Re: [3.5] Druids, Sacred Vows, and Sentinel of Bharrai (PrC)

[panaikhan]

OK, I'm trying to build a Druid as a possible DMPC to pad out a small party.

My Initial thoughts are a VoP Druid, but I can be persuaded otherwise.
I am torn between a standard (exalted) druid, building towards Lion of Talisid, and a Shapeshifter druid (PHB2).
Obviously shapeshifter invalidates entry to LoT, so I need to figure out two things:
1) if a Shapeshifter build can out-perform a Wild Shape / Companion build
2) if the above is feasible, if there is a good PrC to stack on top of Shapeshifter.

I have limited books available - PHB, PHB2, Exalted Deeds, Races of..., Planar Handbook and Expanded Psionics, though I am not adverse to buying one well-argued book if convinced (and I can still find it).

[HunterOfJello]

If you have to make a DMPC, which I highly reccomend against, then you should go the shapeshifting route. It is weaker than the animal companion + wildshape route, but far superior in that it simplifies the character and reduces the druid's power level down to a more appropriate level.

[Gavinfoxx]

I would not use any sacred vows at all. Don't be exalted at all. Don't be good if you can help it. You want to weaken your character and also not disrupt the party cohesion by being exalted or taking vows.

Take as many of these variants as you can manage, to intentionally weaken the character:

Shapeshift Variant (Player's Handbook II)
Deadly Hunter Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Druidic Avenger Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Spontaneous Divine Caster Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Spontaneous Affliction Variant (Exemplars of Evil)
Spontaneous Rejuvenation (Player's Handbook II)

And only choose spells which don't especially shine overly much, and which allow the party to shine and do useful stuff primarily. Be a support character, but not so strong as to obsolete the strengths of the party.

[Hecuba]

I would not use any sacred vows at all. Don't be exalted at all. Don't be good if you can help it. You want to weaken your character and also not disrupt the party cohesion by being exalted or taking vows.

That depends, in my mind, on how long the DMPC will be around. If we're looking at a DMPC that will be around for the entire setting, then I would heavily reccomend against it.

If the character is only going to be around for a quest or two, even an exalted DMPC can work. For example, you could escort the Sainted Druid to broker peace between two parties. Just make sure to give the spotlight to the Players, and not to your PC.

[panaikhan]

I was contemplating a VoP Shapeshifter, for several reasons.
Shapeshifter simplifies the character (no action abuse, fewer options to remember)
VoP removes the 'treasure' problem (the character doesn't want any) and it is supposed, if I read these boards right, to nerf the character's power further.

The character is NOT supposed to overshadow the party, it is there to stop them being so squishy. The others don't like playing healers much. I'd already decided on spontaneous rejuvenation, and that is likely to be the main use of his 'spell slots'.

Two more questions - can the Druid sacrifice spells for the healing aura while shapeshifted, and if not, would the Natural Spell feat work with shapeshifting?

[Gavinfoxx]

VoP characters need a full share of the loot. Reread the feat. The point is they get and donate it.

Natural Spell will not work with the Shapeshift variant.

Read the healing handbook, the one that says why you don't need a dedicated healer...

[panaikhan]

VoP characters need a full share of the loot. Reread the feat. The point is they get and donate it.
OK, when was the last time the party shared their loot with an NPC, even one built using PC rules? Even so, in our group magical items are shared out with the money, using their 'GP sale value', so worst-case, the Druid will be donating money or magic nobody can use.

Natural Spell will not work with the Shapeshift variant.
You answered the second part of the question, but not the first.

[Gavinfoxx]

I believe the Shapeshift variant prevents you from casting spells entirely...

hmm. I think they are meant to work together, to let the Druid heal a little while shapeshifted...

[eggs]

There's an argument for Shapeshift at very high levels, once spells like Animal Shapes and Shapechange effectively reproduce Wildshape. But even then, the animal companion will usually outweight a couple enhancement bonuses.

Spontaneous Rejuvenation is weird. Since it doesn't involve casting a spell, nothing should stop it from working with Shapeshift. But it's odd that it wouldn't have a Su or SLA tag if it's an independent ability.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well eggs, the point is to power down the character...

[TrueDiviner]

I was contemplating a VoP Shapeshifter, for several reasons.
Shapeshifter simplifies the character (no action abuse, fewer options to remember)
VoP removes the 'treasure' problem (the character doesn't want any) and it is supposed, if I read these boards right, to nerf the character's power further.



I don't think that VoP is necessary. If you're working with a Druid/Shapeshifter, you could just roleplay the character so that they aren't interested in treasure (maybe the DMPC is proud of being self-sufficient, or just doesn't care for material things unless they're particularly useful). It is true that VoP nerfs a character in later levels (imo, it makes them more powerful in the early game but this soon fades as other PCs gain wealth and items) but there are better ways to nerf a DMPC.

Just don't nerf the DMPC too much - they aren't supposed to overpower the party, but if they are too weak and can't contribute to the fight, then the DMPC can become an annoyance to the party. If the DMPC isn't contributing to the fight effectively (by at least buffing or tanking damage, etc) then this stretches out combat unnecessarily.

[panaikhan]

The Druid will be adding a 4th member to a 3-person team, so none of the characters can 'scrimp' on towing their weight. The idea of a VoP Shapeshifter with spontaneous rejuvenation fits in with my concept of a party healer in the thick of the fighting with the rest, and lifts the burdon of HP Battery from the players somewhat.

But, back to the build. If I'm going Shapeshifter, Lion PrC is off the table, so I'm looking at the Bear PrC. Any thoughts?

(Just to add - I am planning the build out to L20, though in all likelyhood the campaign will start at L1)

[panaikhan]

Looking for a little help, getting into Sentinel of Bharrai as early as possible.
Ideal solution would be to add Knowledge: Arcana to the Druid skill list, as I can manage the other requirements.

[Hecuba]

Looking for a little help, getting into Sentinel of Bharrai as early as possible.
Ideal solution would be to add Knowledge: Arcana to the Druid skill list, as I can manage the other requirements.

Feats
Knowledge Devotion (complete champion)
Apprentice (DMG 2)
Education (Eberron camp. Set.)
[Some elf variant of skill focus from a different one of the eberron books]

Others
Gain the knowledge domain