How to foster teamwork

[yougi]

Hey guys,

Once again, this DM needs some help. I have this group that is very... not team-y. While I enjoy in-character feuds within the team, it is rather in-player feuds. Let's see who we got here.

1- This player is rather shy, but is a really good RPer... when given an opportunity. He won't, however, take that opportunity for himself. He plays a LN Minotaur (from Dragonlance) Barbarian/Fighter.

2- This player likes to RP, to problem solve, to fight and to build his character. A pretty solid player all around, he plays a CN Rogue/Ranger.

3- This player is a big fan of RP, and ask himself "what would my character do" before doing anything at all. He plays a NE Gnome Illusionist.

4- This player likes to build characters. After building his first character, he asked me every day if he could change a feat he took, or put his points in another skill, or change his languages spoken, in order to attain this or that prestige class' pre-reqs (which I say no to). He also has a short attention span, and after 5 minutes of discussion, he Leeroy Jenkins in. He plays a TN Elven Cleric of Fharlanghn (god of roads), with a few modifications (he traded heavy armor for light armor and a paladin's mount).

5- This guy plays RPGs for the power trip, which leads to him losing his character every other session (literally until recently). Now, he's settled on an Elven Bard, CG, with 6 Str and very low HP (14 at lv4), which means he doesn't charge into the fray as much.

Now that has lead to some tension in the group: 3 of them are there for the actual story, the other 2 are there Diablo style (XP AND PHAT LOOTZ WOOT!). If they ever have to plan, usually those interested in planning think but don't talk, those uninterested talk but don't think, and the wizard just does his one-man trick. When I send them enemies for which they'll have to plan, they don't, they charge in, get their asses kicked, lose a guy and leave.

The Bard seems like he'd be into a "regular" game, and while I'm not sure about the Cleric. Now, while some of you will say "get rid of the guy already", I'd like to know if there are any other solutions beforehand.

tl;dr:

in the group: 3 of them are there for the actual story, the other 2 are there Diablo style (XP AND PHAT LOOTZ WOOT!). If they ever have to plan, usually those interested in planning think but don't talk, those uninterested talk but don't think, and the wizard just does his one-man trick.

[Stubbazubba]

This might sound like a cliche answer by this point, but have you tried talking to them OOC? Tell your players how you imagine the game going, and ask them if they'd be willing to try that out for a while, so that the Diablo guys can (hopefully) consciously decide to step out of that mindset and see if they like the planning, maybe even RPing aspects here.

And with that, tell your players that you will be rewarding them for plans. Give them a little bit of XP just for making a plan beyond "we run in and stab everything 'til it stops moving and take whatever's not fused to the walls with us." Then, if that plan pays off, multiply the XP they get when they win, or throw in more magic items, or both. The Diablo guys want to level-up and get new shinies, so just tell them that making a good plan is the only way that's gonna happen at your table, and that they can totally do it. Be positive about it, don't make it sound like you're punishing them for being troglodytes or anything, instead make it sound like you're giving them a big clue for how they can best get what they want out of the game, because that's really all you're doing.

Just make these expectations clear right when you sit down next session, and although it might be a little clunky getting off the ground with it, when the players know that getting the in-game rewards they want depends on a certain behavior, they will embrace that behavior. Problem solved.

[Yukitsu]

Teamwork mostly comes from the team. An outside source can only really do so much. If they don't function that well as a team, that's pretty much OK, just try to make sure the game has something for all of them, and that they're all having fun.

[dps]

Teamwork mostly comes from the team. An outside source can only really do so much. If they don't function that well as a team, that's pretty much OK, just try to make sure the game has something for all of them, and that they're all having fun.

Yeah, if getting their asses kicked and constantly loosing party members doesn't motivate them to plan and work together, I don't think anything in-game will do so. It's still probably worth a shot to just straight-out tell them OOC that you are designing settings and situations for them in which they need to plan ahead and work together in order to be successful, but given that 2 of them are apparantly only interested in hacking and slashing, I wouldn't get your hopes up for that approach, either.

[inexorabletruth]

Give the chemistry time to develop.

It takes a while for players to get the feel for each other and find a niche that melds well with other play styles. Also, throw a little of this and that at them.

My two favorite ways to do this are:
Alternate quest types: Run a session of kick-in-the-door, then reveal a conspiracy plot behind it. Maybe that BBEG wasn't so BB after all. Or maybe he was only a cog in a much greater wheel... whatever, makes them go back into town for some good RP with the local NPC who always seems to have enough information to give the PCs a plot hook.

Split em up: How about a session that requires delegation? Send them off on a session that requires the "HULK SMASH" types to go create a diversion, lead a frontal assault, what-have-you, while your planners and strategists take the back-way in through the secret tunnel to catch the session boss by surprise.

I'm using obtuse and generalized game concepts to get my point across, but you can apply this strategy to nearly any session or campaign type, with a little tweaking.

If worse comes to worse, you can pull out the DMPC to get them all to hop on the Fiat Express. It's bad mojo to railroad a campaign... especially when using a DMPC to do it, but a little leadership goes a long way. Maybe it'll help give the game some focus. Just make sure to get that DMPC out of there before (s)he turns into a Mary Sue.

[Jay R]

Teamwork isn't a game technique you can learn, it's a way to set priorities for how you will use your game techniques.

It requires the difficult, mature decision to make other people's goals as important to you as your personal goals. Throughout the history of the world, bosses, leaders, generals, priests, presidents, CEOs, and parents have all tried to teach teamwork, and all with mixed levels of success

If I knew a guaranteed way to build teamwork, I promise you that I wouldn't be spending time on D&D forums.

I'd be making millions of dollars doing management training.

[Grail]

Teamwork isn't a game technique you can learn, it's a way to set priorities for how you will use your game techniques.

It requires the difficult, mature decision to make other people's goals as important to you as your personal goals. Throughout the history of the world, bosses, leaders, generals, priests, presidents, CEOs, and parents have all tried to teach teamwork, and all with mixed levels of success

If I knew a guaranteed way to build teamwork, I promise you that I wouldn't be spending time on D&D forums.

I'd be making millions of dollars doing management training.

This X2.

Not only that, but take into consideration that not every player is good at making plans. Maybe they've tried in the past, it's not worked and now they're once bitten twice shy. I have seen this quite often in my 30 odd years of roleplaying. Sometimes the players make a plan that sucks. And sometimes when this happens, as a DM you've got to let it be successful or at the least be partially successful.

Also, if you want to get technical, if the players are roleplaying their characters well, then who's to say that they will be able to work together.

Lawful Neutral will have issues working with the Chaotic Neutral character.
Neutral Evil will have issues working with just about all the characters. etc etc

And why do you feel the need to make mention that player 5 won't charge into the fray as much? So, he's not a front line fighter. Bards shouldn't be charging into the fray.

[ZeroGear]

Going with the above "split the group" suggestion, have you tried running a completely non-combat session?
Try introducing a scenario where fighting will do no good, like a diplomatic meeting.
You could also try isolating the characters after confiscating all their items, having them kept is separate parts of a prison where they meet up with other members as each one finds a way to escape. Mazes are perfect for this, especially if you combine them with that portal form the "Tomb of Elemental Evil" that only teleports living creatures (leaving their gear behind). Add in a force specialized boss who can forcibly pull people through the portal, and a magic circle that teleports those stepping onto it to a random location (such as in a maze) and you have a decent setup for giving people a chance to adapt.

If you are wondering how this has anything to do with teamwork, consider this:
-If the people who are serious about gaming all meet up, they each have a chance to work with each other.
-If the two Diabolo mentality guys are grouped up, they have to work with each other.
-By simply throwing in a few watered-down monsters, and items that could be potentially helpful, such as triggered pits, improvised weapons, ledges with deep falls; you place more value on group work than on just beating the creature with a big sword.

In the end, however, the other guys on this thread are right, and you may have to intervene OOC if these ideas do not help.

[Talakeal]

I have been having some major issues with team work in my group recently, and was going to post something similar before larger issues derailed my whole game.

One of the bigger problems is that people don't believe they are contributing unless they are doing damage (or possibly battlefield control). That if they are soaking damage, buffing, healing, or being a skill monkey that they are not doing anything, rather they are just helping the other players do something.

I see this argument all the time, at my table, on this forum, and especially in MMOs where the "dps" players outnumber all the other roles 5 to 1.

My players also have trouble understanding it is better to divide up resources. For example, the casters will buff the "tank’s AC until they can't be hit, and then are mystified when the monsters ignore the tank and instead go smash the other party members who have no magical protections. Or a group of enemies will attack the "back lines" and the mage responds by teleporting away, leaving the bard and the archer to take 50% more hits and risking death.

I am not sure what I can do is a DM. I see their mistakes, but if I point them out I am "making fun of them". If I tell them beforehand I am "telling them what to do". And if I make fights harder so they need teamwork to win I am "screwing them over by being a killer DM".

[jackattack]

Try some traps or puzzles that can only be disarmed/solved by working together.

Example: To disarm the trap that is flooding the room, one character has to hold a lever, and another has to turn a valve that is set in the ceiling -- 15 feet up.

Example: The door leading into the next section of the dungeon is two heavy steel plates hinged so that gravity holds them closed. It takes two men on each plate to hold it open far enough for another man to squeeze through.

Create opponents that require teamwork to defeat.

Example: A construct has three apparent vulnerable spots -- jewels set in its forehead, and the back of each hand. Destroy one, and it just regenerates. All three have to be destroyed at the same time.

Example: A vampire has become so powerful that it has to be exposed to sunlight for the other traditional vulnerabilities to work. One PC has to hold a mirror to keep it lit up, one PC has to keep the vampire's minions off the mirror-holder, and the others have to kill it with silver, wood, and/or fire.

[yougi]

Give the chemistry time to develop.

It takes a while for players to get the feel for each other and find a niche that melds well with other play styles. Also, throw a little of this and that at them.

My two favorite ways to do this are:
Alternate quest types: Run a session of kick-in-the-door, then reveal a conspiracy plot behind it. Maybe that BBEG wasn't so BB after all. Or maybe he was only a cog in a much greater wheel... whatever, makes them go back into town for some good RP with the local NPC who always seems to have enough information to give the PCs a plot hook.

Split em up: How about a session that requires delegation? Send them off on a session that requires the "HULK SMASH" types to go create a diversion, lead a frontal assault, what-have-you, while your planners and strategists take the back-way in through the secret tunnel to catch the session boss by surprise.

I'm using obtuse and generalized game concepts to get my point across, but you can apply this strategy to nearly any session or campaign type, with a little tweaking.

If worse comes to worse, you can pull out the DMPC to get them all to hop on the Fiat Express. It's bad mojo to railroad a campaign... especially when using a DMPC to do it, but a little leadership goes a long way. Maybe it'll help give the game some focus. Just make sure to get that DMPC out of there before (s)he turns into a Mary Sue.

I did try a whodunnit, and honestly, it was SOOOOOOOOOOO boring. They just don't get into it at all. Now the next quest they'll embark on is Paizo's Tower of the Last Baron, a much more diplomatic one.


Also, if you want to get technical, if the players are roleplaying their characters well, then who's to say that they will be able to work together.

Lawful Neutral will have issues working with the Chaotic Neutral character.
Neutral Evil will have issues working with just about all the characters. etc etc

And why do you feel the need to make mention that player 5 won't charge into the fray as much? So, he's not a front line fighter. Bards shouldn't be charging into the fray.

Yes, totally agree with you. I, as a player in another game, am playing a CN wizard who is incredibly boastful and likes to do exactly the opposite of honor (kill them in their sleep, or after having questioned them, that kind of stuff). One other player decided, after a near-TPK, to create a Paladin. We have so much fun it is incredible. However, in the case I presented here, it's not the characters who argue, it's the players. That's not nearly as fun.

And the reason why I pointed out he wouldn't charge into the fray is that before he did, regardless of the character he was playing, and that made him lose a character every other session or so. Now, with his bard, he doesn't, because even he is not judgmentally impaired enough to do that with this particular character.


Going with the above "split the group" suggestion, have you tried running a completely non-combat session?
Try introducing a scenario where fighting will do no good, like a diplomatic meeting.
You could also try isolating the characters after confiscating all their items, having them kept is separate parts of a prison where they meet up with other members as each one finds a way to escape. Mazes are perfect for this, especially if you combine them with that portal form the "Tomb of Elemental Evil" that only teleports living creatures (leaving their gear behind). Add in a force specialized boss who can forcibly pull people through the portal, and a magic circle that teleports those stepping onto it to a random location (such as in a maze) and you have a decent setup for giving people a chance to adapt.

If you are wondering how this has anything to do with teamwork, consider this:
-If the people who are serious about gaming all meet up, they each have a chance to work with each other.
-If the two Diabolo mentality guys are grouped up, they have to work with each other.
-By simply throwing in a few watered-down monsters, and items that could be potentially helpful, such as triggered pits, improvised weapons, ledges with deep falls; you place more value on group work than on just beating the creature with a big sword.

In the end, however, the other guys on this thread are right, and you may have to intervene OOC if these ideas do not help.

This could also be an idea. I usually am not really into splitting the party, but maybe this could work... Although now, the two chargers are lame archers, and cannot survive on their own.


I have been having some major issues with team work in my group recently, and was going to post something similar before larger issues derailed my whole game.

One of the bigger problems is that people don't believe they are contributing unless they are doing damage (or possibly battlefield control). That if they are soaking damage, buffing, healing, or being a skill monkey that they are not doing anything, rather they are just helping the other players do something.

I see this argument all the time, at my table, on this forum, and especially in MMOs where the "dps" players outnumber all the other roles 5 to 1.

My players also have trouble understanding it is better to divide up resources. For example, the casters will buff the "tank’s AC until they can't be hit, and then are mystified when the monsters ignore the tank and instead go smash the other party members who have no magical protections. Or a group of enemies will attack the "back lines" and the mage responds by teleporting away, leaving the bard and the archer to take 50% more hits and risking death.

I am not sure what I can do is a DM. I see their mistakes, but if I point them out I am "making fun of them". If I tell them beforehand I am "telling them what to do". And if I make fights harder so they need teamwork to win I am "screwing them over by being a killer DM".

Amen. When a PC is minmax'd and has a really huge hole, genius NPCs taking advantage of it is somehow seen as cheating. However, they feel no regret doing the exact same thing.


Try some traps or puzzles that can only be disarmed/solved by working together.

Example: To disarm the trap that is flooding the room, one character has to hold a lever, and another has to turn a valve that is set in the ceiling -- 15 feet up.

Example: The door leading into the next section of the dungeon is two heavy steel plates hinged so that gravity holds them closed. It takes two men on each plate to hold it open far enough for another man to squeeze through.

Create opponents that require teamwork to defeat.

Example: A construct has three apparent vulnerable spots -- jewels set in its forehead, and the back of each hand. Destroy one, and it just regenerates. All three have to be destroyed at the same time.

Example: A vampire has become so powerful that it has to be exposed to sunlight for the other traditional vulnerabilities to work. One PC has to hold a mirror to keep it lit up, one PC has to keep the vampire's minions off the mirror-holder, and the others have to kill it with silver, wood, and/or fire.

I tried things like that. The thing is, they don't get to making these plans. If they start making plans, the Diablo guys complain, and say "I charge in." If somebody says "no, you stay here", they only say "I'm already gone", at which point it goes to chaos. It got to the point where the Minotaur tells me that he holds them both by the collar, a few inches above ground (which is well within his weight allowed with his 20 Strength) so they won't run everywhere.

I guess I'll have to talk to them OOC. This week, one of the two Diablo guys was absent, the other (the bard) was really into making plans and stuff. I'm starting to zero in on the problem...

[Driderman]

I guess I'll have to talk to them OOC. This week, one of the two Diablo guys was absent, the other (the bard) was really into making plans and stuff. I'm starting to zero in on the problem...

If you can encourage one of them to roleplay instead of rollplay, the other one might start to get into it as well. That, or find a group that fits his playstyle more.

[CET]

+1 suggestion for the OOC approach, since it sounds like this is firmly an OOC problem.

Also, for what it's worth, different player goals doesn't have to be a problem. Most of the groups I've gamed with have at least one powergamer and at least one player who is perfectly happy to spend the whole session on diplomacy and social maneuvering. The key is that all the players have to willing to compromise on playstyle a little, and to act like they are in it together.