Crescent Knives (Enhancement)

[Jonsnowghost]

a) can I give the speed enhancement to Crescent Knives???

b) if I did would I gain two additional attacks: 1st due to speed giving an extra attack, and the 2nd because the Crescent Knives allow me to make an additional attack whenever I attack.

[Diarmuid]

Where are Crescent knives from?

Most 3.5 sources have a caveat rider for extra attack functions that states they do not stack with other extra attack functions. I would say if that's not there for the Crescent Knives, then it should work...but that's without having seen the original source text.

[Jonsnowghost]

Dragon Magazine 275

This weapon, which resembles a crescent shaped blade affixed to a crossbar handle, allows it wielder to make two simultaneous attack rolls (using the same modifier) each time he attacks with it. Each attack is resolved separately.

Exotic 1d3 20/x2 1lb Slashing

[Wyntonian]

a) can I give the speed enhancement to Crescent Knives???

b) if I did would I gain two additional attacks: 1st due to speed giving an extra attack, and the 2nd because the Crescent Knives allow me to make an additional attack whenever I attack.

A. I don't see why not. A lot of things (Haste, Frenzying, Speed enchant) specify that they don't stack, but this says nothing of the sort.

B. Yeah, it would appear so. You'd get 3 attacks, 2 from the knife, 1 from speed.

Lastly, my totally-not-RAW-or-even-really-RAI 2 cp is that you're using a weapon that deals 1d3 20/2x. You won't be crit-fishing, you spent a feat for this thing, and if you hit and max out with all three dice you deal... 9 damage. Really, the best part is that you can add your str to damage three times, effectively, but that requires that you hit three times. I'd allow it, RAW be damned, because it doesn't really give you that much of a benefit.

[dascarletm]

I'd allow it, RAW be damned, because it doesn't really give you that much of a benefit.

Sneak attack?:smallbiggrin:

[Reluctance]

RAW, it's either capped at two (if you rule that "attack" means any use of an action to attack an enemy), or more likely, that every attack roll becomes two. Yay sloppy wording.

The first is unplayable while the second is brokenly good. Allowing one extra attack which stacks everything else sounds about fair for an exotic weapon with nothing else going for it.

[Ryulin18]

Damage comes from sneak attack.

16 attacks, all hit.
That's 16d3 (meh)
Plus strength or dex or whatever crazy build you made
plus 160d6...:smallannoyed:

[Eldest]

My list of good exotic weapons has gone from two (Spiked Chain, Gnomish Quickrazor) to three now.

[Keld Denar]

Obviously, since it's hitting twice per swing, you want a /hit enhancement like Wounding to get the most bang for your buck. 2 Con drained per "attack", thats nice.

[ThiagoMartell]

My list of good exotic weapons has gone from two (Spiked Chain, Gnomish Quickrazor) to three now.

There are many others. Spinning sword, mercurial longsword, flindbar, dragonsplits, braidblades...

[2xMachina]

I read it that every attack is done twice. So 20 BAB? Hit 4x2 times. With speed? 5x2 times.

[animewatcha]

2xmachina has it right. The crescent knife in one hand, and reach weapon in other. Reach weapon does tripping and such ( maybe offhand since they touch attacks ). While your guy inches closer and when in 'melee range'. 2 attack rolls per 'declaration of attack in full attack' potentially 2 dungeoncrashes per 'declaration of attack in full attack' for the knives.

[Bloodgruve]

The Scourge is on that list also but states the wielder makes three attack rolls.. These are both 3E, have they been reprinted in 3.5?

Blood~

[NichG]

Iaijutsu (though its no Quickrazor), power attack with an oversized version of the weapon so its medium instead of light, etc. There are lots of ways to take advantage of many attacks on a weapon with basically zero base damage.

[Jonsnowghost]

If I get the speed enhancment I am getting +6/+6/+6/+6/+6/+6/+6/+6 at level 6 dealing 1d3+2(+6+4d6 when I sneak attack)

Not bad right?

[Jonsnowghost]

So that is a potential of 8d3+16+48+32d6 a round when sneak attacking (104 min damage -280 max damage: 208 - 560 with a confirmed crit) provided they all hit.

[DeusMortuusEst]

Add some thrii-kreen to that and the MWF feat-chain to increase the number of attacks. LA +2 (non-psionic version) makes it possible to buy-off before lvl 20.

[BRC]

That weapon is kind of broken. Not only does it increase your chance to hit (since you get two rolls), but it means all extra damage may be applied twice.

Were I the DM I would rule that each attack only adds half of any extra damage, but I'm not the DM. If your DM will let you use this thing as written, more power to you.

[DeusMortuusEst]

If I get the speed enhancment I am getting +6/+6/+6/+6/+6/+6/+6/+6 at level 6 dealing 1d3+2(+6+4d6 when I sneak attack)

Not bad right?

The +6 is from craven? If no, then get it asap.

[Jonsnowghost]

The +6 is from craven? If no, then get it asap.

Yeah it is from Craven.

[Tvtyrant]

Or you could use it with Dragonfire Inspiration for mad elemental damage!

[ThiagoMartell]

Or you could use it with Dragonfire Inspiration for mad elemental damage!

Or Ferocity of Sanguine Rage for added crit potential.

[Agent 451]

The Scourge is on that list also but states the wielder makes three attack rolls.. These are both 3E, have they been reprinted in 3.5?

Blood~

The scourge was updated (and significantly nerfed) in Complete Warrior if I recall.

[2xMachina]

If I get the speed enhancment I am getting +6/+6/+6/+6/+6/+6/+6/+6 at level 6 dealing 1d3+2(+6+4d6 when I sneak attack)

Not bad right?

I'm missing something. How do you get 4 attacks at +6 base?

Isn't 6 BAB normally: 6/1
With speed: 6/6/1?

[ThiagoMartell]

I'm missing something. How do you get 4 attacks at +6 base?

Isn't 6 BAB normally: 6/1
With speed: 6/6/1?

Probably Two-weapon Fighting.

[Jonsnowghost]

Probably Two-weapon Fighting.

You are correct. I am indeed Two-weapon fighting, my BAB is +4 but with my various feats etc it is higher, so Dual-wielding equals 2 attacks x2 when using crescent knives.

[whibla]

You are correct. I am indeed Two-weapon fighting, my BAB is +4 but with my various feats etc it is higher, so Dual-wielding equals 2 attacks x2 when using crescent knives.

Um, what? What feats actually increase your base attack bonus, thereby increasing the number of iterative attacks you get, as opposed to merely granting you a bonus to hit?

Actually never mind, I think you're misusing the term, but that's a minor point. I also think you're gaining two too many attacks, as haste specifies that you "may make one extra attack with any weapon you're holding" not one extra attack with each weapon you're holding. The line that follows adds weight to the fact that, irrespective of how many weapons you have, you only gain 1 additional attack.

Single Attack (with W.K) +4 (b) / +4 (bw)
Dual Wield (with W.K) +2 (b) / +2 (bw) // +2 (b) / +2 (bw)
Hasted Dual Wield (with W.K) +2 (h) / +2 (hw) / +2 (b) / +2 (bw) // +2 (b) / +2 (bw) (only 6 attacks, not 8 like you suggested)

I gotta get my rogue a pair of these I think...and just hope my hide skill is sufficient to be able to avoid my DM :smallconfused:

[Eldest]

I think he's got a total bonus to attack of +8, -2 for two weapon fighting, so all of his attacks are at +6. No idea about the number of attacks, though.

[2xMachina]

The most interesting part is why there's no 1 Bab attack.

At 6BAB, you hit at 6/1, not 6/6


Didn't see... anyway.
It's less than 6 BAB. Thus Normal1/Speed1/Normal2/Speed2. Then doubled with Crescent.

[whibla]

It's less than 6 BAB. Thus Normal1/Speed1/Normal2/Speed2. Then doubled with Crescent.

Speed2?

Are you suggesting that haste gives you an additional attack with every weapon you're holding?

If so, can you provide some reference to this please?

[Diarmuid]

No, he's thinking that having the Speed enhancement on both weapons works.

I think thats a contested topic itself, which I'm not looking to get into, but it should help clear things up a bit.

[whibla]

No, he's thinking that having the Speed enhancement on both weapons works.

I think thats a contested topic itself, which I'm not looking to get into, but it should help clear things up a bit.

Ah, thank you.

I should probably re-read the thread, top to bottom, before posting next time. Might save my misunderstandings and stupid questions... :smalleek:

[ThiagoMartell]

He has two speed weapons at level... what? 6? 8?
That's pretty weird.

[TuggyNE]

He has two speed weapons at level... what? 6? 8?
That's pretty weird.

Yeah, good point. Who can afford two +4 equivalent weapons at level 6 or level 8? That's 64k+, which you shouldn't even have, period, before about level 11, and even then, spending essentially all your WBL on weapons is a terribad idea.

[Rhatahema]

From my read, anytime you would attack once with the crescent knife, you attack twice, with all the same attack modifiers. It was published in the second issue of Dragon Magazine to be released after 3rd Edition, and unlike most of the other weapons in the article, it was never revised or reprinted. It's stupid overpowered, and I think you'd have a hard time finding a DM that would allow it.

Optimization seems pretty straightforward though. Just take any build that focuses on multiweapon fighting and throw in exotic weapon proficiency (crescent knife). Then again, most melee builds would benefit from twice as many attacks. Wield a crescent knife two size categories too large two-handed at a -4 penalty with your frenzied berserker or warhulk, for instance.

[Socratov]

Yeah, good point. Who can afford two +4 equivalent weapons at level 6 or level 8? That's 64k+, which you shouldn't even have, period, before about level 11, and even then, spending essentially all your WBL on weapons is a terribad idea.

yes it is a bad idea, unless you plan on only fighting and killing stuff before it kills you (mainly 1HKO everyone you encounter)