Artificer Item Creation ambiguity

[umbergod]

Reading the rules, it seems like Artificers get a +2 to their effective caster level for meeting the prerequisites of items they can craft. The example given is a 3rd level arty making a fireball scroll, which requires a 5th level caster level.

Can this be used to qualify for and make a circlet of persuasion at 3rd level?

[Reluctance]

I forget what the latest word on item caster level is, but the upshot is that it works either way. The only question is if it opens up at third level (assuming the base caster level is the bare minimum), or at first (assuming that Eagle's Splendor is the only prereq).

Still, given that it'll eat up most of your gold at third level and be flat-out unaffordable before then, level shouldn't be the main limiting factor.

[umbergod]

I wondered. Was more hypothetical. Planning an Artificer/Alchemist Savant/Master Alchemist for an upcoming campaign (master alchemist is only if the DM allows infusions to count as arcane spells)

[TuggyNE]

I forget what the latest word on item caster level is, but the upshot is that it works either way. The only question is if it opens up at third level (assuming the base caster level is the bare minimum), or at first (assuming that Eagle's Splendor is the only prereq).

Craft Wondrous Item requires a CL of 3rd, so unless Artificer can bypass that, it can't be any earlier.

However, note that just because an item has an effective CL of 5, doesn't mean you have to be CL 5 to craft it. Just look at sovereign glue: CL 20, requires a Clr 2 spell. What Cleric 20 would waste their time crafting such a tiny thing? Instead, the effective item CL is for interactions with other effects that use CL (dispels, SR, and so on; you'll note that an effective CL of 20 makes the glue impossible to dispel with anything less than greater dispel magic).

[umbergod]

3rd level artificers get craft wondrous item for free :P

semi related question: the Artisan feats, specifically legendary artisan, says "when determining the gold piece cost in raw materials you need to craft any item, reduce the base price by 25%" RAW that would apply to craft checks would it not?

[Endarire]

Craft feats also apply to the Craft skill.

[umbergod]

Craft feats also apply to the Craft skill.

Win, thatch what I thought. This character just got more fun and interesting ^.^

[whibla]

However, note that just because an item has an effective CL of 5, doesn't mean you have to be CL 5 to craft it. Just look at sovereign glue: CL 20, requires a Clr 2 spell. What Cleric 20 would waste their time crafting such a tiny thing? Instead, the effective item CL is for interactions with other effects that use CL (dispels, SR, and so on; you'll note that an effective CL of 20 makes the glue impossible to dispel with anything less than greater dispel magic).

I'm going to have to disagree with you here.

The price for Sovereign Glue (2.4k per charge) clearly means the item is created by a 20th level caster. It's only a 2nd level spell effect, as you point out, single charge, and use activated. Gives a base price of 2k. I think the extra 20% came from a deprecated ruling in 3.0, and the cost was simply never updated, either having been overlooked (most likely) or for being of minor to irrelevant importance.

Whether or not you'd personally want to create the item is not a criteria for determining its cost, or the caster level required to make it.

It's worth pointing out as well that Sovereign Glue lists one and only one method for breaking the bond, once set, and that's not Dispel Magic. In the same way that an item made whole by the (source) spell cannot be broken again by the casting of a Dispel Magic two bonded items cannot be seperated by casting it either.

While I agree that the item is a bit daft I have a special place in my heart for some of these legacy items, and this has always appealed to my innner child - oh, the fun you can have with magical superglue...

*EDIT* I'm not totally sure whether you're suggesting, in the first sentence that you can create items that have a higher CL than your own. If so, then this is also wrong:
DMG (page 215) says: "For other magic items (other than potions, scrolls, or wands, for which the creator sets the CL, which must be high enough to cast the spell and equal to or lower than their actual caster level) the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level)"

[TuggyNE]

DMG (page 215) says: "For other magic items (other than potions, scrolls, or wands, for which the creator sets the CL, which must be high enough to cast the spell and equal to or lower than their actual caster level) the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level)"

Sure enough. Mea culpa; I was working off memory there.

Which raises the question again: just what Cleric 20 is stupid enough to craft the stuff, anyway, and just how many Cleric 20s exist in a standard NPC population, by the tables?

[umbergod]

Sure enough. Mea culpa; I was working off memory there.

Which raises the question again: just what Cleric 20 is stupid enough to craft the stuff, anyway, and just how many Cleric 20s exist in a standard NPC population, by the tables?

That is a good question, since the glue doesn't strike me as rare :P

[Kelb_Panthera]

Sure enough. Mea culpa; I was working off memory there.

Which raises the question again: just what Cleric 20 is stupid enough to craft the stuff, anyway, and just how many Cleric 20s exist in a standard NPC population, by the tables?

Perhaps a cleric of a trickster god or a gnome cleric?

[Endarire]

The notion of an item requiring a CL was erroneously left in. It was errataed out in 3.0 and removed somehow in Pathfinder. It's the rule, though.

This rule doesn't apply to items that cast spells, like a Wand of fireball. You still need the prereq caster level.

[lord_khaine]

*EDIT* I'm not totally sure whether you're suggesting, in the first sentence that you can create items that have a higher CL than your own. If so, then this is also wrong:
DMG (page 215) says: "For other magic items (other than potions, scrolls, or wands, for which the creator sets the CL, which must be high enough to cast the spell and equal to or lower than their actual caster level) the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level)"

Thats not the relevant rule, the one you should be looking at is the one artificers have regarding crafting items.

[whibla]

Thats not the relevant rule, the one you should be looking at is the one artificers have regarding crafting items.

In response to a post about the general CL of Sovereign Glue, it is the relevant rule. Quite apart from that, the DMG is the primary source for item creation, and is referenced by the Artifcer class, under their class ability of the same name.

If anything, other than getting an effective caster level of 2 greater than their actual caster level (and that's nit picking over the use of 'caster level') Artificers are more restricted when creating items, and determining the item's caster level, than anyone else who creates magic items because "If the item duplicates a spell effect, however, it uses the artificer’s actual level as its caster level. Costs are always determined using the item’s minimum caster level or the artificer’s actual level (if it is higher)."

They do not seem to have the option to create an item at a lower (caster) level, thereby minimising the cost of creation. There may of course be edits, errata, or 'clarifications' to this, but I can't say I've seen them, or if I have they didn't register as massively important, as I've never played in a game that included an Artificer. Yet.

Either way, the discussion had moved on from the original question, the answer to which was clearly "Yes". At third level an artificer can create an item that usually has a level requirement of 5 (in the OP case only needing a UMD check of 23, in order to be able to emulate a third level caster casting eagle's splendour). There's not really much room for misunderstanding in that rule, imo.

[Acanous]

As for "What Cleric 20 would make this?", I'd suggest a cleric with only a few day's worth of down-time who wants some quick cash.
While they may be capable of altering the laws of physics and become walking avatars of God, the cleric still has no way to mitigate the "One day per 1000 GP" rule.

Plus it costs less XP.

[Alienist]

Magic items have a particular format

(see http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#magicItemDescriptions )

Aura ; CL ; prerequisites ; market price ; cost to create ; weight

The semicolons are important. You should not ignore them.

In general CL is NOT a requirement. CL is not part of the prerequisites clause, it is its own clause.
However, it CAN be. For examples, see the various amulets and bracers in the SRD. Sometimes caster level is specifically called out as a prerequisite, most of the time it is not. Note also that (in those examples) even when caster level is specifically added to the prerequisites, it bears no relation to the CL.

Since you like Sovereign Glue, consider the Salve of Slipperiness. It has two prerequisites, Craft Wondrous Item and Grease. Grease is a level 1 spell, so you can make the salve when you are level 3, but it will have a CL (for saving throws and dispelling) of 6.