DnD 3.5 Barbarian (need help)

[Svenrir]

I am designing a dnd 3.5 barbarian. Any book goes but trying to stray away from book of vile darkness and book of exalted deeds. I need help designing a level 10 barbarian and path to set him on towards level 20. I use barbarians but dont know how to make a great one. Really appreciate anyones help with this.

[Gavinfoxx]

First... you don't need to take too many levels of Barbarian. You really don't. It's not a bad class, but you can do better. Second, a character is more than a class! Tell us about the character in your head, and we can help you make it.

[Svenrir]

your right silly me. Its a human who wears medium armor dunno which. He believes in combat and loves to fight. He will kill someone in combat even if they lose their weapon. He wields a greataxe. thats all i know.

[Feralventas]

So,
Human,
Medium Armor,
Not particularly good or evil as far as the alignments go, but merciless in combat.

Barbarian for a few levels Does grant some good bonuses, and using it as a base isn't a bad idea, but what I'd suggest is a mix of Barbarian, Fighter, and Warblade. Barbarian for flavor and for the Rage mechanics and Fast Movement and such, up to about the point that you've got Uncanny Dodge, then the 2 levels in Fighter because FEATS, and Warblade from there to give you more combative options than "I attack" or "I full attack."


Note: Warblade is an Initiator class, and your Initiator Level when you multi-class into it is equal to 1/2 of your other class levels+initator levels, so if you pop into Warblade at level 7 (Barb4/ftr2/Wbd1) then you'll have an Initiator level of 4 in total, and will be able to select maneuvers known as such (though your maneuvers readied and the Number of maneuvers you know will still be as a 1st level warblade, but you'll be able to pick more potent maneuvers to use in those slots).

SO,
Presuming no further multi-classing, Barb4/Fighter2/Warblade4 puts you at initator level 7 with full BAB (+10) an Amazing fort save and access to plenty of combat options while still functioning well in Light and Medium armor.

[Gavinfoxx]

I'd consider variants of Fighter and Barbarian to go with your standard Warblade. Think more about the actual combat style or party role and we can help more. Mithral Full Plate + Greataxe, maybe?

[Andvare]

Or you could go with the Spirit Lion Totem ACF for pounce and see invisible creatures.

[Redshark]

Maybe you should check out the barbarian class variants from Unearthed Arcana too. It has some cool ideas to make a different barbarian.

[Gavinfoxx]

EDIT:

Perhaps a Whirling Frenzy, Spirit Lion Totem, Wolf Totem, Barbarian 2; Dungeon Crusher, Hit-and-Run, Skilled City Dweller (Ride to Tumble), Fighter 2; Warblade 6.

[Daftendirekt]

Perhaps Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Wolf Totem Barbarian 2, Thug Dungeon Crusher Hit-and-Run Skilled City Dweller (Ride to Tumble) Fighter 2 Warblade 6.

Because that won't confuse a newer player, not at all. :smallconfused:

[White_Drake]

Well it won't if he's read this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105525)!

[Gavinfoxx]

Because that won't confuse a newer player, not at all. :smallconfused:

I'll edit it for clarity later. When not on a phone.

[BShammie]

Perhaps Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Wolf Totem Barbarian 2, Thug Dungeon Crusher Hit-and-Run Skilled City Dweller (Ride to Tumble) Fighter 2 Warblade 6.


I'll edit it for clarity later. When not on a phone.

Here, I'll explain it for you.

Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) is a Rage alternate feature. You lose access to Rage's normal bonuses, in exchange for a +4 to Strength, +2 dodge bonus to armor class and reflex saves, and one extra attack per round while in the Frenzy. The extra attack is taken at your highest attack bonus, but you take a -2 penalty to all attacks that round.
The penalty isn't that bad, because it's negated by the bonus to strength.

Spirit Lion Totem Barbarians lose Fast Movement as all Spirit Totem barbarians do, but you gain the Pounce (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#pounce) ability instead. Pounce is good, because it lets you full attack after a charge. That helps deal with the movement issues the martial classes have to deal with.
Spirit Totems are from Complete Champion (Page 46), so I'm afraid I can't give you a link.

Wolf Totem Barbarians (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) lose Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense, and Improved Uncanny Dodge. They gain Improved Trip at second level and Track at fifth.

Thug Fighters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) gain Bluff, Gather Information, Knowledge (local), and Sleight of Hand as class skills, and their skill point total gets raised to 4 + Int mod per level. They're only proficient with Light armor, but still have access to all of their weapons.
They don't gain a bonus feat at first level, but they can take Urban Tracking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#urbanTracking) as a fighter bonus feat.

Dungeon Crasher is from Dungeonscape, so I can't link it. You lose your second level bonus feat, but you gain a +2 competence bonus on saves and armor class against traps. This is in addition to a +5 bonus you have to breaking down doors, walls, or the like. If you bull rush someone into a wall or other solid object you deal 4d6 + twice your strength bonus damage.
At Fighter level 6 you deal 8d6 + three times your strength bonus, the bonus to saves and armor class increase to +5, and the strength bonus against doors, walls, and such increases to +10. This is in exchange for your sixth level bonus feat. Taking sixth levels of fighter isn't recommended by most people, and you would probably gain more from your Warblade levels.

Hit-and-Run Tactics is from Drow of the Underdark, so unfortunately I can't link you to this either. You trade away proficiency with Heavy Armor and Tower Shields, and you can't gain those back through multi-classing. In exchange, you gain a +2 to initiative checks and whenever you attack an opponent within 30 feet of you that is Flat-Footed, you add your dexterity modifier as a competence bonus to damage.
This can't be used with Thug Fighter.

Skilled City-Dweller (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) let's you trade a few skills around. It's a bit hard to find on that page, so you should just CTRL+F it.

[Urpriest]

Barbarian is a solid enough class to go to 20 in, though you can do better. I'd suggest looking over the guide White_Drake linked, and coming back when you have some more specific ideas.

[Gavinfoxx]

You can't combine thug and hit-and-run? Ack, I could've sworn I got rid of all the conflicts...

Anyway, for weapon, I would suggest Guisarme + Armor Spikes, rather than Greataxe. It gives you reach, trip, close in fighting options, and lots more tactical options for you...

[PinkysBrain]

The problem with most Barbarians is that rage just isn't that special ... if you multiclass out of them into something like Warblade you'll feel like Warblade first, and Barbarian second (+4 strength, woop woop).

There are two prestige classes which avoid this trap, Frenzied Berserker and Bear Warrior.

A Human Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Warblade 3/Frenzied Berserker 4 is a good jumping off point, I'd add another level of Warblade at 11 so you can take Iron Heart surge, after that 1 or 2 more levels of FB (depending on if you want inspire frenzy, best used with something like summons and not on party members) and then more warblade.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

oh god stay away from FB that thing is a trap.

[Svenrir]

is it possible to use maneuvers and stances while raging? Also if thats the case im more tactical.. which is sweet, and why should i avoid frenzied beserker it stacks with rage even though if i fail my will save i start attacking the party. I truly like to keep leveling up barbarian levels as a i level up because the rages become so much greater.

[Gavinfoxx]

Frenzied Berserker means that unless you and the party start taking a lot of crazy obscure metagaming choices, either in your tactics or the group or what you do when you wake up or whatever, you are a massive danger to the party.

"I go where there is no one and use up all of my frenzies first thing in the morning!" is a valid thing to do with FB. Metagaming and stupid from one point of view, but fantastically smart for another. After all, you are in FB for the power attack multiplier, not anything else like "Frenzy".

Also remember that the per-hit damage output in this game can get to the thousands... you don't need it to get into the thousands. Just steal some of the ideas from the places that talk about how to do that.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12842.20

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7200.0

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2502.0

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=486

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7165087

Also remember that unless you have movement modes like fly and burrow, a Frenzied Berserker is completely shut down by throwing marbles under their feet. And if you HAVE movement modes like fly and burrow, you and your party better work together to have multiple, layered contingencies, each one capable of stopping you cold, in case you flip out and start being about to attack the party.

FRENZIED BERSERKER IS NOT WORTH IT.

[Gavinfoxx]

Another thing... you do not need to level up in barbarian to get better at Raging!

The bonuses given by Raging are pretty small, even leveled raging, compared to other things you can get.

And if you WANT to improve Rage, you can do just fine with two levels of Barbarian. Just take Reckless Rage, Extend Rage, Intimidating Rage, Extra Rage, etc. etc.

[Daftendirekt]

Honestly, I pretty much take (read: dip) barbarian for pounce and maybe the free Improved Trip from wolf totem. Rage (or whirling frenzy) is just a bonus.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The biggest thing about FB is that if you go that route, boosting your will save becomes priority 1, from character creation on.

... and maybe don't get pounce. You'll roll a one eventually, and your rogue/ other beatstick will suddenly be very glad you can only attack once if you have to move more than five feet.

[Gavinfoxx]

The main problem I have is that Frenzied Berserker limits tactical variability and the options you as a player can take. I never, ever, ever want class features to TAKE AWAY options or tactical choices; they should only GIVE YOU MORE things to do!

[Kelb_Panthera]

The main problem I have is that Frenzied Berserker limits tactical variability and the options you as a player can take. I never, ever, ever want class features to TAKE AWAY options or tactical choices; they should only GIVE YOU MORE things to do!

How much FB limits your tactical options is up to you DM's interpretation of "fighting to the best of your ability." The only option that's strictly off the table is retreat.

[Gavinfoxx]

That's... not just dependent on the DM. There's also the fact that your character is required to save or do certain things in a Frenzy, that one of the main ways to not kill your party is to intentionally limit your character's mobility options, that if you take injury you might frenzy, that you can't balance while in a Frenzy, etc. etc. etc.

It's a badly designed, stupid mechanic. If you want damage, just use shock trooper and some charge damage multipliers. Sheesh.

[PinkysBrain]

Iron Heart Surge ...

[BShammie]

is it possible to use maneuvers and stances while raging?

While I'm not familiar with the maneuvers in Tome of Battle, I know that some of them require skill checks. So long as that skill isn't barred while the barbarian is raging you should be allowed to use them. Here is what the SRD says is blocked:

While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm#rage)
Whirling Frenzy has identical bans. You'll have to ask someone else if maneuvers count as "...any abilities that require patience or concentration..."
This may require DM adjudication as the Tome of Battle may not cover it.


... and why should i avoid frenzied beserker it stacks with rage even though if i fail my will save i start attacking the party.
You should avoid Frenzy, because you'll make your allies go squish-squish.


I truly like to keep leveling up barbarian levels as a i level up because the rages become so much greater.
Have you checked out the Barbarian guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105525) that was linked by White Drake? It should help you.

[Talionis]

I am a big fan of Rune Scarred Barbarian... It gives you a little casting without casting. It also gives you the ability to cast Anti-magic field, which is fun. That might be fun for the later levels.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That's... not just dependent on the DM. There's also the fact that your character is required to save or do certain things in a Frenzy, that one of the main ways to not kill your party is to intentionally limit your character's mobility options, that if you take injury you might frenzy, that you can't balance while in a Frenzy, etc. etc. etc.

It's a badly designed, stupid mechanic. If you want damage, just use shock trooper and some charge damage multipliers. Sheesh.

I just re-read frenzy to be absolutely sure, it doesn't limit tactical choices except for two: no turtling up with full-defense/ expertise, which is a bad tactical decision for a berserker anyway; and no retreat. As for the intentionally limiting mobility: okay yeah, that is a bit of a pain. It's less of a pain than killing an ally though. Besides, there are very few ways to out-damage a FB, who can take shock-trooper too, by the way. Imho you shouldn't have to be an uber-charger unless that's what you want. Is it really that big of a deal if it takes two rounds to kill the enemy instead of one?

[Gavinfoxx]

Also, you can't balance when Frenzying (not Whirling Frenzy, FB Frenzy).

Also, there is the bit about where control is taken away from your character...

[Kelb_Panthera]

Also, you can't balance when Frenzying (not Whirling Frenzy, FB Frenzy).

Also, there is the bit about where control is taken away from your character...

Marbles are no big deal. Jump over them. Grease is more problematic at least until/ unless you can fly. Certain things suggest that sometimes-flying should be availabe by about lvl 5, and at-will flight should be available at 10.

As for "losing control" see my previous comments.

FB doesn't have to be a bad thing. It has the potential to be problematic, and that is getting blown way out of proportion.

[Andvare]

Also, you can't balance when Frenzying (not Whirling Frenzy, FB Frenzy).

Also, there is the bit about where control is taken away from your character...

Was this before an errata somewhere?


While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride)

Dunno about FB frenzy though, AFB ATM, but the whirling frenzy says nothing about skill use, except for this:


Whirling frenzy is otherwise identical to the standard barbarian rage in all other ways.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Was this before an errata somewhere?



Dunno about FB frenzy though, AFB ATM, but the whirling frenzy says nothing about skill use, except for this:

He was saying you can't use the balance skill while in a berserker frenzy, not a whirling frenzy; which is true. As you quoted whirling frenzy has the exact same skill restrictions as rage.

[Andvare]

He was saying you can't use the balance skill while in a berserker frenzy, not a whirling frenzy; which is true. As you quoted whirling frenzy has the exact same skill restrictions as rage.

So he did.
Somehow I read that as rage in general.

:smallredface: