The Scry and Die Wizard. Suggested Counters and Tactics?

[Karoht]

So my DM tipped his hand just a bit and informed me that we would be eventually up against some scry and die wizards.

I have only ever heard horror stories as to how effective this strategy actually is.

1-Are we truly as screwed as I think we are?
2-Are there any suggested items and spells we should have handy? Any specific investments we should look into as soon as we are reasonably able to afford them?
3-I'm playing a Paladin, going Crusader at probably level 7, and probably Ruby Knight Vindicator shortly afterwards. Anything I should specifically be aware of?
4-Current party level is 3. How soon can we reasonably expect to see scry and die Wizards, assuming appropriate CR is observed?


We have a pair of summoners (one is having the Eidolon take Power Attack, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, Spirited Charge, with Pounce and as many natural weapon attacks as possible), a monk, and a cleric (I might convince the Cleric to go RKV as well), and myself, a Paladin.
Sources available to us are Pathfinder and 3.5
Open to pretty much any suggestions, even the Joker Bard VS Batman Wizard type suggestions. Though, lets not turn this into a Joker Bard VS Batman Wizard thread.

[JeminiZero]

1-Are we truly as screwed as I think we are?

It depends on what other firepower the Wizard brings along when he teleports in (and how well he's played).

If he teleports by his lonesome, right into the middle of your group, within reach of all the melee warriors... then not so much.

If he comes in within an invisible sphere that conceals himself and his various demon underlings (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135096) who are all flying far overhead and out of reach of your land lubber party, then yeah, you're screwed.


2-Are there any suggested items and spells we should have handy? Any specific investments we should look into as soon as we are reasonably able to afford them?

Detect Scrying lets you know if somebody is peeking on you, but is wizard list only.

Mindblank can hedge out scrying, but is probably too high level for you to access, and is wizard list only.

Anticipate Teleport can delay any incoming teleporters and give you warning (but a wizard worth his salt can just enter the battlefield outside the AT area), and is also wizard list (are you beginning to see a pattern here).

See if you can get Scry Trap (Magic of Eberron 101) a Cleric 5 spell. (In which case you should convince your cleric NOT to lose caster levels).

Also, the items here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851). Flight, freedom of movement, and protection against mind control are probably essential when fighting a caster.


4-Current party level is 3. How soon can we reasonably expect to see scry and die Wizards, assuming appropriate CR is observed?

In theory, Scry and Die requires level 9 wizard who can cast teleport. So 6 levels away (which is usually considered a looonnnngggg time in the games I play, but YMMV).

[Gavinfoxx]

So what Tier 1's or Tier 2's do you have access to in your party then?

Will you tend to be above, below, or at wealth by level?

[Karoht]

@Jemini
So most of my counters are more wizards. Got it :smallwink:


@Gavin
The only Tier 1 in the party really is the Cleric. I have no idea what Tier the Summoners are. Are they Tier 2? I don't know.


@List of Necessary Items
Excellent resource, thank you!

[Gavinfoxx]

A Cleric can get the job done, for sure... if you are at least the same level of the wizard, and know to prepare for it... divinations and planar ally should help... but against a very proactive Wizard, the Cleric is going to have to be very proactive too!

What domains has he chosen?

[Randomguy]

Have at least one person in the party invest heavily in Use Magic Device (possibly you since you should have good charisma), and have the cleric pick up some item creation feats (I'd say Craft Wand and Craft Wondrous item). This lets you make eternal wands. Craft an eternal wand of Anticipate Teleportation and use it every day. Or you could just buy it, if the setting has a Magic Mart. You'll need to get a scroll of the spell for your cleric to be able to craft the item, anyway. An eternal wand of Nondetection or two at high caster level would also probably be worth it.

If you don't mind spending a lot on wands every so often, you can also get a wand of Detect Scrying (have the party chip in for it), although this could be redundant if you've all got nondetection.

Or you could just use Custom Magic Items for the whole set-up.

[Endarire]

Scry & Die requires the scryer to detect you via scrying then get to you then kill you. If you can prevent at least one of these for a round, you have leverage.

So, in short, be a better caster. Maybe there's another way. Talk to your GM.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There's several ways to make scrying on the party... highly annoying.

The mundane way is to have a lining of lead in your clothing, which scrying cannot penetrate. You'd be surprised how much scrying a simple lead foil can stop.

The first, and probably easiest to bypass, is Nondetection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm). It's a brute-force caster level check to bypass. You'll also want to Chain it for it to hit the whole party. Since it's a Touch spell, that also means Reach Spell, which means you'll want some form of metamagic mitigation in effect.

The next one comes from your cleric. Spell Immunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellImmunity.htm) to Scrying will put a serious damper on anyone trying to scry you. Won't be very effective once opponents have access to more powerful forms of divination, though.

Detect Scrying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectScrying.htm) lets you know if anyone is peeking on you.

False Vision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/falseVision.htm) is always lulzworthy to hoist enemies by their own petard.

Of course, if you ever get that far, Mind Blank is flat immunity.

As far as blocking the teleportation effect, there's a couple of ways to do that as well.

From the Spell Compendium, Anticipate Teleport will ruin their day, giving you advance warning and several rounds to prepare something rather unpleasant for the opponents teleporting in.

While expensive, Forbiddance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forbiddance.htm) is guaranteed to block teleportation into an area. It's good to have around your main base. If you are worried about being dispelled, there's a trick involving the feat Divine Spellpower to boost CL to the point where it's simply not going to be possible for any non-epic threat to bypass.

Dimension Lock is effective, but also hampers your movement, and is a higher level spell.

[Jerthanis]

The easiest counter is to use magic to counter it, but that isn't an option for every party. If you don't, consider enacting the following:

Don't allow yourselves to become vulnerable or weak; heal quickly after each fight and don't all sleep at once. Research how wizards scry on people in-character and discover how the connection is made. From then on, pay innkeepers extra to allow you to keep the linens and dispose of them yourself, keep your nail shavings, cut your hair short (bald if possible) take all superfluous personal effects and incinerate it all. Adopt psyudonyms and wear helmets and masks to avoid allowing people to see your likeness to prevent a closer connection and make it harder for them to get bonuses to the roll. Pump Will saves with everything you've got. Get ahold of Dimensional Anchor spells somehow to keep wizards you meet from escaping to plague you later. No matter what you're doing, if you have enemies, stay active. Never stop moving until you don't have enemies anymore. Make jokes about how you're superheroes now.

This won't make you proof against wizard sneak attacks, but it could make them burn 3 or 4 spells slots on Scrying. Every time they have to memorize Scry to be sure it'll work is capacity the wizard doesn't have, it's a Greater Invisibility or Polymorph or Enervation or Black Tentacles that they don't otherwise have.

[Karoht]

Wow. A ton of fantastic suggestions.

My DM also mentioned an item, some kind of stone that prevents teleporation into a given area. No idea what that is. I'm pretty sure he said it was in Magic Item Compendium, but he might have said DMG.


It doesn't help that my DM is pulling literally from every 3.5 resource there ever was, books that most of the party members have never read, never mind having heard of spells or items from.

[eggs]

Usually Scry-and-Die is synonymous with "Game degrading into Contingency oneupmanship." But if that's the game that's being played, play it.

Contingencies are available through Divine Crusader (Kobold, Shadow and Time domains) and through Contingent Spell "items."

[Gavinfoxx]

There are a few useful items.. the stone he mentioned is in player's guide to faerun

Wierdstone.

It doesn't completely prevent teleportation, though.... there are a LOT of ways around it. What it does is make it harder for a wizard to teleport, and he has to spend more resources getting around it.

Also, get DRAGON MAGAZINE #319!!!

I don't care how you get it, but it has a TON of anti scrying items in it. Some of them are even quite inexpensive! Go look at those, they are VERY VERY USEFUL!!

Again, they aren't 100% foolproof, but they are useful in deterring, and making life more difficult for, scrying wizard types.

Also

YOU NEED ROPE TRICK.

I dont care how... but you REALLY NEED IT.

[Flickerdart]

There's a lovely 3rd level spell in the Spell Compendium called Anticipate Teleportation. It lasts for 24 hours, and alerts you with a description of anything that attempts to teleport within CL squares of you and then delays the teleportation for one whole round. So not only will your assailant be landing flat-footed against you, but you'll have an entire round to buff, summon or otherwise prepare.

[Karoht]

Usually Scry-and-Die is synonymous with "Game degrading into Contingency oneupmanship." But if that's the game that's being played, play it.Well, the DM has stated that he feels that rocket tag is a valid form of play, though the context of that comment was not necessarily in reference towards this campaign.

He also said that he's trying to encourage broken tactics from the party. I'm not sure if he's trying to tell a story so much as conduct an experiment, but whatever.


@Various Wands of Mess With Scrying and Teleporation
The eternal wand suggestion in regards to Nondetection and Anticipate Teleportation strike me as good first purchases. I wonder if I can get a Wand of Rope Trick.

The Cleric is of the Earth Domain, I forget who asked. His first session involved him using Create Pit + Dark Way over it, and turned a Werebear into goop. He's neutral (currently) and channels positive.
I'm going to strongly advise Nightsticks + Persist buffs as base level cheese.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, the DM has stated that he feels that rocket tag is a valid form of play, though the context of that comment was not necessarily in reference towards this campaign.

He also said that he's trying to encourage broken tactics from the party. I'm not sure if he's trying to tell a story so much as conduct an experiment, but whatever.


@Various Wands of Mess With Scrying and Teleporation
The eternal wand suggestion in regards to Nondetection and Anticipate Teleportation strike me as good first purchases. I wonder if I can get a Wand of Rope Trick.

The Cleric is of the Earth Domain, I forget who asked. His first session involved him using Create Pit + Dark Way over it, and turned a Werebear into goop. He's neutral (currently) and channels positive.
I'm going to strongly advise Nightsticks + Persist buffs as base level cheese.

Yea, with Detect Scry/Fool Vision and Anticipate Teleport, you can REALLY put a damper on your opponent's Scry n Die tactics. Doesn't negate it, but it makes it a *LOT* more annoying and expensive to bypass. Forbiddance your Base of Operations. That's about the best you can reasonably do to prevent Scry n Die outside of Mind Blank.

Mind you, if your opponent is willing to blow Wishes on moving threats into you, there's literally nothing you can do to stop him. At that point, it's less of stopping his teleportation and more about making sure he never finds you in the first place.

Check my sig for the Joker Bard, who severely mitigates the usefulness of Scry n Die tactics. Not all options are available to you, but you can get an idea.

[legomaster00156]

Don't allow yourselves to become vulnerable or weak; heal quickly after each fight and don't all sleep at once. Research how wizards scry on people in-character and discover how the connection is made. From then on, pay innkeepers extra to allow you to keep the linens and dispose of them yourself, keep your nail shavings, cut your hair short (bald if possible) take all superfluous personal effects and incinerate it all. Adopt psyudonyms and wear helmets and masks to avoid allowing people to see your likeness to prevent a closer connection and make it harder for them to get bonuses to the roll. Pump Will saves with everything you've got. Get ahold of Dimensional Anchor spells somehow to keep wizards you meet from escaping to plague you later. No matter what you're doing, if you have enemies, stay active. Never stop moving until you don't have enemies anymore. Make jokes about how you're superheroes now.
This is epic mundane-character paranoia. :smallbiggrin:

[Korivan]

I would like to at this juncture point out that the scry and die wizard does not actually have to teleport. One of our players as a warmage liked to scry...then overwhelm with massive amounts of hp damage dealing, widened spells.

Yes they'd save...

yes they'd even live by a evasion...

but will they save a dozen times? Two dozen?

Sometimes, but they'd need a new home. And town.

[Eldest]

This is epic mundane-character paranoia. :smallbiggrin:

Now, to tak it up a notch.
Pay peasants to start disguising themselves as you, and start leaving red herrings around. Disguise yourself as other people, using magic or skill. Stay someplace you know you can escape from in one or two rounds, max, with multiple exits.

[sonofzeal]

Wierdstone.

It doesn't completely prevent teleportation, though.... there are a LOT of ways around it. What it does is make it harder for a wizard to teleport, and he has to spend more resources getting around it.
Not really. The wording on it is incredibly broad. Just about the only thing that works is Wish, to move a single thing into the warded area, but even that can't get them back out unless they destroy or suppress the wierdstone.

(Edit) Or possibly Void Disciples, but nothing blocks them.

[Karoht]

Scry and Invisibility + Fly 700+ feet off the ground directly over the player party and rain fire and brimstone from the sky in the dead of night? Yeah, that sounds kind of annoying to counter.

Still, you guys have given me plenty to work over.
And if I prevent the scry, I prevent the die.

I'll have to look into more of the limitations of scrying as well. IE-They might not be able to scry me because I'm immune by whatever method, but they can scry every Inn and Church and Temple within a reasonable area and see if I turn up.

I'm thinking Disguises, props to Shneeky and his Joker Bard concept.


Ugh. Need sleep. More tomorrow.

[Psyren]

This is epic mundane-character paranoia. :smallbiggrin:

I recall a quote from... Tippy?... in someone's sig about how high-level characters (especially wizards) only survive to high levels by being the luckiest and most paranoid mothe- uh, "folks" on the planet. So that description may in fact be warranted.

[Jerthanis]

I'll have to look into more of the limitations of scrying as well. IE-They might not be able to scry me because I'm immune by whatever method, but they can scry every Inn and Church and Temple within a reasonable area and see if I turn up.



Scry has a 1 hour casting time and a 4th level spell slot. Greater Scrying is 1 standard action, but is 7th level! If they have enough slots and simultaneous scry capable wizards to scry on every Inn and Temple in miles, you're entering into "Rocks fall, everyone dies" territory. It stops being "Protect against Scry-and-die" and becomes "Counter arbitrary wizards out of nowhere with no explanation in force of numbers no one could reasonably expect you to overcome anyway."

[Doorhandle]

If you're warding a base, teleport trap (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/teleport-trap) could be your best friend.

[Featherman]

Vecna-Blooded creatures from Monster Manual V have potent defenses against divinations. It is an acquired +1 LA template that can be added to evil creatures who can cast at least 2 level arcane spells (and who are favored by Vecna). It makes you look like Voldemort but in exchange you get a very good aura that makes people unable to "attack the Vecna-Blooded in any way, including with spells and special abilities" with 50% chance and without a save. It also gives you immunity to "all divination spells cast against it or cast to learn information about it" and as a bonus you learn the diviners location, name and appearance.

While it is clearly meant for npcs it has a level adjustment and I don't see anything which would prevent player characters from taking it.

[Curmudgeon]

My approach to this has always been to get a good form of Hide in Plain Sight and simply Hide all the time. If the Wizard never knows what you look like it's very difficult to scry on you. If the Wizard is scrying on someone else nearby you won't show up unless the Wizard makes a Spot check that beats your Hide. If you're unseen you can't be targeted by any spell, and True Seeing and See Invisibility are powerless against someone who's simply hidden.

[Reaver225]

My approach to this has always been to get a good form of Hide in Plain Sight and simply Hide all the time. If the Wizard never knows what you look like it's very difficult to scry on you. If the Wizard is scrying on someone else nearby you won't show up unless the Wizard makes a Spot check that beats your Hide. If you're unseen you can't be targeted by any spell, and True Seeing and See Invisibility are powerless against someone who's simply hidden.


As with all divination (scrying) spells, the sensor has your full visual acuity, including any magical effects. In addition, the following spells have a 5% chance per caster level of operating through the sensor: detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, detect law, detect magic, and message.Better hope you're neutral nonmagical, or they'll pick up your magical items good/evil/chaos/lawness in a few rounds.

[Togo]

Get ranks in spot.

Scrying creates a magical sensor. The sensor is invisible, so you need a spot check of 40 to see it, or 20 if it's moving. As long as you're moving about, a party of adventures with decent spot scores can no more by scryed upon without them noticing than they can be followed by a silent invisible ghost without them noticing. Someone is going to make a spot roll, sooner or later.

If you're walking through in a crowded city, the chance drops to almost zero. Any passerby makes a check, and you'll be passing by people literally hundreds of times an hour - someone will make a check within a few seconds.

If you get the quick reconnoitre feat, you can just make spot checks all day every day, and the chance of undetected scrying quickly drops to almost zero,even if you're on your own.

The problem is not scrying, which is a spell that takes an hour to cast and lasts roughly 10 mins, which is only useful if the caster can predict well in advance when you are going to be doing something worth seeing, but greater scrying, which takes less time and lasts for hours. It's a 7th level spell, so you shouldn't see it much before you reach 10th level or so. So long as you walk around whenever you do or say anything important, just like people do to fool modern surveillance, then you'll notice the scrying sensor.

Once noticed, you need to take counter measures. Dispel magic, probably through a wand, is the easiest method. Lead sheeting is a possibility. My favourite is generally to head to an area which will get the scryer in trouble, such as the king's court, a secretive temple, etc., and let him deal with the political consequences.

There are also a few counter measures you can also do to make the process of scying frustrating for him. Swap words in an obscure language every so often, forcing him to have tongues active all the time just in case you say something important. Sleep in room hung with mosquitoe netting, a light substance that won't stop you moving around, but will 'fill' the area sufficent that anything teleporting in will be painfully shunted aside. Camp in a circle of powdered silver, so that if he summons anything in your vacinity, you can cast prot evil 10' radius and then just go back to sleep. Use hand signs to communicate - his visual radius is stuck at 10' around the subject from a particular angle, which means he can't see anyone standing more than 10' away from the target.

You don't need to do all of these all the time - just make up a list and roll randomly to see which one you use, forcing him to counter all of them all the time.

In general, scry-and-die is an effective tactic only in the short term, at very high level, or where the DM is hand waving the practical difficulties and spell slots involved. If running a scry-and-die antangonist is not personally a lot of work for the DM in tracking spell slots, components, rest periods etc., then you're doing it wrong. Make sure your enemy understands that scrying on someone all the time is boring, unpleasant, difficult, unreliable, consumes large numbers of spells per day, can get him into trouble with others, and causes him far more trouble and hassle than it ultimately does to you.

Incidently, if he still decides to keep you under continuous surveillance, then you should hunt him out. Wait until he's cast the spell about 20 times or so, and then start looking for anyone who has been buying up hawk or eagle eyes in bulk. That should give you an idea of where he is, and unless high level mages are really common, should give you an idea of who he is. Then start adding contact poison to his spell components, and ingestive poison wrapped in lead mesh (undetectable by divination) to his food supply. It won't kill him, but it will make life very very very boring for him.

[Togo]

Scry and Invisibility + Fly 700+ feet off the ground directly over the player party and rain fire and brimstone from the sky in the dead of night? Yeah, that sounds kind of annoying to counter..

Move once, and he doesn't know where you are. Scry gives him 10' radius - unless he's memorised every leaf and branch of the local area, he doesn't know where you are. Then just stand under a tree.

Dealing with flying wizards is a pain generally, but scrying doesn't much help him here.

[Kholai]

Iron Heart Surge being observed, on the grounds that the observation was collapsing your waveform.

Or just the scrying spell I suppose.

[Curmudgeon]

Better hope you're neutral nonmagical, or they'll pick up your magical items good/evil/chaos/lawness in a few rounds.
But of course. Nystul's Magic Aura is low-level (1st) and long-lasting (1 day/level). At 10th level a single daily casting in rotation "de-magics" 10 exposed magic items, and one 1st-level Pearl of Power (1,000 gp) lets the party spellcaster recover that spell. (Other, infrequently accessed magic items stay inside a Heward's Handy Haversack except when being used.)

[Karoht]

Vecna-Blooded creatures from Monster Manual V have potent defenses against divinations. It makes you look like Voldemort but in exchange...One of the summoners is a Goblin. He's ugly (I think) already. He may have taken a flaw as such as well, I don't remember.
Either way, he might be the perfect candidate for that particular template. I'll suggest it.



Scry has a 1 hour casting time and a 4th level spell slot. Greater Scrying is 1 standard action, but is 7th level! If they have enough slots and simultaneous scry capable wizards to scry on every Inn and Temple in miles, you're entering into "Rocks fall, everyone dies" territory. It stops being "Protect against Scry-and-die" and becomes "Counter arbitrary wizards out of nowhere with no explanation in force of numbers no one could reasonably expect you to overcome anyway."How many DM's have tried to nonsense fiat their way through tighter defenses? :smallwink:



Iron Heart Surge being observed, on the grounds that the observation was collapsing your waveform.
Or just the scrying spell I suppose.This. +1 Internets for you!

[Andvare]

Summoners are considered to be tier 2-3, plenty of power, not all that flexible.
They do have UMD as a class skill though, and are charisma based.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Scrying doesn't have to be time/resource consuming on a daily basis. Two words: crystal ball.

[streakster]

You could also take a look at the Eyes to the Sky and Live My Nightmare feats - the first lets you know whenever you're being scryed on, and the second makes anyone who targets you with a divination spell save or die (two saves, though, sadly).

[Occasional Sage]

Now, to tak it up a notch.
Pay peasants to start disguising themselves as you, and start leaving red herrings around. Disguise yourself as other people, using magic or skill. Stay someplace you know you can escape from in one or two rounds, max, with multiple exits.

Another notch: use masks as suggested above in conjunction with identical robes over armor etc, and Detect Scrying. Whenever you are alerted to a peeping tom, wait through Scry's duration and then swap masks. The enemy wizard will show up knowing that the cleric is in the hawk mask and the paladin in the five colors of beads, and start targeting appropriately. Surprise!

[dextercorvia]

But of course. Nystul's Magic Aura is low-level (1st) and long-lasting (1 day/level). At 10th level a single daily casting in rotation "de-magics" 10 exposed magic items, and one 1st-level Pearl of Power (1,000 gp) lets the party spellcaster recover that spell. (Other, infrequently accessed magic items stay inside a Heward's Handy Haversack except when being used.)

I was actually wondering this the other day. Who wins?

HiPS+Nystul's Magic Aura+Insane Hide Check vs. True Seeing+Arcane Sight

And, what would tip the scales the other way?

[Gavinfoxx]

You forgot Darkstalker...

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11034.0

And undead, and a few other stealth relevant templates...

[Randomguy]

I was actually wondering this the other day. Who wins?

HiPS+Nystul's Magic Aura+Insane Hide Check vs. True Seeing+Arcane Sight

And, what would tip the scales the other way?

Hiding beats magic sight detection, but it doesn't beat Mindsight. They probably won't have mindsight, though.

[Curmudgeon]

Hiding beats magic sight detection, but it doesn't beat Mindsight. They probably won't have mindsight, though.
Mindsight doesn't matter in this context. Mindsight only works "within range of its telepathy", with no exception for Scrying. And Mindsight doesn't help a spellcaster with most of their spells anyway, because hidden characters can't be targeted.

[Togo]

Scrying doesn't have to be time/resource consuming on a daily basis. Two words: crystal ball.

True, although with will DC 16 negates, and a duration of a few minutes, you're not looking at anything terribly subtle or constant here.

This brings us back to the point about scrying. Yes, if you want to scry on someone at a particular point and a particular time, then you can do so. If you want to constantly monitor someone, or claim to know everything about them, scying simply isn't going to cut it. The practical difficulties are too great, and you're better off with non-magical alternatives. For example, if your target is relatively famous, just talk to a bard.

[Tim Proctor]

I'm always as fan of the feats:

Eyes to the sky, ( Unearthed Arcana, p. 93) you automagically detect the sensor and can blast it.

Whispered Secrets, ( Races of Destiny, p. 155) same thing but with more restrictions. Have to be a cleric of Vecna, but you get a couple extra spells.

My favorite is the Legendary Leader class, someone says make a will save vs. scrying you say "I succeed" your DM says "you didn't roll", I say "I don't need to I can choose just to succeed once a day, and then is the next time he can attempt that spell".

Mage’s Private Sanctum, the spell is a great one, I use it on every BBEG's place, Castles, Palaces, Fortresses, etc. because in a world with magic there are defenses against it.

Then if you have the money a good Spell Turret from DMGII is a great one, they are considered to have a readied action and true-sight. A sensor pops in and bam it gets shot down immediately. Get Orb of Sound, Dimensional Anchor, the other two don't matter as much. The sensor gets blow out before the guy can teleport in, if for some reason he has contingency against his sensor being blown up and teleports in he gets locked in with dimension anchor.

[Jack of Trades]

There are a few useful items.. the stone he mentioned is in player's guide to faerun

Wierdstone.

It doesn't completely prevent teleportation, though.... there are a LOT of ways around it. What it does is make it harder for a wizard to teleport, and he has to spend more resources getting around it.



I'd like to know how your getting around it. It prevents all teleportation or dimension movement, including incorporeal travel, for 6 miles around it. Both magical and psionic.

In regards to the original issue... All the non-detection and other stuff just delays the fight. Eventually the DM will figure out a way, or sleight of hand rules that they sucessfully scryed using a secret technique and the fight is on!

The best strategy is to use the Anticipate Teleportation spell.
You now know when and where they will show up.

How to use that one round is the question.

How about greaseing the square for hilarious results?
If you hear some slip and thump sounds but don't see anybody, then throw some anti-invisibility spells at the square (perhaps glitterdust?) Have your backstabber standing by.

Or how about some tentacles followed up with glitterdust?

Maybe summon monsters to help greet them? Especially the one that can cast dispel magic at will. They're always fun with wizards.

If they teleport outside your Anticipate Teleportation range, then they are no longer scry-and-die wizards, but ambush-with-mobility wizards. And that makes them just a normal enemy.

The point is that with Anticipate Teleportation, a scry and die wizard is never suprising you, gives you a round of prep time, but determines when and where the fight takes place.

[Kelb_Panthera]

True, although with will DC 16 negates, and a duration of a few minutes, you're not looking at anything terribly subtle or constant here.

This brings us back to the point about scrying. Yes, if you want to scry on someone at a particular point and a particular time, then you can do so. If you want to constantly monitor someone, or claim to know everything about them, scying simply isn't going to cut it. The practical difficulties are too great, and you're better off with non-magical alternatives. For example, if your target is relatively famous, just talk to a bard.

Subtle, no not really. Constant, probably. With a crystal ball you can spam the living daylights out of scrying until it gets through. They'll undoubtably know someone's spamming a will-save effect at them, but untill they spot the sensor, they won't know what. There's also scrying people you know, or at least suspect, are near the target. Even if your target has a monster will save, his BSF buddy probably doesn't. Or his horse. Or his animal companion. or maybe his cohort. You get the picture (even if the reception isn't great :smalltongue:)

[Togo]

Subtle, no not really. Constant, probably. With a crystal ball you can spam the living daylights out of scrying until it gets through.

Only once a day though. If you pass a will save against scrying, the scryer can't try again for 24hours.

Scrying his horse is probably a more solid tactic, since the horse, even if annoyed by constant scrying, is unlikely to complain in a such a way that the PCs will notice. But even a light riding horse has a will save of +2, meaning it passes on a 14 or better, which gives you, on average, 1.5 to 3 hours of quality time per day watching the horse, not being able to see anything more than two sqaures away from it, before even it becomes immune. And even that assumes you actually have some of the horse's hair physically in your possession, to counter the -10 for not really knowing the horse socially. And that still doesn't solve the problem that you're assuming the party is clustered quite close together, at which point they're likely to see the sensor, and quite quickly work out who you're scrying on.

Given that you actually have to get into the stables and steal body hair from their mounts for this work, why not just forget the horse, and indeed the scrying, and spend a fraction of the money bribing the innkeeper to give you the key to the PC's rooms, and just go upstairs and attack them in the middle of the night? I appreciate that breaking into their bedroom, or just hiding behind a rock on a road you know they'll travel down, is somehow less wizardly than scrying on them, but it takes less effort and prep time, and means you don't start the combat having just cast a high level teleport spell, which surely makes it the more powerful option?

[Kelb_Panthera]

oops. Missed the part about one success blocking it for the day. :smallredface: