Problem with the group: I'm not a SuperNova.

[Lisselys]

Ok guys, I think i really
I'm playing as a level 9 Wizard/Incantatrix, who focuses firstly on buff/Debuff and after them (Which means just two rounds tops, really) I usually blast something trying to avoid using all the high spells I have.
My group, however, has lots of problem with this. We are a Paladin (Pure, Melee) a Dwarf Warrior/Favored Soul/Hammer of Moradin (Meleer too) , a Cleric 9 (A cohort, focused on healing and divination) and me.
They find my damage output unsufficient, and since I didn't focus my spell list and my feats on damage I don't know what to do. The real problem is not that I want to be a damage dealer, I'm perfectly fine with buffing and debuffing, I think it's extremely fun and appropriate for a mage, but the constant "attacks" from my party, DM included, are starting to be a little too much.

Just to clarify, I'll give an example:
We're in the middle of a dungeon, and lots animated statues attacks us. I block many of them with a Solid Fog giving time to me and the cleric to get away from the mess, and let the paladin and the Dwarf handle the situation. They start attacking and I enlarge and Haste them while the cleric uses dancing blade and Spiritual weapon to attack. Then I use some spells to attack, and fortunately we won.
But for the only fact that I didn't kill anyone directly (And some problems with 6 swarms that I tried to attack and failed to do so) they started mocking me (Even if lightly, I have to admit. They've never been arrogant or really bad)

I'm really tired of this situation, I tried to explain my point many times, I even tried to just blast things off but I didn't have fun, since I was there dealing damage while the paladin and the Dwarf stood there watching me killing the BBEG in two rounds.
I don't know what to do in this situation, we're in a point where I can't even change my character. I was almost dying once (Unfortunately I was happy about that, and I'm really attached to this character...) but the Dm changed his rolls to avoid my death.

What would you do, playground?

[The Glyphstone]

In the next fight, don't buff them or debuff the enemies. Protect yourself with invisibility or something, force the DM to fudge horribly to keep them alive. Then smugly point out how much easier the fight would have been if you had been contributing as you usually do.

[Flickerdart]

Tell them that you don't enjoy blasting and prefer to support the others while they do the swording?

[Tim Proctor]

Grab a reserve feat that deals damage, like Storm Bolt (Complete Mage, p. 47), with a 5th level spell that is 5d6 damage that you can use over and over again. Nothing to scoff at, keeps your big spell available for when you really need it but give you the ability to blast some stuff while not harming your abilities. You just need to look at your 5th level spells and the Reserve Feats and see what matches up and gives you the best bang for your buck.

[Lisselys]

In the next fight, don't buff them or debuff the enemies. Protect yourself with invisibility or something, force the DM to fudge horribly to keep them alive. Then smugly point out how much easier the fight would have been if you had been contributing as you usually do.

As I said I did this being a GC for some time, exploding enemies, but it didn't work out since they just played for themselves letting MY character die against the bbeg :smallannoyed:
If you mean that I should avoid being part of the game, well, I'm not kind of that person, I'd feel like being a jerk (Can I say that word? I'm a foreigner, I don't really know if it's a "bad" or "accepted" word).


Tell them that you don't enjoy blasting and prefer to support the others while they do the swording?
As I said I told them, that's the problem... They even appreciate having their numbers upped to the sky, but that's not enough I guess.

Edit:

Grab a reserve feat that deals damage, like Storm Bolt (Complete Mage, p. 47), with a 5th level spell that is 5d6 damage that you can use over and over again. Nothing to scoff at, keeps your big spell available for when you really need it but give you the ability to blast some stuff while not harming your abilities. You just need to look at your 5th level spells and the Reserve Feats and see what matches up and gives you the best bang for your buck.

I talked to him, and his answer was... No. No reserve feats.
But the real problem is not about the 5d6, since I'm good enough with casters to always have some spells available like Lesser Orb of acid, the problem is that low damage good control isn't good, while High damage and no control isn't good too.
I don't really know how to handle it!

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

God-mode it. Win by yourself. Then be pompous about it.

[Thomasinx]

As I said I did this being a GC for some time, exploding enemies, but it didn't work out since they just played for themselves letting MY character die against the bbeg :smallannoyed:
If you mean that I should avoid being part of the game, well, I'm not kind of that person, I'd feel like being a jerk (Can I say that word? I'm a foreigner, I don't really know if it's a "bad" or "accepted" word).


So they want you to solo the bosses without their help? I'd try the same tactic again, and just keep away from the BBEG. Things like dimension door and ethereal Jaunt are excellent for this. Same with fly. It helps a lot if you use personal buffs (not team-buffs).

The DM can't have the BBEG focus entirely on you if you're doing your best to stay away, unless the DM is being a jerk. (and yes, 'jerk' is a perfectly fine word. It's too mild to be considered "bad").

The whole point of the melee characters should be that they do their best to stand in the way of the BBEG. If they won't even do that, you can ask them what they are contributing to the fight, since they don't seem to be doing very much. If the BBEG is hitting you, run away until it hits someone else.

I'd also memorize fewer damage spells and go for more Save-or-Lose/Die spells. Shivering Touch (from Frostburn) is wonderful for any situation where the target doesnt have high dex. If the target has a low fort-save, use baleful polymorph. Low will-save, use Hold-Monster. A group of monsters? use Fear. If all else fails and the DM just won't stop chasing you with the BBEG, just use Polymorph.

The least powerful type of wizard is the one that does damage. Heck, look at warmage. It does damage spells much better than the wizard, yet the wizard is considered a significantly better class, simply because damage spells are usually the least efficient of a wizard's spells.

[Arbane]

You're a wizard, so getting new spells is easy. If you can't do Evocation, get Summon Monster (whichever) and start flooding the battlefield with minions. Or load up on save-or-lose spells. Or take Teleport and let THEM fight without you if you're annoyed enough.

[Tim Proctor]

I talked to him, and his answer was... No. No reserve feats.
But the real problem is not about the 5d6, since I'm good enough with casters to always have some spells available like Lesser Orb of acid, the problem is that low damage good control isn't good, while High damage and no control isn't good too.
I don't really know how to handle it!

Since your DM wants to be a ****, here is what I would do. 1) go shopping, insist that you make Gather Information checks for really weird items and go chasing them. 2) roll sense motive checks for every NPC that you see, make your DM tell you want you sense and find a way to think that they are under control of some evil vampire or something and kill them. 3) use knowledge checks to identify monsters and make the DM give you descriptions and all sorts of stuff. 4) buy a lot of ponies, tell your group is it to carry all the loot and that they are cheaper than bags of holding. 5) get improved familiar and get a pony, this will allow you to talk to all of the ponies that you bought. 6) ploymorph them into hot chicks and have sex with them. 7) tell your DM that when you're allow to get the feats listed in the books that you'll stop trolling. 8) when your DM still doesn't allow you to have reserve feats get the spell Troll Shape and then turn into a Troll each battle and tell your group that you have to guard your herd of ponies.

Either that or go Initiate of the Seven Veils and then go on full pwn mode. Yup, I agree with QuickLyRaiNbow, just pwn everything.

[maysarahs]

My first ever group did this and I HATED it. Granted they were jerks (this is acceptable to say) and enjoyed constantly making fun of the fact that I had poor BAB, and whatnot. My solution to this might be a very intensive one: As a buffer/debuffer you are actually possibly contributing the most. Since damage seems to be their metric of efficacy, I might suggest that from now on whenever you buff someone, you make sure that the number difference in damage they deal is properly attributed to you. When you enlarge someone, take the average difference in damage that they'd put out and point out that that is actually your damage. Don't forget to add in to-hit bonuses you provide as being a higher percentage chance that your damage is granted! In terms of debuffs, when you solid fogged those statues, you prevented them from flanking all of your allies, thus you effectively contributed +2 AC (or rather being 10% harder to hit) to each of them. It may take a little bit of creative thinking to figure out your utility, but it is there once you point it out. (If the statues had had sneak attacks, you effectively healed ALL of them of xd6 hit points at the same time with one action.) Thus you are able to contribute more with your one debuff/control/buff actions than most of them combined.

On top of that, you can give them a long-suffering sigh and tell them that damage is almost the most useless metric of "what one brings to the party" ever because on top of all of your above proof, you are still a wizard who can do almost anything given the preparation

[Hiro Protagonest]

Ask if you can rebuild your character to deal more damage. Since they're constantly nagging you about it, they should be fine with it. Then build this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer), except use Incantatrix MM reducers instead of sorcerer MM reducers, so that you can have the room for knowing some defensive spells. Prepare defenses at the start of every day, like a Contingent Dimension Door (with the terms "an attack gets past your AC, miss chance, and DR", or something like that), a Persisted Displacement, and a Persisted Stoneskin. Or, a Persisted Ironguard instead of the Stoneskin. Get a Cloak of Resistance, it'll be a good defense against save-targeting spells.

Then lay down your Maximized Empowered Orbs, with a metamagicked Fireball or two to deal with crowds.

[Lisselys]

So they want you to solo the bosses without their help? I'd try the same tactic again, and just keep away from the BBEG. Things like dimension door and ethereal Jaunt are excellent for this. Same with fly. It helps a lot if you use personal buffs (not team-buffs).

The DM can't have the BBEG focus entirely on you if you're doing your best to stay away, unless the DM is being a jerk. (and yes, 'jerk' is a perfectly fine word. It's too mild to be considered "bad").

The whole point of the melee characters should be that they do their best to stand in the way of the BBEG. If they won't even do that, you can ask them what they are contributing to the fight, since they don't seem to be doing very much. If the BBEG is hitting you, run away until it hits someone else.

I'd also memorize fewer damage spells and go for more Save-or-Lose/Die spells. Shivering Touch (from Frostburn) is wonderful for any situation where the target doesnt have high dex. If the target has a low fort-save, use baleful polymorph. Low will-save, use Hold-Monster. A group of monsters? use Fear. If all else fails and the DM just won't stop chasing you with the BBEG, just use Polymorph.

The least powerful type of wizard is the one that does damage. Heck, look at warmage. It does damage spells much better than the wizard, yet the wizard is considered a significantly better class, simply because damage spells are usually the least efficient of a wizard's spells.

About the BBEG, the problem has been that he was killing basically everyone, everyone was on the brink of death except me, the one who did most damage (I killed a baby Dragon and some servants while they took damage and couldn't hit the BBEG, a mage).
Since I did the most damage the mage thought I was the most dangerous and tried to kill me. We kind of brought each other down to the last Hp's, but he was a level higher and rolled better than me, so I died.
Shivering touch is in another NO manual, so it's another idea gone... I'll try with save or lose, even if I personally HATE them, but probably it's the only choice.


You're a wizard, so getting new spells is easy. If you can't do Evocation, get Summon Monster (whichever) and start flooding the battlefield with minions. Or load up on save-or-lose spells. Or take Teleport and let THEM fight without you if you're annoyed enough.
I already tried summoning. They gave the merit to the summons blaming me for being weaker than them!!!

[King Atticus]

5) get improved familiar and get a pony, this will allow you to talk to all of the ponies that you bought. 6) ploymorph them into hot chicks and have sex with them.

This is just...disturbing. Making everyone uncomfortable by thinly veiled bestiality is only going to get you kicked out of the group.

My advice would be just play your character how you want to play him and in so doing force everyone else in the group to change their foolish, blasty-wizard stereotypes. It might take putting up with some snide comments from them for a while but hopefully they'll get bored with their own whining eventually.

Stand firm and play your character how you want!

[Telonius]

Okay, so they want a supernova? I'm with Tim and Quickly. Give them a supernova. The next two encounters, unleash arcane fury. Pull every shenanigan in the book. Kill all the enemies by yourself. Make sure the rest of your team can't even approach the enemies. When the smoke clears, tell them, "I could keep doing this if you want, but you gentlemen seemed to have such fun hitting things with your swords. I didn't want to deny you the pleasure." Bonus points if you're sipping a cup of tea while you do this.

[Novawurmson]

Anyone have a link to calculations of how Haste does more damage, on average, than Fireball? My google-fu is failing.

[Virulity]

If they already allowed Incantatrix, which I'm assuming they did since you were allowed to prestige into it, then just go mailman. Or try and build a god wizard (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19873034/Treantmonks_guide_to_Wizards:_Being_a_God), neuter every enemy you come across.

Now that I think about it a God wizard would probably be better if you don't enjoy direct damage, it is more apparent that you are effecting the encounter and you can still buff on the side.

[Kansaschaser]

In the next fight, don't buff them or debuff the enemies. Protect yourself with invisibility or something, force the DM to fudge horribly to keep them alive. Then smugly point out how much easier the fight would have been if you had been contributing as you usually do.

That's a really mean and vindictive thing to do. :smallannoyed:

I'd just do what the party asked. I would memorized a bunch of evocation/conjuration spells that focus on damage. Then in combat I would blast things as much as I could. After a few combats, they will see that the buff/debuff spells were much better.

[kitcik]

In the next fight, don't buff them or debuff the enemies. Protect yourself with invisibility or something, force the DM to fudge horribly to keep them alive. Then smugly point out how much easier the fight would have been if you had been contributing as you usually do.

In the next fight, buff the enemies and debuff them. Protect yourself with invisibility or something. Then smugly point out how much nicer it would be if you weren't looting their bodies.

[Tyndmyr]

I don't know what to do in this situation, we're in a point where I can't even change my character. I was almost dying once (Unfortunately I was happy about that, and I'm really attached to this character...) but the Dm changed his rolls to avoid my death.

What would you do, playground?

I'd talk to my DM about expected consequences. He probably thinks he's doing you a favor by not killing you and fudging the rolls...if this makes you unhappy, let him know.

Additionally, I find that a policy of "no buffs for the unbelievers" is amazingly effective.

[The Glyphstone]

That's a really mean and vindictive thing to do.

I'd just do what the party asked. I would memorized a bunch of evocation/conjuration spells that focus on damage. Then in combat I would blast things as much as I could. After a few combats, they will see that the buff/debuff spells were much better.

It's very mean and vindictive, but they deserve it. He's tried talking to them OOC, they continue to mock and belittle him. Some people can only learn by nasty, obvious lessons. If those fail, do this:


In the next fight, buff the enemies and debuff them. Protect yourself with invisibility or something. Then smugly point out how much nicer it would be if you weren't looting their bodies.


Or not, because that's a actual jerk move.:smallbiggrin:

[jaybird]

The mature solution: talk it out with them, point out just how much buffs/debuffs help, and explain the concept of a "force multiplier".

The 'eye for an eye' solution: build a Mailman and win (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer).

[gorfnab]

In the next fight, don't buff them or debuff the enemies. Protect yourself with invisibility or something, force the DM to fudge horribly to keep them alive. Then smugly point out how much easier the fight would have been if you had been contributing as you usually do.
I am reminded of a quote I saw on these boards awhile ago about a battlefield control wizard. "A good wizard is like a good bassist. You don't notice them until they leave."

[Shpadoinkle]

My solution to this might be a very intensive one: As a buffer/debuffer you are actually possibly contributing the most. Since damage seems to be their metric of efficacy, I might suggest that from now on whenever you buff someone, you make sure that the number difference in damage they deal is properly attributed to you.

I very, very heartily second this.

You ARE doing damage to the enemies, you're just funneling it through your teammates first. If they still have a problem with this, I'd go with the "don't cast any spells besides stuff that keeps you alive and let them fend for themselves" route, so they get a much better appreciation of just what it is you bring to the table. Or, if you're feeling vindictive, there's the "buff the enemies and debuff your companions" thing that's been suggested.

[The Boz]

I agree, these players and the DM seem to be quite jerky. Talking to them didn't seem to help, they continued with the insults and the DM refused to compromise.
Time to send some postcards, methinks. Go out of your way to create a devastating alpha strike, try to overload on AoE abilities so they're forced to stay away from combat, and just generally give them a nice fireworks display. Then say "OMG, you guys are totally right! I should have been playing like this all the time!"

[Mnemnosyne]

You're a wizard/incantatrix alongside a paladin and a weird class mix that doesn't sound too effective. Buy a few additional spells and ask them if they want you to solo the rest of the game while they sit back and watch.

Really, pick up some conjurations or something, and now you'll have your own little army to use your buffs on. They can't 'let you die', because if you do it right, they don't meaningfully contribute to the battle in any way. Basically, your character can rightfully get fed up with all the nonsense, walk away from the rest of the group, and still win on his own.

Alternately, just throw down indiscriminate AOE and kill them all, then summon your own minions to handle the situation. Or switch sides. Team up with the bad guy because your teammates are jerks and they pushed you to it.

[Icewraith]

Just keep doing what you're doing, make sure that your contributions are actually being used.

Try greater mighty wallop (chained is better if you can get a metamagic rod or burn some ICX abilities for chained persisted). Melee players love rolling bigger damage dice.

Make sure they're remembering the free attack at highest BAB you're giving them with haste.

Also, if you have streamlined house rules for grapple or can just get the checks out fast, try Evard's Black Tentacles instead of Solid Fog. When you get higher level spells, upgrade to acid/freezing fog, and drop a vortex of teeth in it.

Glitterdust if you're not already and make sure your DM is rolling the miss chances. Charm or dominate something big and stupid. Without a Rogue they won't appreciate Grease nearly as much.

Your party members really shouldn't be giving you crap if you're giving them reach and free attacks though.

Alternatively: Explosive Runes EVERYTHING.

[Tim Proctor]

In the campaign I'm running (rotating DM) I made a tank with combat expertise, allied defense, goad, and lots of tripping, disarming, etc. as well as a lot of tactical knowledge, etc. Two people in the group kept saying that he didn't do anything so what I did is had him replaced with a Doppleganger version of him and had him turn sides during a fight. So the enemies started getting +10 AC and they effectively lost 10 AC, their fighter couldn't swing at the boss and the rogue kept being knocked prone. They realized that it was not a good thing, and quickly. I even went one step further than that because the tank was a formation fighter military type I had the enemy copy the guy and let me tell you when you have 4 people in formation fighting and each is getting an additional +30 AC from their allies people realize why the Spartans kicked so much arse.

Sure they hit the guys on a natural 20, but they were getting hit on 15+, yeah they hit the bad guys for 2d6+30 or something crazy but every time the other guys hit for 1d8+3 they'd be knocked prone provoking AoO, and the other guys were goaded while the BBEG Vampire was beating the crap out of the others. The group learned that having people buff and aide others is really the most OP thing someone can do.

Your fellow players just need to realize that if they weren't such idiots and got some things that helped out their team that the team would be stronger. Right now it sounds like a bunch of individual players that are fighting for the same cause but not fighting together.

I would just go total OP caster, get a Wand of Warning and Improved Initiative and insta-blast everything a that came through and then demand that you get 100% of the XP because your other teammates didn't even get an action and contributed to the battle 0%.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Alternately, retrain to pick up Snowcasting, Flash Frost, Energy Substitution, Born of the Three Thunders, Explosive Spell and/or Fell Drain/Fell Animate. Apply in order to Locate City. Kill everyone within 10 miles/caster level. Raise them as your choice of wights or zombies if that's your thing.

[Lisselys]

Ok guys well.. Wow.
I honestly didn't expect so many answers :smallredface:
I read all of your comments and I'd really like to answer all of you personally but I guess it's going to be a mess, therefore I'll try to put a few points to answer everybody

1) Retraining in every form: Well, I'd just ask to change my character. I spent a lot of time characterizing it, and changing it without an IC reason sounds.. Meh?

2) Changing Spells: I'll try that. More Save or Die/Summons rather than buff/debuff, they will be visible. I'll try to point out that and who knows. Maybe when the paladin will roll his 2 attacks at 2d6 instead of 3 at 3d6 with me pointing it out will finally stop.

3) Going against the party: No way. I think I didn't explain myself well if someone is still suggesting this. I really thank you for the support but they aren't really mean or evil, they just point out, at EVERY SESSION, how they destroy every enemy while I'm not as strong as them.


I'll let you know (If you're interested obviously :smalltongue: ) this Sunday how the things will work...

Any suggestions about my spell selection? I can work my way to have some spells on the spellbook if I don't have them.
My usual spell selection consists of

Lvl0: Mage Hand, Touch of fatigue, detect magic (2)
Lvl1: lesser acid orb (2), Mage armor, Magic Missile, Ray of enfeeblement, Enlarge person
Lvl2: Acid Arrow, FellDrain Acid Splash (2), Scorching ray, Mirror Image, Ghoul Touch
Lvl3: ManyJaws, Haste, Rage, Fireball, SteelBand
Lvl4: Enervation, Black tentacles, Lower Spell Resistance
Lvl5: Spiritwall, Telekinesis, CloudKill

I cast Mage armor in the morning extending it

My actions usually follows this priority:
Buff-->Debuff---> Damage

The dungeon right now is full of statues/Monsters with lots of immunities so I'm avoiding debuffs 'cause they've got almost no effect.
I usually add to the persistent effects some metamagic. Right now I have: Extend, Split, Empower, Fell Drain, Reach Spell and Chain.

[Gavinfoxx]

What happens in round 1 of combat?
Round 2 of combat?
Round 3?

IE, what is your character doing each round?

Does he ever get the drop on any enemies?

Are you ambushed all the time? If so, why aren't you the ones doing the ambushing?

[Lisselys]

What happens in round 1 of combat?
Round 2 of combat?
Round 3?

IE, what is your character doing each round?

Does he ever get the drop on any enemies?

Are you ambushed all the time? If so, why aren't you the ones doing the ambushing?

Usually it goes like this

Round 1) I Haste, and retreat finding a nice spot, they attack, the cleric launches some attack spell
Round 2) If there's a lot of enemies I solid Fog the majority away, while only a pair of them is fought by the party. With fewer Enemies I Enervate/Ray of Enfeeble/SteelBand them, depending on the situation. The cleric starts with another random attack spell
Round 3) Depending on the surrounding I either start attacking (Fireball, mostly acid thanks to the rod, or Scorching Ray, as before) or continue buffing debuffing. They continue attacking, the cleric starts healing
Round 3)

[Shpadoinkle]

Okay, how about this: Talk to your DM and see if you can get him to go along with a "what if" scenario. He sends the party up against a group of (level appropriate) monsters they've already fought. Except, this time you'll be on the monster's side. The other players should quickly get an appreciation for how much Enervation cripples a character and how much of a boon Haste really is.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Okay, we've got two invisible posts. Let's see if this fixes it.

[Randomguy]

You don't need to change up your build at all. You've already got almost the best possible one for blasting, if you were so inclined. At worst, you might want to trade out a few feats to be better at blasting, but it would be easier to just get a few new spells.

Try picking up Vortex of Teeth as one of your spells known. Next encounter, tell them to stay back, cast solid fog or Black tentacles, and follow it up with vortex of teeth. Maybe recast it using a pearl of power the next round. Feel free to add metamagic to it. Maybe put up a few defences if you want, or ready actions to counterspell if you feel like it.
This could also possibly work with extended Manyjaws.

Alternatively, try this: Open door, observe enemies. Cast a quickened, chained hold portal (you may need a metamagic rod) on every entrance except this one (or maybe just a quickened one if there's only one other entrance). Cast cloudkill. Close door.

[Ingus]

First of all, you're doing it right
In other words, wizards are good for buff/debuff/BC, so you're in the right path.

My suggestion to be more effective is to cast Battlefield Control spells before haste, at first round of combat. Then, instead of buffing them, debuff enemy or use block + AoE spells combos (black tentacles + fireball, solid fog + cloudkill and so on).

In other words, you may be even more effective in transforming enemies lives in a world of suckitude and then, when in control, shot them with plain, non magical darts. Your fellows may mock you, but if the enemy can't attack (can't do anything useful, if you do it good), they quickly realize that you win the battles for them (or, if they don't, you may still point it out).

What it seems you lack is a couple of wands or a good staff to ordinary spells to cast against mooks and a couple of higher level scrolls to use when confronting a BBEG (and trying to one-shoot him).

[Metahuman1]

Do something deliberately suicidal and kill your current character. Or just have him retire.



Now, join the party as a Druid who's optimized his Wildshape and self buffs to the limit, with some long lasting constant damage spells as a nifty add on.

Proceed to do what there doing way better then they are and give 0 buffs or heals to them. After a few sessions, tell them you can either keep this up or go back to what you were doing, there call.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Honestly? Consider quitting. It doesn't seem like the game is that much fun. Move to a different group, one that's a bit less interested in imposing their playstyle on you.

[Mirakk]

Okay, this is a fairly common problem with wizards in groups that have no idea how to enjoy a roleplaying game and just want to roll dice and punch monsters into a pile of goo to loot. Here are a few insights...

1. You can try the reasonable approach and explain that it's your character concept. This works only if they're willing to listen to you, so I suggest it as step one. Tell them you're playing a very powerful character and are attempting to tone it down a bit so the game remains fun for them. I once played an incantatrix myself, and refused to take any offensive spells that weren't mostly for utility (Like Disc of Concordant Opposition). I was still obnoxiously powerful even without using those spells, and managed to gain the ire of my comrades even so. Putting that class in the hands of someone who knows their spells is astoundingly effective.



2. Knowing that they only care about combat, and not the dramatic or innovative.. or the fact that you're playing a character concept, you need to beat them at their own game. As an incantatrix you're more than capable of doing this.

The next time you're in town, get some offensive scrolls and scribe them. Then when you see a monster you need to lay down a maximized scorching ray or maximized fireball and totally steal their thunder. If you don't have maximize, you can try getting a metamagic wand grip, or just use the vanilla versions of the spell. You'll be blasting enemies down in 1-2 rounds while they try to position themselves for combat. Do that for a couple sessions, and they'll surely get frustrated with feeling useless and be glad when you tone it down.


3. If that doesn't work, troll them. Try using spells like Cloudkill whenever possible. Or shape a silence spell into a cone or emanation that's including the healer in the guise of stopping your foes from using spells or scrolls (Only do this if these conditions exist). Do this only if you're ready to leave the group under less than pleasant circumstances.

3B. Hey, why not take a vow of pacifism? :smallbiggrin:

[Bloodgruve]

3B. Hey, why not take a vow of pacifism?

^ I like this one the best.

Its your character, play it the way you want.

Blood~

[Slipperychicken]

You have not been tracking your Damage and Healing correctly. Don't forget your Utility either.

Damage
Whenever you Enervate someone to death, or Save-or-Lose them, you might as well have dealt its full hp in damage, since you took it out of the fight entirely. This is part of your damage. Every time someone uses an extra attack from Haste, that's your damage. Every time your buffs make the difference between hitting or missing, via AC or Miss Chances or whatever, that's also your damage (without you, it wouldn't have happened, after all. You can count it as half if your group gets pissy). Count the amount of damage which your buffs add to individual attacks. If they're Enlarged and hit with an AoO, that's your damage.

Healing or Damage-Prevention
Every time your buffs/debuffs mean that the enemy would otherwise have hit an ally, that's damage you "healed". Whenever you make someone lose an action, or be otherwise unable to make one or more attacks, have the DM roll the attacks and damage as though it was acting normally, and count that as "damage healed".

Utility
Record every non-combat thing you've done for the group. Identifys, damage prevented through Detect Magic, Flights, Teleportation, etc. This should quickly become an impressive list.



If you decide to rebuild your character, give him the feat Uncanny Forethought, and become the ultimate toolbox. Int-mod spontaneous castings/day makes you very very very versatile. Same goes for the Spontaneous Divination ACF (trades out 5th level Wizard bonus feat, lets you cast Divinations spontaneously).

[Wyntonian]

I heartily recommend you pat yourself on the back for being the kind of Wizard everyone should want to play with. You're doing everything more or less right, and your group doesn't know the hole in their collective chests that you prevent from one in the ground.

I'd personally go petty, invisibly running away next combat and maybe "accidentally" putting an AOE debuff where it hurts them. I also advocate that you take the high road, but it's up to you :smallwink:.

[navar100]

In the next fight, don't buff them or debuff the enemies. Protect yourself with invisibility or something, force the DM to fudge horribly to keep them alive. Then smugly point out how much easier the fight would have been if you had been contributing as you usually do.

This. Talk to your DM beforehand that you want to show your effective contribution by example. The DM is in on it, and the combat won't count, i.e. if there's a TPK or only one PC drops, it didn't really happen. Then do the combat again, everyone at full hit points, spell slots, potions used, and this time play as you normally do and show how the combat is a lot easier.

[weenie]

Start using self-only buffs. Polymorph into a treant and be better at melee than the other two players. Tell the DM to up the CR of encounters because they are too easy for you and soon they'll be begging for you to buff them.

[Esgath]

Haste would be good to use, and if you really want them drooling for buffs, get Polymorph (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=519).
Also, if you want to be super, then take Persistent Spell, get your spellcraft right up the wazoo and most of your buffs last the whole day.

If you want to melee yourself, then persist wraithstrike(SpC) and draconic polymorph (draconomicon), throw in greater mighty wallop (races of the dragon) for good measure. Get greater magic armor and some other defense spells on you and you are a better melee than any of them, plus you still can cast spells.

[Tvtyrant]

I think the polymorph-on-self with persisted buffs would be good. You really only need a few low level buffs, then cast polymorph at the beginning of combat and crush the enemy.

[2xMachina]

Do direct damage next time. Poorly. Show how bad an idea it is to push the God wizard to do something else.

Then switch to self-buffing and own 1/2 the encounter after, and then sit back tell them to mop up. It'll be easy right? Since 1 player did 50% of the work, 3 should easily handle it. Laugh when they have a hard time.

[Tyndmyr]

Honestly? Consider quitting. It doesn't seem like the game is that much fun. Move to a different group, one that's a bit less interested in imposing their playstyle on you.

This seems...excessive for this situation. It seems like some friendly ribbing, and so on.

The better solution is to rib them back. Yknow, like "well, you may be able to do damage, but I can find three chumps to do damage for me!" If one of them gets a bit too silly with his damage insults, IC, you can refuse to buff him until he apologizes. I find the people who still have buffs definitely outperform the people without, and this tends to fix things in short order.

Long story short, if this is the only problem you have with this game, it's not at all worth leaving over, or doing some big revenge thing...just banter/poke back.

[Garwain]

I can't believe that the melee characters do not appreciate the buffs/debuffs you are giving. And how can they only judge your character on direct damage? You are clearly playing with some I-only-care-for-braking-faces jerks, which is way below your standards.

Summon an ally, buff it up the wazzoo and laugh at them that your summon is stronger than the are. Do to them what they do to you.

[prufock]

It sounds like this mocking is both in-character AND out-of-character.

If it was in-character only, I would say "do what your character would do." Is he independent-minded, doing what he feels is best, or is he the type to try to fit in? Does he normally rock the boat, is he normally spiteful or vindictive, is he a brown-noser?

OOC stuff is harder to handle, especially when talking to them doesn't help. This is why people get vindictive about it, and to be fair, while a jerk move, it's kind of justified. They want you to do mucho damage; you are a wizard, you can do that. They boast about all the damage they do; you are a wizard, you can make them do less damage by not buffing them. They brag about not getting hurt by the enemies; you are a wizard, stop using battlefield control. You are a wizard, you can stop your party from doing ANY damage. You are a wizard. You are a wizard.

Heck, single-handedly take out the encounter, then turn and say "Oh, you guys are still here? I thought you'd left or fallen asleep or something."

[Sudain]

Why are they making fun of you? First because you are doing good control, and then because you are doing good damage(what they said they wanted)? We are missing something here.

Have you let them know this bothers you? If so, what was their response?

[GreenSerpent]

Heck, single-handedly take out the encounter, then turn and say "Oh, you guys are still here? I thought you'd left or fallen asleep or something."

And then make the point that as you did all the work and they did none, you should then get all the XP from the encounter.

[huttj509]

This seems...excessive for this situation. It seems like some friendly ribbing, and so on.


The line between friendly ribbing and mean-spirited mocking can be rather thin, and vary in position depending on the person receiving, and greatly on the person giving, and prior relationship between the two.

If I'm among some friends I've known for over a decade, I'll probably say something stupid/out-of-line at some point. They know me well enough to know that 99% of the time I really didn't mean to offend. Similar things in the other direction. We can (and have) commented on 'uselessness' in various games, knowing that we're referring to that character, or situation, or die roll bad luck ("a miss is 1 in 6, how do you miss every roll?"), as opposed to general capabilities. For us, a comment about "well, that was the summoned creature doing that, not you" would be taken (and given) as tongue-in-cheek.

If I were with a new group, or any new people, for example, no way would I make a comment like that without more knowledge of them.

I've also encountered people who honestly do seem to have the word "jackass" branded on their soul.

[Rubik]

Okay, how about this: Talk to your DM and see if you can get him to go along with a "what if" scenario. He sends the party up against a group of (level appropriate) monsters they've already fought. Except, this time you'll be on the monster's side. The other players should quickly get an appreciation for how much Enervation cripples a character and how much of a boon Haste really is.This is exactly what I was going to suggest. Make sure you do the same kinds of things as you would normally do -- even if they aren't exactly the same.

Even better, rerun an encounter that way right after you finish the first time. That way it'll be even clearer how much you influenced the fight.

[Novawurmson]

I'd just like to say, the melee characters in the group I DM usually start the battle by begging the arcane support for Haste. This entire concept seems alien to me.

[nightwyrm]

I'd just like to say, the melee characters in the group I DM usually start the battle by begging the arcane support for Haste. This entire concept seems alien to me.

Yeah, I gotta say this thread boggles the mind. Melees who object that the wizards doesn't win the encounter by himself? Do they want to be just spectators?

[Sipex]

Question: Does the group know that their chiding makes you feel bad?

[eggs]

I'm honestly trying, but I can't understand the problem.

If it's dealing damage, deal damage.

If it's the other players saying your character didn't deal damage, don't take that as some bizarre sort of personal attack.

If it is some bizarre form of personal attack and that bothers you, don't hang out with people who make bizarre sorts of personal attacks that bother you.

[Ravenica]

I'm of the mind that if they want a supernova, give them a supernova, one in which they are caught within the splash of and make sure the save is ridiculously high :smallamused:

[lsfreak]

Go full-out crazy on the debuffs instead. Dominate entire encounters by yourself. Stinking clouds, webs, split ray enervations targeting a single person, dominate person. Give them something more visible to deal with, as opposed to "merely" taking a few enemies out of the fight to deal with later. And don't give them haste.

Next level you get even more. Fel Drain Freezing Fog is nasty. Fleshshiver is as well. And if they want blasts, Split Ray Disintegrate against a caster or rogue-type.

[BRC]

Yeah, I gotta say this thread boggles the mind. Melees who object that the wizards doesn't win the encounter by himself? Do they want to be just spectators?
More like Melees who are measuring effectiveness in combat by damage dealt and are therefore thinking the Wizard isn't pulling his own weight, ignoring the tactical benefits of things like Solid Fog, or the power of spells like Haste and Ennervation.
Step 1: Write up a new spell list, titled "The Hurt List", full of blasty spells and SoD's. Get some people on this forum to help you build it.
Step 2: When the session starts, say "Alright guys listen, I enjoy buffing and doing crowd control, I think that's the best way to play a wizard, and it's how I want to play. BUT, if you insist, I can unleash...The Hurt List".
Step 3: They will likely insist.
Step 4: Unleash the Hurt List. Blow enemies up before they have a chance to so much as draw their swords. Rain fire upon your foes while leaving your allies to their own devices. No more nifty Solid Fogs, no more haste spells keeping them going. Go showy with it, rub it into their faces what power a Wizard can hold when they put their mind to it. As a group you'll be less effective then normal, but you personally will be swamping their standards for success.
Step 5: Return to your normal spell list.

[Lisselys]

I read everything, and I'll answer everyone, I swear. As I said I just thougt this thread would have gone ignored so.. Thanks everybody!
As for the "The Hurt List", what would you suggest?

[Telok]

You can abuse Black Tentacles. Combined with Grease, Stinking Cloud, and Flaming Sphere you ought to be able to stop the vast majority of enemies. A single reserve feat and/or the Knowledge Devotion feat will take care of the rest.

The only issues are that your allies won't be able to fight anything that you engage with these spells and you won't have extra spells to boost those allies. But if letting them flounder and weep for a fight or two can fix your problem then the tactic is worth considering.

I do suggest keeping an Invisibility handy too. Scroll, potion, or spell, it's a very useful thing in emergencies.

[Randomguy]

Vortex of teeth, like I mentioned earlier, would go great on the hurt list. Ball lightning and Defenestrating Sphere are also more powerful versions of flaming sphere, but they're higher level. Blis
Really, any damage over time spell, when paired with some good battlefield control, would be awesome.

For some not damage over time damage dealing, there's Orb of X, which as a no save, no SR, just take damage spell, with an extra debuff if they fail the save. Although if the enemy doesn't have spell resistance, you could just hit them with an Empowered or Split rayed Scorching Ray for more damage (although the other orb spells offer different damage types).
Since you're in a dungeon with constructs, there's also Ray of Deanimation, which is an anti-construct beam (untyped damage, no save, no SR).


As I said I just thougt this thread would have gone ignored so..
FYI: I don't think a "my tier 1 caster isn't being appreciated" thread has ever been ignored on these forums. :smalltongue:

[rweird]

Out of curiosity, how do you have a level 9 cohort while only being level 9 yourself?

[maysarahs]

I would really like to reiterate that if their problem is that they don't think you can pull your own weight with your current spells, the solution isn't "I'LL SHOW YOU HOW TO PULL EVERYONES WEIGHT :smallamused:" and then use a different set of spells to show them how meaningless they are as party members. It is to show that you are in fact not only pulling your own weight, but making the whole parties ability to pull any weight of equal CR at all possible. Using your current spell choices. Because that is what you do.

The problem with "show them what a blaster does" is that it doesn't address the problem that your current spells are what you want to show them is your preferred method of playing. If you optimized your blastyness, and that is indeed what they liked, they'll just give you a harder time for wanting to play how you want to play (in my opinion the best way to play a wizard. You literally define what the party can and cannot do, just in a more subtle way than how much HP you can take off a creature). I think the most sensible case is that they'll be awed, and ask you to tone it down, but "keep doing that". At which point you get into some of the most suboptimal choices a wizard can make. Plus you won't have fun. (this is important)

Ultimately, you need to make this about your fun. Tell them that the way you want to play is fun for you, AND in good nature, simply show them that aside from your own weight, you help them pull theirs. It doesn't make playing with them fun for you when they josh you about your choice not to deal damage. Most people (that one would want to be friends with) will take this to heart and realize it makes them a jerk to deride your presence at the table. Not to undermine anyones advice, but I don't think any option that ends with you smirking is the solution here.

I might edit this post if anything else needs saying.

[Endarire]

My problem is that your group seems overly antagonistic and not willing to plainly state their expectations, nor listen to yours. Why play with them, if they are meant to be your friends and seemingly offend you so?

[Psyren]

If you don't WANT to blast, you shouldn't have to. Tell your group to let you play the way you want to play. If they refuse to do so, vote with your feet.