Quick question about prone / cover and line of sight

[Talakeal]

If a character is prone behind a low wall or similar obstacle, do enemies on the other side of the obstacle have line of sight to them? I can't tell by RAW. From a common sense perspective I would say it blocks LoS, but from a mechanical perspective this is pretty powerful.

If the answer is no to LoS, is there anything stopping said prone character from, during their turn, standing up as a move action, performing a standard action, then falling prone again as a free action, allowing them to act normally every turn but rendering them immune to any return attacks save readied actions? And, if the enemy does declares a readied action the character simply stays prone the whole turn.

[Cespenar]

Seems like this, more or less:



A low obstacle (such as a wall no higher than half your height) provides cover, but only to creatures within 30 feet (6 squares) of it. The attacker can ignore the cover if he’s closer to the obstacle than his target.

Straightforward cover rules. +4 to AC, +2 to Reflex saves, enables Hide. If you want, you can evoke this as well:


In some cases, cover may provide a greater bonus to AC and Reflex saves. In such situations the normal cover bonuses to AC and Reflex saves can be doubled (to +8 and +4, respectively). A creature with this improved cover effectively gains improved evasion against any attack to which the Reflex save bonus applies. Furthermore, improved cover provides a +10 bonus on Hide checks.

[Malak'ai]

What Cespenar said.
The wall would only block LoS in regards to hiding up until the enemies get close enough to notice you.

[Oscredwin]

I was always confused by the first part of the cover rules there.

[Bad guy]
[me]
XXXXXXXX [Wall]

Do I get cover from the wall? No where does it say the wall has to be between me and the target (never played that way or suggested it IRL, just a RAW question).

[Namfuak]

I was always confused by the first part of the cover rules there.

[Bad guy]
[me]
XXXXXXXX [Wall]

Do I get cover from the wall? No where does it say the wall has to be between me and the target (never played that way or suggested it IRL, just a RAW question).

By a strict reading, solid walls would not provide cover, if they are closer to the attacker than the defender. IE (pretend the wall is solid and a hundred feet high):

[Bad guy]
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX [wall]


[Me]

The bad guy can now phase his arrows through the wall at me, because it is closer to him than me and he can thus ignore it.

[Deepbluediver]

By a strict reading, solid walls would not provide cover, if they are closer to the attacker than the defender. IE (pretend the wall is solid and a hundred feet high):

[Bad guy]
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX [wall]


[Me]

The bad guy can now phase his arrows through the wall at me, because it is closer to him than me and he can thus ignore it.

This is innaccurate. The line about ignoring cover if the attacker is closer to the wall is only found attached to the section headed "Low Obstacles and Cover" and describes anything fitting in this category as "no higher than half your height". Your theoretical 100-ft tall wall does not meet this requirement, and would provide complete cover for both characters, even if they could find some way to know the other person is there.

[whibla]

By a strict reading, solid walls would not provide cover, if they are closer to the attacker than the defender. IE (pretend the wall is solid and a hundred feet high):

[Bad guy]
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX [wall]


[Me]

The bad guy can now phase his arrows through the wall at me, because it is closer to him than me and he can thus ignore it.

"A low obstacle (such as a wall no higher than half your height) provides cover, but only to creatures within 30 feet (6 squares) of it. The attacker can ignore the cover if he’s closer to the obstacle than his target."

"Total Cover: If you don’t have line of effect to your target (for instance, if he is completely behind a high wall), he is considered to have total cover from you. You can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover."

Are you you sure yours was a strict reading? :smallwink:

[Deepbluediver]

"A low obstacle (such as a wall no higher than half your height) provides cover, but only to creatures within 30 feet (6 squares) of it. The attacker can ignore the cover if he’s closer to the obstacle than his target."

"Total Cover: If you don’t have line of effect to your target (for instance, if he is completely behind a high wall), he is considered to have total cover from you. You can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover."

Are you you sure yours was a strict reading? :smallwink:

I'm sorry, I must be missing something, because it seems as if the OP (Namfuak) took the line about "ignoring cover" for LOW obstacles and applied it to every other kind of cover mentioned, despite the fact that they are in seperate paragraphs, and the description of HIGH walls specifically calls out that two people on either side cannot attack each other each other.

That's not a strict reading, that's a tortuous mis-interpretation of the information given to come up with the result that makes the least amount of sense.

[Namfuak]

I'm sorry, I must be missing something, because it seems as if the OP (Namfuak) took the line about "ignoring cover" for LOW obstacles and applied it to every other kind of cover mentioned, despite the fact that they are in seperate paragraphs, and the description of HIGH walls specifically calls out that two people on either side cannot attack each other each other.

That's not a strict reading, that's a tortuous mis-interpretation of the information given to come up with the result that makes the least amount of sense.

I'm not the OP, and apparently I should stop posting directly after I wake up.

[Deepbluediver]

I'm not the OP, and apparently I should stop posting directly after I wake up.

I recognize that you are not the author of this thread, but I was replying to Whibla, and I wanted to indicate that I recognized that he was not the original poster of your comment. That's all I meant.

Also, the not-posting when half asleep thing is totally understandable. I've had more than a few of my own instances of commenting on something, then rereading it a few hours laters and going "Oh god I must delete this before some one else sees it." And of course, some one has already quoted me, thereby preserving my priceless gem for all eternity. :smallbiggrin:


Since we've gotten a little off-topic...

@Talakeal
I don't see any reason why this shouldn't work just the way you describe. Smart players make the best use they can of the terrain available, and they should be justly rewarded for it.

@Oscredwin
I'm quoting the first section in the cover section of the SRD:
"When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from your square to the target’s square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn’t adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks."

Since no (straight) line that you can draw between your character and the the bad guy passes through the wall, I don't see any reason why it should grant you cover.

[Talakeal]

I recognize that you are not the author of this thread, but I was replying to Whibla, and I wanted to indicate that I recognized that he was not the original poster of your comment. That's all I meant.

Also, the not-posting when half asleep thing is totally understandable. I've had more than a few of my own instances of commenting on something, then rereading it a few hours laters and going "Oh god I must delete this before some one else sees it." And of course, some one has already quoted me, thereby preserving my priceless gem for all eternity. :smallbiggrin:


Since we've gotten a little off-topic...

@Talakeal
I don't see any reason why this shouldn't work just the way you describe. Smart players make the best use they can of the terrain available, and they should be justly rewarded for it.

@Oscredwin
I'm quoting the first section in the cover section of the SRD:
"When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from your square to the target’s square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn’t adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks."

Since no (straight) line that you can draw between your character and the the bad guy passes through the wall, I don't see any reason why it should grant you cover.

I am not sure if this falls under smart use of terrain rather than blatantly abusing the turn based system. It is basically asking for free "spell on the run" every time there is a vertical obstacle. In real life if someone tried doing this they would be bouncing up and down like a jack in the box and exposed to shots at least half the time, and it only makes you invincible in D&D because it is a turn based game.

I am having trouble finding the solid rules for LoS, does anyone know what page they are on in the PHB / DMG?

The paragraph in the DMG implies that if you can see even a portion of a targets square, rather than the creature itself, you have LoS but they have cover. It does not, however, mention how tall a creatures square is. Is it a flat 5x5 section of ground, a 5x5 cube, a 5x5 column with a height equal to the creature's base, or a 5x5 column as tall as the creature is?

[Psyren]

I am not sure if this falls under smart use of terrain rather than blatantly abusing the turn based system. It is basically asking for free "spell on the run" every time there is a vertical obstacle. In real life if someone tried doing this they would be bouncing up and down like a jack in the box and exposed to shots at least half the time, and it only makes you invincible in D&D because it is a turn based game.

Not invincible - this is precisely the kind of situation they invented readied actions for. "I nail him when he pops up" is perfectly acceptable and even a bugbear would be smart enough to pull it off.

[Talakeal]

Not invincible - this is precisely the kind of situation they invented readied actions for. "I nail him when he pops up" is perfectly acceptable and even a bugbear would be smart enough to pull it off.

Right, but if the monster does ready an action to attack when you pop up, you just stay down and let the rest of the party beat up the monster while he is sitting there twiddling his thumbs waiting for you to pop up round after round.

[Psyren]

Right, but if the monster does ready an action to attack when you pop up, you just stay down and let the rest of the party beat up the monster while he is sitting there twiddling his thumbs waiting for you to pop up round after round.

The DM can always make it broader. "Nail the next person to attack me" is just as fair.

And honestly, if it's only one monster - well, that's one of the inherent weaknesses of sending one foe against a party of adventurers. Either it's tough enough to deal with the odds, or it needs backup - just as you would expect from a realistic situation.

[Talakeal]

The DM can always make it broader. "Nail the next person to attack me" is just as fair.

And honestly, if it's only one monster - well, that's one of the inherent weaknesses of sending one foe against a party of adventurers. Either it's tough enough to deal with the odds, or it needs backup - just as you would expect from a realistic situation.

Well, it works against any number of foes. Any foe who readies an action to attack the prone character is effectively out of the fight, and if they word the readied action more broadly the PC will just find some way to lawyer their way around it.

But as I said, the rules in the DMG state that if you can see any portion of a creature's square you can draw line of sight to that creature with cover, so the only way this works is a creature's square is shorter vertically that it is broad. I can't find any rules that say how tall a creature's square is, but the general consensus seems to be it is a cube, which means that any obstacle tall enough to get full cover behind would also prevent looking out. The prone condition appears to have no effect on LoS in either direction.

[Psyren]

Well, it works against any number of foes. Any foe who readies an action to attack the prone character is effectively out of the fight, and if they word the readied action more broadly the PC will just find some way to lawyer their way around it.

And again, if one of the bugbears is keeping the crouching PC down while the rest engage his fellows, that's how it should be. (Or he can just walk around the cover and pop him in the noggin.) But if it's just one enemy, it should really be something scary like a hydra, wraith or dragon that can switch tactics rather than get stymied by a chest-high wall.



But as I said, the rules in the DMG state that if you can see any portion of a creature's square you can draw line of sight to that creature with cover, so the only way this works is a creature's square is shorter vertically that it is broad. I can't find any rules that say how tall a creature's square is, but the general consensus seems to be it is a cube, which means that any obstacle tall enough to get full cover behind would also prevent looking out. The prone condition appears to have no effect on LoS in either direction.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but cover shouldn't be enough on its own to make a creature effectively invisible. Wouldn't they need to Hide as well?

[Talakeal]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but cover shouldn't be enough on its own to make a creature effectively invisible. Wouldn't they need to Hide as well?

The rules say you cannot target a creature with a spell or ranged attack unless you can draw line of effect to the creature. One of my players is stating that if they are prone behind a low wall or obstacle enemies cannot draw line of effect to their body without passing through the obstacle, thus they are immune to ranged spells and attacks.

[Deepbluediver]

Right, but if the monster does ready an action to attack when you pop up, you just stay down and let the rest of the party beat up the monster while he is sitting there twiddling his thumbs waiting for you to pop up round after round.

I still don't see a problem with this. If you need to stay down to keep it using up readied actions, then the enemy has effectively removed you from the fight. If there are other party members to smack your target from melee range, the creature would have to pick and choose who he wants to attack anyway. One of the best benefits of ranged combat is that you can attack your enemy without him being able to respond in kind. Without that, there doesn't seem to be a lot of incentive to use a longbow from 5 ft. away. :smallcool:



The rules say you cannot target a creature with a spell or ranged attack unless you can draw line of effect to the creature. One of my players is stating that if they are prone behind a low wall or obstacle enemies cannot draw line of effect to their body without passing through the obstacle, thus they are immune to ranged spells and attacks.

There is nothing to stop the enemy from charging at the person hiding if it determines that he is the most dangerous threat, thereby getting close enough to negate cover, or retreating out of range, forcing him to abandon the defensive position to follow it. Also, while the enemy might not be able to target some one directly with ranged attacks or spells, you can still do things like blow up the wall (depending on how sturdy it is) with Fireball, or drop a spell like Darkness on your location to blind you.
Also, again depending no how sturdy the wall is, the GM (you in this case, I guess) might rule that it doesn't block all the damage from directional AOE attacks, such as Shout or Burning Hands.

In addition, if there are other targets NOT hiding behind cover, the enemy might try to position themselves so that the ranged attacker doesn't have a clear shot at them. Here's the section on Soft cover:

Soft Cover
Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Hide check.