Graphic Card Shopping - Help Wanted!

[Koury]

OK, so I've been slowly working on getting my computer better able to play games and am now looking seriously into graphics cards but... I need help.

I dont know what cards are good values, which are compatable with my current set up, which ones are almost comparable except for one cheap upgrade somewhere else, etc, etc, etc.

Computer Specs (http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/systems/insp560mt/en/cs/cs_en.pdf)

I don't know what of this information is really relevent. I have the 570, when the pdf shows multiple options.

So yeah, any help here is appreciated. I'm kinda directionless from here.

I want my computer to be able to run games like Skyrim and Civ V on at least moderate graphical settings. I dont know if thats an out of reach goal with my cirrent rig or not though.

Help? :smalleek:

[Augmental]

I have an AMD Radeon HD 6450, and my computer runs Skyrim without any lag on High graphics settings.

[Koury]

Interesting. That is the exact same tier (http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gaming-graphics-card-review,3107-7.html) as a card I know works with my system but that I am worried may be weak (HD 4650 DDR2).

[Reluctance]

First thing that stands out to me is that the power supply is puny. 300W is likely a tight fit for your system already. I think adding a graphics card would put you over.

Second, the PDF you listed mentions ranges for processor capabilities and RAM. I'm pretty sure you could get a functional game going so long as you meet system reqs, but I have a feeling that more than $100 in graphics card will be bottlenecked by the rest of your system.

(Augmental: What manufacturer made your card? Different manufacturers can have things like overclockability or more video RAM on top of the base chip architecture. I'd recommend a better known brand like Sapphire, but browsing reviews at Newegg should give a better idea what's good and what isn't.)

[Koury]

The HD 4650 DDR2 (http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=19&sku=A2829980&mfgpid=208430&~ck=baynoteSearch&baynote_bnrank=0&baynote_irrank=0) is a card Dell told me should plug right in and work with no need to modify anything else. I specifically asked about my power supply and they said I was good.

My other specs are decent (not great, but decent). 3 Ghz processor (AMD Athlon(tm) II X2 250) and 4 GB RAM (that sometimes shows up as 3.8 GB for some reason).

[tyckspoon]

If you can afford it, the HD 7750 is the most powerful thing currently going that you can run on your power supply.


First thing that stands out to me is that the power supply is puny. 300W is likely a tight fit for your system already. I think adding a graphics card would put you over.

I'd have to get some more exact info and look up the motherboard to be certain, but odds are his system has ~100W or more spare. A 300W supply should be more than enough for any card that does not require a supplemental power connector, as long as the PSU is good for its stickered power rating.

[Synovia]

First thing that stands out to me is that the power supply is puny. 300W is likely a tight fit for your system already. I think adding a graphics card would put you over.


Depends on the card. Most non-enthusiast cards aren't all that power hungry. I've got an i5 based machine with a discrete graphics card, running fine on a 300w'er.

OP, you're gonna have to pull the box open and check what you have. My Optiplex can't have its graphics card updated because the powersupply doesn't have any connectors... just the 24 pin MB connector, and a pair of sata HD connectors... there's no molex anywhere. I'd have to start splicing things.

So first you need to pop open the box and see if upgrading is a viable option for you.

[Koury]

Depends on the card. Most non-enthusiast cards aren't all that power hungry. I've got an i5 based machine with a discrete graphics card, running fine on a 300w'er.

OP, you're gonna have to pull the box open and check what you have. My Optiplex can't have its graphics card updated because the powersupply doesn't have any connectors... just the 24 pin MB connector, and a pair of sata HD connectors... there's no molex anywhere. I'd have to start splicing things.

So first you need to pop open the box and see if upgrading is a viable option for you.

Is this what you're refering to?

System Board Connectors
{table]Memory| four 240-pin connectors
PCI |one 124-pin connector
PCI Express x1 |two 36-pin connectors
PCI Express x16 |one 164-pin connector
Power (system board) |one 24-pin EPS 12V connector
(ATX-compatible)
Processor fan |one 4-pin connector
Chassis fan |one 3-pin connector
Front USB connector |three 9-pin connectors
Front audio connector |one 9-pin connector for 2-channel stereo sound
and microphone
SATA |four 7-pin connectors[/table]

That list is pulled straight from the PDF in the OP. Hopefully that helps. I just really want to avoid buying something incompatable. :smallredface:

So, I assume the HD 4650 will plug right in and everything will be fine since Dell said so (hopefully THAT is at least a good assumption :smalleek:). Will the HD 7750 (as suggested by Tyckspoon) plug in and not need anything else upgraded as well? If so, thats a fair bit stronger then the 4650.

Speaking of the 4650, it has a DDR2 and a DDR3 version. The Dell recommended one is the DDR2. Is there any reason the DDR3 wouldn't work? PSU issue perhaps? Either way, I'd prefer the 7750 if possible but just curious.

Or even better, how do I go about figuring this out? What do I look up? How do I know what connectors cards need?

[factotum]

That section tells you what connectors are available on the motherboard, not what's available from the PSU, which is what Synovia was asking about. However, that's only relevant if the graphics card you're planning on getting requires more power than the PCI-Express slot can provide--in that case the card will have an additional power connector somewhere on it that needs to be attached directly to the PSU. You'll need to check if this is the case for the card you're planning on getting!

[Koury]

I was looking more in depth at the 7750 that was suggested by tyckspoon and it looks like the reccomended power supply is 450w.

Is going below the recommended power supply a thing you can do? If so, how do you know what the minimum supply that would work?

And if you can't go below recommended, then my search begins again for something my 300w supply can handle. :smallsmile:

[tyckspoon]

I was looking more in depth at the 7750 that was suggested by tyckspoon and it looks like the reccomended power supply is 450w.

Is going below the recommended power supply a thing you can do? If so, how do you know what the minimum supply that would work?

And if you can't go below recommended, then my search begins again for something my 300w supply can handle. :smallsmile:

Most recommended ratings have *massive* amounts of padding in them; it's a side effect of the fact that a lot of cheap PSUs are marked for significantly more power than they can actually provide. The 7750 will run just fine off a sound 300w supply; it just happens that if you purchase a $20 "450w" supply, you probably will actually *get* about 300w of reliable power from it.

(For reference: The 7750 has a TDP of 55W, and the X2 250 processor is rated for 65w. That is the most amount of power those items will draw before they begin to throttle themselves to avoid thermal damage- in other words, if they are running flat out as hard as they can safely operate, between them they will be using at most 120W. That leaves 180W to supply the rest of the system, and the GPU and CPU are by far the most power-hungry parts- almost nothing else in a computer even breaks double digits of power usage.)

PS: I just noticed the 4650 you linked on Dell's parts-finder is a slimline/short form-factor card. If you require that form factor, that is probably a much more significant limitation than the power supply, as it can be quite difficult to find decently powerful cards that are produced in the smaller size.

[Maxios]

I have an AMD Radeon HD 6450, and my computer runs Skyrim without any lag on High graphics settings.

I'm thinking about buying a new graphics card as well. How much does this cost?

[Koury]

PS: I just noticed the 4650 you linked on Dell's parts-finder is a slimline/short form-factor card. If you require that form factor, that is probably a much more significant limitation than the power supply, as it can be quite difficult to find decently powerful cards that are produced in the smaller size.

Hmm... The other card recommended by them is this guy (http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=19&sku=F834P&mfgpid=205141&chassisid=8966&~ck=baynoteSearch&baynote_bnrank=0&baynote_irrank=0), but the product description is a barren wasteland of "Not available" information, including the form factor.

I googled it and looked everywhere, but no one has more info on the card. Not sure if you can tell its form factor by looking at it.

Anyway, yeah, thanks for all the help. :smallsmile:

[Erloas]

That refurbished graphics card is listed as both a full size and low profile in the description, probably just with a switch in the back plate. A picture of your case, or maybe just a simple measurement from the motherboard to the side of the case, should give us a pretty good idea if it needs to be low profile.

And of course, once we know what you need, go to Newegg.com to buy it and it will probably cost half of what Dell will charge.
Assuming this link works, any of these should work, even if you don't need a low-profile (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007709+600001667+600083901&QksAutoSuggestion=&ShowDeactivatedMark=False&Configurator=&IsNodeId=1&Subcategory=48&description=&hisInDesc=&Ntk=&CFG=&SpeTabStoreType=&AdvancedSearch=1&srchInDesc=)

[Koury]

Case specs, from the PDF.

Height - 375.92 mm (14.80 inches)
Width - 176.02 mm (6.93 inches)
Depth - 442.98 mm (17.44 inches)

Not sure if that helps much. :smallredface: 7750 is still my pick if it fits, but if not I am interested in the 6670 if I need a SFF card though. Thanks for the link. :smallsmile:

[tyckspoon]

A 'standard' sized card (ie, not hugely oversized like the really high-end gaming cards) is roughly 7-9" by 5", so you should be ok.

Edit: Width is the relevant number on the case size, btw- the graphics card is installed perpendicular on the motherboard, so you're comparing case width to card height. If you have a an inch, inch-and-a-half of clearance on that comparison you're probably good.

[Erloas]

I looked through the specs and didn't notice the case dimensions. That would be a normal mid-tower and should fit just about everything.

After a bit of checking, since I haven't spec'd out computer parts in a while, the 7750 looks like a good choice, it isn't quite as powerful as some other cards at that price point, but it is one of the best in terms of power consumption. That will probably be a bigger issue for you since you have a fairly small PSU and you will probably be processor bound in many situations anyway, especially with Skyrim.

Considering that now you have integrated graphics, any upgrade will be a huge improvement.

[Karoht]

Hey guys, can you recommend me a graphics card?

Radeon, top end is $125 before warrenties and such.
I'm running an AMD 3GHz X4
I've got an 850W power supply
Probably upgrading from 8 gigs to 16 gigs of ram at the same time.

Crossfire compatible board, Gigabite I believe. Crossfire capable card prefered but not recommended.

[factotum]

Crossfire compatible board, Gigabite I believe. Crossfire capable card prefered but not recommended.

Generally, if you're going to go Crossfire, you ought to do it from the get-go--it tends to only work well if you have two identical graphics cards, so you need to buy them both at the same time.

Not sure about American pricing so can't help you there, though.

[Erloas]

At that price range the aforementioned 7770 is probably your best bet.

Although at this point you would probably see more results by putting the money for the extra RAM into the video card. Its not often you'll end up using even 8GB of RAM so you'll probably see no difference at all moving up to 16GB.
So I would take that money and look at either the 6850 or the 6870.

And in looking all that up, I'm surprised to see that Walmart.com actually has pretty good prices on decent video cards, and that is without the MIRs of Newegg.

[Koury]

I believe my final questions:

Between these cards (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Productcompare.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100006662&IsNodeId=1&Description=hd%207750&bop=And&CompareItemList=%2D1%7C14%2D127%2D665%5E14%2D127%2 D665%2DTS%2C14%2D121%2D633%5E14%2D121%2D633%2DTS%2 C14%2D102%2D985%5E14%2D102%2D985%2DTS%2C14%2D102%2 D980%5E14%2D102%2D980%2DTS):
I believe the Sapphire (not the Ultimate) is the strongest?
Is it worth $5 for the amount it's better then the ASUS card?
Is PCIe 3 anything I need to think about reguarding if it fits in my machine?
Is there any reason I should not go with one of the 1st two cards?
Final suggestion between these cards (or any other)?

Thanks for all the help. Depending on the answers to this set of questions, I should have a new graphics card soon. :smallsmile:

[Erloas]

The PCIe 3.0 won't make any difference to you.
The cards are slightly different in clock rates, as in some of them are slightly "overclocked" from the factory, which is listed as the Core Clock and Effective Memory Clock, with the Sapphire being the highest.
The only thing the Sapphire Ultimate has going for it is that it is passively cooled, IE no fan, so it will be silent, but it is clocked the slowest of the 4 because of that too.
Will you ever notice the difference in clock rates? Probably not, and you will probably be able to match them anyway by manually OCing if you so wish. The primary difference between brands is generally warranty and service if it happens to break (I've never seen a video card with failure problems though, at least no where near the 2-3 year warranty period most offer).

[Karoht]

At that price range the aforementioned 7770 is probably your best bet.

Although at this point you would probably see more results by putting the money for the extra RAM into the video card. Its not often you'll end up using even 8GB of RAM so you'll probably see no difference at all moving up to 16GB.
So I would take that money and look at either the 6850 or the 6870.

And in looking all that up, I'm surprised to see that Walmart.com actually has pretty good prices on decent video cards, and that is without the MIRs of Newegg.

Since I'm not up on my graphics card nomenclature
the 7770 is a lesser card than the 6850 or 6870? I'm infering from the above that the 6850 would be more expensive than the 7770.

Say for a moment that I were going to crossfire a pair of these cards. Would you more strongly recommend the 7770 or the 6850/70 given my stated power supply of 850w?

[tyckspoon]

Since I'm not up on my graphics card nomenclature
the 7770 is a lesser card than the 6850 or 6870? I'm infering from the above that the 6850 would be more expensive than the 7770.

Correct and correct; the 7xxx series is a modestly newer design, but the x8xx denotes the high end of ATI/AMD's graphics lineup. The high end of a previous series tends to still be the more powerful option for a couple of generations compared to a more modest card in a new design.


Say for a moment that I were going to crossfire a pair of these cards. Would you more strongly recommend the 7770 or the 6850/70 given my stated power supply of 850w?

Power supply is not a meaningful concern for you- 850w (from a respectable and reliable manufacturer, anyway) will power 2 of almost anything. For most situations, cost and relevance tend to be the more significant consideration; do you want to pay for 2 cards? And if you do, are you doing anything with your computer that will actually benefit from it? Graphics cards have mostly gotten well ahead of the 'normal' use scenario- a card in the price range you're asking about will do almost anything you want it to up to the 1920 x 1080 resolution. You generally only really need multi-cards or the *really* high end (like $400) cards if you're running multiple monitors or have acquired a higher-res monitor.

[Karoht]

I'm considering running a second monitor, and I am Livestreaming quite a few of my games these days.
But, as I've read further, dual GFX cards aren't really all that beneficial for streaming, and dual port cards exist for dual monitor anyway... so yeah.

Sounds like the 6850 would be a better investment for me.


Now the complicated question.

Video Capture Cards and video capture in general.

Does a video card have the functionality to act as a video capture device? Assuming in this example that I have a desktop and a laptop and I'm trying to use the laptop to vid capture from the desktop. I figure the answer is no (makes sense), but I'll ask anyway. I've had some conflicting advice on some of the livestreaming forums regarding this matter.

[tyckspoon]

Video Capture Cards and video capture in general.

Does a video card have the functionality to act as a video capture device? Assuming in this example that I have a desktop and a laptop and I'm trying to use the laptop to vid capture from the desktop. I figure the answer is no (makes sense), but I'll ask anyway. I've had some conflicting advice on some of the livestreaming forums regarding this matter.

Generally no; video cards are wired and programmed for outbound only. This could and probably will change in the future, as the video card becomes more and more a general-purpose computing and media tool and newer connection standards support bi-directional communication (DisplayPort/Thunderbolt could probably do it if anybody got really serious about working with them, and HDMI is slowly slogging its way there through its various revisions) which will allow card manufacturers to add capture as a standard feature instead of having to build it into the card as extra circuits, logic, and probably a dedicated input port. But in the current state of stuff, you need a separate dedicated bit of hardware to do capture.

[Karoht]

That is what I thought.
And all the ones that the streamers recommend are in the 200 dollar range.

I'm looking at building a cheap streaming box maybe next year. Namely, a separate computer and separate monitor which has only 2 purposes. Stream and record. I think I might just get a cheap box system from costco and slap a decent capture card in and go with it.
Depends on how well my next upgrade handles the streaming + game, though I imagine the next bottleneck is probably going to be the internet connection.

My router could use an upgrade. My wireless G router is nearing a decade of use, and I've already got the wireless N cards in our computers. There's an easy 150 dollar upgrade.

The two card (two PC's to upgrade) with 4 year super warrenties and tax comes to about 350, wireless router with similar warrenty and tax comes to... 130. Wow, some nice upgrades for under 500 bucks, when my budget was 600. Keen.

[tyckspoon]

I'm looking at building a cheap streaming box maybe next year. Namely, a separate computer and separate monitor which has only 2 purposes. Stream and record. I think I might just get a cheap box system from costco and slap a decent capture card in and go with it.
Depends on how well my next upgrade handles the streaming + game, though I imagine the next bottleneck is probably going to be the internet connection.


AMD's APUs could probably handle this well; they're improving on getting the design up to speed on the CPU side, and the GPU half of it is already fairly competitive with entry-level discrete cards. One more cycle of development will likely get it where you want it. Might already be there if you're only intending to use it to receive output from a separate gaming system and kick it on into a stream and not actually running the game locally.

[Karoht]

AMD's APUs could probably handle this well; they're improving on getting the design up to speed on the CPU side, and the GPU half of it is already fairly competitive with entry-level discrete cards. One more cycle of development will likely get it where you want it. Might already be there if you're only intending to use it to receive output from a separate gaming system and kick it on into a stream and not actually running the game locally.

@Bolded
Pretty much. 700 bucks or less gets me a decent enough system (and better monitor than my current one) through costco, another 200 or so gets me the capture card, for this exact purpose.

The "Streaming Box" becomes even handier if I want to start streaming some console games, rather than having it all go through my "Gaming Box"


EDIT:
My motherboard is a...
GA-890GPA-UD3H
I see it having a good lifetime for probably another 2-4 years before the board needs replacement. As such, I might just build a whole new box and use this one as my Streaming Box. We'll see.

[Koury]

OK, ordered the 7750 a few days ago and it's set to arrive in an hour or two. Whenever UPS gets around to delivering it. So I opened up my computer just to get a bit more familiar with it and took this picture.


http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac357/KouryCasey/insidecomp.png

Now, I don't really have any specific questions, just mostly wondering what the slots are all for.

The white horizontal one down bottom, the two horizontal short ones and the black horizontal one. Dont know what any of them are for. I mean, i know one of them are for the graphics card, but yeah.

Then the four vertical slots, I'm pretty sure those are for my RAM. I also assume the two sticks already in there are 2 2 GB sticks.

What is that on the right? With the wires labled P3 plugged in? (EDIT: Hard disk drive, right?)

I feel bad asking these things. I feel like I should know. But I don't and am curious. Walk me through some of these things, please? Thanks for all the help either way. :smallsmile:

[Reluctance]

The different slots towards the lower left are for expansion cards. Without going into detail, plug the graphics card into the top slot and it should work fine. The white one is for an older standard of expansion card, while the smaller black ones are for the same type as the top black one but have smaller bandwidth. Do note the removable metal strips that line up with the expansion slots. They're where you access your card ports through.

Otherwise, fan on the back is to exhaust hot air out of the case, fan on the motherboard is there for the CPU. (Notice the metal thing with lots of fins behind it. That's a heat sink to most effectively dissipate heat from the CPU.) RAM and hard drive are exactly what you'd guessed they'd be.

[Koury]

Alright, card is in and working. Awesome. Been 15 minutes and nothing has blown up yet.

Thanks again for all the help and advice. Gonna go mess with some games and graphics settings. :smalltongue: