Bullying in schools/cultural difference [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Venser

2012-07-11, 06:41 AM

Hello :P

I study psychology at the university and, while doing a research on teen violence and what causes it, I have stumbled upon something interesting. People say that bullying at schools is a worldwide problem that it happens everywhere. It might be true, although there are some exceptions. For example, where I come from, there was not a single bully in almost every school in town. Seriously. After researching the possible cause of this, I came to a conclusion, based on the school/highschools stories of others and mine personal, that the main reason behind that is simply a cultural thing. While children in America are getting bullied and getting their asses kicked, children here, in case they might be bullied (for example, a kid comes to another kid and starts making fun of him etc) stand up for themselves immediately and start fighting back.

Now, I know that the main reason for this is not the society we live in, because here society couldn't give less of a crap if you are being bullied or not. The other explanation is that it could be a genetic thing, but hey, I am no expert at that field so I am just going to let that theory rest for now.

Now, while I was researching the ''bullying problem'' in my country, I was also reading about bullying in other countries and, after comparing the results of my research, I can't help but wonder ''Why don't these kids fight back? I did as a kid, my friends did it as kids, my sister's children do it...why don't they fight back?''. So I came here hoping to get some answers from you guys, mostly because I believe that you have more experience in this field than me.

Is bullying at schools a cultural problem and why don't kids fight back? It is not that hard. When I say ''a cultural problem'' I mean that, during my research I have stumbled upon many bullying reports from all across the world, yet the difference is very clear: American's almost never fight back. Countries of the Far East have a different way of bullying (from reports that I have seen, they are not the classic ''u come, me hit u, me steal moneyz lol''. Australia has almost no reports about bullying. Please do note that this is the info that I have found online. You who live in those countries know better than me so, if I am wrong, please correct me.

Discuss.

Yora

2012-07-11, 07:09 AM

Finally my years of Cultural Studies have some use! :smallbiggrin:

The biggest problem with this would be the source data to make comparisons with. What do you really have that enables you to make any statements about bullying on national levels?
Before you have a good pool of data, you can only formulate a guess based on a hunch.

And I assume you have one. Anything specific you could tell about what you are suspecting? It seems you left it open on purpose to not get replies biased on what they think of your opening statement, but in this case I think the field is too big. Could you be more specific?

THAC0

2012-07-11, 07:21 AM

From my understanding, which is mostly anecdotal, but I do work in the school system, the older generation was fine with "taking care of things in the parking lot" as it were. I don't know if bullying was actually less then than it is now, I'm told it was.

Nowadays, in comparison, most American schools have a no-tolerance rule. So if someone's picking on you and you fight back, you both get in trouble. Or if they are picking on you verbally and you explode and punch them, just you gets in trouble. In my opinion, this does lead to an increase in bullying because, to be frank, as a teacher it's darned hard for me to tell who is doing the bullying! I can think of one specific situation where I knew bullying was going on but I couldn't for the life of me tell who was bullying who so all I could do is send both parties to the office and let administration deal with it (poorly).

Aedilred

2012-07-11, 07:45 AM

Again, my experience is entirely anecdotal, but as someone who was a victim of bullying, THAC0 is on point. School anti-bullying policies tend to be strict and well-intentioned but rarely benefit bullying victims or do anything to stop it, for the reasons mentioned. It's difficult, if not impossible, for a victim to report an incident of bullying before it's been concluded, and since they'll probably have made at least a token effort to defend themselves (not doing so is much easier said than done) the teacher tends to view it as six of one and half a dozen of the other. Both parties get punished, which seems totally unfair and dissuades victims from reporting incidents in future. I suspect that it was, at least in part, my experiences with this in school that have led to my general mistrust of and lack of faith in authority figures in general as an adult.

That said, depending on the type of bullying, defending oneself doesn't necessarily work either: it might just mean you get even more of a kicking. But it might have served to reduce it to a degree.

Any study like this, though, is going to run into the immediate problem of data collection. By definition, bullying isn't (I hope!) happening overtly so getting accurate figures on how much is going on is near-impossible. Relying on children to report it is no use for the reasons discussed above; relying on teachers to spot it likewise for more obvious reasons.

Fragenstein

2012-07-11, 07:56 AM

... stand up for themselves immediately and start fighting back.

Yes... This seems to be a contributing factor. The growing mentality over the last several decades has been "Use your words", and "Ignore them and they'll stop picking on you".

I'm not convinced that's a healthy attitude. A placid target becomes more of an inviting one as the bullies experiment with how far they can go with the mistreatment. At least if one offers a good fight there's a chance of earning respect and no longer being such an easy mark.

Of course that doesn't always work. Sometimes childhood violence can reach sociopathic levels that are nearly impossible to prevent, but that's abuse beyond simple bullying. It's also not exclusive to the United States.

You also have to consider our levels of sensitivity. What once may have been considered gutteral 'banter'* and 'roughhousing'** can be viewed by others as bullying. This is particularly the case if the target of that pseudo-masochistic display of camaraderie is sensitive or insecure enough to overreact in a display of victimization.

The more organized concept of Hazing has always had a place in societies where a command structure must be established and maintained. Mostly, that would be the military. Fraternities, sports teams and other aggressive associations are just an exuberant extension.

* By banter, I mean giving each other ****.
** By roughhousing, I mean that boys like to hit things, including their best friends.

EDIT: Reading Aedilred's post makes me wonder. Is the new modern mentality to find an authority figure and report bullying when observed rather than simply 'not letting it get to you'?

That, again, hardly seems like an empowering solution.

Helanna

2012-07-11, 08:03 AM

There is also the view in America that the victim shouldn't have to fight back. I have heard that in some other countries the victim is blamed if they don't fight back, but to be frank I find that awful. If you do want to fight back, that's great, I support you fully, but it's never the victim's fault. It's the bully's fault, and if the victim doesn't want to fight they shouldn't have to.

Plus, as others have said, American schools do discourage fighting back. My sister has dealt with a lot of bullying, and a while ago she asked if she could punch a guy that had been teasing her nonstop. My mom told her yes, IF she could deal with the consequences, namely - that the boy might punch her back (my sister is a very, very petite 13 year old, so a brawl's not gonna go in her favor), that she might be suspended, even that they might not let her finish taking her final exams and might have to risk repeating a year.

Of course, my mom always made it perfectly clear that if someone else threw the first punch, we were more than welcome to defend ourselves, and if we got suspended for it she would throw us a party. My youngest sister is the only one that every really had to deal with bullying, though.

Edit:

I'm not convinced that's a healthy attitude. A placid target becomes more of an inviting one as the bullies experiment with how far they can go with the mistreatment. At least if one offers a good fight there's a chance of earning respect and no longer being such an easy mark.

There's also a very good chance that it'll only encourage them. Plus you have the people like my sister - I think she's less than 100 pounds, so any physical fight will get her curbstomped, and to be honest, she's just not fast enough to really defend herself in verbal arguments. She gets flustered and the bullies always get the upper hand as far as insults go. She got extremely depressed about it because every time she tried to defend herself, the bullies just mocked her more.

Whiffet

2012-07-11, 08:14 AM

I'm always skeptical if someone says bullying doesn't occur somewhere. How do you know there weren't any bullies where you went to school? It's easy to not notice it if you aren't involved, after all.

But yes, the reason kids don't fight back in some places is because they get in trouble if they do. Also, bullies tend to go for the people who have trouble being assertive. It doesn't matter where you are: if the bullies got someone who can't stand up for themselves, that is when the bullying continues and you get a problem. Not that fighting back is always a good idea, mind you. Saying "everyone should just fight back" could cause an escalation in the bullying or a hospital visit if the bully is stronger and looking for a fight.

I'd just like to say right here that not all bullying is obvious. You ever know a group of popular girls who spread nasty rumors about someone they didn't like? That's bullying, and it's potentially hard to prove they're doing it.

Cheesegear

2012-07-11, 08:25 AM

Australia has almost no reports about bullying.

Well, there's one particular case that sparked national outrage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isfn4OxCPQs&feature=related). Everybody involved was suspended, the bully, the recorder, I believe two bystanders, and Casey himself was also suspended.

The outrage comes not from the fact that bullies exist, but that the clearly bigger of the two dealt out the Hammer Of Justice. And, since he was bigger and older, should have been more responsible and not have done it. Apparently when you're little you can do anything and big guys just have to cop it.

I, myself was in a similar case to the video. Keep in mind that I am not a large guy and wear glasses. I had taken up boxing as a way to keep fit and exercise after school, and explicitly told not to use what I knew 'in the playground' by my coach. Then, in my later years of High School, I transferred to public school and I was bullied/hazed for two weeks since I was the New Kid. One day I snapped and punched my bully a few times in the face and broke his nose. I was suspended for two days and I was never bullied again.

And I don't really recall anybody else of my year group who was ever bullied.

EDIT: On topic, well, Australians do fight back. So, yeah.

Socratov

2012-07-11, 08:26 AM

In te past it was revelaed that bullies have problems with insecurity themselves. So if someone who does not seem to hae that problem makes an easy target (because he's different) and is not assertive the bully has a way to let loose of his frustrations. Even if the bully is stronger, it's usually the act of standing up for yourself that earns you respect. you don't need the respect of the bully (chances are really small you will get that), you need the respect of the people surrounding you and the bully. If you get their respect you rise in popularity and apparently you are not an ideal bullying victim anymore (tried this, and it does work). as for name calling, ignoring is the best, for harrassment, fight back, show them you are not afraid, even if it will cost you an afternoon of detention, show 'em your copper spheres :smallamused: (luckily i was strong for my age due to sports and playing outside)

Fragenstein

2012-07-11, 08:32 AM

There's also a very good chance that it'll only encourage them. Plus you have the people like my sister - I think she's less than 100 pounds, so any physical fight will get her curbstomped, and to be honest, she's just not fast enough to really defend herself in verbal arguments. She gets flustered and the bullies always get the upper hand as far as insults go. She got extremely depressed about it because every time she tried to defend herself, the bullies just mocked her more.

Yeah. I did admit that it doesn't always work. When a bully just continues to stomp on someone who's obviously been defeated, that's when it becomes behavior bordering on sociopathic.

I grew up under very similar circumstances. I was never any good at effective comebacks, and I took the route of not fighting because I was afraid of getting my nose bloodied. It lead to many, many years of depression and self-loathing as a result. So the attempt to save myself a few bruises and temporary injuries lead to a path of much greater self-destruction.

Looking back, I can see that developing some means of defense would have been of great use. I'm not saying your sister should seek physical retaliation, but finding the strength of character to push back in any manner could do much for her emotional health.

There are time in life where losing a fight (physical, emotional or verbal), is better than not fighting at all.

In other news... I TOTALLY need to change my user name to Fraggelstein. So much more awesome.

pendell

2012-07-11, 08:42 AM

Here in the US kids are strongly ordered NOT to fight back. If there is an altercation , both students are punished, regardless of who started it. We are encouraged to use non-violent remedies, to walk away, or to get a teacher.

My own experience (in 1970s-1980s public school) was that the playground was a jungle, where bullies roamed freely while the school teachers stayed in a very small area where they wouldn't have to see anything that troubled them.

Now that I'm older and have been a substitute teacher myself, I suspect this was because for a playground monitor to actually get involved with the disciplinary process for a student would mean a great deal of paperwork and BS while the student would be disciplined not at all. So they preferred not to get involved.

The upshot was that the little kids like me lived lives of fear while those who were supposed to protect us .. didn't.

What did I learn from this experience?

1) To spend my lunch hours in the library, going so far as to skip lunch altogether so as to avoid contact with the other kids. I ate one meal a day at supper time by choice.

2) When cornered and without options, to do WHATEVER I had to regardless of the rules of fair play or sportsmanship. I learned to use my fists and my teeth and whatever else was handy.

3) Lastly, when forced into such a position , to say *absolutely nothing* to the authorities good or bad. To solve the problems for myself or endure them, but getting the school system involved usually resulted in a game of Blame the Victim.

=====

I don't believe this has anything to do with kids' culture or with kids fighting back or not. I think it has a lot more to do with the fact that its very hard for teachers in the current school system to effectively discipline students.

I know this, because 7th grade was *entirely* different. We had a disciplinarian vice principal. I was bullied ONE time. I brought it to the VP. He put the bullies on saturday work detail picking up trash on the bleachers. I never had another problem the entire time there.

Bullying is stopped when the guardians have the right and ability to enforce the rules. When this doesn't happen, either because the school system punishes those who do or because the school doesn't hire people willing to do it, the kids are terrorized. Eventually the bullied self-organize into gangs for self-protection, and things get worse from there.

In other words, bullying is a result of a leadership failure. That's my opinion, worth every cent you paid for it :).

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Yora

2012-07-11, 08:49 AM

There is also the view in America that the victim shouldn't have to fight back. I have heard that in some other countries the victim is blamed if they don't fight back, but to be frank I find that awful.
Which I think is a slight misrepresentation, but one that's very common.

There is one line of thought that I think was common in the last two decades, that I would call "overprotective", at least here in Germany. I don't have kids of my own or have friends with kids older than two, but my parents and my brother are all linked in some way to pedagogy. The basic idea is "violence is wrong and must be suppressed", but it ignores the fact that violence can't be supressed 100% all the time and people need to be able to deal with it when they encounter it. If you supress all violence in school and earlier, children can not develop this skill and they also can not develop a judgement of how rough is too rough.
Children need to experience violence both to protect themselves and to protect others from themselves. Kids who never get to experience how much harm they can do and what the consequences of that are won't develop inhibitions. It's the same with falling down things or injuring yourself when playing with dangerous stuff. I think I read a study just recently that "well protected" children get injured less often, but then much more severely. Kids who get scrapes and bruises learn their limits and how to judge dangers. Kids who are not allowed to do anything slightly dangerous neither know their limits nor can they spot real danger.

My parents really weren't cruel or neglectant, but most of the time anyone said "he beat me!" the reply is "then beat him back". Because almost always it wasn't really anything serious. There is of course a point where things get way out of hand and you need to interfere, but kids need to learn what harm they can do, how to fight back, or how to avoid being attacked.

And I think the stereotype of "Asian parents get angry with kid for getting beaten up" probably has a similar background. It's not that it is the kids fault, but probably an urging to develop the skills to deal with such situations by themselves. Parents and teachers can't protect kids all the time for all their life, they need to develop this vital skill themselves.

I don't believe this has anything to do with kids' culture or with kids fighting back or not. I think it has a lot more to do with the fact that its very hard for teachers in the current school system to effectively discipline students.
Really? What about a bit of good old shouting? You don't need "disciplinary action" most of the time, usually the most important thing is to tell them that this kind of thing doesn't fly here.
But when it comes down to "the only reaction is getting kicked out when when you did absolutely horrible thing", then you basically give them a carte blanche to do anything they want as long as nobody dies.

Castaras

2012-07-11, 08:54 AM

Bullying happens where I am less as one person picking on another, more as a group mentality and a "meme"-like bit of picking on one or two people in the school. In the time I was at secondary, I was the victim of this, as was another special needs girl I knew of - for me, it got to a point where I was being mixed up with the other girl so she'd get "Lol, injections, hahahaha" and I'd get "Harry Potter's dead!", which'd confuse us to no end.

For my experiences, when I was younger it was older people and people in my year poking fun at me. They all stopped when I turned around and slapped a guy who had been poking fun at me for quite a while. It helped that I was a thin weak looking "good girl", and he was a douche to teachers and students alike, but me standing up for myself solved the problem of older students.

It didn't, however, solve the problem of random younger years yelling things at me in the corridor. By then, I'd become desensitised to it all so it didn't affect me - the only thing it caused me to do was worry that it'd spill over to bullying my little brother, who was in the years who were throwing insults at me.

Reporting to teachers never worked worked once or twice for single occasion only bullying, and I didn't hang out with people enough to notice any backlash from the "You told on someone *gasp*" angle.

I was lucky though - I'm a girl, so the closest I got to physically attacked was a single incident of having people stuff half eaten chocolate in my coat hood. I know of guys who'd have it worse because they were male, and as such were free for anyone to do anything to.

Astrella

2012-07-11, 09:00 AM

Be careful because you're bordering on victim blaming at some points...

You have to solve the problems that cause people to bully (usually stresses in their own lives) to reduce the amount of bullying taking place.

Edit: And fighting back isn't always an option; when you're alone against several others there's a lot less you can do. And not to forget that teachers and school administration often have the tendency to punish all the people involved in ruckus rather than try to figure out what was going on. Heck, considering that in my case there was an actual teacher involved in the bullying at one point...

pendell

2012-07-11, 09:02 AM

Really? What about a bit of good old shouting? You don't need "disciplinary action" most of the time, usually the most important thing is to tell them that this kind of thing doesn't fly here.

True story, from Fairfax County.

Substitute aid sees a student playing stupidly with a pencil. "Jeremy, please give me the pencil".

No response.

"Jeremy, please give me the pencil".

No response. Rinse and repeat five times.

"JEREMY, PLEASE GIVE ME THE PENCIL!"

Still no response.

*Aide forcefully takes the pencil away from Jeremy*.

The aide was disciplined. Why?

1) She dared to lay hands on the student. That simply isn't done.
2) She raised her voice. She was told afterwards that she should have simply kept repeating "Jeremy, please give me the pencil" in a calm voice until Jeremy gave in.

The aide in question was my mother, and I believe the school was George Mason High School , Falls Church, VA, 1997. I may have the exact details wrong, but the general thrust should be accurate.

At any rate, Yora, you can see why students growing up in such an environment should have nothing but contempt for their teachers, and do what they will.

And the teachers aren't any happier about it than the students are. My mother was intensely frustrated, which is why she quit teaching in the public schools and started teaching English as a Second Language to adults. But there's only so much you can do to buck the bureaucracy when you're a part of it.

Not every school is like that. But enough are. Done right, the school tells the parents, and the parents get the kid in line. But if the parent wants to put up a fight and take it to the school board, then it can be a great big hullaballoo. Legal concerns and lawsuit fodder means very strict rules are set for the teachers, and the teachers for the most part follow them. Really good administrators and teachers can rise above this and run a good school anyway, but it's a serious challenge.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Emmerask

2012-07-11, 09:07 AM

Sorry but bullying happens everywhere across all cultural boundaries, it is deeply engraved in the human psychology because we are a herd animal and having someone to pick on helps a group to stick together better.
There are two ways either you bully outside your group (the apex group and other "higher up" groups) or you bully inside your group (ie you have one member in the group specifically for that purpose) sometimes a mix.

And as others have said thinking that there was no bullying going on can have two reasons:
a) not noticing it on purpose (well not actively but its quite normal that your mind does not want to notice it)
b) being the one who bullies (in the mind of the bully they are not bullying actually just some light hearted fun [in most cases])

There are a ton of good books about that behavior and group dynamics (Lucifer Principle etc)

/edit the only thing that may differ between cultures is the way bullying works

snoopy13a

2012-07-11, 09:22 AM

Weaker children are usually the victims of physical bullying. Fighting back is often futile.

However, most bullying in America is verbal abuse. If a student fights back after verbal abuse, he or she will get suspended from school. The bully may even deny the verbal abuse and possibly receive no punishment. It is further complicated that the bullies are quite often the popular children who are well liked by teachers; this is especially true for girl bullies.

Bullies are also adapt in that bullying usually takes place outside the supervision of adults. For example, physical bullying usually occurs in restrooms or locker rooms. Verbal abuse also takes place without adult awareness, and verbal abuse is easily deniable by bullies.

Fragenstein

2012-07-11, 09:32 AM

Be careful because you're bordering on victim blaming at some points...

This is true. We shouldn't blame the victim. But as a past victim, I believe I can offer the following insight...

I should not have taken the verbal abuse so personally. Replying with an emotionally stressed and victimized response drew further negative attention. Remaining calm, answering with even a simple "So's your mom" and not backing down would have been better.

Edit: And fighting back isn't always an option; when you're alone against several others there's a lot less you can do. And not to forget that teachers and school administration often have the tendency to punish all the people involved in ruckus rather than try to figure out what was going on. Heck, considering that in my case there was an actual teacher involved in the bullying at one point...

If several others are physcially beating on one person then it's not bullying; it's assault. Back in my day (which I realize may no longer apply), you could call out a single person of a group with a public challenge. As corny as that may sound, saying "Fine, me and you after school" has a good chance of reducing the odds to 1-on-1 and earn some small measure of respect.

Why? Because the other kids in the group harassing you may want to see their friend get beat up just as badly as they want to see the victim get beat up. At least this way the victim takes a shot at stepping out of their agonizing role even if they ultimately lose the fight.

No, that's not perfect. No, that doesn't always work. Yes, someone may get hurt but unless you're in a region plagued by something akin to gang violence then it at least has a chance of being a resolution.

THAC0

2012-07-11, 09:41 AM

Really? What about a bit of good old shouting? You don't need "disciplinary action" most of the time, usually the most important thing is to tell them that this kind of thing doesn't fly here.

hahahah.

That works with the kids who, quite frankly, don't need it.

The kids who do need it? No way is me shouting or telling them this doesn't fly going to do a darn thing. The last schools I worked at, kids would tell me their parents said they didn't have to listen to me because of my race. Or this or that. Or they just ignored you, because they know darned well that there's nothing we as teachers can do to them that they care about.

Haruki-kun

2012-07-11, 09:42 AM

When I say ''a cultural problem'' I mean that, during my research I have stumbled upon many bullying reports from all across the world, yet the difference is very clear: American's almost never fight back.

In my short time living in the United States I have come to the opposite conclusion: Americans have a higher tendency to stand up for themselves when they feel threatened. That being said, I am 23 years old now and living in college, so the problem is less prevalent.

Anyway, to put up my own experience having grown up in Mexico here:

I learned that the most common form of bullying could be brought down to "everything you say can and will be used against you." Bullies in my school knew that teachers would not do anything to them if they just went for the verbal abuse approach and steered clear of physical violence. It's also one of the biggest reasons I never fought back: The instant I did, the whole thing would be my fault.

After years of being bullied I started to gain a reputation among teachers of "be careful, that kid there has a tendency to get really angry". The instant I started to defend myself, even verbally, they would take me away to "calm down" and I was never allowed to stand up for myself. For the longest time my parents would ask me what the bullies did to me that made me get home so angry and depressed, but I never wanted to talk about it, so I feel they assumed I was just making it all up.

Anxe

2012-07-11, 10:08 AM

My experience in my fine Palo Alto Public School District was that bullies only went for verbal bullying. I'd take it to the physical level and then it would stop. Others wouldn't and it would continue. I never took it to the teachers. I knew I could solve my own problems, and that if I took it to the teachers I would look weak.

So there's my anecdotal evidence. Can hardly be extrapolated to the rest of California as Palo Alto is freaking rich.

pendell

2012-07-11, 10:12 AM

hahahah.

That works with the kids who, quite frankly, don't need it.

The kids who do need it? No way is me shouting or telling them this doesn't fly going to do a darn thing. The last schools I worked at, kids would tell me their parents said they didn't have to listen to me because of my race. Or this or that. Or they just ignored you, because they know darned well that there's nothing we as teachers can do to them that they care about.

Precisely. Here in the US, teachers have practically no power over the students. That's supposed to be the job of the parents. If you have a cooperative parent (say, a sergeant in the USMC) who will adjust the child's attitude when the school complains, thinks work out. But the system breaks down when the parent decides that Special Snowflake is not the problem and fights the school tooth and nail every step of the way.

And it's another kettle of fish entirely if the kid's parents are in prison, strung out on drugs, or in some other way absent and unavailable to carry out their duties.

In such a case, the teachers really have no choice but to tolerate misbehavior while building enough of a paper trail to get the kid moved into special ed or out of the school entirely. That is not a trivial task. If the kid's smart, he always takes things to the very edge, making life for everyone around him/her a living hell while always staying just clear of anything that would actually allow the school to do something about it. When I was a sub, I saw just how expert some kids were on playing the edges. And so it is that a small percentage of the kids can utterly ruin a class for everyone else in it.

Regrettably, I wasn't a sub long enough to figure out how to solve that.

ETA: When I was a student in Ruby Drive elementary school back in 1981, it WAS physical abuse and torture, which the teachers did nothing about on the playground.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Traab

2012-07-11, 10:16 AM

While I was in school fighting back wasnt strictly speaking allowed, but it was nothing like the total garbage zero tolerance &^%$ we have today. They generally punished both sides if a fight broke out, but actually bothered to find out who started it and that person got a worse punishment. Unfortunately for me, I spent most of my school career moving every freaking year, so I was always the new kid. I was short, skinny and wore glasses, so bullies thought I was an easy target, and I have adhd, so my temper isnt the best. So every year I would get picked on by bullies for the first three semesters, beat the crap out of 2-3 of them after I got annoyed enough, then be left alone for the rest of the year, only to move to a new school and start over from scratch.

It helped that I was usually just as, or more quick witted than, the idiots trying to make fun of me. (Seriously, being called big head and nerd gets kinda boring after 8 years of the same lines) So I was able to keep it verbal for the most part but eventually I would get tired of having to deal with this every time the teacher left the area and I would be forced to get into a fight and drop the guy. Skinny shrimp or not, with my adhd, once I snap im like the hulk minus the growth spurt, I just keep swinging till the other guy goes down or the teacher separates us, no matter what happens to me. It tended to get me the respect and fear of the bullies and they would leave me alone. Downside is I tended to spend 20-40 days of each school year suspended.

That being said, I stopped moving my sophmore year and had my last three years of high school in one place, yay! I got into my obligatory fights, and then, no fights after that year till graduation and beyond. Hypothesis confirmed. Beat up a few wannabe bullies, and word gets around that picking on you isnt safe. Im sure it isnt a 100% solution, some people are just crazy, but in general, being able to fight back, and making sure everyone KNOWS you can fight back, is often enough to end the worst bullying. And I for one think teachers and school administrators need to get off their asses, stop taking the lazy way out, and start investigating fights again so the actual bullies get punished more heavily than the victims. Ignoring it and hoping it goes away doesnt work. Running off to a teacher just means they will wait till they can get you alone, and now you are a tattle tale. Fighting back verbally might help a bit, but its generally nothing more than delaying the physical confrontation. Its only in the movies that the downtrodden nerd can fire back a series of bon mots and have the entire school start laughing at the bully as he is embarrassed horribly.

Wyntonian

2012-07-11, 10:31 AM

I recall my (American) high school's response was somewhere between "What? Bullying? Here? Never!" and firmly inserting their collective heads into the sand (and/or their own posteriors).

I was a target up until junior year, when I actually did that whole "you, me, after school" thing and more-or-less settled things. The person in question was the son of the vice principal, so doing anything through the "approved channels" would have ended poorly for me.

The upside was that after years of calling me every slur he could come up, this guy had a really hard time explaining how a supposedly "gay" kid demolished him.

I feel like the school should have done more. They utterly ignored every reported case of bullying so they could maintain the illusion that it didn't exist. I still have scars from that encounter and others, and it prevented me from enjoying what was supposed to be a rather fun time of my life.

This sort of thing is part of what got me interested in teaching high school, as the only positive influences on this topic were a couple great history and lit teachers. They could actually act and take part in improving the lives of their students without everything needing to be part of an official policy, which is an immeasurable benefit when the administration winds itself in red tape so it has an excuse not to act.

pendell

2012-07-11, 10:51 AM

They could actually act and take part in improving the lives of their students without everything needing to be part of an official policy, which is an immeasurable benefit when the administration winds itself in red tape so it has an excuse not to act.

In other words, they were willing to risk their jobs and their careers by violating administration policy and hoping like heck no one reported them. It takes a lot of guts to do that. It takes brains AND guts to do that and get away with it. Such people are heroes. I regret to say that when I was a substitute I wasn't one. Just a computer science grad with no experience in teaching trying desperately to make it through the day until I could get a job I actually WAS qualified for.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Bulldog Psion

2012-07-11, 11:29 AM

My mom was bullied when she was a kid -- a girl called Sophie Z. was punching her in the arms every day when she went to school, and she was literally black and blue with bruises. She was super-shy, small, and skinny, and Sophie Z. was large and active. The teachers saw what was happening, but did nothing.

So, my grandmother finally told her she had to fight back and put her walking shoes on her, which were heavy leather with thick soles. So, the next time Sophie attacked her, my mom kicked her as hard as she could in the shin. She said Sophie, from where she was lying on the floor clutching her shin, said "I'm gonna kill you!", but she never, ever even attempted to touch my mother again.

In fact, as she was walking away (terrified, not swaggering), she saw one of the male teachers who had done nothing before give her a smile, and turn back to whatever he was doing.

Odd to think that now, my mom would be the one in trouble. :smallfrown:

Tragically, the only thing that a bully respects is force. To them, courtesy or "attempting to talk it out" just equals weakness and fear.

Ialdabaoth

2012-07-11, 12:00 PM

Tragically, the only thing that a bully respects is force. To them, courtesy or "attempting to talk it out" just equals weakness and fear.

This is somewhat disingenuous. The only thing that reality respects is force. This is not unique to bullies.

Why do you think policemen are armed?

Why do you think we use soldiers to solve international issues, instead of diplomats?

Why do you think places of business hire security?

Everything else in the world - every idea, moral, or ethic - is dependent on force to implement it. That's why it's called enforcement. And if you have the force, you get to say what gets implemented. And the only way anyone gets to legitimately disagree with you, is by fighting you.

{{scrubbed}}

"Bullies" know the score, and address it honestly. See, want, take, have.

Castaras

2012-07-11, 12:30 PM

Odd to think that now, my mom would be the one in trouble. :smallfrown:

Likely not, where I am. When I gave a massive whack to the person who was bullying me, the teacher took me to the side and said "I didn't see anything, but good for you - he deserved it."

AtlanteanTroll

2012-07-11, 12:35 PM

Eh. I've never known anyone to be seriously bullied. Ever. Or not physically anyway. The one bad thing I can think of is that once my friend was in a debate class where the teacher was out of the room, and the guy who he was arguing with decided to come at my friend. Sadly, he didn't know my friend was a blackbelt. My friend through him about 5 feet across the room. The dude he threw was a known ass and everyone was happy.

-snip-

How you doing there, Machiavelli?

Ialdabaoth

2012-07-11, 12:43 PM

How you doing there, Machiavelli?

Terrible. It hurts.

AtlanteanTroll

2012-07-11, 12:46 PM

Terrible. It hurts.

I like Machiavelli. :smallwink:

I must say I disagree with your general assessment. Yes, force is used to enforce things, but ... There would be nothing to enforce if people didn't successfully talk things out.

Ialdabaoth

2012-07-11, 12:53 PM

I like Machiavelli. :smallwink:

I must say I disagree with your general assessment. Yes, force is used to enforce things, but ... There would be nothing to enforce if people didn't successfully talk things out.

I wish that were true.

Mando Knight

2012-07-11, 01:07 PM

Precisely. Here in the US, teachers have practically no power over the students. That's supposed to be the job of the parents. If you have a cooperative parent (say, a sergeant in the USMC) who will adjust the child's attitude when the school complains, thinks work out. But the system breaks down when the parent decides that Special Snowflake is not the problem and fights the school tooth and nail every step of the way.

Another part of the problem is that many parents assume that because teachers are teachers, the responsibility of teaching the children to behave should fall on them. A public education system has many benefits, but they don't include replacing the parents as parents.

Tyndmyr

2012-07-11, 01:48 PM

While children in America are getting bullied and getting their asses kicked, children here, in case they might be bullied (for example, a kid comes to another kid and starts making fun of him etc) stand up for themselves immediately and start fighting back.

Well, I'm an American, and this attitude was indeed common here...but it was very rural America, and frankly, America has a LOT of variation in culture depending on where you are. I'm not saying that no bullying ever happened, it certainly did...but it had limits, and generally stopped short of the physical, as hitting back was not generally considered a problem. So, there were still unpopular kids who got teased and stuff, but people being beat up for lunch money was not normal among my peers.

Is this same attitude prevalent now, across America? Certainly not. But once upon a time, it was considered ok, or even desirable to hit back at someone who hit you, and this did limit bullying in certain ways.

It's certainly possible that modern anti-bullying policies are actually a net negative over this model.

AtlanteanTroll

2012-07-11, 01:58 PM

I wish that were true.

It may not always be true, but it is for enforcers. The Police enforce the law, which were talked out by a group of men and women. UN Peacekeepers enforce the treaties, which were definitely "talked out" by diplomats, among other things. Soldiers don't really enforce much of anything, they just do what they're told.

Tyndmyr

2012-07-11, 02:00 PM

It may not always be true, but it is for enforcers. The Police enforce the law, which were talked out by a group of men and women. UN Peacekeepers enforce the treaties, which were definitely "talked out" by diplomats, among other things. Soldiers don't really enforce much of anything, they just do what they're told.

Talking is awesome, but frankly, talking works a lot better when force is the result if talking fails. Remarkably motivating.

AtlanteanTroll

2012-07-11, 02:08 PM

Talking is awesome, but frankly, talking works a lot better when force is the result if talking fails. Remarkably motivating.

Yes, I suppose being shot at like a mindless animal is "remarkably motivating." But that wasn't my point. My point was that there would be nothing to enforce if people didn't successfully talk things out. There would still people with guns shooting people, but they wouldn't really be enforcing things, they'd just be shooting because they were told to. Not that that doesn't already happen.

Ialdabaoth

2012-07-11, 02:10 PM

Yes, I suppose being shot at like a mindless animal is "remarkably motivating." But that wasn't my point. My point was that there would be nothing to enforce if people didn't successfully talk things out. There would still people with guns shooting people, but they wouldn't really be enforcing things, they'd just be shooting because they were told to. Not that that doesn't already happen.

I find that "talking things out" doesn't really happen at our level, though. It happens at the very top. There are maybe 5,000 people alive today, and seven billion human chattel.

We are not people, so us talking about "talking things out" and waxing philosophical about enforcement is a travesty. It's like pigs in lipstick.

AtlanteanTroll

2012-07-11, 02:22 PM

I find that "talking things out" doesn't really happen at our level, though. It happens at the very top. There are maybe 5,000 people alive today, and seven billion human chattel.
"Talking it out" may not work so well if you aren't at the top of the world's pyramid scheme. But you said that "the only thing that reality respects is force. This is not unique to bullies." This is obviously untrue if it works at the top, and what happens at the top ends up messing with everyone's lives.

We are not people, so us talking about "talking things out" and waxing philosophical about enforcement is a travesty. It's like pigs in lipstick.
You mean I'm not a Homo sapiens sapiens? Someone, quick, rush me to the Smithsonian! No, scratch that, the Chicago Field Museum, it's closer!! In all honesty that's a needlessly pessimistic view.

Perhaps none of the "pigs" you've ever interacted with are capable of talking things out, but I know some that can, and some that can do it very well. Of course, they aren't in charge of signing treaties or laws, but it's not like it's all that hard to break into a position where one can at some level.

Tyndmyr

2012-07-11, 02:27 PM

"Talking it out" may not work so well if you aren't at the top of the world's pyramid scheme. But you said that "the only thing that reality respects is force. This is not unique to bullies." This is obviously untrue if it works at the top, and what happens at the top ends up messing with everyone's lives.

Force is very much behind the talking that happens at the very top, too. Force, and the avoidance of same, is very much a core part of survival, for humans or for other species.

Teaching children about it is essential, and a more nuanced position than "everything can be talked out" is probably wise. Because, frankly, plenty of conflict in the adult world is not talked out.

smellie_hippie

2012-07-11, 02:28 PM

AtlanteanTroll

2012-07-11, 02:33 PM

Force is very much behind the talking that happens at the very top, too. Force, and the avoidance of same, is very much a core part of survival, for humans or for other species.
I can't argue with that, but just because it's a key motivator doesn't mean that force is the only thing reality respects.

Teaching children about it is essential, and a more nuanced position than "everything can be talked out" is probably wise. Because, frankly, plenty of conflict in the adult world is not talked out.
You also set them up to be much more violent little buggers than they would be otherwise if you teach them the opposite. But please, tell me when was the last time you saw someone hit someone at work was. And I don't think anyone actually believe everything can be talked out. I know I don't, and I'm a pacifist.

TheSummoner

2012-07-11, 02:37 PM

So... Here's my story...

Throughout elementary school, there was this one kid who constantly harassed me. It was all verbal since physically, I was stronger than he was. It was pretty much hammered into me that I wasn't supposed to fight and I was especially not supposed to throw the first punch.

So what did little elementary school me do in this situation where I was constantly being verbally harassed? I told the teachers and I told the aides and I told whoever was around at the time. The problem would maybe be handled for about a day or so before it would start all over again.

Eventually it got to the point where it seemed like I was just being ignored whenever I went to complain about it. I would be told things like "just ignore it" (if I could, would I be bothering with you?) or "walk away" (which would be wonderful if I wouldn't just be followed).

So inevitably I got fed up with it enough that I tried to handle things myself. It was certainly more effective (not 100% sadly), but if it ever got to the point where anyone got in trouble, I was the one who was punished for it.

The problem with bullying is the mentality that if you just ignore it, it will go away. Try that on a starving lion. Try that on cancer. Try that on AIDS. It simply doesn't work. The teachers don't deal with the problem, either because they can't or just won't. Students are punished for any sort of fighting regardless of the cause or their level of involvement, so they're discouraged from dealing with it on their own as well.

Wyntonian

2012-07-11, 02:39 PM

In other words, they were willing to risk their jobs and their careers by violating administration policy and hoping like heck no one reported them. It takes a lot of guts to do that. It takes brains AND guts to do that and get away with it. Such people are heroes. I regret to say that when I was a substitute I wasn't one. Just a computer science grad with no experience in teaching trying desperately to make it through the day until I could get a job I actually WAS qualified for.

Well, to clarify, it was more of being a positive and supportive role model and helping me maintain some faith in humanity, and not laying the deserved smackdown on those little douchenuggets. They were entirely within their rights, they just chose to do their job instead of ignoring the problem and assuming it would go away.

For example, one Lit teacher would have a new book for me to read every time I came to him, another one got me interested in Aikido, another was like a cranky old grandfather full of old military history tidbits. None of them did more than the occasional "don't make me come over there" look at the perpetrator, but if it weren't for them I wouldn't have had the courage to stick it to that son of a bitch in my junior year, which did immense good to my self-esteem and mental health.

So yeah, they were heroes, I agree. Whether or not they violated policy is a grey area, but I could honestly care less.

Tyndmyr

2012-07-11, 02:42 PM

I can't argue with that, but just because it's a key motivator doesn't mean that force is the only thing reality respects.

Whoever said that was certainly overgeneralizing. However, even the most cursory study of history will reveal that force is pretty integral in shaping it, and those we recognize as being in power correlate very heavily with those who wield force.

Use of force is not a catch-all solution...but for a great many children, bullying is their first real introduction to the use of force, and regardless of which end they're on, it's probably not a positive lesson. Adults need to provide some guidance here as to when force is appropriate, and self-defense=ok, otherwise not is a pretty reasonable lesson for kids. Simplified? Sure, but it's something they can start with.

You also set them up to be much more violent little buggers than they would be otherwise if you teach them the opposite. But please, tell me when was the last time you saw someone hit someone at work was. And I don't think anyone actually believe everything can be talked out. I know I don't, and I'm a pacifist.

Less violent is not always the same as better. That said, I'm not a pacifist, so we might well not agree on that score.

Also, I spent eight years in the air force, and my last unit got all manner of deployments, so you *might* want to use a different example.

Ialdabaoth

2012-07-11, 02:43 PM

You mean I'm not a Homo sapiens sapiens? Someone, quick, rush me to the Smithsonian! No, scratch that, the Chicago Field Museum, it's closer!! In all honesty that's a needlessly pessimistic view.

I said you aren't people. That doesn't mean you aren't human.

"Human" is our word for Homo sapiens sapiens, just like "Dog" is our word for Canis lupus domesticus.

"Person" is our word for 'someone with rights that must be respected, that we regard as a being with agency and the ability to make choices'.

If you think that's you and me, turn on a TV sometime.

jaybird

2012-07-11, 02:44 PM

"Anyone who clings to the historically untrue — and thoroughly immoral — doctrine that "violence never solves anything" I would advise to conjure up the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and of the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The ghost of Hitler could referee, and the jury might well be the Dodo, the Great Auk, and the Passenger Pigeon. Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms."
- Robert A. Heinlein.

Ialdabaoth

2012-07-11, 02:47 PM

*Wades boldly into dangerous territory*

As a child therapist, I ALWAYS use the same advice in regards to bullying:

1. It is always better to walk away and avoid the confrontation.

Spoken like someone who's never been hit in the back of the head with a steel pipe while walking away, then put in detention for fighting because he was found face-down in the mud and the back of his head was bloody.

I recognize that some people can earn a mote of respect for standing up for themselves, but oftentimes... the failed attempt to do so makes situations even worse. I am also a firm believer in the fact that it is always possible to walk away. (Barring random incidents in dark alleys and what not). Most bullying victims "know" that something is coming.

Oh yes. Which inevitably makes it their fault.

This is what I learned in school:

Never run away. They'll just chase you into an ambush.

Never stand your ground. They'll just gang up on you.

Never submit. They'll just keep kicking you until you pass out.

Never fight back. They'll just overpower you ten to one and break everything you care about.

Never keep quiet. They'll just ramp up the abuse.

Never speak up. The authorities will just blame you.

Never confide in your friends. They'll just become the next victims.

Never try to tough it alone. You'll just be outnumbered by vaster and vaster groups of bullies.

Never ask for sympathy. You'll just get raped and beaten.

Never try to prove how tough you are. You'll just get raped and beaten.

Never appeal to their humanity. You'll just get raped and beaten.

Just give up. Just give up. Just give up.

AtlanteanTroll

2012-07-11, 02:50 PM

Whoever said that was certainly overgeneralizing. However, even the most cursory study of history will reveal that force is pretty integral in shaping it, and those we recognize as being in power correlate very heavily with those who wield force.
Indeed and that was one of the things I took issue with. The over generalization, that is. And while force has definitely been a defining shaping force (hah) on history, talking it out has become more and more integral, not to mention viable, within the last century.

Use of force is not a catch-all solution...but for a great many children, bullying is their first real introduction to the use of force, and regardless of which end they're on, it's probably not a positive lesson. Adults need to provide some guidance here as to when force is appropriate, and self-defense=ok, otherwise not is a pretty reasonable lesson for kids. Simplified? Sure, but it's something they can start with.
I agree. And children should be taught to deal with bullying. Although I think that GITP is going to be a bad sample as to the proportion of people that are actually bullied ... As will any forum.

EDIT: And I think Ialdabaoth's prior post pretty much proves that.

Less violent is not always the same as better. That said, I'm not a pacifist, so we might well not agree on that score.
Quite probably not.

Also, I spent eight years in the air force, and my last unit got all manner of deployments, so you *might* want to use a different example.
Well damn. Though, I would still say that you're not going to get your co-workers trying to hurt each other if you works as a, let's say, accountant.

Wyntonian

2012-07-11, 02:51 PM

Snippity

That may be what you learned, but I kinda doubt that's what was taught.

Ialdabaoth

2012-07-11, 02:52 PM

Well damn. Though, I would still say that you're not going to get your co-workers trying to hurt each other if you works as a, let's say, accountant.

I strongly disagree. My first job as a computer programmer ended with my boss punching me out in front of everyone else in the company. Broke my nose, too.

Couldn't prove it, because there were no witnesses willing to come forward.

Ialdabaoth

2012-07-11, 02:53 PM

That may be what you learned, but I kinda doubt that's what was taught.

A communication has multiple layers - what is said, and what is meant.

I'm very good at picking up what is meant.

AtlanteanTroll

2012-07-11, 02:55 PM

I strongly disagree. My first job as a computer programmer ended with my boss punching me out in front of everyone else in the company. Broke my nose, too.

Couldn't prove it, because there were no witnesses willing to come forward.

You've pretty much set yourself up as an outlier for abuse, seeing as you were hit in the back of a head with a lead pipe. Although that is quite unfortunate.

pendell

2012-07-11, 03:00 PM

Thank you, Smellie Hippie, for your thoughts.

Perhaps we were in different environments. I directly recall being chased down, being surrounded by groups of kids, being attacked at a concession stand that I was manning and could NOT walk away from ...

... my experience was that I had to stand up for myself and demonstrate that I wasn't going to take it. If I walked away, I had to deal with the same problem again and again. Once the bullies understood I wasn't prey, they went and found easier meat.

Avoidance IS better if it works. I don't think anyone, from police officers to martial artists to barroom bouncers, are going to disagree that walking away from the confrontation isn't the first thing to try. But it doesn't always work. When that happens ... in my case, I didn't even have to throw a punch. I simply made it clear that I wasn't going to take it. That I was prepared to fight, but they'd have to be the ones to start it.

They walked away instead.

My experience is that when walking away doesn't work, there's another level of force before reaching the "start swinging" phase. And that is a calm, firm, looking the bully in the eye and let them know that you won't take it.

It doesn't matter whether you're physically much weaker than the other guy. It doesn't matter if you're outnumbered 6 to 1 (as I was the last time). What matters is that you're willing to fight, even if you won't win, but you're darn well going to leave them something to remember the fight by ... WITHOUT throwing the punch.

If , under those circumstances, the bully escalates to an actual fight, well, fight them. But if you're lucky, you won't have to. I didn't.

And after I did that, word went around school and I was left alone thereafter.

IME, bullies are predators. They want someone who will give them what they want (screaming in fear, terror, cries of "stop it!") with a minimum of fuss. The way to deal with them, then, is to attack both sides of the equation:

1) Don't give them what they want ( walk away if you can, look them calmly in the eye, be firm and under NO account show weakness or give them the power trip they crave).

2) Increase the fuss. I strongly suggest NOT actually starting a fight. Put the other guy into the position of crossing that threshold. But make it plain that there is a cost to bullying you.

It's the same principle as horns on a ram. A sheep can't defeat a wolf, or a wolf pack, but it can make the cost of tangling with it high enough that the wolves will seek easier meat. Predators -- two-legged or any other kind -- look for easy kills that don't fight back. It's how they make their living, after all.

Oh yes, there's one other thing:

-- don't put the bully in the position where he HAS to attack you in front of his friends or be thought a coward. Put the challenge the other way -- make it out like it's not a macho or manly thing to pick on a weak kid. Make it out so he saves face and pride by walking away. But if the dude's cowardly enough to be bullying little kids, he WILL attack if he thinks he's going to look bad in front of his friends. If he had any guts he wouldn't be bullying, after all. So make it out so he looks good for walking away and looks bad for beating up a little kid. Get his pride and low self-image working for you, not against you.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Ialdabaoth

2012-07-11, 03:01 PM

You've pretty much set yourself up as an outlier for abuse, seeing as you were hit in the back of a head with a lead pipe. Although that is quite unfortunate.

Whether it's "unfortunate" or not is subjective, isn't it?

I have a very punchable face. What I mean by that is, no matter how nice or pleasant or engaging I try to be, something about my behavior, appearance, and demeanor combine to really creep people out. This may be genetic (some kind of PDD/Autism spectrum thing), or it could simply be environmental. But either way, I send out very clear signals that I do not belong as part of the pack.

The simplest way to deal with this is to remove me from the pack - violently if possible.

Most of the people who react to someone like me can't really help it, you know? They're responding to biological imperatives to purge the pack.

AtlanteanTroll

2012-07-11, 03:04 PM

Whether it's "unfortunate" or not is subjective, isn't it?
I ... What? I was offering you my condolences. Do you enjoy being physically abused? :smallconfused:

Most of the people who react to someone like me can't really help it, you know? They're responding to biological imperatives to purge the pack.
No, I don't. If somebody or something makes me mad I ignore it, and usually it goes away. If it persists I get used to it and it loses it's infuriating quality.

Ialdabaoth

2012-07-11, 03:08 PM

I ... What? I was offering you my condolences. Do you enjoy being physically abused? :smallconfused:

No, but like I mentioned before - I learned at a young age that if someone is showing me any sympathy, it summons the bullies. Whether that's still true or not, it's anchored.

No, I don't. If somebody or something makes me mad I ignore it, and usually it goes away. If it persists I get used to it and it loses it's infuriating quality.

That isn't a particularly common trait.

pendell

2012-07-11, 03:17 PM

Something else to consider is the Victim selection process (http://www.protectivestrategies.com/victim-selection.html). I believe bullies look for the same things in their victims -- lack of self-confidence, body language, etc . -- that criminals do. If so , you can take yourself "off their radar" by modifying your actions accordingly, stopping the bullying before it ever begins.

Really, it's no different from predators. Predators look for the weak, the sick, the isolated from the herd. Modify your verbal and body language not to send that signal, it's less likely you'll find yourself as a valid target on their internal software.

I want to make it 100% clear that this does NOT mean the victim is at fault or somehow deserved it. The bully is 100% at fault for his actions in attacking someone weaker than he. But that doesn't mean there aren't things we can do to fuss up their targeting software, get them to seek other targets. It's worth trying, at any rate.

Thinking about it, body language is an important element in the "just walk away" strategy. If you have your head bent and you're scuttling away, you're going to send the "Prey running away" signal, and they'll chase. OTOH, if you walk confidently, erect, away, you're sending the "I'm a dangerous animal giving you a chance to walk away" signal. If you're lucky, they'll pick up on it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Wyntonian

2012-07-11, 03:21 PM

But that doesn't mean there aren't things we can do to fuss up their targeting software, get them to seek other targets.

If that doesn't work, mess up their hardware :smallamused:.

JustSomeGuy

2012-07-11, 03:22 PM

No, I don't. If somebody or something makes me mad I ignore it, and usually it goes away. If it persists I get used to it and it loses it's infuriating quality.

Guy, read the thread: you should be dealing with your problems by force, that's what all history's winners did!

Wyntonian

2012-07-11, 03:23 PM

But that doesn't mean there aren't things we can do to fuss up their targeting software, get them to seek other targets.

If that doesn't work, mess up their hardware :smallamused:.

Tyndmyr

2012-07-11, 03:24 PM

I strongly disagree. My first job as a computer programmer ended with my boss punching me out in front of everyone else in the company. Broke my nose, too.

Couldn't prove it, because there were no witnesses willing to come forward.

I will say that my post-military programming career has had rather a lack of violence. The only thing that's popped up is when someone kicked in my door at home, once....and that was entirely random, as they had the wrong building.

I will also agree that there's probably some sampling bias in surveying Giantitp folks. There is a certain steriotype about geeks and being bullied. In general though, I agree with pendell. Stand up for yourself, but be smart about it. Frame the confrontation the way that's beneficial for you, and don't be the one initiating violence.

Whether it's "unfortunate" or not is subjective, isn't it?

I have a very punchable face. What I mean by that is, no matter how nice or pleasant or engaging I try to be, something about my behavior, appearance, and demeanor combine to really creep people out. This may be genetic (some kind of PDD/Autism spectrum thing), or it could simply be environmental. But either way, I send out very clear signals that I do not belong as part of the pack.

The simplest way to deal with this is to remove me from the pack - violently if possible.

Most of the people who react to someone like me can't really help it, you know? They're responding to biological imperatives to purge the pack.

That's...a bit negative.

Let me put it this way. Currently, I work in a coding shop. Everyone here is odd, in some way. The career is like a magnet to those with unusual personalities, and there is no shortage of antisocial types. Still, we don't beat people for not belonging. That's a bit outside the pale of appropriate behavior.

If you don't fit in with the group, there will be social awkwardness and the like...but it need not always be handled physically, and you should definitely strive to avoid being the target of that.

Whiffet

2012-07-11, 03:28 PM

*Wades boldly into dangerous territory*

As a child therapist, I ALWAYS use the same advice in regards to bullying:

1. It is always better to walk away and avoid the confrontation.

I recognize that some people can earn a mote of respect for standing up for themselves, but oftentimes... the failed attempt to do so makes situations even worse. I am also a firm believer in the fact that it is always possible to walk away. (Barring random incidents in dark alleys and what not). Most bullying victims "know" that something is coming.

2. I don't want anyone to fight, but I also don't expect anyone to just sit there are take it.

If all options of a verbal resolution, avoidance, etc have been eliminated, then start swinging. The consequences are already coming, so there is nothing to lose that isn't already in the process of being taken away from you by being beaten in the first place.

3. I am frustrated that so many people feel that 'ignoring' is an unsuccessful means of discouraging bullies.

"Bullies" are interetsed in two specific things. 1. A weaker "victim" and 2. a REACTION. If they fail to get this second need met, there is not POINT in bullying. People who continue to pursue this harrassment and "bullying" despite the fact that they are not getting a response, have transitioned into something beyond "bullying". That's just a disturbing need to see someone degraded for sadistic pleasure. In my opinion, this is an entirely different kind of animal...

I have no strong statistics to back up these claims, but I have some personal testimonies. Of the HUNDREDS IF NOT THOUSANDS of children that I have worked with, INEVITABLY the kids who come back and say they "just walked away":

1. Feel better about themselves (les depression & more confidence)
2. Are not in as much trouble
3. Occasionally settle differences with their former "bully"

You can't always walk away, you know. If you really believe this, you need to think again. Why, in elementary school, there was a bully who ended up in my class several times. His last name started with the same letter as mine, so every time we ended up in the same class we inevitably started the year sitting right next to each other when teachers made their seating charts in alphabetical order. We didn't use desks at that age; we sat at tables. So I had a bully sitting next to me in class, a mean little fellow who was quite good at taking advantage of moments when the teacher was on the other side of the room. Tell me, how was I supposed to walk away from that? That's mild compared to what other people here have gone through, too.

The problem with telling kids to "ignore" a bully is that it's hard for many kids (and adults, really) to hide that they're uncomfortable. The bully can still get a reaction if the kid is trying to ignore him/her; they can tell when their prey is squirming. All they have to do is keep pushing until the kid finally breaks. That can cause the reaction to be much stronger, too, so it may be even more pleasurable for the bully.

Also, there have been plenty of kids who interpreted "ignore it" to mean "don't do anything to stop it."

Ialdabaoth

2012-07-11, 03:31 PM

The problem with telling kids to "ignore" a bully is that it's hard for many kids (and adults, really) to hide that they're uncomfortable. The bully can still get a reaction if the kid is trying to ignore him/her; they can tell when their prey is squirming. All they have to do is keep pushing until the kid finally breaks. That can cause the reaction to be much stronger, too, so it may be even more pleasurable for the bully.

Oh yeah. The best part is when the kid breaks, and the VICTIM gets sent to the office.

Keep that up for a few years and you can get a kid to kill himself, which is like... the ultimate power trip.

Ialdabaoth

2012-07-11, 03:32 PM

Something else to consider is the Victim selection process (http://www.protectivestrategies.com/victim-selection.html). I believe bullies look for the same things in their victims -- lack of self-confidence, body language, etc . -- that criminals do. If so , you can take yourself "off their radar" by modifying your actions accordingly, stopping the bullying before it ever begins.

For many people, modifying their behavior isn't possible. Worse, for some people, any attempt to modify their behavior is itself punished.

If someone has cerebral palsy or down syndrome, they aren't going to be able to effectively modify their behavior. If someone is severely Autistic, they aren't going to be able to modify their behavior.

Of course, that leaves the rest of us, but how do you know who's who?

Really, it's no different from predators. Predators look for the weak, the sick, the isolated from the herd. Modify your verbal and body language not to send that signal, it's less likely you'll find yourself as a valid target on their internal software.

I want to make it 100% clear that this does NOT mean the victim is at fault or somehow deserved it.

Why doesn't it mean exactly that?

The bully is 100% at fault for his actions in attacking someone weaker than he.

The bully certainly doesn't think so, and in many cases neither do most of the people who are amused by his actions. And the thing is, even if your statement is true, and even if you don't mean it to assign blame, the bully and everyone who's amused by the bully will still hear you say it, and they will decide that your statement justified their actions.

But that doesn't mean there aren't things we can do to fuss up their targeting software, get them to seek other targets. It's worth trying, at any rate.

But if there's things that you think we can do, and we don't do them, doesn't that mean that if we don't do them you can feel like you've done your part and wash your hands of it?

AtlanteanTroll

2012-07-11, 03:37 PM

Guy, read the thread: you should be dealing with your problems by force, that's what all history's winners did!
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, as I have enough trouble with sarcasm in face to face interactions, but I seriously hope you are. If not, how about you go back and re-read the thread, as I've been actively posting in it for a good while.

And don't call me "guy." :smallannoyed:

Tell me, how was I supposed to walk away from that? That's mild compared to what other people here have gone through, too.
This is going to sound seriously sarcastic, but it's not. With your legs. I can't think of a more natural thing for a kid to do then to get up and walk to the teacher, point, and say "X has been hitting me, make him stop." Especially for an Elementary school kid who isn't going to be (as) neurotic about any possible negative social results.

The bully certainly doesn't think so, and in many cases neither do most of the people who are amused by his actions.
Does that actually matter though? It's what the person whose being bullied thinks in this case that actually matters.

Ialdabaoth

2012-07-11, 03:38 PM

Ialdabaoth

2012-07-11, 03:40 PM

This is going to sound seriously sarcastic, but it's not. With your legs. I can't think of a more natural thing for a kid to do then to get up and walk to the teacher, point, and say "X has been hitting me, make him stop." Especially for an Elementary school kid who isn't going to be (as) neurotic about any possible negative social results.

I did exactly that, and got sent to the principle. The principle was VERY nervous about the whole thing. It took awhile for me to figure out what was up, until I looked around and saw all the donation plaques (it was a private school) - they were the names of all the parents of the bullies.

Authorities are useless.

Does that actually matter though? It's what the person whose being bullied thinks in this case that actually matters.

Why does ANYTHING about a victim matter, except the delicious whimpering sounds they make? If anything about the victim mattered, they wouldn't be victims.

I'm sorry, but everything you're saying is coming from someone whose soul hasn't been utterly, permanently crushed. You just don't get it.

Squark

2012-07-11, 03:45 PM

I think a generalization of Smelly Hippie's rules would be that the easiest way to stop bullying is to create a situation in which the bully's most favorable option is to just stop. For a lot of bullies, that can be accomplished by simply not giving them the response they want. However, identifying what responses the bully doesn't want (A fair number of bullies love pursuit, and remaining totally statuesque is both difficult, and not 100% effective, either) is difficult, and you need to be sure that the bully won't attempt to elicit the desired reaction through escalation (and occasionally, you get the downright monsters who just want to inflict harm, but those are the exceptions, not the rules).

On School Discipline: It's a complex issue. As a general rule, most teachers genuinely want to help students, and most of the rest used to belong to the former category, but are now too jaded to bother (And of course there's the small but visible minority that are just monsters who should never have been given a teacher's license, but the sad fact of the matter is that if it were easy to spot those people, we'd have done it). The problem is how to actually solve the problem.

1) On the topic of touching: Teachers can't touch students. Why? Because standards are clear that teachers can no longer hurt students. But not all touching is hurtful, or perhaps only harmless physical punishments, you say? Certainly, but try finding a definition that will stop all hitting but still allow some physical contact, and you'll end up with a monolithic book of legal jargon that still often won't cover everything. Couple that with (entirely justified) concerns about preventing sexual harassment and abuse, and it's easier to just put a blanket ban on teacher-student contact. Is it the best solution? Probably not. But schools are already under a lot of pressure (American schools in particular), and sometimes, the imperfect but expedient rout seems like the best course of action.

2) Parental issues: If parents work together with the school to correct their child's misbehavior, its often successful. But, let's face it, a lot of parents won't see eye to eye with the school. Some have their own issues (be it substance based or mental), some are simply too busy with trying to support a family, sometimes there's a cultural disconnect (A problem with poorer, inner city schools is that a lot of the kids come from an environment that tells them that school is a complete waste of time), and then there's the fact that even when the parents are willing to work with the school, finding a course of action that actually works and both parties can agree on is an achievement in and of itself. And since bullies often come from a family that falls into one of the more difficult categories, this is that much harder.

3) Time management: An elementary school teacher is responsible for anywhere from 20-35 children (possible more, if the school district is particularly pressed for space), and a middle or high school teacher sees a group that size 4-8 times a day, depending on how many classes they teach. And let us not forget that these teachers are not just overpayed babysitters, but they're also responsible for, you know, actually teaching those children. Then factor in several hours of prep work and grading, and... Look, teachers have a difficult job. It takes a special person to be a good teacher who can educate their students while also watching out for the well being over every one of their students, and, to put it bluntly, there aren't enough to go around (and the fact that at least in America, the best and brightest often go off to better paying, less stressful jobs elsewhere certainly doesn't help). So, really, while its easy to talk about teachers neglecting to solve the problem when they see it, the fact is, they often don't (bullies being clever enough to avoid adult oversight), and even if they do... they can't always do much about it. My first 3rd grade teacher's only real option to help me, for instance, was to risk her own neck (at least, I don't think teachers are supposed to do this), and tell my parents, "Get this kid out of this school before he gets hurt."

And... once again, I've managed to say, "Look, this is a complicated issue with no clear solution," but in a whole lot more words.

snoopy13a

2012-07-11, 03:46 PM

*Wades boldly into dangerous territory*

3. I am frustrated that so many people feel that 'ignoring' is an unsuccessful means of discouraging bullies.

"Bullies" are interetsed in two specific things. 1. A weaker "victim" and 2. a REACTION. If they fail to get this second need met, there is not POINT in bullying. People who continue to pursue this harrassment and "bullying" despite the fact that they are not getting a response, have transitioned into something beyond "bullying". That's just a disturbing need to see someone degraded for sadistic pleasure. In my opinion, this is an entirely different kind of animal...

Bullies can get a reaction via their friends' approval. It is the same principle as when people talk about someone behind his back. Bullying is often about power. While the stereotypical loner, outsider bully exists, so does the popular bully who bullies simply because he can.

Ialdabaoth

2012-07-11, 03:48 PM

And... once again, I've managed to say, "Look, this is a complicated issue with no clear solution," but in a whole lot more words.

And my cynical black heart says that the simple and clear solution has been staring at us the whole time, right there in Lord of the Flies - which is already required reading for most highschoolers.

AtlanteanTroll

2012-07-11, 03:50 PM

Authorities are useless.
Everyone is going to have different experiences with the authorities, but please stop trying to pass that off as fact, as it isn't one.

Why does ANYTHING about a victim matter, except the delicious whimpering sounds they make? If anything about the victim mattered, they wouldn't be victims.

I'm sorry, but everything you're saying is coming from someone whose soul hasn't been utterly, permanently crushed. You just don't get it.
Don't get what, exactly? That the people who are being bullied are at fault? Because that's what I was responding to. And if that is the case, then you're right, I don't get it.

A negative attitude is only going to put you more out of place, which, according to you, is the primary reason you've been bullied throughout your life. And your knee-jerk reaction to demeaning yourself when sympathized with isn't going to make you less of a target, it just signals you out all the more.

And while I may not have been hit in the back of the head with a lead pipe, I've known despair from some things in my life. "Fake it till you make it." It's amazing what some perceived confidence can do. Eventually it will become real confidence and people will mess with you less and less until they don't anymore.

And my cynical black heart says that the simple and clear solution has been staring at us the whole time, right there in Lord of the Flies - which is already required reading for most highschoolers.

You do realize that's a cautionary tale of what exactly not to do.