Possible cheesy trick?

[Thump]

So, while in Chemistry today, I decided to search up the weight of Osmium, and after a bit, I found that per 10 cubic feet, it weighs approximately 6396 kilograms, or about 12.7 thousand pounds. Per the falling damage from object rules, you could simply create a ten-foot cube of this, and drop it on anything, and since per 200 pounds you deal 1d6 damage, this alone will do 63d6 damage. Now, I'm not sure what the earliest level spell is that creates material, but if you add 200 feet of falling as well, you have about 83d6 damage. Combine this with any enlarging object spells...

you see where I'm going with this?

[The-Mage-King]

Meh.


The cool kids use anti-osmium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2010735#post2010735). :smalltongue:

[Deophaun]

I'll see your 10 cubic feet of osmium, and raise you 1 cubic centimeter of neutronium/degenerate matter.

That's 100 billion kilograms.
Or 220,462,262,185 lbs.
Or 1,102,311,310d6 damage

Start rolling.

[Thump]

I'll see your 10 cubic feet of osmium, and raise you 1 cubic centimeter of neutronium/degenerate matter.

That's 100 billion kilograms.
Or 220,462,262,185 lbs.
Or 1,102,311,310d6 damage

Start rolling.

What in the actual **** is neutronium?

[Zale]

What in the actual **** is neutronium?

Something made of Neutrons. And nothing else.

[Deophaun]

What in the actual **** is neutronium?

The corpse of a dead star.

[Tim Proctor]

Well you'd have to Use Major Creation because you're looking at rare metals (if they even are metals), you have a 10 minute casting time so the only way to really get that as a combat effective trick (rather than waiting 100 rounds) is Contingency. So when someone charges you you'll drop the stuff on their head and squash them, you're DM might give them a reflex save or something.

How many points of Knowledge: Nature will you need to know that such a substance exists?

[lsfreak]

The corpse of a dead star.

More specifically, the remains of a star's core after it goes supernova. The pressure reaches such a great level that atoms break down and electrons and protons fuse into neutrons. Unlike a normal atom - which is essentially void - the neutrons have nothing holding them apart, making it insanely dense.

[Deophaun]

How many points of Knowledge: Nature will you need to know that such a substance exists?
Nature probably wouldn't do it with neutronium. You might have to contact some far-realm intellect to know of it's existence. Although some of the conventional gods might know of it. Moradin, for instance.

[Popertop]

instead of enlarge object, try shrink object.

once you've made a sufficient chunk of osmium, craft an "execution tower", a tower with a chamber that holds the osmium 30ft above (in regular object size) where it will collapse when you throw it down to end the shrink object effect. Boom, instant osmium attack. They probably would get a reflex save, but still, thats like over 200d6 damage, right?

[Tyndmyr]

The big problems are as follows:

1. Does this even exist? Physics and cosmology are not guaranteed to be the same in D&D world as they are here. In some cases(Spelljammer, etc), they are obviously not. In all cases, some materials do exist that are not obviously anything in particular from our world. So, this relies heavily on a DM ruling here.

2. Do you know about it? This is pretty obscure stuff. In a medieval world, literally nobody knows of it. You need to rely on pretty fantastical means of information gathering to discover it.

3. Handling it is...awkward. Very, VERY few chars can manipulate those kinds of weights.

[Slipperychicken]

Uncanny Forethought can reduce casting time to 1 Full-Round action, albeit at -2 caster level.


Also major/minor creation require a bit of what you're trying to create. Neutronium is in everything :smallbiggrin:


Minor/Major Creation has range: 0ft. Need to be directly above the target, and he gets a Reflex DC 15 for half damage. Try not to use the trick on Rogue-types, because they can dodge it pretty easily.

[whibla]

So, while in Chemistry today, I decided to search up the weight of Osmium, and after a bit, I found that per 10 cubic feet, it weighs approximately 6396 kilograms, or about 12.7 thousand pounds. Per the falling damage from object rules, you could simply create a ten-foot cube of this, and drop it on anything, and since per 200 pounds you deal 1d6 damage, this alone will do 63d6 damage. Now, I'm not sure what the earliest level spell is that creates material, but if you add 200 feet of falling as well, you have about 83d6 damage. Combine this with any enlarging object spells...

you see where I'm going with this?

Must be some errata that I'm not aware of, as this isn't the first time I've seen someone claiming that falling objects can do crazy amounts of damage.

My DMG (page 303) under the section heading Falling Objects clearly states: "For each 200 pounds of an object’s weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage).

Sorry to be a killjoy. :smallredface:

[The Glyphstone]

Must be some errata that I'm not aware of, as this isn't the first time I've seen someone claiming that falling objects can do crazy amounts of damage.

My DMG (page 303) under the section heading Falling Objects clearly states: "For each 200 pounds of an object’s weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage).

Sorry to be a killjoy. :smallredface:

That's correct. A falling object can never do more than an additional 20d6 points of damage regardless of how far it falls. That's in a separate sentence, and a completely separate clause, from its damage due to weight.

[Tyndmyr]

And that actually does make rather a great deal of sense. More weight = more impact, but distance => speed does eventually cap out due to terminal velocity.

So, at least in this case, it also makes sense as RAI.

[Eldan]

Read the first part of your quote, regarding item weight. THe limit is for falling distance, as the object reaches terminal velocity.

[whibla]

Interesting.

I guess, since falling damage is capped at 20d6, and environmental damage, such as being immersed in acid or lava, caps at 20d6, I just assumed that damage from falling objects also capped at 20d6.

I can see the logic as to terminal velocity, and I can see the logic to the greater the mass the bigger the impact, but I honestly had never thought that what has been a pretty hard and fast damage cap for the last 3 versions of the game got thrown so violently out of the window.

Whether this is RAI, or just a poorly written rule...well, my mind is not made up, despite the obvious logic in what you're saying. You know what they say about old dogs and new tricks. :smallfrown:

[cfalcon]

While odd, there's nothing really wrong with the osmium trick, though getting it would be presumably about as harsh as getting gold or iridium (iridium is less than a percent denser than osmium, with gold being up there, and even lead coming in at about half of osmium's impressive numbers).

As for hypothetical substances like neutronium and anti-matter, it's debateable as to whether they count as 'substances' for the purposes of most spells. I mean, you may as well ask for a super dense wave of max energy photons, enough to explode the solar system- when you start talking about stuff like "pack a bunch of neutrons", you aren't really talking about "substance", and even the term "matter" is only accurate in a really stretched way.

In any event, your DM should be able to figure out a good way to handle this. But the straight up osmium (or other very dense substance, real or non-mundane) should be accessible and useful in SOME fashion.

[Allanimal]

Minor/Major Creation has range: 0ft. Need to be directly above the target, and he gets a Reflex DC 15 for half damage. Try not to use the trick on Rogue-types, because they can dodge it pretty easily.

Except:



A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#conjuration

So, yeah. You have to make it on a stable surface and somehow get it above your enemy to drop it... Shrink Item will do it, but now it is starting to require a lot of advance planning...

[mucco]

That is why you give a wizard to a hulking hurler. A HH with a 150 Strength that has been polymorphed into any colossal quadruped (I'm not sure it's doable barring loops though) can hurl said dead star because it is within its medium load. It is a bit of a problem because this star has a diameter measuring kilometers, but probably a +1 Sizing neutron star would do the trick.

You would have to convince the DM that the reality does not bend around this star due to its immense gravity field, but I'd just ask him to point out where in the rules gravity is specifically statted out.

[Ganorenas]

I am interested in this thread and have read a few similar ones, but what happens to the surface of the planet when you drop something with that much weight? Would it create a meteor like effect, obliterate everything (except rogues and furry creatures on the planet... Those poor dinosaurs and dragons) with-in a radius of the impact? Cover the planet with a layer of dust that will black out the sun?

With the neutronium, would it punch a hole through the planet?
Would the gravitational pull of the planet's core keep the neutronium at the core and disrupt the planet from with-in?

That is far more interesting to me than how many d6 it would deal to whomever you drop it on...

Think past the rocks falling :smallsmile:

What do you guys think?

[lsfreak]

You would have to convince the DM that the reality does not bend around this star due to its immense gravity field, but I'd just ask him to point out where in the rules gravity is specifically statted out.

If you've convinced your DM that the game world works like the real world to the point that matters works on an atomic scale just like the real world, I'm pretty sure asking him to ignore the gravity part of it entitles him to walk out the room and never return.

And if you did, you might as well cut to the chase and just make macroscopic clusters of strange quarks.

[mucco]

I am interested in this thread and have read a few similar ones, but what happens to the surface of the planet when you drop something with that much weight? Would it create a meteor like effect, obliterate everything (except rogues and furry creatures on the planet... Those poor dinosaurs and dragons) with-in a radius of the impact? Cover the planet with a layer of dust that will black out the sun?

It's a bit more extreme than that. The neutronium would not fall on the earth at all. The Earth, instead, would fall on the neutronium, getting crushed and crumbled into subatomic particles in its entirety in a matter of... seconds? The Sun would end similarly in a short time as well.

I suspect this translates into a DC 40 Fort save to resist, or something. Nothing that can't be done.

With lighter objects, I'm not an expert but I'm pretty sure it depends on the collision speed as well, which might be low if the item isn't thrown far far up.

lsfreak: but quarks aren't fun! Neutronium stars got all the swag.

[RebelRogue]

A cubic foot of neutronium weighs just about nothing compared to the Earth (I'm assuming the average campaign world is similar), so while it might cause havoc locally, the planet should be quite safe (as long as anti-matter isn't in play).

[ericgrau]

Basically stopped by the same thing that keeps people from summoning whales on people's heads and so on.


A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.


Shennanigans like this have been going on since 2e and are well known, which is why you also can't create things inside of a creature either. IIRC that was the original create water killer.

[graeylin]

so, when you summon a swarm of bats, do they appear on the floor first?

Last I checked, air cannot support a bat any more than it can support a pound of Osmium.

[ericgrau]

Most people might not notice it or run it that way for flying creatures, but it seems they'd come in on the ceiling or floor. Or the DM might use a loose definition of "support" that would let air support winged creatures, and handwave "open space" as applying more to everything else, but that's not really strict RAW. And when you intentionally violate RAI in a thought experiment, you really have to go with RAW.

[Deophaun]

Or the DM might use a loose definition of "support" that would let air support winged creatures, and handwave "open space" as applying more to everything else, but that's not really strict RAW.
Air clearly supports flying creatures: it exerts a force opposite and equal to or greater than gravity on the creature. Not loose at all. What kills it is the "surface" requirement. Air is not a surface (although an underwater bubble...).

[Slipperychicken]

Use a Sizing Flying Called Riverine Buckler, summon the Heavy-Stuff on top of it, then command the Buckler to roll over and drop the Stuff (or teleport onto your person if insufficient space exists to roll over). I'm pretty sure Riverine can support arbitrarily-heavy stuff, being unbreakable and all. If carry capacity is a problem, use a Swift action to make the Buckler arbitrarily-large enough to carry it.

Maybe you could tilt the Buckler to form a crude ramp, and have the Heavy-Thing slide down at such an angle as to hit your target.

[graeylin]

Air clearly supports flying creatures: it exerts a force opposite and equal to or greater than gravity on the creature. Not loose at all. What kills it is the "surface" requirement. Air is not a surface (although an underwater bubble...).
Granted, one can argue that... Can I summon a paper airplane into the air?

By the argument, yes, because air supports flying "things". No, by experiment, because the airplane cannot be supported by air alone, it needs momentum.

However, I like the logic, because water supports swimming creatures, correct?
And almost all air has water in it, so... I can go back to summoning a whale over someone's head?

Or no, because there is not enough water (in air) to support a whale? Just like there is not enough lift in calm air to support a paper airplane.

(if you don't like the paper airplane argument, because it is not a creature, substitute "flying squirrel" or "sugarbaby").

[sparkyinbozo]

Check out the part of the comic where Redcloak invaded the Resistance. I bet you'll spot some of the element(al) Osmium there.

[whibla]

That's correct. A falling object can never do more than an additional 20d6 points of damage regardless of how far it falls. That's in a separate sentence, and a completely separate clause, from its damage due to weight.


And that actually does make rather a great deal of sense. More weight = more impact, but distance => speed does eventually cap out due to terminal velocity.

So, at least in this case, it also makes sense as RAI.


Interesting.

I guess, since falling damage is capped at 20d6 ... I just assumed that damage from falling objects also capped at 20d6.

I can see the logic ... but ... Whether this is RAI, or just a poorly written rule...well, my mind is not made up, despite the obvious logic in what you're saying.

I had a further thought on this, and it's perhaps best demonstrated by means of an example. I'll start by making some basic (simplifying) assumptions. The weight of an average medium sized creature, plus gear, is about 200 lbs. The weight of a large creature, say an ogre, is about 600+ lbs. The weight of a huge creature, say a cloud giant, is about 5000 lbs. Finally I'm going to assume that he terminal velocity of these creatures is roughly the same. It won't be, exactly, but tbh any difference will be minimal.

So, imagine casting a reverse gravity under the feet of these 3 creatures, in a 60' high chamber. How much damage will they take when they hit the ceiling?

By the rules, falling damage deals 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet fallen, to a cap of 20d6, and, since there's no mention of size or weight of the creature, this applies to all creatures, regardless of size. So, they will each take 6d6 points of falling damage.

Now, imagine that there was a creature, say a large spider, clinging to the ceiling above this reverse gravity. How much damage will it take from having these creatures fall onto it?

By the rules (as they have been commonly interpreted above) for falling objects the spider will take:

1d6+5d6 from the medium creature landing on it (6d6 total)

3d6* + 5d6* from the large creature landing on it (8d6 total)

25d6* + 5d6* from the huge creature falling on it (30d6 total)

in other words, despite taking only 6d6 damage himself, the giant causes 5 times as much damage to someone he lands on.

This strikes me as an inherent contradiction. Now, whether that stems from the fact that heavier creatures should take more damage from falling yet don't, the fact remains that falling damage is capped at 20d6. It simply isn't reasonable to cause more damage than you take.

Now, this is just a personal opinion, but in the interests of game balance (bearing in mind that this is a heroic fantasy game, in a magical world, where characters can walk away from spending a round or two bathing in lava**) I'd be tempted to rephrase the section on damage from falling objects as follows:

"For each 200 pounds of an objects weight, and for each 10 foot it falls, the object deals 1d6 points of damage (to a maximum of 20d6). Thus a 200 lb rock falling 20 feet will cause 2d6 points of damage, while a 600 lb statue falling 20 feet will cause 6d6 points of damage. The same statue falling 80 feet will cause 20d6 points of damage (the maximum), rather than 24d6."

I suspect I'm going to be agreeing to disagree with a lot of people on this one...

*What what what? What happened to the laws of physics here? The momentum of the object in the first 10 foot of fall caused 3d6 / 25d6 damage, yet each 10 foot thereafter only causes an additional 1d6? If anything this is the exact opposite of how momentum and acceleration due to gravity works.
**Maximum environmental damage caps at 20d6. Certainly survivable, without resistances, by a high level character for a round or two.