Hybriding Essentials with Non-Essentials

[Alan_Pehnereas]

I'm hybriding a Blackguard Paladin with a Ranger (I have my reasons. Please don't tell me to try a different build instead, ha ha), and I am working on the build up to level 5 for now. Here's my question;

Since I'm mixing an essentials class with a non-essentials class, what do I do concerning the level 4 utility that the Blackguard gets? What rules apply to having a utility at level 4? And can I trade it out for a level two Skill Power if I so chose to?

Thanks,
Alan

[Alan_Pehnereas]

Also, I have another question. It concerns Entangling Whip from D 368. The power states the following;

Entangling Whip Feat Power
Your whip is like an extension of you, coiling around your
enemy so you can drag that foe wherever you like.
Daily ✦ Weapon
Standard Action; Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a whip.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Reflex
Hit: 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, the target is
grabbed (until escape) and knocked prone. The target
takes a –5 penalty to escape the grab, and while you
have the target grabbed you can pull it 1 square as a
minor action. While grabbing the target, you cannot
make attacks with the whip. You can sustain the grab
as long as the target is within 2 squares of you.
At 15th level, increase to 3[W] damage.
At 25th level, increase to 4[W] damage.
Miss: The target is grabbed (until escape) and knocked
prone. While you have the target grabbed you can
pull it 1 square as a minor action. While grabbing the
target, you cannot make attacks with the whip. You
can sustain the grab as long as the target is within 2
squares of you.

Now, here's my question - if it says "must be wielding a whip," then does that mean the actual damage comes from the whip? Or could I assume that my character attacked with his Scimitar, but did the actual grabbing of the target with the whip that he's wielding? I do think this is somewhat cheesy, but it doesn't seem outside of the the rules of use, or the guideline with which you could do this attack.

[NecroRebel]

I don't have the rules for hybrid Essentials classes, but the general rule for hybrids is that when you gain a new power you can choose it from either class. As I read it, Essentials classes don't gain powers as the better classes do, instead just gaining new class features as they level that happen to provide bonus powers, so your hybrid Blackguard wouldn't get access to their L4 utility until they next got a utility power at level 6 (at which point they'd be able to choose it as among their options). You can always choose a lower-level power (that you don't already have) whenever you gain a power, so at level 6 you could take a L2 skill utility if you wanted.

Strictly speaking, you just have to be "wielding" a whip to use that power, and AFAIK "wielding" isn't a defined keyword in 4e. The intent is obvious, but you might be able to convince your DM that you don't have to make the attack with the whip; he or she is completely justified in saying no, as the rules are ambiguous.

[Tegu8788]

You get powers in the normal order of the pre-essentials classes. Look at the power you want. On the very top, colored line, you will see the name on the left, and then the group that can use it (race, class, PP) and a level. If you qualify for the power (member of the race, class, PP) and you are of that level or higher, you can choose the power, as long as if you have more than one power of that type (AEDU) one of each has to be from one of each class.

Also, in the future, edit your post instead of double posting. It's the preferred method on these forums.

Edit: Ninja'd

[Alan_Pehnereas]

Thank you both so much! So I have another weird question - since I already have a Blackguard Utility from level 2, I can't get the one from level 4. However, at level 6, I can get a utility from my other class, and thus allowing me to have access to the one at level 4. Does this mean that when I get to level 6, I can then get both utilities?

Also, my apologies about the double-post. I will just use that handy "edit" button from now on.

Tegu; I'll also have you know that my DM and I did a little play-testing with my current Hybrid build. It's working out pretty well so far. :)

[NecroRebel]

Thank you both so much! So I have another weird question - since I already have a Blackguard Utility from level 2, I can't get the one from level 4. However, at level 6, I can get a utility from my other class, and thus allowing me to have access to the one at level 4. Does this mean that when I get to level 6, I can then get both utilities?

No, because you already have a Blackguard utility (the L2 one), so your second utility (that you gain at L6) would have to be from your Ranger side. If your L2 utility was a Ranger power, you could use your L6 utility choice for a utility power from the Blackguard side, but since you already have a L2 BG utility and must have at least 1 utility power from each side of your hybrid as long as you have at least 2 utility powers total, you cannot choose a BG utility at that time.

[Alan_Pehnereas]

Okay. That makes sense. Thank you so much! I suppose it's somewhat moot point as I really don't care about the level 4 BG utility, but it's REALLY good to know as this thing will happen again at level 8.

[Tegu8788]

Glad to hear. I hope it continues to go well.

The idea is, your hybrid is literally half of one class and half of another. In practice, you have to have a least one power of each kind (ADEU) before you can get a second power from each class. So, early one you can pick and choose as you want, but once you are getting your second encounter and second daily, you have to have a balance. Once you get to choose your third encounter or third utility, you can get whatever you want from there on. This is important for retraining, if you want to change a power from one class to another, you have to be sure you already have at least one AEDU power from each class.

[Alan_Pehnereas]

Does that mean if I picked a Ranger utility at 2 instead, I could get the BG utility at 4?

[NecroRebel]

Does that mean if I picked a Ranger utility at 2 instead, I could get the BG utility at 4?

No, you don't get a utility power at level 4. You get a utility power at level 2 and 6. If you took a Ranger utility at level 2, you could take a Blackguard utility at level 6, taking the level 4 BG utility with your L6 utility slot. This would probably be a bad idea, mind, since higher-level powers are more-or-less universally better, but it would be possible.

[Alan_Pehnereas]

Okay. The BG one at 4 sucks. I was just thinking I could get it, have an extra utility, and then just retrain. But I guess not. Thank you!

[Ashdate]

Does that mean if I picked a Ranger utility at 2 instead, I could get the BG utility at 4?

No, you wouldn't get another utility until level 6. You essentially use a non-essentials progression path (i.e. encounter at 1, 3, 7, 13... daily at 1, 5, 9.... utility at 2, 6, 10...) and add abilities as you gain levels. In general, you can gain "lower" level abilities in a higher level slot.

As a note, I tried on the official character builder to add the "Servant of Vice" utility to a hybrid Blackguard, and I couldn't, even at level 6 and with picking a ranger utility power at level 2. That doesn't mean you can't "officially" pick on at that level, but just letting you know that character builder won't allow you to. I'm not familiar enough with Essentials hybrids to know if that is on purpose or not however.

As for your second question, you probably have some valid RAW claim that holding a whip in your off-hand (but attacking with something else in your main hand) would allow you to use this power.

If I was your DM tho, I would smack you for suggesting you can "entangle" an enemy with a weapon that wasn't a whip tho, just because you're holding it in your off-hand. It's clearly not the intent of the power. If your DM rules otherwise tho, go for it.

[Kurald Galain]

If I was your DM tho, I would smack you for suggesting you can "entangle" an enemy with a weapon that wasn't a whip tho, just because you're holding it in your off-hand. It's clearly not the intent of the power. If your DM rules otherwise tho, go for it.

Yeah, this.

The FAQ clarifies that "wield" means that you use this weapon FOR THE ATTACK, not just that you happen to hold it. Technically the FAQ isn't a rules source, but sheesh.

[Alan_Pehnereas]

The point is not that the player would be entangling with a weapon other than the whip. The attack does mention not using the weapon for attacks while the player is grabbed. So it's not too much to assume that if they'd specifically state such, they would also state that the attack must be made with the whip.

However, that info about what's in the FAQ clears that up.

Thank you both!

[Tegu8788]

I just ran across this blurb in my model builds, and this might help out.


Best as a dragonborn for str/cha, dual primary Str/Cha as your stats, remaining points into int and con. Take Throw and Stab from Ranger and Virtuous Strike from Blackguard, or, if you don't want to be a Dragonborn, take Valiant Strike and Power of Skill to use it as an MBA (but take a hit to your damage, lose access to the White Lotus feats, and be down a feat). Throw and Stab your quarry and get your ranger striker feature there, then use its effect to make an MBA against something else, elect to use your Paladin MBA instead, use your Blackguard striker feature there and get the opportunity to stack a Dread Smite on top of it all. Getting combat advantage for the secondary MBA would be a pain, but there's ways and means. Voilá, a weird ranger hybrid who, for once, doesn't trick out twin strike. Using two Striker damage class features on one attack is easier for an Executioner|x, but that's much more boring.
Reliant on two enemies being relatively near to each other (speed+1 squares maximum, for shifting then carrying out the Throw and Stab), kind of screwed against Solos, needs strange weapons (A Drow Long Knife? Dual-Wielding a Rapier and a Dagger?) but it might work. The Arcane MC even opens up the White Lotus Riposte line if you took Power of Arcana for Virtuous Strike.

I don't believe it would work for a thrown chain trick unless it comes back almost instantly. But it would give you hell of a lot of damage. Find a Ranger encounter you like, then get extra Dread Smite's. You're still throwing something, and could use a one handed chain, if it exists.

[Alan_Pehnereas]

Ironically enough, in my odd build I've been working on, I've ditched the Chain for a Long Drow Knife/Scimitar combo, and at around Paragon I'll take "Avalanche Hurler", along with a Lotulis or other DSCS Double Weapon. It's surprisingly looking cool.

Thanks for all that info on some strategy. It'll definitely be helpful, as I'm in the middle of playtest phase now!

EDIT: So far, I've been going step-by-step through the strategy. I really like it. My only problem is that I like throwing things more than once. However, I could just take a few encounter powers for that instead. But I really like that CRAZY damage combo by using one at-will after another. It's CRAZY!

[Tegu8788]

If its an online game I'd love a link, so I can watch your progress. This one's a long shot.

I like long shots.

[Alan_Pehnereas]

What do you mean by "Getting combat advantage for the secondary MBA would be a pain," though. Do you mean if I have combat advantage, I get a second MBA? I am confused. FYI, I also took "Cunning Stalker," which will let me have CA over anything adjacent to me or alone.

My DM has allowed me to have a "Trained Displacer Beast" from the Fey Beast Tamer theme as my Animal Companion. I would've placed my Hybrid Talent elsewhere, but it's part of the character's character to have a pet-guide. With this, he's allowed that I can take the other features from the theme as feats, but no animal-specific companion feats are allowed in exchange. So at level 6, I will take the level 5 feature - anything adjacent to my creature will grant me CA.

But what do you mean about the secondary MBA? I will have a few different ways to get CA on anything I want pretty soon. :)

ALSO; I've opted for both Blessed Weapon and Sign of Vulnerability, as well as my Long Drow Knife being a Sunblade. It's going to be perfect. :D

EDIT: If I miss with Throw and Stab, do I still have the effect of it's power, allowing me to charge?

EDIT 2: A lot of Ranger powers rely on Reflex. Initially, this build was going to be more Str/Dex with flairs of Char. However, if I go for this build, a lot of my ranged abilities go down the drain, since Dex won't be getting much love anymore.

So - is there a feat or something that lets me use Str with any Heavy Thrown weapon instead of Dex? I know that I can for RBA, but I would want to use Str instead of Dex for all of these ranged powers. I would be using a Long Drow Knife for these attacks. Any suggestions?

[Tegu8788]

I'd just take the theme itself, it would work much better if you want a pet. Shaman MC is better than Beastmaster. Plate armor or the Blackguard THP encounter power would be more useful.

The quote is an old quote I found looking for fun hybrids. Not my own. Cunning Stalker should make it easy enough.

Since the effect giving the charge is listed below the hit line, I read it as only occurring if you hit with the throw. The stab is a charge MBA. You can get a pally at-will that you can replace the MBA with. If you have CA on a pally weapon attack and blackguard features you get to add an extra Cha mod's worth of damage. Use the free action encounter Dread Smite to boost that pally MBA.

So, hunters quarry the thrown weapon, then charge with Pally MBA at-will, with CA extra damage and then dread smite. That's a lot of dice, and you still have a move action free. And it looks like both attacks could be aga it's the same target.

That's a killer move. Now, I'm building one. This is looking pretty potent at a very low level. Now I just need to pick a weapon group to exploit.

Edit: As for swapping Str for Dex, I don't know of a way, and I wouldn't count on it. Being able to fight at range and in melee is hard to do. Trying to balance three stats is very hard in 4E. Max Str, then get a good hunk in Dex, and use your racial bonus for Cha, then dump everything else. 18 Str, 12 Con, 16 Dex, 8 Int, 10 Wis, 14 Cha. A workable spread, still gives your breath weapon some teeth. NADs covered as well.

[Alan_Pehnereas]

It could be. Just remember that this build seriously sacrifices Dex, meaning most of your ranged attacks suddenly become void, and I can't find a way around it. I'm really liking just how much damage I can actually do with a single attack. However, I really don't want to sacrifice having many ranged attacks.

Also, my DM is otherwise not allowing themes. This means this, and only this, is my way of having a Displacer Beast. Besides - at level 6, I will be able to have CA against anyone she's next to. Pretty ballin'.

I am aware that RBA's with Heavy Thrown weapons can use Str. That's perfect for this build. For real. But other ranged attacks use Dex - not Str. Is there a way to get around this, and to use ranged attacks with Str, or at least without good Dex?

Edit; You answered my questions with your edit. Ha ha! Nice.

Edit 2:
New Question - If I wanted to do these two attacks to a single person, I'd have to make sure I'm two squares away so that I can charge. Now, I could always just move two squares away before going with Throw and Stab. However, that would provoke an opportunity attack. Any other possibilities?

I'm thinking Boots of Adept charging allows the player to shift back one square away after charging. Then, if it doesn't move, you can always shift again back one square. However, if it moves, this is completely unreliable. So do y'all have any other options?

Edit 3; Heavy Blade Opportunity and Two Weapon Flurry will allow for the user to attack with Virtuous Strike for an OA, and then use Throw and Stab on the same person, which leads back into another Virtuous Strike, but that second VS could be on any enemy.

Edit 3, the sequel; Is there a good MC for this build? I'm thinking it might be interesting to try Multiclass Paragon. Might be interesting, if I pick the right MC.

Edit 3, part 3; Nevermind. I don't want to replace one of these at wills, ha ha.

[Alan_Pehnereas]

IMPORTANT!

This was Errata. :(((
Throw and Stab
Page 33: In the Flavor Text entry, delete “it or.”
Replace the Effect entry with the following text: “You
move up to your speed and make a melee basic attack
against a creature other than the target.” The power
yielded too much damage against a single target.

[Tegu8788]

Still a useful combo. And, of you pick single target ranger powers, you can dump Str and use Dex Ranger for range and Pally Cha in melee. Tricky, but it would make it easier to build.

[Alan_Pehnereas]

Bloody hell - that's true! I think I'm going to look into it. I'll update you as I see new options appearing.

Edit - Throw and Stab still requires Str. Do you have a suggestion for a new attribute array? I'm thinking high Str, and then dumping everything else other than Char and Dex, which is what I'll boost at levels. Yes?

[Tegu8788]

Yes it does, so much for that short cut. The spread I gave you would still be pretty good. It was first level, dragonborn Str/Cha boosts.

[Alan_Pehnereas]

What about making an all Dex and Charisma build, MCing into Bard, and taking the Daring Blade Paragon? All weapon attacks can then use Cha instead of Str! Yes, yes? Until then, only Ranged or Charisma based attacks would be nice, but once you're level 11, this becomes a sexy beast build!

Edit; In my particular build, I could just have my beast attack instead! Ha ha ha...

[Alan_Pehnereas]

This may be something no one really finds important to their builds, but I just found out that the level 4 utility had an errata, and removed that whole "level 4" part. This means you can't take this power as a hybrid, period, as it's a class feature in the form of a power, not an actual utility. This, Ashdate, explains why you couldn't find it in the character builder - it is simply not an option.

Anyway, thought y'all might find that interesting!