Explain some math to me. [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

The Redwolf

2012-07-14, 01:21 PM

A good tripper can lock down enemies, preventing them from moving or using their turns effectively.

Power Attack by itself isn't extremely special. It's when you start charging with Pounce with a two-handed weapon with the Leap Attack and Shock Trooper feats. Then, the Ubercharger is born.

As he said tripping can be great for messing up enemies. You mentioned martial arts, does that mean your character is a monk? If so and you're using Pathfinder they are able to use maneuvers with flurry so he could potentially get near a large group of enemies and trip all or many of them opening up opportunities for the rest of the party or protecting them. Power attack is good if you're making a single attack and have a high bonus to your to hit from BAB or whatever, if you're using a two handed weapon it gives you double which is great. If you're using Pathfinder it's less useful than it was in 3.5 because Pathfinder limits how much you can use it. If it's 3.5 you can use power attack in conjunction with cleave to finish weaker enemies and keep on hitting, in Pathfinder you can do the same thing with the goal of getting more hp off of multiple enemies since cleave just requires a successful hit. For a monk power attack isn't that good of an idea but trip is, for a fighter or barbarian it's the other way around.

Quietus

2012-07-14, 01:21 PM

Trip is definitely stronger in the early levels, before everything you fight starts being large size or larger. The key part of trip is in keeping a foe immobile, so that they can't reach the squishy parts of your group, and in the penalties for the foe being prone. Improved Trip ensures that if you get your trip score decent enough, you don't necessarily lose the attack you'd normally get, and you're more likely to hit with it to boot. Touch attacks are kind of ridiculously easy to make.

Power attack - it's actually less useful in the early levels. Without some way of boosting damage at higher levels, you wont' be able to keep up with monsters swinging 30+ strength. Power attack allows you to even the odds a bit, and while it's often paired with something to mitigate the attack penalty - shock trooper is a favorite - it's still possible to make use of it in a general combat by figuring out roughly how much you need to roll to hit, what you're comfortable with, and then power attacking as much as you can afford. This works particularly well with two handed weapons for the 2:1 returns on damage.

The Redwolf

2012-07-14, 01:22 PM

Oh, you said martial, not martial arts, I'll assume not a monk then.

sonofzeal

2012-07-14, 01:26 PM

Okay, so one of my players who is rather new to playing martial characters has raised some points, and I am at a loss to refute them at this point.

So, playground, you're always saying these are good options, so justify them.

What makes Trip good? Power Attack?

Player's arguments:

Trip: ability checks are difficult to make good, opponent chooses better ability, having to hit and then roll an ability check increases chance for failure.

Power Attack: only useful at lower levels, better to take Weapon Focus to hit more often.
Trip: Ability checks are hard to make good... but that just means there's few effective counters for that comparatively massive +4 from the feat itself. And touch attacks are usually trivial to land. If you're fighting humanoids, a focussed Tripper can almost guarantee success, and even a dabbler can get a high success rate. And the ability to trigger it on AoOs to halt their movement and effectively cancel the rest of their turn? Priceless. Especially when you're trying to protect the squishies behind you.

Power Attack: Honestly, this feat often gets overrated by the board at large. It's... decent. Especially when fighting against hefty DR, when a single massive hit is worth a lot more than several smaller ones. But it only really shines once you start getting x3 or x4 ratios (Leap Attack, Frenzied Berserker), or pulling out of AC instead of Attack Bonus (Shocktrooper)... or if you can get a Touch Attack (Wraithstrike, Impaling weapon, Emerald Razor, Find the Gap). IMO, it's a generally average feat that happens to synergize extremely well with a number of other options, rather than necessarily being badass all on its own like Improved Trip is.

JellyPooga

2012-07-14, 01:26 PM

Power Attack is really only useful at mid-high levels when to hit bonuses are way outstripping AC. At low levels, a reliable attack bonus is better than the extra damage because a greatsword wielding combatant will kill 90% of mooks without even having to roll damage. As you go up in levels, AC flattens out at about the 20-25 range, whilst Attack bonuses start approaching the stratosphere and Hit Points are much higher.

For Example: A Fighter in Scale Mail wielding a Greatsword. Str: 16, Dex: 14, Con: 14

1st level: +4 to hit, AC: 16, Damage: 2d6+4, HP: 12
- Fighting against himself, he needs a 12 to hit and 8+ on damage to disable/kill

5th level: +9 to hit (assuming +1 magical weapon), AC: 19 (assuming Full Plate), Damage: 2d6+5, HP: (approx) 42
- Fighting against himself, he now only needs 10 to hit, but has to hit at least 3 times to disable or kill, probably more like 4 or 5.

With Power Attack, the 5th level guy can have the same chance of hitting, but reduce the number of hits he needs to kill to 2 (if he rolls well) or 3 on average rolls.

snoopy13a

2012-07-14, 01:28 PM

Trip also works to help defend your party-mates. If you carry a reach weapon with the requisite feats, you can trip melee NPCs so they don't attack your wizard friend.

grarrrg

2012-07-14, 01:30 PM

He would argue that the failure rate of trip makes it a waste of actions, that you only might trip the opponent, otherwise you wasted that action.

A successful Trip makes the victim Prone. Being prone gives them -4 to-hit with their Melee attacks, and -4 AC when being hit by Melee attacks. While Prone they can Stand up as a Move action that provokes an AoO. Or they can use a Move action to Move five feet and also provoke an AoO.

Being Prone is NOT a happy time.

And just for funsies, the Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415)

JellyPooga

2012-07-14, 01:34 PM

The biggest effect of Trip, to my mind, is when it's used defensively. A readied action to Trip someone that enters an adjacent square, if successful, gives a 4 point swing in your favour if he carries out his attack...the same effective modifier as Total Defence, plus he's now on the floor. Alternatively, he forgoes his attack to stand up (provoking AoO) or crawls away like the worm he is!

Add Improved Trip and this sterling defence gets the added bonus of a free attack too, so you don't miss out on your own offence!

Improved Trip becomes situationally less useful as level increases because you're coming up against more exotic creatures with flight, reach and much higher strength modifiers than you can possibly match, but in lower level play Tripping can be truly awesome.

sonofzeal

2012-07-14, 01:34 PM

Power Attack is really only useful at mid-high levels when to hit bonuses are way outstripping AC.
Actually, I've found this is rarely the case. The PC's AC keeps rough pace with monster attack bonuses until lvl 15, when it actually starts scaling faster. And without friendly buffs (which shouldn't be presumed for these sorts of comparisons), your average full-BAB melee sort isn't outpacing monster ACs by much of anything either. They catch up enough that you're hitting on fairly low rolls, but if you're swinging against regular AC, most will suffer a significant chance of wiffing by Power Attacking for half. And that's on their first attack; reduced returns on iteratives means it just gets worse from there.

Handy dandy chart:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/sonofzeal/ACbyLevel.png

"Good" AC is 75% wiff rate for non-dragon monsters, "Average" is 50% wiff rate, "Poor" is 25% wiff rate. Monster attack bonuses are taken from MM1, but only include the highest if there's iteratives, and entirely discards enemies that clearly aren't intended to be melee threats.

eggs

2012-07-14, 01:41 PM

Power Attack:
By mid-levels, attack bonus trivially exceeds enemy AC on the first attack. For standard action attacks, it's a straight damage boost (at level 20, a 28 strength Warrior with a +5 weapon has +34 to attack; the average AC is around 30; Power Attacking for 6 on standard action attack is a free +12 damage; more bonuses from builds, buffs or tactical play only push it higher). On full attacks, the benefits aren't quite so pronounced without a few specific build options.

But that said, there are specific build options that basically ignore power attack's penalties - Shock Trooper, Ice Axe, Wraithstrike, Scimitar of Sand, Flame Blade, etc. basically allow a character to make a 20-point power attack on a full attack and turn the whole thing into a straight damage boost.

Improved Trip:
First off, trip isn't super reliable. Big animals and monsters are hard to trip. Oozes and swarms don't make sense to trip. Numerically, it's not always reliable (but a specialist with invested resources will often have a decent chance of winning even the implausible trips).

But the advantage is that tripping is more useful than other attack actions. By tripping an enemy, a Fighter takes away the enemy's actions. Unless the Fighter was going to 1-hit kill the target, that's an advantage - it's one charge less that the Wizard has to survive, one full attack less that the Rogue has to endure, etc. And if the trip is successful, the fighter gets to deal more damage than he would otherwise (+4 attack is nice).

Also, it lets a Fighter in a full attack turn its low attack-bonus iteratives into touch attacks that do something a bit more useful than glancing off the other guy's armor.

EDIT:
My source on average armor classes looks... off. Still, make the Fighter numbers less unreasonably low by about 5 points, and it stands.

sonofzeal

2012-07-14, 01:51 PM

Power Attack:
By mid-levels, attack bonus trivially exceeds enemy AC on the first attack. For standard action attacks, it's a straight damage boost (at level 20, a 28 strength Warrior with a +5 weapon has +34 to attack; the average AC is around 30
See my above post. Also, a simple check through the MM1 (one of the weakest MMs) is enough to falsify this: the average non-dragon AC at CR 20 is 37, not 30. That's high enough to render your conclusions invalid. And most characters should try to have methods of reliably full-attacking far before that point (and there's plenty of them, some attainable with Fighter Bonus Feats), so I wouldn't talk like standard action attacks are the norm... except on Martial Adepts, but they work a little differently anyway.

JellyPooga

2012-07-14, 02:00 PM

ericgrau

2012-07-14, 02:03 PM

Trip: ability checks are difficult to make good, opponent chooses better ability, having to hit and then roll an ability check increases chance for failure.

You also get a +4, possibly another +5 if you get a potion of enlarge person and your foe isn't large. It isn't spectacular but I looked at a few high level large/huge monsters and it does keep up. Most importantly, you get a free attack with improved trip so you get the best of both worlds. As long as you focused heavily enough on trip to handle large/huge foes and the foe isn't over-CRed so your trip still has a chance of succeeding. Against the huge sized BBEG maybe I wouldn't trip even if I built my character heavily for it (got him large, high strength, etc.).

Power Attack: only useful at lower levels, better to take Weapon Focus to hit more often.
Actually true if you don't get shock trooper, etc. As base damage per hit goes up more hits become more valuable than more damage. The attack penalty on high level power attack causes you to lose damage, and at mid levels the two cancel each other out for little or no gain. The peak is at low levels for an average of 3 extra damage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87339) (after you average in misses). Otherwise weapon focus and even weapon specialization are better. Shock troopers or other tricks to negate the attack roll penalty or to get more per -1 are essential are essential in high optimization builds for this reason. Sometimes it's also useful against foes with abysmal AC or if you stack 7 different attack roll buffs from 2-3 different party casters; that's the real reason to take the feat in core rather than to blindly take it all the time.

Spuddles

2012-07-14, 02:04 PM

In my experience, trip is king of the melee builds. If you combine it with the knockdown feat it's just unfair.

While tripping may lead to turns where you do nothing, the chance to remove enemy actions and control the battlefield is entirely worth it. And as eggs says, it really shines on iteratives or if you have extra attacks. It's like spamming a save or suck.

It also scales pretty alright. Large quadreped are problematic, but when you can stack enlarge spell (or better yet- augmented expansion), rage, str boosting items, and the feat, you can easily be knocking down giants.

Again, in purely my gaming experience, power attack is an extremely reliable way to scale damage with level, especially against high HP low AC monsters, like giants. Usually attack bonuses from flanking, charging, or striking prone targets get rolled into power attack damage. It's very useful. It gets really nasty when you can resolve attacks as touch attacks, of course.

For most core melee options, damage output isn't directly related to any class feature. Unless you want to rely on weapon specialization, smiting, favored enemies, or rage, the only guaranteed damage is coming from converting BAB with power attack.

sonofzeal

2012-07-14, 02:07 PM

RE: Power Attack

Just some demonic (http://http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#)examples;

Dretch - CR: 2, AC: 16
Babau - CR: 6, AC: 19
Hezrou - CR: 11, AC: 23
Nalfeshee - CR: 14, AC: 27

Compared to Fighter with Base Str: 16 (pump Str every 4th level) at appropriate challenge rating;

vs. Dretch: 11 needed to hit
vs. Babau: 10 needed to hit
vs. Hezrou: 8 needed to hit
vs. Nalfeshee: 9 needed to hit

This is without any equipment bonuses, which are an assumed part of the CR of these demons. Add in an appropriate Belt of Giant Strength, Magic Sword, etc. and the required d20 roll needed to hit starts plummeting.

vs. Dretch: MW Sword, 10 needed
vs. Babau: +1 Sword, +2 Belt of GS, 8 needed to hit
vs. Hezrou: +2 Sword, +2 Belt of GS, 5 needed to hit
vs. Nalfeshee: +3 Sword, +4 Belt of GS, 4 needed to hit

I don't think I'm being too generous with the numbers here, regarding WBL.

Sure, the extra damage you can get from Power Attack isn't amazing without shenanigans, but it's something to do with all that extra attack bonus that's pretty much just going to waste.
It's certainly something. But that's a gear layout tailored for attack bonus (usually special properties are worth more than straight enhancements, and while Belt of GS is decent it's hardly ubiquitous when Belt of Battle exists)... and even tailoring for it, you're not getting into auto-hit territory for even your first attack.

Now, sometimes you are only making one attack, sometimes you're facing many weak opponents, and sometimes there's DR you can't overcome. But I still think you're being over-optimistic about the effectiveness of Power Attack. Even favourable assumptions only make it a reasonable tactical choice, rather than an absolute necessity.

For most core melee options, damage output isn't directly related to any class feature. Unless you want to rely on weapon specialization, smiting, favored enemies, or rage, the only guaranteed damage is coming from converting BAB with power attack.
...I love how you follow the bolded sentence with what amounts to a counterexample for every core full-bab class. Even for the 3/4 BABers, you've got Unarmed Strike Progression, Sneak Attack, Inspire Courage, and Bull's Strength. Just about every class in the game has some way of boosting damage; it may not be great, and it may not be all the time, but you'd be hard-pressed to find any class without. Healer, maybe, but even then you've got some half-decent Companions at lvl 8 and beyond.

Randomguy

2012-07-14, 02:10 PM

See my above post. Also, a simple check through the MM1 (one of the weakest MMs) is enough to falsify this: the average non-dragon AC at CR 20 is 37. That's high enough to render your conclusions invalid.

Except that most level 20 melee characters have a strength that's quite a bit higher than 28. It's not that tough to get 36 strength, which would be +38 to hit, so you can still power attack and have a good chance to hit.

One (low math) way to explain how power attack is good: At level 20 (for example), the medium BAB characters normally have a decent chance to hit. So a full BAB character can power attack for 5 points, and do 10 more damage, and still have a decent chance to hit.

As for trip, the way it can be really powerful is: You trip the opponent, opponent stands up and provokes an attack an opportunity, you trip with that attack, and the opponent is on the ground again. And if you make a trip attempt, then with improved trip you get an attack in anyway (and they take a penalty to AC from being prone), so you aren't trading actions, you're just winning them.
Also, it's easier to get bonuses to succeed on trip checks than it is to resist them.

lsfreak

2012-07-14, 02:12 PM

The two psynergize fairly well, too. Since touch attacks are (generally) easy to make, you can take a -4 to your attacks with PA, trip, and then make your followup attacks. If things go as planned (and they're likely to, if you're focusing on tripping), you basically get a "free" +8 damage to your attacks, since the -4 AC for being prone counters the -4 you took for power attacking.

The Knockdown feat can be added and your routine is instead attack -> trip (from knockdown) -> followup attack (from tripping with improved trip).

Tripping is certainly most useful in a humanoid-centered campaign, and power attack does generally need something to back it up (trips, touch attacks, shocktrooper, leap attack). That said, it also comes down to... what else is there for melee? There are a limited number of ways to play an effective melee fighter, and tripping and PA are two of the most straightfoward and effective ones.

Spuddles

2012-07-14, 02:12 PM

It's certainly something. But that's a gear layout tailored for attack bonus (usually special properties are worth more than straight enhancements, and while Belt of GS is decent it's hardly ubiquitous when Belt of Battle exists)... and even tailoring for it, you're not getting into auto-hit territory for even your first attack.

Now, sometimes you are only making one attack, sometimes you're facing many weak opponents, and sometimes there's DR you can't overcome. But I still think you're being over-optimistic about the effectiveness of Power Attack. Even favourable assumptions only make it a reasonable tactical choice, rather than an absolute necessity.

I think that's a really vanilla item layout and isn't particularly tailored for anything. Stacking weapon enhancements is rarely worth it because reliably hitting is worth way more. And given that we have the power attack feat, if we're hitting too frequently, we roll that to hit into more reliable damage.

Other than impacting, what weapon enhancements are worthwhile?

JellyPooga

2012-07-14, 02:13 PM

Even favourable assumptions only make it a reasonable tactical choice, rather than an absolute necessity.

I totally agree. I'm not saying it's the be-all-and-end-all of melee goodness, just that it's a viable option.

sonofzeal

2012-07-14, 02:16 PM

Except that most level 20 melee characters have a strength that's quite a bit higher than 28. It's not that tough to get 36 strength, which would be +38 to hit, so you can still power attack and have a good chance to hit.
Counterpoint:

I was in a lvl 15 game on these boards not too long ago. We were a bunch of Kordians, so pretty much everyone in the party was intended to punch face at some point.

At lvl 15, the highest unbuffed attack bonus in the entire party was +21.

This is on these boards, with a fairly high optimization threshhold. I submit to you that your +38 is just a little over-optimistic.

eggs

2012-07-14, 02:19 PM

See my above post. Also, a simple check through the MM1 (one of the weakest MMs) is enough to falsify this: the average non-dragon AC at CR 20 is 37, not 30. That's high enough to render your conclusions invalid. Yeah, I noticed that. But that just means the sandbaggy warrior needs to be swapped out for a class that a player would actually use - Fighters, Barbarians and Paladins would all spike the attack bonus by 4 or more, and a more typical high-strength prioritization would push it up by 3-5. So the same situation, but with a less trivial spin.

And most characters should try to have methods of reliably full-attacking far before that point (and there's plenty of them, some attainable with Fighter Bonus Feats), so I wouldn't talk like standard action attacks are the norm... except on Martial Adepts, but they work a little differently anyway.
Once players start dumpster diving for full attacks, I don't expect them to willingly ignore the ways of making those attacks land.

sonofzeal

2012-07-14, 02:31 PM

Yeah, I noticed that. But that just means the sandbaggy warrior needs to be swapped out for a class that a player would actually use - Fighters, Barbarians and Paladins would all spike the attack bonus by 4 or more, and a more typical high-strength prioritization would push it up by 3-5. So the same situation, but with a less trivial spin.

Once players start dumpster diving for full attacks, I don't expect them to willingly ignore the ways of making those attacks land.
My experience has been that, short of getting Touch Attacks, there really aren't that many ways of boosting attack bonus. And nearly all of them are situation. In actual practice (see above, and much more so at lower levels), attack bonuses tend not to be all that high. If Power Attack only becomes all that effective somewhere past lvl 15, and common board wisdom is that most games are played in the 5-12 range, then I submit to you that maybe Power Attack isn't all that great. Reasonable on certain builds, sure, but hardly a universal necessity.

Spuddles

2012-07-14, 02:42 PM

...I love how you follow the bolded sentence with what amounts to a counterexample for every core full-bab class. Even for the 3/4 BABers, you've got Unarmed Strike Progression, Sneak Attack, Inspire Courage, and Bull's Strength. Just about every class in the game has some way of boosting damage; it may not be great, and it may not be all the time, but you'd be hard-pressed to find any class without. Healer, maybe, but even then you've got some half-decent Companions at lvl 8 and beyond.

:smallredface:

I worded that poorly. You would agree that the damage that comes from the class features I listed (with exception for rage maybe) scale extremely poorly, yes? Weapon spec is 1 extra damage every 5 levels. Favored enemy is circumstantial. Smite evil scales, but you get extremely few of them.

Inspire courage scales at 1 damage every 5 levels. Bull str is extremely front loaded. Get 3 damage , no more with more levels.

I am playing through the ToEE computer game right now, which fiathfully follows core RAW, and the lack of damage scaling on martial characters but inflating to hit is very noticeable. Converting WBL into damage is kind of the only thing available, outside power attack.

By the way, what weapon enchants do you prefer? Common wisdom is stack those then have cleric or wizard put up a GMW, which is handy. Elemental enchants often don't do much vs. outsiders, which tend to be pretty common mid to high level adversaries. I like keen and impacting.

sonofzeal

2012-07-14, 02:56 PM

:smallredface:

I worded that poorly. You would agree that the damage that comes from the class features I listed (with exception for rage maybe) scale extremely poorly, yes? Weapon spec is 1 extra damage every 5 levels. Favored enemy is circumstantial. Smite evil scales, but you get extremely few of them.

Inspire courage scales at 1 damage every 5 levels. Bull str is extremely front loaded. Get 3 damage , no more with more levels.

I am playing through the ToEE computer game right now, which fiathfully follows core RAW, and the lack of damage scaling on martial characters but inflating to hit is very noticeable. Converting WBL into damage is kind of the only thing available, outside power attack.
You definitely have a point. Honestly, damage just doesn't scale well enough, with or without Power Attack. Iteratives help, but they miss even without significant PA. I play bruisers by preference, and I usually have to tailor the build significantly to get reasonable damage. And, honestly, that often ends up being PA + touch attack. I'm in one campaign controlling all four characters, and we've got... let's see... one with Emerald Razor, one with Deep Impact, and one with Impaling weapons. And the mage, who doesn't care.

There's other ways though. I also like getting a bunch of attacks augmented by Maneuvers, or Skirmish, or Sneak Attack. Or stacking Strength boosts through Barbarian -> Berserker (Deities and Demigods). Or Collision weapons. Or stacking size increases with Strongarm Bracers and Enlarge Person.

There's ways and there's ways. Power Attack is involved in a few of them, but rarely in and of itself. I don't think it's bad, just not quite as OP as common board wisdom seems to claim. And it's mostly just the claim that AC doesn't scale that bugs me. It does. I've run the numbers, generated spiffy graphs, traced sunwise circles under the full moon, you name it. AC vs AB does not start becoming wonky until pretty darn close to epic.

As long as you're cool with that, we're on the same page. :)

(edit)

By the way, what weapon enchants do you prefer? Common wisdom is stack those then have cleric or wizard put up a GMW, which is handy. Elemental enchants often don't do much vs. outsiders, which tend to be pretty common mid to high level adversaries. I like keen and impacting.
Collision's a nice one, since it's multiplied on a hit and doesn't worry about resistances. Impaling is my personal favorite though. And Magebane is usually reliable, for both attack bonus and damage.

But honestly, I find the pricing for weapon enchants to be generally prohibitive. I've had lvl 10+ characters wandering around with a simple +1 weapon, or just a masterwork one, without even a friendly Cleric to GMW it. My general philosophy is that offence comes from class levels and defence from wealth, so even my bruisers tend to put a low priority on those 18k gp sparkly swords of pwnitude. They get them, but only about 25% of my wealth goes to offence, and usually Strength boosters and Belts of Battle come first.

Eldariel

2012-07-14, 03:02 PM

Power Attack becomes good when you have combat modifiers going your favor. For instance, Trip an opponent; that's -4 to AC. Charge; +2 to hit. High ground; +1 to hit (if you have means of flight with Good maneuverability, this should be all the time). Flank; +2 to hit. All of these can fairly often be sunk into Power Attack for average damage gain, and in a party they tend to be more or less trivial to setup.

This is, of course, the naked Power Attack. It's pretty much always worth it on dual wielders. In Core you'd take Weapon Focus too, granted (since your feats aren't really in high demand), but you would want Power Attack and Improved Trip first. And you'd go Barbarian since the flat Strength-bonus synergises incredibly well with the Strength-check required for Improved Trip.

It's worth noting that a level 20 Core Barbarian has a higher Strength-score than anything in the MM (you can hit 48 or so as a Human without Polymorphs IIRC) so provided the size-issue is taken care of (Large is trivial with Enlarge Person but anything further requires Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object (which can be permanent, granted, but with downsides) or similars), you are advantaged in Trips (+4 from the feat is equal to one size category in and of itself so a level 20 Barb literally has an advantage against everything he can Trip outside other Barbs and custom monsters).

Out of Core, I'm sure everybody knows how strong PA gets with the synergistic options.

lsfreak

2012-07-14, 03:22 PM

I am playing through the ToEE computer game right now, which fiathfully follows core RAW, and the lack of damage scaling on martial characters but inflating to hit is very noticeable. Converting WBL into damage is kind of the only thing available, outside power attack.
In Core, certainly. Outside of Core, there seem to me to be three mains ways of boosting damage: power attack + psynergies, TWF with bonus damage (sneak attack, skirmish pouncers or Stormguard Warrior), and AoO retaliation builds (which can be combined with PA or TWF to different effects). Well, and unarmed boosting up to crazy levels.

By the way, what weapon enchants do you prefer? Common wisdom is stack those then have cleric or wizard put up a GMW, which is handy. Elemental enchants often don't do much vs. outsiders, which tend to be pretty common mid to high level adversaries. I like keen and impacting.
My weapons sit at +1 until I can comfortably afford collision. Beyond that, not usually much unless it's a specific build (AC-tanked crit-fishing charger with Robilar's Gambit wants a bodyfeeder weapon, for example, to stay alive).

Curmudgeon

2012-07-14, 03:23 PM

Trip: Ability checks are hard to make good... but that just means there's few effective counters for that comparatively massive +4 from the feat itself. And touch attacks are usually trivial to land. If you're fighting humanoids, a focussed Tripper can almost guarantee success, and even a dabbler can get a high success rate.
Don't overlook the one effective counter: a good Balance check (see Complete Adventurer on page 97). With 10+ ranks in Balance you can use a skill check instead of an unaugmented Strength or Dexterity check to resist being tripped. Because skill ranks can go up +1 per level for skillful characters they'll easily outstrip trip bonuses; the tripper would need +2 STR every level just to keep pace. Typically my Rogue character is the guy who kills enemies as soon as they whip out their spiked chains, because a tripper is otherwise very effective.

Gavinfoxx

2012-07-14, 03:25 PM

So... Pathfinder, 3.5e, or 3.PF (if so, what takes precedence?)?

Spuddles

2012-07-14, 03:26 PM

There's ways and there's ways. Power Attack is involved in a few of them, but rarely in and of itself. I don't think it's bad, just not quite as OP as common board wisdom seems to claim. And it's mostly just the claim that AC doesn't scale that bugs me. It does. I've run the numbers, generated spiffy graphs, traced sunwise circles under the full moon, you name it. AC vs AB does not start becoming wonky until pretty darn close to epic.

As long as you're cool with that, we're on the same page. :)

If I have a build with close to full BAB, I always pick up power attack because compared to other options for damage, I've always found it really reliable. Is it stupendous? No, not with out touch attacks or shock trooper. But in my opinion, it's better than investing 4 levels in fighter to pick up weapon spec, or relying on iteratives. I prefer whirling frenzy, haste, flurry of blows, snap kick, natural attacks or other "-2 at at highest BAB" if I go full attack oriented. And as Eldariel says, it works very very well with situational modifiers. Besides the handful he mentioned, slow, haste, entangle, grapple, blind, and stun all increase your chance to hit, which nicely turn into damage if you have power attack.

I am a pretty close follower of your posts on the gaming board (bit of a fan), and I absolutely agree with you on your analysis of AC scaling. Your analyses match my gaming experience pretty closely.

(edit)

Collision's a nice one, since it's multiplied on a hit and doesn't worry about resistances. Impaling is my personal favorite though. And Magebane is usually reliable, for both attack bonus and damage.

But honestly, I find the pricing for weapon enchants to be generally prohibitive. I've had lvl 10+ characters wandering around with a simple +1 weapon, or just a masterwork one, without even a friendly Cleric to GMW it. My general philosophy is that offence comes from class levels and defence from wealth, so even my bruisers tend to put a low priority on those 18k gp sparkly swords of pwnitude. They get them, but only about 25% of my wealth goes to offence, and usually Strength boosters and Belts of Battle come first.

Is impaling from BoVD, or am I thinking of fleshgrinding?

I play with a DM that's pretty... restrictive on the loot, so my philosophy is everything comes from class levels, if you want to be good at it. We're not that constrained by WBL, but outside of vanilla equipment like +3 greataxes, vest of resistances, or ring of protections, we don't really get to see it. Which, granted, not having free rein of WBL changes a lot and is pretty house-ruley. But because we have unoptimized weapons that are worth much more than our level suggests we should have, martial characters get more mileage out of power attack than they would otherwise.

Wonton

2012-07-14, 03:34 PM

Power Attack: only useful at lower levels, better to take Weapon Focus to hit more often.

I've actually thought about the math of this somewhat. I'm really bad at explaining though, so hopefully these examples can get my point across. If people are not clear, I could go further in-depth.

Let's start off with two far-out cases to get the idea of attack roll/damage roll trading our heads.

Case 1: The enemy's AC is so high that you would normally need a 17 on the d20 to hit.

Case 2: The enemy's AC is so low that you would normally only need a 3 on the d20 to hit.

Note: Your average damage per attack is calculated as p*d, where p is your probability of hitting, and d is your average damage if you do hit. I think it's fairly obvious that if Fighter 1 has a 50% chance of hitting but deals 10 damage on hit and Fighter 2 has a 25% chance to hit but deals 20 damage on hit, they deal the same average damage in a turn.

Now, let's say we use Power Attack for a -2/+2. In case 1, you're reducing your chances to hit from 4 numbers to 2 numbers - by half. So unless that +2 to damage nets you a 100% increase in damage or more (unlikely, unless you're doing 1d6-2 or something), it's not worth it. In case 2, you're reducing your chance to hit from 18 numbers to 16 numbers - 11%. So you only need to increase your damage by 12.5% or more - so unless your unmodified attack already does 16 or more damage, that 2 damage increase is worth it.

So that's the general idea - if your chances to hit are high, a small decrease in attack accuracy won't make as a big a difference as the increase in damage. If your chances to hit are low, a small increase in damage won't make up for the lost attack accuracy.

Obviously, if you start getting x2 modifiers (like PF Power Attack and Deadly Aim), or x3 or x4, the cases start becoming more and more advantageous and I could go into that, but I've typed enough for now I think. :P

deuxhero

2012-07-14, 03:35 PM

while Belt of GS is decent it's hardly ubiquitous when Belt of Battle exists).

Given BoB is MIC, the MIC saying you can put Giant's Strength property on a BoB for just the cost of the BoB and Belt of Giant's Strength comes into play.

Eldariel

2012-07-14, 03:54 PM

I've actually thought about the math of this somewhat. I'm really bad at explaining though, so hopefully these examples can get my point across. If people are not clear, I could go further in-depth.

Let's start off with two far-out cases to get the idea of attack roll/damage roll trading our heads.

Case 1: The enemy's AC is so high that you would normally need a 17 on the d20 to hit.

Case 2: The enemy's AC is so low that you would normally only need a 3 on the d20 to hit.

Note: Your average damage per attack is calculated as p*d, where p is your probability of hitting, and d is your average damage if you do hit. I think it's fairly obvious that if Fighter 1 has a 50% chance of hitting but deals 10 damage on hit and Fighter 2 has a 25% chance to hit but deals 20 damage on hit, they deal the same average damage in a turn.

Now, let's say we use Power Attack for a -2/+2. In case 1, you're reducing your chances to hit from 4 numbers to 2 numbers - by half. So unless that +2 to damage nets you a 100% increase in damage or more (unlikely, unless you're doing 1d6-2 or something), it's not worth it. In case 2, you're reducing your chance to hit from 18 numbers to 16 numbers - 11%. So you only need to increase your damage by 12.5% or more - so unless your unmodified attack already does 16 or more damage, that 2 damage increase is worth it.

So that's the general idea - if your chances to hit are high, a small decrease in attack accuracy won't make as a big a difference as the increase in damage. If your chances to hit are low, a small increase in damage won't make up for the lost attack accuracy.

Obviously, if you start getting x2 modifiers (like PF Power Attack and Deadly Aim), or x3 or x4, the cases start becoming more and more advantageous and I could go into that, but I've typed enough for now I think. :P

Nobody really argues in favor of one-handed PA outside situations where you already hit on 1 or only on 20 anyways; it's two-handed PA that's perceived as generally worth it. Remember that in cases where you only hit on extremely high rolls anyways, you can generally afford to Power Attack for your whole BAB, which tends to be worth it.

eggs

2012-07-14, 04:09 PM

My experience has been that, short of getting Touch Attacks, there really aren't that many ways of boosting attack bonus. And nearly all of them are situation. In actual practice (see above, and much more so at lower levels), attack bonuses tend not to be all that high. If Power Attack only becomes all that effective somewhere past lvl 15, and common board wisdom is that most games are played in the 5-12 range, then I submit to you that maybe Power Attack isn't all that great. Reasonable on certain builds, sure, but hardly a universal necessity.
I wouldn't argue that it's a universal necessity or that it's overhyped, but it's still one of the better investments for damage output.

The Shock Trooper feat line is no longer than TWF or Point Blank/Precise/Rapid Shot combinations, but it comes with a completely absurd damage increase.

Stick PA on a character with Wraithstrike, and it's free damage. Or on a buff-stacker who can't help but hit anyway (typically Clerics, but other gishes and Bards can manage it; melee Incarnates often have to use PA to be noticed at all).

Throw it in with some damage multipliers like Battle Jump, Rhino's Rush or mounted combat, and its returns become meaningful even without without a 95% hit chance.

And it opens quite a few powerful options as well - things like Awesome Smite, Knockback, Hellreaver, Divine Might, etc.

So while I wouldn't say it's the sort of thing a melee character couldn't live without, it is one of the feats that's most reliably worth having.

Mordy

2012-07-14, 04:47 PM

And without friendly buffs (which shouldn't be presumed for these sorts of comparisons), your average full-BAB melee sort isn't outpacing monster ACs by much of anything either.

Why shouldn't we include friendly buffs and situational bonuses? My games generally involve more than one player, and one or more of the following can typically be expected for any given opponent.

- Target is flanked
- Target is prone
- Target is blind
- Target is stunned
- Target is fatigued/exhausted
- Target is flatfooted
- Target is cowering
- Target is entangled

- Attacker is invisible
- Attacker has higher ground
- Attacker is charging

- Bless
- Inspire courage
- Bull's Strength
- Reduce person
- Heroism
- Haste
- Rage
- Magic weapon/fang

And that's just core at ECL5. The benefit to power attack is that it can turn all of that extra to-hit into damage (well, limited by character's base attack bonus of course).

Andvare

2012-07-14, 04:51 PM

It isn't all that hard to plot into a spreadsheet.
I just did one, took me 5 minutes tops.

The Cut-off points, i.e. where all BAB is converted, is:
Drum-roll please.

At strength 16, with a two handed medium sword.
AC 17

At strength 20, same set-up, it is equal at AC 18

Any other to hit bonus just increases the AC cut-off one-to-one.

So, at these strength levels, any higher AC, and you have to ease up on the Power Attack conversion, or get some magic gear. (Edit: Or flanking bonus, or anti-dex-traps O' doom! ect.)

Aricandor

2012-07-14, 05:17 PM

Tripping is for teamplay, not for mindless damage-dealing or self-interest, indeed due to its slight unreliability against anything but normal two-legs. :smallsmile: Get a wizard friend to Enlarge you and you keep them good and safe with trips even against slightly bigger foes. Add the fact that any other melee-bound friends (rogues, clerics because you know what they're like...) get a nice big boost to their hit chances and survival rates and you get a fairly decent combat maneuver... If if if your group plays along.

I guess if you're a druid with feats to spare you can do some better tripping than a warrior-type but what else is new... :smalltongue:

Wonton

2012-07-14, 09:26 PM

I also made a spreadsheet, more generic though. The generic finding (which is fairly obvious) is that if your base damage is low but your base chance to hit is high, PA is really good for you. If your base damage is high but your base chance to hit is low, PA is really bad for you. Here are some specific examples.

Understanding these charts: As you go right on the chart, your damage increases. 4.5 is equal to 1d6+1 or 1d8, 5.5 is 1d6+2, 1d8+1, or 1d10, etc. As you go down, the number you need to roll to hit increases and your chance to hit decreases. The numbers in the boxes are the % increase or % decrease in damage after Power Attack is applied. Ignore any "-100" or less as I didn't account for the natural 20 auto-hit or criticals (because those only matters in edge cases).

1-to-1 Conversion

-1/+1:
http://imgur.com/eVBnQ.png
Actually surprisingly decent. This is probably a level 1 scenario, meaning your one-handed damage is probably around 1d8+3=7.5. Unless the enemy needs a 13 or higher, you're gaining damage.

-2/+2:
http://imgur.com/BTThx.png
Corner cases (like where you're only doing 1d6+1 damage but are almost guaranteed to hit) have gotten better. Realistic cases? Well, our 1d8+3 fighter does more damage than in the +1/-1 case when he needs a 7 or less to hit - probably unlikely unless he's whacking commoners or spellcasters.

1-to-2 Conversion

-1/+2:
http://imgur.com/R4nrG.png
That's more like it. The level 1 Barbarian that is Power Attacking with his 1d12+6 greataxe (12.5 average damage) still gains damage in all 13-or-less cases. The lower your damage, the more of a % increase you're getting.

-2/+4:
http://imgur.com/EJsqZ.png
Are you beginning to see a pattern? The boundary moves up and to the left as you Power Attack for more. That same Barbarian from the previous example is now only in the green on 12, but he in fact gains less damage there now (2.7% increase vs 3.1%). However, the difference between -1/+2 and -2/+4 is still an increase for all 10-and-under cases, and some 11/12/13 cases.

1-to-3 Conversion

-2/+6:
http://imgur.com/fMvUN.png
-4/+12:
http://imgur.com/jmxXU.png
These ones are fairly obvious, I think. You are now gaining damage in a lot of cases. The "boundary" still decreases as you get higher damage on your weapon, but it's now fairly safe to Power Attack for at least -2.

Conclusion

The big take-away point here is that Power Attack gets WORSE if you're throwing around high base damage or Power Attacking for your full BAB. For example, compare the 13.5 column (equivalent to 1d12+7 or 1d10+8) in the -2/+6 and -4/+12 cases. Power Attacking for those extra 2 points only increases your average damage if the enemy you're attacking can be hit with a 10 or less (that cell goes up from 18.2% increase to 20.2% increase).

In other words - if it's a minion that has low AC and probably only needs a 5 to hit, go crazy. If it's a level-appropriate creature with higher AC and probably needs about a 13 to hit, use some restraint and only take 1 or 2 points off.

navar100

2012-07-14, 09:45 PM

A warrior with his good BAB, high strength, and eventually magic +# weapon will have a high attack bonus. A few particular bad guys/monsters will have a high AC the warrior needs every +# to hit he can get. However, for the most part, the warrior will hit his opponent. On some he needs to roll a 12, others a 10, and even more an 8. If he needs to roll an 18 or higher on every opponent he ever faces always and forever the DM is being a jerk, so we can dismiss such occurrences.

Power Attack, therefore, can be used to eke out extra damage to kill the bad guys faster, especially with a two-handed weapon. Flank an opponent and turn that +2 to hit into +4 damage. Cleric casts Bless. Turn that +1 to hit into another +2 damage. You are now at +6 damage to all your attacks still at your normal attack bonus you had before the combat even began. Cleric or Wizard then casts Bull Strength on you. The +4 Strength adds +3 damage because of 1 1/2 modifier for using a two-handed weapon. You also get +2 to hit which becomes +4 damage for Power Attack. You are now at +13 damage to all your attacks while still at the same attack bonus you had before combat even started.

That is what makes Power Attack awesome.

sonofzeal

2012-07-14, 10:10 PM

Given BoB is MIC, the MIC saying you can put Giant's Strength property on a BoB for just the cost of the BoB and Belt of Giant's Strength comes into play.
Apologies, I was thinking of a different item that gives bonuses when fighting larger creatures. Although how you're translating +2/+4 Str into +2/+4 attack mod, I do not know.

Why shouldn't we include friendly buffs and situational bonuses? My games generally involve more than one player, and one or more of the following can typically be expected for any given opponent.

- Target is flanked
- Target is prone
- Target is blind
- Target is stunned
- Target is fatigued/exhausted
- Target is flatfooted
- Target is cowering
- Target is entangled

- Attacker is invisible
- Attacker has higher ground
- Attacker is charging

- Bless
- Inspire courage
- Bull's Strength
- Reduce person
- Heroism
- Haste
- Rage
- Magic weapon/fang

And that's just core at ECL5. The benefit to power attack is that it can turn all of that extra to-hit into damage (well, limited by character's base attack bonus of course).
You forgot Aid Another and Inspire Courage. :smallwink:

...........but, there's also an equal list of penalties. And how likely are you to get up to "hits on a 2" territory?

lvl 5 WBL is 9000. My aforementioned Rule of Thumb is 25% WBL into pure offence, leaving just enough for a +1 sword. Let's go a bit more favourably though, assume 50%, and that's enough for a +2 Strength item and a masterwork weapon of a special material.

It's usually a bad idea to assume that melee sorts start with 18's, but a 16 Str is quite reasonable as a baseline. Boosted by the item, that hits 18, which is a nice round number as far as damage from twohanders go.

Most likely then, you're looking at an attack bonus around +10 (+5 bab, +4 str, +1 masterwork/magic). Monster AC varies roughly from 15 to 22 with a couple outliers on both sides.

Of the buffs you listed... Haste, Bull's Strength, Bless, and Rage only give you +1 attack; Magic Weapon gives nothing; Heroism gives +2 but is single target, doesn't last all day, and is a top level spell at that point; and Reduce Person lowers your Strength and damage dice meaning you only come out even for attack unless you're finessing, and your damage suffers significantly. Put frankly, you're unlikely to be buffed with any consistency in a way that's relevant here.

The rest are a bit more favourable. Charge, certainly you can reliably get in once. Blinded/Cowering/Entangled/Fatigued/Stunned might come up, but usually involve a failed saving throw in the mage's turn and almost certainly the expenditure of daily resources and standard actions. Prone can be manufactured, and if so then you're quite possibly up in "I should definitely PA a little" range against some of the lower CR 5 ACs. Flanking might show up depending on your team and how they play. There's a lot of variables.

At the end of the day though, most of the bonuses you mentioned are situational and infrequent. Unless you've got a friendly tripper (or are one yourself), you're rarely going to do more than scrape the bottom edge of "hits on a 2" (and even that's implausible against a Nightmare or Green Hag), and any PA is going to come with an added wiff chance.

But yes, D&D is usually about stacking overlapping modifiers, and if your group coordinates to give you those situational ones, then PA becomes quite viable. But that's basically just saying that if your entire party focuses on getting the beatstick to do well, then she'll do well. Which isn't really saying much.

Tvtyrant

2012-07-14, 10:30 PM

eggs

2012-07-14, 10:38 PM

But yes, D&D is usually about stacking overlapping modifiers, and if your group coordinates to give you those situational ones, then PA becomes quite viable. But that's basically just saying that if your entire party focuses on getting the beatstick to do well, then she'll do well. Which isn't really saying much.
I'm losing track of your argument.

I agree that Power Attacking for full is very rarely going to have the highest expected returns outside high op, but in this case, the "entire party focusing on getting the beatstick to do well" means casting spells like Glitterdust, Color Spray, Grease, summons, entangle, kelpstrand, etc.

If under those conditions, Power Attack does more for expected damage than its alternatives, it's a good feat. Because those are spells most casters want to cast.

sonofzeal

2012-07-14, 10:45 PM

I feel that with the half dozen ways to get melee touch attacks, and the existence of Shocktrooper, it makes no sense to be trying to discuss Power Attack in a vacuum. Yes, without other supporting abilities it isn't perfect. Getting those abilities is so trivial however that it really does not matter IMO.
Agreed. It often functions are part of a combo. But as I said before:

"There's other ways though. I also like getting a bunch of attacks augmented by Maneuvers, or Skirmish, or Sneak Attack. Or stacking Strength boosts through Barbarian -> Berserker (Deities and Demigods). Or Collision weapons. Or stacking size increases with Strongarm Bracers and Enlarge Person."

Once you're setting up combos to boost your damage, a lot of options become available. Power Attack + Touch Attack is certainly one of them, and a fairly good one too, but is hardly unique. And it does take some effort to get it effective. People talk about it like it's an absolute necessity for melee types to compete, or that it's your major source of damage at high levels, and try to justify it with the flatly falsifiable claim that attack bonus significantly outpaces AC. That's all I'm disagreeing with. I use Power Attack myself, on builds that combo it well, but like many pieces of Common Board Wisdom (tm) I think people have taken a molehill of truth and turned it into a mountain of questionable conclusions.

navar100

2012-07-15, 12:09 AM

So... Pathfinder, 3.5e, or 3.PF (if so, what takes precedence?)?

Pathfinder's Power Attack loses synergy with 3E feats and bonuses to hit. For some people that is a crime against humanity. In its defense, the feat allows the warrior to use it well without having to rely on other feats or other people to provide buffs. It still allows for decent damage, especially with a two-handed weapon. Even though such damage is significant, it is not overwhelmingly so. With other feats available in support, two-handed weapon style is no longer the be all end all of melee fighting. Sword & shield and two-weapon style are worthy alternative options. Two-handed style may still yet dish out the most damage (hooray, that's its shtick), but the less damage cost for the benefits of the other styles is no longer expensive. I find this a good thing.

I find both versions of equal worth.

eggs

2012-07-15, 12:34 AM

There's something to be said for fighter players not spending the time between turns scribbling calculations for optimal PA.

georgie_leech

2012-07-15, 01:18 AM

Why not, maybe it will stop high-op players from feeling so high and mighty about how hard it is to play a wizard properly.

Tvtyrant

2012-07-15, 01:52 AM

Agreed. It often functions are part of a combo. But as I said before:

"There's other ways though. I also like getting a bunch of attacks augmented by Maneuvers, or Skirmish, or Sneak Attack. Or stacking Strength boosts through Barbarian -> Berserker (Deities and Demigods). Or Collision weapons. Or stacking size increases with Strongarm Bracers and Enlarge Person."

Once you're setting up combos to boost your damage, a lot of options become available. Power Attack + Touch Attack is certainly one of them, and a fairly good one too, but is hardly unique. And it does take some effort to get it effective. People talk about it like it's an absolute necessity for melee types to compete, or that it's your major source of damage at high levels, and try to justify it with the flatly falsifiable claim that attack bonus significantly outpaces AC. That's all I'm disagreeing with. I use Power Attack myself, on builds that combo it well, but like many pieces of Common Board Wisdom (tm) I think people have taken a molehill of truth and turned it into a mountain of questionable conclusions.
Fair enough. As usual your ability to see through the issue leaves me little room to disagree. :smallbiggrin:

Kelb_Panthera

2012-07-15, 02:05 AM

Something I think is worth noting: Just because you have PA doesn't mean you have to use it every turn. Against a Bbeg that just popped in unannounced, where your core-only fighter is likely looking at even odds of hitting in round 1, leave it alone. At the beginning of round 3 after he used a potion of true-strike in round two, and is about to charge, go nuts. Even if you can't use PA all the time, it's nice to have when you can.

sonofzeal

2012-07-15, 05:31 AM

Fair enough. As usual your ability to see through the issue leaves me little room to disagree. :smallbiggrin:
:smallsmile::smallsmile::smallsmile::smallsmile:

manyslayer

2012-07-15, 10:06 AM

As for trip, the way it can be really powerful is: You trip the opponent, opponent stands up and provokes an attack an opportunity, you trip with that attack, and the opponent is on the ground again. And if you make a trip attempt, then with improved trip you get an attack in anyway (and they take a penalty to AC from being prone), so you aren't trading actions, you're just winning them. .

The AoO occurs before the action that provokes (otherwise you could never cause a spellcaster to not be able to cast from a failed Concentration check). Therefore
1) the prone opponent goes to stand up
2) the AoO is made
3) the opponent stands up

The AoO cannot be a trip attack because when the attack occurs, the opponent is still prone.

My group played this one wrong for quite a while. Made trippers incredibly powerful. Now, they are still a very tactical way for a fighter to control the battlefield.

sonofzeal

2012-07-15, 10:12 AM

The AoO occurs before the action that provokes (otherwise you could never cause a spellcaster to not be able to cast from a failed Concentration check). Therefore
1) the prone opponent goes to stand up
2) the AoO is made
3) the opponent stands up

The AoO cannot be a trip attack because when the attack occurs, the opponent is still prone.

My group played this one wrong for quite a while. Made trippers incredibly powerful. Now, they are still a very tactical way for a fighter to control the battlefield.
On the other hand, this means another free attack at a +4 to hit since they're prone. You don't need to serial-trip them if they're dead.

Draz74

2012-07-15, 11:37 AM

Warning: nitpicking ahead.

Impaling is my personal favorite though.

IIRC, Impaling is strictly worse than buying a Heartseeking Amulet: same effect, more restrictions on type of weapon, and greater cost, even if you have to multiply the amulet's cost by 1.5 in order to combine it with another Neck Slot item. (Unless, I guess, if you're putting Impaling on ammunition. But that's a whole 'nother can of worms.)

Same sourcebook, too, so there's no loophole there.

Impaling might be cheaper if you have to combine the amulet with another Neck Slot and your weapon doesn't have any other enhancements (and never will). But yeah, long story short, Impaling is actually a terrible choice, except maybe for characters who already have the Amulet and want more daily uses.

LadyLexi

2012-07-15, 02:45 PM

Power attack is required for cleave. Power attack is great against low AC, high HP monsters when you are using a two handed weapon.

+10 damage doesn't seem like much, but being able to immediately strike someone else is nice.

In general I give power attack a 8/10 for two handed melee.

Trip is good for the right character, Dwarven Defender or Knights often make a point of protecting the wizard, and trip can help keep faster enemies with feats like spring attack from ruining your wizard's day. Granted you really need a reach weapon for this, spiked chain works well.

I give Improved trip a 6/10 because of the narrow situation in which it is good.

LadyLexi

2012-07-15, 02:48 PM

On the other hand, this means another free attack at a +4 to hit since they're prone. You don't need to serial-trip them if they're dead.

Does that mean that if you have the feat that allows you a 5ft move instead of an attack you can stand on them? That seems pretty useful.

I always allow someone to trip someone trying to stand up from prone. It just makes sense, you kick their foot out from under them as they start to stand up.

Curmudgeon

2012-07-15, 04:56 PM

I always allow someone to trip someone trying to stand up from prone. It just makes sense, you kick their foot out from under them as they start to stand up.
That's a rule change that leads to abuse. Since attacks of opportunity interrupt the action so that it hasn't occurred, they can keep trying to stand up. With Improved Trip the tripper will get to add damage every time (also without using up any actions) to the limit of AoOs that Combat Reflexes allows them. So a single character with a spiked chain and high DEX could keep half a dozen enemies prone, or beat one or two to death just trying to stand up.

Remember, AoOs pre-empt the provoking action. If you change the behavior for people getting halfway up when rising from being prone you need to be consistent. That means spells would take effect with half power if you interrupt a spellcaster (rather than being lost). Someone leaving a threatened square would always get to the next square despite your AoO.

I really don't think you've thought this through.

dascarletm

2012-07-16, 02:10 AM

Remember, AoOs pre-empt the provoking action. If you change the behavior for people getting halfway up when rising from being prone you need to be consistent. That means spells would take effect with half power if you interrupt a spellcaster (rather than being lost). Someone leaving a threatened square would always get to the next square despite your AoO.

I really don't think you've thought this through.

Really, that would logically lead to spell-casters being hit half-way through casting the spell, having their concentration interrupted, and then failing to cast the spell. Not getting a half-power spell.

Getting half-way through cooking two chicken breasts =/= cooking one chicken breast fully. That just ='s salmonella.:smallwink: