Need Help Balancing a Player Race

[Lord Lemming]

First post on this site.

Me and a few friends have very recently taken up D&D. Being the DM, I feel the need to add things to my world that are not in the 4th Edition Essentials books we already have. To that end, I've written up a list of stats for a player race that I call 'Ethereals.' The main point of the Ethereals is that they are counterparts to the Tieflings, only angelic instead of demonic. As such, instead of having horns and a tail, they have fully-functional wings.

I've already come up with a fairly balanced selection of stats, as well as limitations on the wing's capabilities, mainly that you can't take off from flat ground if you are carrying more than 5 x your strength, and can't fly period if you exceed 10 x your strength.

The problem is that, as a more experienced D&D player pointed out, flight, particularly at low levels, is a huge bonus. I could try to counter that bonus by taking away bonuses that other races take for granted, but that would make this race fairly useless in a fight. Flight, while probably useful in battle, is primarily for roleplaying.

So, the question is, what kind of penalty do I put on this race to balance out the presence of wings, while not making them useless otherwise? Any other comments or critiques are welcome (noobie DM here!)

[Kurald Galain]

Personally I don't see flying characters as a problem, and I can name you numerous other RPGs where a level-1 character can fly out of the box without being unbalanced. So unless your group is heavily into optimizing I wouldn't worry about it.

That said, by 4E logic, flying is considered extremely overpowered. Existing solutions within 4E are (1) you can fly for one move action per encounter; (2) you can fly, but not higher than one square; (3) you can fly, but only five minutes per day and you cannot attack while doing so; or (4) you can fly at level 16 but not earlier. Incidentally your limitations on weight are all too easily avoided by any character that wants to.

Note also that in 4E, the tieflings already have a counterpart in the Deva from PHB2.

[Firebug]

Perhaps the wings aren't that powerful (yet, in heroic tier) so perhaps just representing them as an encounter power for like 'fly your speed' as a move action might suffice (ie refluffing Eladrin a bit for fly instead of teleport, but a longer distance, speed vs 5)?
Or perhaps a stance for fly half speed, but most stances are dailies so that might not be too attractive.
Maybe Minor action: Until the End of your Next Turn you can Fly your Speed as a move action (not actually giving you a flight speed) with an altitude limit?

Out of combat would favor the stance or Minor action UEoNext Turn.

Alternatively, if you want to stay completely in the current rules: they are just angel blooded, so go with whichever base race you want to be, but grab a theme like Windlord, or perhaps refluff Wind/Water Soul Genasi?

If its mobility you want to represent, perhaps MC assassin with Ghost of the Rooftops level 6 utility might be good enough? I could really see this one if you were going for something like the Ethreals from Chronicles of Riddick.

Essentially I vote for what is already in the rules, since that is supposed to be balanced already.

[NecroRebel]

Note also that in 4E, the tieflings already have a counterpart in the Deva from PHB2.

Devas are more the counterparts to genasi in my mind, actually; there's not so much a demonic/angelic duality as there is an elemental/astral duality, so the Immortal devas are the counterpart to the Elemental genasi. Also, tieflings are members of a Hell-corrupted bloodline, and the Hells are part of the Astral Sea, so a deva's spirit might logically hail from there anyway.


So, the question is, what kind of penalty do I put on this race to balance out the presence of wings, while not making them useless otherwise? Any other comments or critiques are welcome (noobie DM here!)

Rather than a penalty, I'd suggest you give them an overland flight speed of 10 or so, and an encounter power to fly their speed as a move action. Overland Flight is mostly useless in battle, as using it takes a move action and precludes using any standard, minor, or immediate actions, so that's not overpowering, but they can still fly at-will, and the encounter power to fly without using their Overland Flight speed is then available for combat.

[Kurald Galain]

Or perhaps a stance for fly half speed, but most stances are dailies so that might not be too attractive.
This interferes with the fact that some classes have stance powers they want to use often, and most classes don't have any stance powers.


Essentially I vote for what is already in the rules, since that is supposed to be balanced already.
Emphasis on "supposed". 4E has become less and less balanced over the last two years or so. Just compare e.g a wizard to a binder and you'll see what I mean.

[Firebug]

Emphasis on "supposed". 4E has become less and less balanced over the last two years or so. Just compare e.g a wizard to a binder and you'll see what I mean.

I think that is more the amount of support for each given class rearing its head there.

And possibly the level of Op of the DMs game. I for instance am currently playing an Ensnaring Swordmage at level 11 in one of my IRL games. Arguably the worst defender class|subclass in the game. But he's fine for that level of Op.

[Kurald Galain]

I think that is more the amount of support for each given class rearing its head there.
No, I'm afraid not. Some classes just have ineffective class features and mediocre powers.


I for instance am currently playing an Ensnaring Swordmage at level 11 in one of my IRL games. Arguably the worst defender class|subclass in the game. But he's fine for that level of Op.
Sure, but another defender in the group would likely upstage him without even trying, which is the point. Balance is a broad statement about the game as a whole, not about what is apparent in any individual home game.

[Firebug]

Perhaps, I mean we normally do have 2 defenders (Goliath warden, rolled stats, he rolled well enough that he could be Str/Con while still having a high enough wisdom for Polearm Gamble at 11). But he wasn't there last week, so I soloed the Solo. Literally. Both strikers (no leader at all btw) ended up getting Planeshifted to chase the elite Succubi... so I killed the Solo Demon by myself.

In general, he gets hit pretty much every time. But has more HP then I do. He gets Con-mod temps every time he hits (or gets an OA, because not only is his wisdom 15, but his dex too, so he has a glaive for Heavy Blade Opportunity). And second Wind Optimization. I however get 5-10 temps every time I hit(Booming Blade + Rose King's Shield), and with Lasting Frost, White Lotus Master Riposte, Enter the Crucible and high defenses I had no trouble laying the smack down on that solo.

I am pretty sure my AC is something like 4-5 points higher then the Warden's.
Would the party be more effective if I was a leader instead? Most definately, but we've played these characters since level 1 (we had a leader, but he stopped coming). And I am a little attached. I normally would never touch Lasting Frost... but this character aquired the title of the Winter Knight (Bralani Wintersoul). Any Dresden Fans out there? :P

But back on topic, I'd throw in for Overland Flight especially since you pointed out the option of using it in combat with restrictions. And the encounter move action flight to override the restriction 1/enc.

[Lord Lemming]

Thanks for the advice, guys! It's giving me some perspectives I'd lacked up until now (mainly, perspectives from people who've played more than 5 sessions!)

There's something I'm a little confused about, though. Kurald said that flying is extremely overpowered in combat. How so? The flying rules given in the Essentials Rules Compendium doesn't mention any bonuses or penalties given by flying. Is it just because you can stay out the range of melee fighters?

Kurald also said that the weight restrictions are too easily avoided. As it stands now, those restrictions are just so that the Ethereal can't just, say, fly the entire party over the Impenetrable Castle Gate of Doom and go in through the roof, though the Ethereal himself could do that. For instance, a Knight wearing heavy armor and wielding a heavy shield and weapon would be carrying almost 70 lb right there. With a strength of 16-18, he would be able to fly with 80-90 lbs of gear. Adding basic adventuring gear puts him close to the edge, if not over it. Someone carrying less heavy gear probably has a lower strength score to go with it.

[Ashdate]

There's something I'm a little confused about, though. Kurald said that flying is extremely overpowered in combat. How so? The flying rules given in the Essentials Rules Compendium doesn't mention any bonuses or penalties given by flying. Is it just because you can stay out the range of melee fighters?

He didn't say that he personally thought that flying in combat is overpowered, just that the game design assumes as such.

This comes from the 3e game, where flying ended up being a very powerful defense against a lot of different enemies.

I agree with Kurald that they took the nerf bat a bit too hard to "flying" (and teleporting for that matter). As long as you compensate in your combat design to account for having a party member that can fly all day, you probably don't have to err on the side of caution like 4e normally does. (Ranged attacks seem to be a bit more prevalent in this edition, but I don't have any facts to back that up)

[Kurald Galain]

There's something I'm a little confused about, though. Kurald said that flying is extremely overpowered in combat. How so?
No, I said the 4E design considers it extremely overpowered. Most other RPGs have no problem with it.


Kurald also said that the weight restrictions are too easily avoided. As it stands now, those restrictions are just so that the Ethereal can't just, say, fly the entire party over the Impenetrable Castle Gate of Doom and go in through the roof, though the Ethereal himself could do that.
If your aim is that the etheral cannot carry anyone while flying, then straight up write down that he cannot carry anyone while flying. Otherwise, someone will find a loophole (for instance, it is not generally true that high strength characters tend to carry more equipment).

[Silma]

in 3.5 the counterpart of tieflings are the aarsimar.

Lemme see if I can make a 4e aarsimar.

Stat bonuses:
+2 CHA, +2 WIS
Skill Bonuses: +2 Religion, +2 Diplomacy
Low-light Vision
Speed: 6 squares
Resist 5 necrotic
+1 Will
Proficiency with Longswords, Flails, Heavy Flails, Morningstars
Wizard Cantrip :Light as an at-will power

Encounter Power:
Immediate Interrupt
Trigger: You fail a saving throw
Effect: Add your Charisma Modifier to the saving throw


And maybe you can make a custom Paragon Path for them that allows them to gain wings, similar to the "Sion of Arkhosia" Dragonborn Paragon Path.

[Ashdate]

in 3.5 the counterpart of tieflings are the aarsimar.

Lemme see if I can make a 4e aarsimar.

The "Aasimar" that you describe are essentially just a Deva (well, except slightly worse). Unless your players aren't attached to the official Character Builder, I don't see the benefit of creating a "aasimar" when the Deva, as is, can be refluffed to fill that roll.

[Lord Lemming]

No, I said the 4E design considers it extremely overpowered. Most other RPGs have no problem with it.


If your aim is that the etheral cannot carry anyone while flying, then straight up write down that he cannot carry anyone while flying. Otherwise, someone will find a loophole (for instance, it is not generally true that high strength characters tend to carry more equipment).

D'OH! Sorry, I misinterpreted.

Thanks for your input, it's been quite helpful.

[Mystral]

A fly rule I once used:

The character has overland flight 4 (That means, only 4 squares flying per turn, and nothing else). He has an encounter power that lets him turn that fly speed into hover for one turn as a minor action. There may be racial feats that enhance this flying ability (hover for more then one turn, at will power, greater speed)