10 is below average). An 8 is a signficantly low score. I don't think other negative traits could delegate a beautiful person into "8 territory."

Now an 8 Charisma doesn't necessarily mean the person is ugly. A shy, insecure person with average looks could be an 8.

Um, 10 is average.

[Jay R]

But seriously, all you really need to do is take a look at some of the ugliest and horrific things out there, and you have your answer.

Sibriex (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/fc1_gallery/98466.jpg): Cha 25.

Obox-ob (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v695/Gorbash/Fantasy/Obox-Ob.jpg): Cha 27.

Pale Night (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/fc1_gallery/98463.jpg): Cha 35.

Really? Can any of them cast an Escape spell or cause an earthquake by stomping?

[Knaight]

Um, 10 is average.

10.5 is average, not 10.

[Logic]

Of course. Though I personally dislike DMing for a group of male players/female characters that used CHARISMA as their dumpstat, only for all players to declare that their characters were hauntingly beautiful. One extreme example, I know.

It is one thing to allow players to decide the appearance of their character, but I also think your ability scores have some influence. Just my two cents.

[LibraryOgre]

It's easy; just be aware that a high Looks score will raise even a below-average Charisma... and 18 Looks Human can't do worse than a 7 Charisma without some flaws... but half-hobgoblins are always gonna be ugly, no matter how well you roll your 3d6. :smallbiggrin:

[Synovia]

By RAW, no. Charisma represents physical beauty.

However, I think that's absolutely stupid and I've not once ever met a DM who actually enforced it. "Oh, you have a zit, so now you can't activate wands as reliably."

According to raw, physical beauty is the least important of 5 things charisma represents (Force of Personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness)

So, yeah, by raw, you can be ugly as crap, and have high charisma. They even give an example, with the Kraken having a 21 Charisma.


Yeah but the SRD also says "A demigod has anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand devoted mortal worshipers and may receive veneration or respect from many more."

Meaning that given the right feats I can make a level 12 character with enough followers to become a demigod RAW.

So if you just go by RAW and SRD, next time I play in one of your games I expect to be able to run a character with the alter reality divine power.

This is a logical fallacy.

Its taking A leads to B, and assuming B leads to A, which isn't necessarily the case.

Another example of this "Dale Earnhard is a racecare driver and drives a chevy. I drive a chevy, so therefore I must be a racecar driver"

It says a demigod has so many worshippers. It doesn't say having worshippers makes you a demigod.

[Velaryon]

I always treat a character's appearance independently of their Charisma stat. My argument for Charisma not covering physical appearance is as follows: aging penalties. Technically a Venerable character has +3 charisma vs. what that same character had when they were younger. Now, quick show of hands: anybody here think 80 year-olds are more physically attractive than 20 year-olds?

Didn't think so. :smalltongue:

[Morithias]

I always treat a character's appearance independently of their Charisma stat. My argument for Charisma not covering physical appearance is as follows: aging penalties. Technically a Venerable character has +3 charisma vs. what that same character had when they were younger. Now, quick show of hands: anybody here think 80 year-olds are more physically attractive than 20 year-olds?

Didn't think so. :smalltongue:

Very good point.

[Manly Man]

He may not qualify for 'venerable' status just yet, but David Bowie is probably the greatest example of an older man that still looks good enough to steal your girlfriend, your bro's girlfriend, and all of your lesbian friends. Just saying.

[Morithias]

He may not qualify for 'venerable' status just yet, but David Bowie is probably the greatest example of an older man that still looks good enough to steal your girlfriend, your bro's girlfriend, and all of your lesbian friends. Just saying.

Yes, but the fact remains that the +3 charisma for aging doesn't apply just to David Bowie, but EVERYONE. Therefore in theory if charisma = physically attractiveness then RAW I should be able to show you before and after photos of ANYBODY and you should always 100% of the time say the after photo of him/her as an 80 year old is more attractive, assuming nothing damaged their charisma in the intervening years like a bestow curse spell.

[Emmerask]

Maybe its the same reason why your int goes up with age when in actuality your intelligence goes down (after going up first to the age of 18 (?)) because of brain deterioration.

And still attractiveness is only part of charisma not ALL of charisma, so we must assume that with age the other important factors go up significantly in the d&d universe (force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead) and only the attractiveness part goes down.

[Tengu_temp]

Yes, but the fact remains that the +3 charisma for aging doesn't apply just to David Bowie, but EVERYONE.

Clearly, in DND everyone is David Bowie. Think about it for a second.

And on the actual point, there is middle ground between "charisma and appearance are the same thing" and "charisma and appearance are completely unrelated", you know. Appearance is a small part of the charisma stat by rules, and while I can easily accept a high charisma character who is ridiculously ugly, a low-to-mid charisma character who nevertheless is described as gorgeous better make up for that by roleplaying that low charisma out.

[ThiagoMartell]

By RAW, no. Charisma represents physical beauty.

Yeah, mindflayers and beholders are beautiful.

[kyoryu]

Clearly, in DND everyone is David Bowie. Think about it for a second.

And on the actual point, there is middle ground between "charisma and appearance are the same thing" and "charisma and appearance are completely unrelated", you know. Appearance is a small part of the charisma stat by rules, and while I can easily accept a high charisma character who is ridiculously ugly, a low-to-mid charisma character who nevertheless is described as gorgeous better make up for that by roleplaying that low charisma out.

Charisma is in a lot of ways leadership ability. You don't have to be rude and obnoxious to have low charisma, or even unlikable - you just have to be the kind of person that people don't naturally follow. Scooby Doo has low Charisma - he may be likable, but nobody is going to follow him anywhere.

[Tengu_temp]

Yeah, mindflayers and beholders are beautiful.


From the SRD:

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting.

Like it or not, this is RAW. A high charisma ugly creature makes up for that with other traits described here. A low charisma beautiful creature should be lacking in those other traits, or else it's being roleplayed badly.

By the way, this thread should really be in the DND 3e forum.

[Synovia]

Its in the RAW as part of charisma, in one line, and then the next line directly contradicts it by saying "This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting".

Physical beauty is not something that is concrete, its completely based on the social setting (and the observers). Someone who is physically beautiful in an orc village is not going to be physically beautiful in an elven village, and vice versa.

Some guys like blondes, some like brunettes. Beauty, as such, is how one is perceived, and is dependant on the social settings cultural mores. IE, RAW says physical beauty is part of charisma, and not part of charisma. It contradicts itself.

[Emmerask]

you are mixing rl with d&d though which is never good (the whole system falls apart to be exact).

[Xzeno]

Charisma has nothing to do with physical attractiveness. It is not a measure of physical attractiveness. Attractiveness may contextually modify one's ability to influence others, but even picking up on the social queues required to use it correctly is a function of charisma.

In real life, I mean. In D&D 3.5, it is true, attractiveness is part of charisma. I think this is because it isn't really worth making its own stat, because it, unlike charisma, does not really reflect your worth in any meaningful way. And for some reason it had to be quantified. So in short, I'd personally recommend playing charisma the stat as charisma the personality trait rather than as the book says. That's just me, though.

This is partly because uncharismatic people can in fact look good realistically. For example, I'm one or two standard deviations above the norm in terms of looks, but I have the charisma of a damp rag. Being a stimulationist, I'd prefer a system be able to represent the distinction.

[The Random NPC]

Its in the RAW as part of charisma, in one line, and then the next line directly contradicts it by saying "This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting".

Physical beauty is not something that is concrete, its completely based on the social setting (and the observers). Someone who is physically beautiful in an orc village is not going to be physically beautiful in an elven village, and vice versa.

Some guys like blondes, some like brunettes. Beauty, as such, is how one is perceived, and is dependant on the social settings cultural mores. IE, RAW says physical beauty is part of charisma, and not part of charisma. It contradicts itself.

No it doesn't, it says that beauty is a part of charisma, and the next line says it isn't the only part. No contradiction there.

[Synovia]

No it doesn't, it says that beauty is a part of charisma, and the next line says it isn't the only part. No contradiction there.

The line says no such thing.

"This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting"

Physical beauty is not mentioned at all. It says the ability represents personality.

[Kholai]

This just shows that d&d is not consistent within their rules... which actually is no big surprise ^^

I would contend that D&D is actually rather consistent on this matter. Polymorph doesn't change Charisma, Alternate form (and Wild Shape with it) explicitly leaves you with the same Charisma. In fact, the text on Alternate Form specifically states: "Mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha)". Appearance is doubtfully a mental state.

Even Polymorph Any Object - which does grant intelligence - doesn't modify charisma, even if you changed the subject into a nymph.

One cannot make a disguise check to appear more attractive for a Charisma bonus.

If Charisma governs appearance, but modifying your appearance does not alter it whatsoever, then appearance must be worth less than a single point of Charisma.

Secondly, nothing indicates that charisma is apportioned equally among all aspects, someone can be perfectly average looking at 18 Charisma, but still manages to hush the room whenever they stand up. So since being hauntingly beautiful is worth 0.4999... at most, then you can have a 3 Charisma individual who is incredibly appealing to look at, but generates almost instant antipathy towards them for reasons nobody can understand.

Edit: Since healthy is almost invariably attractive, wouldn't Strength, Constitution and Dexterity all play a large role in appearance?

[Emmerask]

The thing is as a gamedesigner you have to strike the balance between complexity and ease of use.

Actually having charisma being effected by disguise checks would require a ton more stats to keep track of (ie the 5 traits that make up cha) then you have to modify appearance and calculate how much that would effect cha.
*

Its a ton of work for very little gain for the game system and for the player.

Similar for polymorph, it is primarily a mental stat (ie 4 out of 5 are mental) so again having to do a "complex" calculation (in comparison to the rest of d&d math) to get the exact effect is just too much effort for too little return.

D&D tries not to model reality perfectly, it approximates it very roughly so that the player can use the system with efficiency and ease.

But all of this doesn´t mean that your looks don´t play a role in your charisma score because raw clearly says that it does :smallwink:
And since we don´t have any number that says what has how much contribution we must accept that all of these 5 points contribute equally ie 20%.

So yes you can play a beautiful character with very low cha, but you better play the rest of the 4 subscores accordingly.

* actually you could make a similar point for spells that put you to sleep for example why does your charisma not drop then? Simple answer too much stat tracking for too little gain

[Synovia]

I think the answer here is pretty simple.


There's one line in the PHB that includes charisma as physical. There are hundreds of lines that refer to it as a mental stat. The most likely explanation is that the one line is a mistake.

[Emmerask]

No, the stat is mainly mental (80%) thats why its referred to as mental for ease of use for the players and the dm, writing "mental but with tiny physical part" is just confusing especially if they don´t want to add this into calculations (again so that the system is easy tu use).

It is however not a real contradiction.

[Synovia]

No, the stat is mainly mental (80%) thats why its referred to as mental for ease of use for the players and the dm, writing "mental but with tiny physical part" is just confusing especially if they don´t want to add this into calculations (again so that the system is easy tu use).

It is however not a real contradiction.

If its physical, even a tiny part, why does polymorph not give you bonuses or penalties? There's litteraly not a single example in the entire game where it being physical would make sense.

[Reluctance]

This is what happens when one tries to use D20 rules as if they were fully functioning universal laws.

And nobody has answered my question. Are the PCs beautiful just because the player wants their toon to look a certain way, or do they try to use their looks (and similar fluffy "skills" that they haven't spent points on) to some in-game advantage?

[Emmerask]

If its physical, even a tiny part, why does polymorph not give you bonuses or penalties? There's litteraly not a single example in the entire game where it being physical would make sense.

see my post above:



The thing is as a gamedesigner you have to strike the balance between complexity and ease of use.

Actually having charisma being effected by disguise checks would require a ton more stats to keep track of (ie the 5 traits that make up cha) then you have to modify appearance and calculate how much that would effect cha.
*

Its a ton of work for very little gain for the game system and for the player.

Similar for polymorph, it is primarily a mental stat (ie 4 out of 5 are mental) so again having to do a "complex" calculation (in comparison to the rest of d&d math) to get the exact effect is just too much effort for too little return.

D&D tries not to model reality perfectly, it approximates it very roughly so that the player can use the system with efficiency and ease.

But all of this doesn´t mean that your looks don´t play a role in your charisma score because raw clearly says that it does :smallwink:
And since we don´t have any number that says what has how much contribution we must accept that all of these 5 points contribute equally ie 20%.

So yes you can play a beautiful character with very low cha, but you better play the rest of the 4 subscores accordingly.

* actually you could make a similar point for spells that put you to sleep for example why does your charisma not drop then? Simple answer too much stat tracking for too little gain

[Menteith]

Charisma being tied to physical attractiveness makes absolutely no sense in a universe with differing interpretations of beauty. Throughout history, beauty has varied wildly, and is obviously a subjective trait. The ideals that current day society have created are hardly fundamentals, and assuming that a higher Charisma simply approaches those ideals is absurd. Charisma is a measure of a character's force of personality, their distinctiveness, their personal drive, and their ability to drive others.

[Synovia]

see my post above:

But if its just for simplicity sake, you'd be able to find examples where it wouldn't make sense that charisma is a mental stat. Where it got crushed down to "just beauty" or a spell only made sense with it being physical.


There aren't any of those. There's only one reference in all the hundreds of pages of 3.5 with charisma representing beauty, and its a throwaway fluff line, thats contradicted immediately.

[Emmerask]

Oh but there are very many examples where charisma as a mental stat doesn´t make sense, one example is being asleep, you still have exactly the same charisma as awake.

I don´t know about you but my force of personality/ability to lead/persuasiveness goes down considerably while I´m asleep.

Hence during sleep Charisma should drop but it doesn´t because they only approximated and didn´t want the rules cluttered with meaningless exceptions that don´t really make the game more enjoyable.

In fact during sleep I would argue that your looks are the most important part of charisma

Also as I said 4/5th of charisma are made up of mental traits, thats why it makes sense to condense it to mental :smallwink:

[Morithias]

Oh but there are very many examples where charisma as a mental stat doesn´t make sense, one example is being asleep, you still have exactly the same charisma as awake.

I don´t know about you but my force of personality/ability to lead/persuasiveness goes down considerably while I´m asleep.

Hence during sleep Charisma should drop but it doesn´t because they only approximated and didn´t want the rules cluttered with meaningless exceptions that don´t really make the game more enjoyable.

In fact during sleep I would argue that your looks are the most important part of charisma

Also as I said 4/5th of charisma are made up of mental traits, thats why it makes sense to condense it to mental :smallwink:

I would love to see you try to make a charisma based skill check when asleep. The reason it doesn't drop is because you're never going to use it. The DM is never going to say "You're asleep, roll me a diplomacy check."

I just thought of something. This is going to creep some of you out but...what about a sexy female robot. One who has no AI. You know basically some hyper realistic blow-up doll.

The thing is beautiful, but are you really ever going to argue "that thing has high charisma even though it lacks the bloody ability to speak and think for itself".

Saying a beautiful character can't have low charisma, is like saying to me that an book dumb character can't have high intelligence. He's a guy who doesn't care about knowledge and just wants to practice his rapier fighting, it doesn't make him an idiot.

[Andvare]

Yes. Are own world is really full of lots of examples: Dear God: Kim Kardasian, Pairs Hilton, Amy Winehouse, Kenda Wilkonsin, most 'reality stars'.


Kenda, is such a great example. Sure she looks great...but then as soon as she opens her mouth or does anything most people will be shocked and taken back.


And yes a low charisma person could look good, but just act like a jerk. Kinda like the stereotypical guy jerk from Europe, or the jock jerk, or the mean girl cheerleader.

I'm very proud to say that I had to Google Kenda Wilkonsin, because I had no clue who she was. Though I'm not too sure why I did Google her, seeing the company she is in in your post ;) .


On topic, the OP is right, though, that many people *cough*males*cough* that create beautiful characters with low charisma, doesn't show their low charisma in their roleplaying. A high charisma might be difficult to roleplay, but a low one is not. We all know how to behave like an ass, though to be fair to those mentioned above, to copy them, you'd have to also have a low intelligence and wisdom.

[Emmerask]

Not a check but you could potentially be effected by mummy rot or similar spells while asleep :smallwink:



Saying a beautiful character can't have low charisma, is like saying to me that an book dumb character can't have high intelligence. He's a guy who doesn't care about knowledge and just wants to practice his rapier fighting, it doesn't make him an idiot.

no one is saying that actually, most people jsut say if they are beautiful and have low charisma that means that their other substats (ie the mental ones) must be extremely low in that case (ie even lower then you charisma suggests), while an ugly character with a similarly low charisma will have higher force of personality etc.

[ThiagoMartell]

From the SRD:


Like it or not, this is RAW. A high charisma ugly creature makes up for that with other traits described here. A low charisma beautiful creature should be lacking in those other traits, or else it's being roleplayed badly.

By the way, this thread should really be in the DND 3e forum.

You missed the context on what I was saying, because I meant exactly what you said.
I was answering to a post saying that by RAW there can not be ugly creatures with high Charisma. That is obviously not true, as you have pointed out.

[Lord Tyger]

Pathfinder covers this with the Charming trait (Blessed with good looks, you’ve come to depend on the fact that others find you attractive), which gives you a bonus to bluff and diplomacy with characters that are potentially sexually attracted to you- while if that's the direction you're taking your character, you'll likely have a decent charisma bonus, it's not necessary, and represents a mechanical advantage based solely on physical attractiveness, while skirting around the differing standards of beauty by specifying it only works on creatures that are likely to find your sort of creature attractive.

[Reluctance]

Pathfinder covers this with the Charming trait (Blessed with good looks, you’ve come to depend on the fact that others find you attractive), which gives you a bonus to bluff and diplomacy with characters that are potentially sexually attracted to you- while if that's the direction you're taking your character, you'll likely have a decent charisma bonus, it's not necessary, and represents a mechanical advantage based solely on physical attractiveness, while skirting around the differing standards of beauty by specifying it only works on creatures that are likely to find your sort of creature attractive.

Then again, this is D&D. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm)

[ThiagoMartell]

Then again, this is D&D. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm)

I know this is a joke, but considering reproduction and sexual intercourse happen only when there is physical attractiveness involved is a very narrow and very wrong view.

[Menteith]

You missed the context on what I was saying, because I meant exactly what you said.
I was answering to a post saying that by RAW there can not be ugly creatures with high Charisma. That is obviously not true, as you have pointed out.

Agreed. Also, I'd really like to have a definition of beauty, for individuals saying that Charisma and physical attractiveness are tied together, as clearly there's a fundamental "attractiveness" that everything strives for, right? Otherwise, saying that you become more attractive makes no sense (given that it's a highly subjective term, unless there's a fundamental "beauty"). So would someone explain to me what beauty is, please?

[Lord Tyger]

Of course, personality can also be subjective. What one person finds cute another might find annoying, what one person sees as force of personality, another might call pushy or stubbornness.

[whibla]

I am suprised no-one has mentioned the '7th' stat, so far, namely Comeliness.

"Comeliness reflects physical attractiveness, social grace, and personal beauty of the character. It is used to determine initial reactions to the character, and characters with a high comliness may affect the wills and actions of others. While Charisma deals specifically with leadership and interactions between characters, comeliness deals with attractiveness and first impressions.
Comeliness is not charisma. Charisma, however can affect comeliness..."

Note, it didn't work the other way around. No matter how stunningly attractive, or hideously ugly, you might be, it made no difference to your charisma.

Tbf, comliness as a stat never crossed versions, not suprisingly, but it does mostly sum up the difference, and interactions between physical beauty and charisma. As many people have said race shoud play a part in beauty, and different races got modifiers to their comeliness scores. And as other people have said, we've all met people who are stunningly beautiful, who have the personality of a pot of yoghurt (but less culture). And, of course, as someone else mentioned, when you met a truly charismatic person you no longer 'notice' what they look like...well, I paraphrase.

In short, simple answer to the OP, yes. And vice versa.

[Dr.Epic]

Okay folks, I'm only gonna say this once so pay close attention:

charisma=/=physical looks, physical attractiveness, and/or physical beauty
charisma=social skills, wittiness, and/or the ability to connect with people and/or convince them of something

We clear?

[mucco]

(edit to the guy above me: no we are not and you are wrong. :smalltongue:)

Aging bonuses is a moot point. By the same reasoning, old people see better, hear better, and can memorize stuff faster, and can solve math problems more easily. You can justify and simultanously confute the argument for aging bonuses very easily, for all three mental ability scores. It does not bring anything to the table.

In RL, Charisma and beauty are correlated. More beautiful people are naturally more attractive to both sexes; also, they learn how to properly use their bodies better, because they subconsciously react and adapt to all the attentions they're receiving and thus practice a lot. It is very easy to see beautiful people who behave excellently and are generally great company and interesting people, when they are among those who they consider equal (this is important). These people will have a body language that reflects their beauty, and will often impose their personality. Sometimes they will do it in an arrogant way - but Charisma and arrogance can go hand in hand perfectly sometimes.

I see people say there are plenty of stars who are beautiful and behave in a very un-charismatic way. But I strongly disagree. Look at them. They have tons of lovers, they have tons of haters. They influence the lives of millions of people everyday just by making us talk about them. They're influential. They are not the kind of person that makes you go "meh" and move on. You will behold every single crazy act of the starlet/sport star of your choice, and have feelings for them. They're very influential people, which means they clearly have some Charisma.

Football (soccer) example: Messi and Ronaldo. They are about as good on the pitch, they are rivals, one of them is very good looking and also a jerk, the other one is not-so-good looking but is said to be a very chill dude. Who's more charismatic? If you know football, you know there is no contest. The jerk is the indisputed leader of his club and national team, while the other despite being awarded tons of prizes every year manages to be "just another guy" in a team with many, less good but more influential, players.

tl;dr Charisma does not equal but is correlated to beauty.

[Emmerask]

Okay folks, I'm only gonna say this once so pay close attention:

charisma=/=physical looks, physical attractiveness, and/or physical beauty
charisma=social skills, wittiness, and/or the ability to connect with people and/or convince them of something

We clear?


You are correct if you talk about real life (well the case can still be argued but anyway), but we talk about d&d here (and raw d&d at that), an approximation where shortcuts are used constantly to reduce complexity and there you are wrong :smallwink:



Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.

[Menteith]

Of course, personality can also be subjective. What one person finds cute another might find annoying, what one person sees as force of personality, another might call pushy or stubbornness.

Absolutely - that's why I'd consider Charisma to be drive, both in oneself and others. The ability to motivate people (including yourself), in different methods. This is why Intimidate, Bluff, and Diplomacy are all governed by the same stat, despite being dramatically different means of persuasion.

[The Random NPC]

The line says no such thing.

"This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting"

Physical beauty is not mentioned at all. It says the ability represents personality.

Upon rereading the section in question, I can see how it can be interpreted both ways. I've always read "not merely how one is perceived" to reference physical beauty.

[Slipperychicken]

Physical attractiveness is just one of several factors which determine charisma. I really wish my friends would understand this, so they wouldn't go on about how ugly my Wizard is..


Charisma (Cha)
Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting.


Force of Personality
Persuasiveness
Personal Magnetism
Ability to Lead
Physical Attractiveness


There are four other determinants of Charisma, and many historical figures are/were charismatic but not physically beautiful (someone already supplied a list around page 2 or 3 of the thread). The idea that it's just looks is absolutely wrong. It's like saying that Intelligence only represents math skills; sure, that's one part of it, but there's so much more to it.

[Psyren]

Natural sorcerers - even better at it than dragons.
22+ Cha.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060515194714/forgottenrealms/images/6/64/Phaerimm.jpg

Beautiful, aren't they?

(And don't get me started on ELH.)

[Emmerask]

Natural sorcerers - even better at it than dragons.
22+ Cha.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060515194714/forgottenrealms/images/6/64/Phaerimm.jpg

Beautiful, aren't they?

(And don't get me started on ELH.)

Cha 22
Force of Personality 28
Persuasiveness 26
Personal Magnetism 28
Ability to Lead 27
Physical Attractiveness 1

Still completely works :smallwink:

Oh and some people wanted an example where cha is attractiveness in the rules well what about:

Mummy rot
It targets Fortitude (ie health and vitality) and not will (against mental influence). It also has no influence on other mental faculties so we must assume that it only targets the body not the mind.
Therefore the only reasonable explanation why charisma is drained by that disease
can be that the physical attractiveness is lowered by it.

If it would be different then it would either have the [mind] sub or would allow a separate save against will to ignore the cha dmg.

[TuggyNE]

Mummy rot
It targets Fortitude (ie health and vitality) and not will (against mental influence). It also has no influence on other mental faculties so we must assume that it only targets the body not the mind.
Therefore the only reasonable explanation why charisma is drained by that disease
can be that the physical attractiveness is lowered by it.

If it would be different then it would either have the [mind] sub or would allow a separate save against will to ignore the cha dmg.

The flaw in this reasoning is that there are a lot of effects that target Fort saves to hit mental stats: a good many poisons, for example, several diseases, and some spells and powers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicVampire.htm) do.

[Emmerask]

damn you are correct there :-/

[Reluctance]

I just had an evil thought.

There's a certain measurement that, if a quick Wikipedia search is to be believed, averages out to a little over five inches.

Average for 3d6 is 10.5, half of which is 5.25.

I know this has zero backing in the rules. But from an unfortunately large number of gamers I've known, linking said measurement to CHA/2 would do a lot to cut down on CHA dumping.

[Morithias]

I just had an evil thought.

There's a certain measurement that, if a quick Wikipedia search is to be believed, averages out to a little over five inches.

Average for 3d6 is 10.5, half of which is 5.25.

I know this has zero backing in the rules. But from an unfortunately large number of gamers I've known, linking said measurement to CHA/2 would do a lot to cut down on CHA dumping.

Yeah, except sexual ability is a perform (sex) check, and as any girl or gay man can tell you, bigger =/= better in bed.

Also what would that mean for my Red Lotus assassin, assuming their was an equal correlation for women, what would her 76 charisma measure to?

*shivers* I'd hate to think if I made her a man, 38 inches...*shivers* nightmare fuel.

[jaybird]

Yeah, except sexual ability is a perform (sex) check, and as any girl or gay man can tell you, bigger =/= better in bed.


No, but thicker=better to a biologically reasonable extent.

At any rate, in real life, CHA is linked to physical attractiveness. Note all the studies that show how attractive people earn more money, get better treatment, etc etc. Of course, it's also mental, but there's an integral physical component. In D&D, CHA is also linked to physical attractiveness, per the rules.

[Menteith]

At any rate, in real life, CHA is linked to physical attractiveness. Note all the studies that show how attractive people earn more money, get better treatment, etc etc. Of course, it's also mental, but there's an integral physical component. In D&D, CHA is also linked to physical attractiveness, per the rules.

My problem with this is that in real life, we're still working on a fairly set standard for attractiveness, which isn't the case in D&D. In a universe with thousands of different sentient species, many of them with very nonhuman characteristics, what does attractiveness mean? Like, does a high Charisma Beholder or Dragon conform to human ideals of beauty, or their own racial ideals (if any)? If there are multiple societies in a setting, that have different and mutually exclusive qualities considered attractive (say, for example, how much someone weighs), does a high Charisma mean a person is more attractive just to their own society, and they're ass-ugly to everyone else?

Physical attractiveness is a meaningless term without context, and it's not physically possible to be attractive to every race in a traditional D&D setting given massive biological differences. Or are you arguing that it's solely physical attractiveness toward one's original culture?

[jaybird]

Physical attractiveness is a meaningless term without context, and it's not physically possible to be attractive to every race in a traditional D&D setting given massive biological differences. Or are you arguing that it's solely physical attractiveness toward one's original culture?

Hmm...difficult point. I feel like greater relevance is physical attractiveness toward one's original culture, or whatever the being in question was brought up in. From the generally preferential treatment attractive beings receive, it could be argued that they possess more self-confidence from their upbringing, and so are more "charismatic".

Or I could be spewing a load of crap, because let's face it, 3.5 isn't exactly the gold standard for a consistent and realistic world-building ruleset :smallbiggrin:

[ericgrau]

Simple, looks are only one factor. Someone can look good and have a horrible personality. By D&D rules their good looks might still count for a little charisma, but it's not everything.

That's purely what the rules say on it. Yes, you can get philisophical about looks too, but that gets into fudge territory. For that the easiest rule to use in a system that doesn't get into such detail is the +2 circumstance bonus fudge rule in the DMG.

[ThiagoMartell]

Simple, looks are only one factor. Someone can look good and have a horrible personality. By D&D rules their good looks might still count for a little charisma, but it's not everything.

That's purely what the rules say on it. Yes, you can get philisophical about looks too, but that gets into fudge territory. For that the easiest rule to use in a system that doesn't get into such detail is the +2 circumstance bonus fudge rule in the DMG.

Yes, exactly.
You win this thread.

[Meianleader]

I just always thought:
truenamers can tell the universe to change and it does, so this means the universe can be influenced
charisma is one's force of personality
so, using your strong personality, you basically force the universe to deem you better looking
the universe doesn't care what race you are, it will just register you as better looking, and thus force this upon anyone you interact with, which would explain why your charisma modifier would apply on the diplomacy check to any species
additionally, with there being so many humans with such grand ambitions (humannoid races as well), their accumulative force of personality has effected the universe enough to slant it's judgement more in favor of human-looking creatures when it comes to looks
finally, creatures like the beholder just have that much of an ego and determination/power that they are able to influence the universe to register them as good looking

[Zerter]

Football (soccer) example: Messi and Ronaldo. They are about as good on the pitch, they are rivals, one of them is very good looking and also a jerk, the other one is not-so-good looking but is said to be a very chill dude. Who's more charismatic? If you know football, you know there is no contest. The jerk is the indisputed leader of his club and national team, while the other despite being awarded tons of prizes every year manages to be "just another guy" in a team with many, less good but more influential, players.

First: they are not about as good on the pitch, winning the Ballon d'Or three years in a row and breaking the all-time world record of goals scored puts one above the other (and in the company of the likes of Cruijff and Maradona).

Second: Ronaldo comes across as insecure, someone that desperatly needs to prove himself, be flattered and handle defeats poorly. He's in the spotlight because he wants to be there badly, not because he's a leader of any kind. Messi comes across as secure, his defining trait is that he does not seek the spotlight whereas every other player of his status ever (all two of them) is a complete egomaniac. The difference? Messi is loved around the globe and his team-mates work their ass off for him. Ronaldo is disliked globally and critized for having his teams revolve around him too much, claiming every free kick despite missing 40 in a row. Messi leads by not leading, it would in fact be easier for him to do what Ronaldo does, but what Messi does leads to better teamplay and more popularity. There's no contest indeed and obvious that Messi has the higher charisma (not to mention dexterity, intelligence and wisdom).

[ThiagoMartell]

First: they are not about as good on the pitch, winning the Ballon d'Or three years in a row and breaking the all-time world record of goals scored puts one above the other (and in the company of the likes of Cruijff and Maradona).

Second: Ronaldo comes across as insecure, someone that desperatly needs to prove himself, be flattered and handle defeats poorly. He's in the spotlight because he wants to be there badly, not because he's a leader of any kind. Messi comes across as secure, his defining trait is that he does not seek the spotlight whereas every other player of his status ever (all two of them) is a complete egomaniac. The difference? Messi is loved around the globe and his team-mates work their ass off for him. Ronaldo is disliked globally and critized for having his teams revolve around him too much, claiming every free kick despite missing 40 in a row. Messi leads by not leading, it would in fact be easier for him to do what Ronaldo does, but what Messi does leads to better teamplay and more popularity. There's no contest indeed and obvious that Messi has the higher charisma (not to mention dexterity, intelligence and wisdom).

I just have to point out that there are three players at that level. Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo and Santos' Neymar.

[Menteith]

Hmm...difficult point. I feel like greater relevance is physical attractiveness toward one's original culture, or whatever the being in question was brought up in. From the generally preferential treatment attractive beings receive, it could be argued that they possess more self-confidence from their upbringing, and so are more "charismatic".

Alright, sweet, so now we have something to discuss. So if a character's beauty (as defined by their charisma) is only with regard to their initial culture/upbringing, then isn't it entirely reasonable to say that my short, stout dwarf with a twisted face is beautiful if those are the traits that her culture finds appealing, and if I play this character outside the confines of her society (which I will in most games), then isn't it also accurate to say that her Charisma score does nothing for her physical attractiveness with regard to other cultures (and thus, be the two qualities be complete unrelated?)

This can also be applied in reverse, to answer the OP's question - yes, it is possible for a character beautiful to humans to have a low charisma.

[jaybird]

Alright, sweet, so now we have something to discuss. So if a character's beauty (as defined by their charisma) is only with regard to their initial culture/upbringing, then isn't it entirely reasonable to say that my short, stout dwarf with a twisted face is beautiful if those are the traits that her culture finds appealing, and if I play this character outside the confines of her society (which I will in most games), then isn't it also accurate to say that her Charisma score does nothing for her physical attractiveness with regard to other cultures (and thus, be the two qualities be complete unrelated?)

This can also be applied in reverse, to answer the OP's question - yes, it is possible for a character beautiful to humans to have a low charisma.

I suppose you're right - it wouldn't. However, the high self-esteem and confidence in dealing with others that she gets from growing up in a society that DOES consider her attractive remains in her mentality, and that does positively influence Charisma almost universally.

[Menteith]

I suppose you're right - it wouldn't. However, the high self-esteem and confidence in dealing with others that she gets from growing up in a society that DOES consider her attractive remains in her mentality, and that does positively influence Charisma almost universally.

Sure, so long as the society is similar enough to 21st century human society, the mindset of the organism is similar enough to a 21st century human, and the biology of the organism is similar enough to human. How about something like a Warforged, who doesn't reproduce, or Mind Flayers, who have an alternate means of reproduction, or Changlings who lack a fixed form? Or even just having a society/culture that considers nonvisible characteristics far more important than physical appearance - I don't think it's unreasonable to say that traits like loyalty and competence may be far more important in a halfling town, that intelligence and creativity may be far more important in an elven village, or that piety and diligence may be far more important to dwarves. Or it could simply be that creatures may not assign any important to their physical traits. What is and isn't attractive is going to vary significantly from group to group, and "beauty" certainly doesn't have to be physical. So one could easily play a "beautiful" character according to contemporary standards who lacks a force of personality. A directionless, passive, or forgettable person who doesn't stand out in any really important way.

Look, linking Charisma and beauty just doesn't make sense without a massive amount of assumptions...and even then, it doesn't hold true a significant amount of the time (whenever an individual is outside their own culture).

[Zale]

Cha 22
Force of Personality 28
Persuasiveness 26
Personal Magnetism 28
Ability to Lead 27
Physical Attractiveness 1

Still completely works :smallwink:

Oh and some people wanted an example where cha is attractiveness in the rules well what about:




I rather like the idea of having the average of the various traits a score represents making up the total..

I may actually use that to help flesh out a character at some point.

EDIT:

Also, you can make a Pretty, Low Cha person by making them incredibly creepy.

A permanent smile with dead, unblinking eyes and a habit staring off into space and singing softly will make anyone a touch creepy.

[jaybird]

the quote was too long

Alright, that's fair. I have been looking at it from a 21st century human perspective, you're right.

[Dr.Epic]

Natural sorcerers - even better at it than dragons.
22+ Cha.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060515194714/forgottenrealms/images/6/64/Phaerimm.jpg

Beautiful, aren't they?

(And don't get me started on ELH.)

Well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder...
...unfortunately, the party is in its stomach!
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[Menteith]

Alright, that's fair. I have been looking at it from a 21st century human perspective, you're right.

Well, you're not wrong...if that's how the campaign/setting is prepared. It's entirely possible that you're correct....but it's also not an assumed fact, especially once nonhuman races get brought into it. The question was "Can a beautiful character have low charisma", to which I wholeheartedly say, yes.

[Zale]

Well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder...
...unfortunately, the party is in its stomach!
:smallbiggrin:
:smallbiggrin:
:smallbiggrin:
:smallbiggrin:
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:smallbiggrin:


Ha. That was amusing.

[huttj509]

Sure, so long as the society is similar enough to 21st century human society, the mindset of the organism is similar enough to a 21st century human, and the biology of the organism is similar enough to human. How about something like a Warforged, who doesn't reproduce, or Mind Flayers, who have an alternate means of reproduction, or Changlings who lack a fixed form? Or even just having a society/culture that considers nonvisible characteristics far more important than physical appearance - I don't think it's unreasonable to say that traits like loyalty and competence may be far more important in a halfling town, that intelligence and creativity may be far more important in an elven village, or that piety and diligence may be far more important to dwarves. Or it could simply be that creatures may not assign any important to their physical traits. What is and isn't attractive is going to vary significantly from group to group, and "beauty" certainly doesn't have to be physical. So one could easily play a "beautiful" character according to contemporary standards who lacks a force of personality. A directionless, passive, or forgettable person who doesn't stand out in any really important way.

Look, linking Charisma and beauty just doesn't make sense without a massive amount of assumptions...and even then, it doesn't hold true a significant amount of the time (whenever an individual is outside their own culture).


For example, a dwarven mining settlement (or any mining settlement) could have the outlook of "sure she's decorative, but freaking useless otherwise." Someone raised there might lack self confidence and be eager to prove her worth, while ignoring her looks ("why are they staring at me?"), or be bitter at the 'normal folk who don't appreciate I'm a goddess" for a very different possible reaction from the same initial situation.

[lemeres]

I suppose you're right - it wouldn't. However, the high self-esteem and confidence in dealing with others that she gets from growing up in a society that DOES consider her attractive remains in her mentality, and that does positively influence Charisma almost universally.

So Charisma can be better defined as one's self-concept. A person who was always told they are pretty growing up will 1.) Feel pretty, raising confidence (which helps with leadership), and 2.) become more conscious of their ability to influence other's opinions (helping diplomacy, bluff, disguise, etc.)

The lack of changes to charisma in different societies also ties into this. A charismatic person will be able to discount nay-sayers by calling them 'jealous' (or with the female dwarf example, she could discount insults in an elf city by considering them 'scrawny twits'). By comparison, a shy yet beautiful person would allow the insults to stick because they might not consider themselves beautiful in the first place. The lack of change during polymorph helps to confirm the connection to self concept. A person turned into a toad will not consider themselves ugly because they do not self identify with the new form. If they stayed like that for years, maybe there could be an effect, but would be irrelevant game-wise (since trapping a PC like that would just be sadistic).

The disconnection between beauty and self concept that actually affects charisma is demonstrated with the age modifiers. An 80 year old human knows he might no longer be an Adonis, but the increased experience with age can allow them to think themselves "wise" instead. The ugly but charismatic characters suggested throughout this thread value themselves through their words rather than looks.

This idea helps to explain the high charisma on demons beyond mere differences in opinions on attractive features. Since evil is usually characterized as sacrificing anything in the pursuit of power, a demon's sense of beauty is about their ability to dominate others. They do not care is they are all "soft and sparkly." So while a human's sense of beauty is about 'appeal,' asking others to follow, a demon will 'order' you to follow. The -2 penalty on Tieflings reinforces the cultural shift in perspective from looks because their appearances are trapped between their two bloodlines. The racism based upon their looks (and the supernatural presence of "wrongness" some have) are too domineering for the human societies they grow up in. At the same time, they are too human, lacking the supernatural prowess that would allow them to independently develop a fixation upon their own power seen in demons.

[INoKnowNames]

I started a thread over this a while ago. Lots of different personality types and such can be keyed to having a low Charisma, but this doesn't necesarally lock your body type to it, either. Not to mention there's a lot of things that are the exact opposite: Ugly/Horrific, yet having such Charisma that they should be considered Will Smith Sexy if Charisma completely governed appearance, rather than just being slightly linked to it, and really only in fluff alone.

I personally say let Str, Dex, and Con have a bit to do with appearance as well, since well Muscled (Str), Thin (Dex), and Healthy (Con) people tend to look a little better than scrawny/pathetic, obese, and sickly people do.

[Wyntonian]

If I had my way, I'd just call it Presence and be done with it. Force of personality, from how well you can seduce the laws of nature into letting you have your way with them to how well you can tell a pile of rotting corpses to GTFO.


Related: Is there anything that says that flavor text is RAW? Anything at all? I figured it was just there for the pleasure (?) of reading, not so a Player can look it up and say "Yeah, it's a rule, dwarves live primarily underground. Sorry DM, your seafaring dwarves don't work by RAW".