Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXV

[Darrin]

The section you've quoted refers to the MENTOR, not the apprentice. It explicitly says that the apprentice continues to benefit from the Apprentice feat, even though he no longer needs to work with the mentor. (See the sentence just before the one that began your quote.)


No. The Apprentice still has the Apprentice feat. The "mentor's skills" refers to the two skills that are determined by the apprentice's mentor. The term "mentor" is not referring to the apprentice, it's describing the two skills. As you can see from the text, the apprentice still has the Apprentice feat.



EDIT: Here's the complete passage, for clarification:

"Once the apprentice reaches 5th level, he graduates from his apprenticeship. He continues to gain the benefits of the Apprentice feat, but no longer needs to work with his mentor. The mentor’s associated skills remain class skills for purposes of determining the maximum rank he can have in those skills, and he still retains the secondary benefits, but an associated skill can only be purchased as a class skill if he gains a level in a class that has that skill as a class skill."

(Emphasis mine.)


You forgot the last two sentences in that paragraph:

"He no longer needs to tithe to his mentor upon gaining levels. If you allow, he can also immediately exchange his Apprentice feat for the Mentor feat (see below)."

As you can see, when the "mentor's skills" are mentioned, the apprentice hasn't swapped the feat yet. That hasn't even been mentioned yet, and when it is mentioned, it's optional and only allowed at the DM's discretion. If the PC keeps the Apprentice feat, then the two skills that are determined by the mentor he chose are no longer considered class skills until he takes a class that actually has them as class skills.



It's worded a bit odd, but it becomes a little bit more relevant if you're assuming that most apprentices will take the option to convert their Apprentice feat to the Mentor feat (which they can choose to do at 5th level), at which point they become a mentor.

Yes, it is worded a bit odd, but no, the text doesn't assume that most apprentices will swap their feat for the Mentor version. In fact, that's only allowed if the DM offers the option in the first place. And while gaining the Mentor feat gives you all the advantages listed in the Mentor section, that section doesn't actually start until the next page. The text that says you no longer get those skills as class skills is still in the "Apprenticeship" section.

At least, that's my read on it. YMMV.

[Piggy Knowles]

I guess I've always read the phrase "the mentor's skills" as "the skills of the mentor," rather than "the skills you learned from your mentor," especially since the text says you keep all the benefits of your Apprentice feat after level 5 and one of the benefits is adding skills to the class skill list of any character class or prestige class that you gain.

I always assumed the reason they put that clause in there is to clarify that, if you trade out your Appprentice feat to become a mentor, while you no longer get all the benefits of being an apprentice (ie, keeping those new class skills), it does not mean you retroactively lose those skills from the previous levels you've taken. Otherwise, the statement would be a bit redundant, since that's how skills work normally.

That's how I've always read it, at least. I guess that, like most things, it would be up to the DM to clarify, since I couldn't find any errata on the subject.

[Thurbane]

I have to say I'm with Darrin on his reading of how the skills work with the Apprentice feat. To make it "permanent" you'd need Able Learner or something to that effect...

[OMG PONIES]

The reading in question draws information from a section titled "Surpassing The Mentor." I present for consideration a passage that comes two paragraphs later, under the heading "Gaining a New Mentor:"


If a character is expelled or voluntarily leaves an apprenticeship before he surpasses his mentor, he can seek out a new mentor. The new mentor can be of any type. Finding a new mentor is time-consuming. The ex-apprentice must make a successful Gather Information check (DC 10 + character level), and each attempt takes a number of days equal to his character level. Success indicates he has found a new mentor; failure indicates that he has not, but he can try again.

Once a character gains a new mentor, he must immediately pay a tithe of 100 gp times his character level. He must then spend at least a week of 8-hour days studying and working with his new mentor to become familiar with her teaching methods. After this time, the apprentice gains the mentor’s associated class skills and secondary benefits, but he does not gain bonus skill points for the new class skills.

A new mentor’s maximum level is one level lower than the level of the previous mentor (minimum 5th). A character who constantly changes mentors or keeps getting expelled soon finds that no one wants to take him on as an apprentice.

This makes it sound like you can switch to another mentor whom you have yet to surpass, though I'm not sure if this still only applies up to 5th level. Either way, good catch on the "Surpassing the Mentor" section, though the wording is confusing and seems to contradict itself. Either way we read this, I will not take away points from Parsifal--once I give points, I will never take them back; a judge can't lower their score once they view the replay after an event. However, if I deduct points when I should not have done so in the first place, I will always give them back.

[Darrin]

Either way we read this, I will not take away points from Parsifal--once I give points, I will never take them back; a judge can't lower their score once they view the replay after an event. However, if I deduct points when I should not have done so in the first place, I will always give them back.

I said it was a nitpick. Even if the skill points need to be rejiggered, it's a minor gripe about a confusing feat, and it's still a solid, fun build that deserves all the points you gave it.

I just wanted people to be aware that the Apprentice feat has some quirks to it that are not always entirely clear.

[OMG PONIES]

I hear ya, just wanted to clarify a bit more on how I treat my scores after the fact. I'll always give points back for something I've missed, but I'll never take more away.

[gbprime]

Note for contestants... I start each category off with a base of 3.0 and add or subtract from there. This time around, I have made an exception for Use of Special Ingredient. Death Delver has 10 separate abilities to synergize, and I am giving a quarter point for each one, plus bonuses for synergizing particularly well, and my usual points for developing the SI's required skills. But this means that unlike the other categories, Use of Special Ingredient starts with a base of 2.0 instead.

Doctor Herbert West - 13.0 -

Originality - 4.0 - Archivist is a bit out of left field (+0.25) and I've never seen Nosomatic Chiurgeon used (+0.75).

Power - 2.5 - What I don't see here is raw power. Your dragonmarks and death delver abilities give you things that you could have had if you had stuck with full casting progression as an Archivist (-1.0). You spend a lot on Knowledge devotion (+0.5), but you lack the base attack bonus or targetted attack spells to really take advantage of it (-0.25). Mastery of Day and Night is a great trick, but it comes online so late that really a maximized cure/inflict critical is paltry damage, though the disease rider is a nice touch (+0.25).

Elegance - 3.75 - I love the doctor concept (+0.5), and the Chiurgeon fits well with Death Delver (+0.25).

Use of SI - 2.75 - Death Delver's skill requirements are Concentration 8, Heal 2, and Kno(Rel) 4, and you give all three skills significant ranks after meeting the minimums (+0.25). (Had you maxxed any of then out or come close, it would have been worth more from me as a judge.) You synergize spontaneous curing by adding inflicts to it as well (+0.25) and Mastery of Day and Night (+0.25), but that's about it for hooking up the SI's abilities to extra stuff.


Dalibar the Nightmare - 11.75 -

Originality - 3.25 - Nightmare Spinner is a bit rare (+0.25) but otherwise no shocks here.

Power - 2.75 - You're handicapping yourself by taking a full caster and capping it with 5th level spells (-1.0), but you make up quite a bit of that with all the stacked fear effects (+0.75). That would be worth more power, except that you have little to do against anything immune to fear.

Elegance - 2.75 - I like the flavor of linking Nightmare Spinner and Death Delver (+0.5). However, you're missing the required ranks of Knowledge(Arcane) for Arcane Thesis (-0.5), and you rely on wisdom boosting items to qualify to cast nearly all of your Death Delver spells (-0.25).

Use of SI - 3.0 - Death Delver's skill requirements are Concentration 8, Heal 2, and Kno(Rel) 4, and you max out Concentration (+0.25) and Kno(Rel) (+0.25), but never touch Heal again after hitting the minimum (-0.25). You Synergize Deathsense (+0.25), Rebuke Undead (+0.25), and Fear Aura (+0.25), and I'm giving an extra bonus (+0.25) for the Fear Aura synergy for the death effect you add to it. But I'm subtracting for Deadened Soul (-0.25) because you pick up an identical ability elsewhere.


Cado Norl - 11.25 -

Originality - 3.0 - Neraph is a bit rare (+0.5), but a one level base class dip (Barbarian) is worth a penalty (-0.5).

Power - 4.25 - You're a melee fighter, so I'll judge you on the fact that you do hit a 16 BAB by career's end with a bonus attack (+0.25) and you have a reasonable number of skirmish dice to bump up your damage curve (+0.25), plus Distracting Attack is a dependable little trick with all those attacks (+0.25). Skirmish plus Travel devotion is a neat trick that stacks with this and your whirling frenzy (+0.5). (But please note that I am not giving points for specific peices of equipment that you intend to buy, only that which the build itself can do. Yes buying a cloak and having a friend are both great, but they're not worth points.)

Elegance - 2.5 - Scout/Barbarian/Ranger base is nice and simple, so small bonus there (+0.25). But your high level feats lack rhyme and reason. Sword of the Arcane Order is nearly useless when you pick it up as a 15th level character to net 2 first level wizard spells a day with a caster level of... two (-0.5), it sounds like you took it because it's great for Rangers, just not necessarily THIS ranger. And Cumbrous Will actually works AGAINST your full attack mobility fighting (-0.25). Surely there's a better way of increasing your will save than spending 2 of your precious feats on it.

Use of SI - 1.5 - Death Delver's skill requirements are Concentration 8, Heal 2, and Kno(Rel) 4, and you never give them a single extra rank after meeting the pre-requisites (-0.25 each, total of -0.75). I see synergy with Rebuke Undead (+0.25) as it powers Travel Devotion, but I don't see that you hooked up any of the other nine abilities to some other class feature, feat, or tactic; you just have them.


TK-421 "Rush" - 7.0 -

Originality - 2.5 - Warforged and Duskblade are staples of optimization, no points there either way, but a one level base class dip (Ranger) is worth a penalty (-0.5).

Power - 2.0 - You're a melee build, and you break 16 BAB bonus by the end, so small bonus there (+0.25). I see power attack, improved bull rush, and powerful charge... but that's it. I'm sorry, but this guy just can't dish it out (-1.0). And there are better ways to spend feats than to rack up dodge bonuses, but doing them en masse has some advantage. However, you don't qualify for Cumbrous Dodge since you don't actually have enough ranks in Tumble to take it (-0.5). You are, however, capable of healing yourself at 12th level, and for a warforged that's something (+0.25).

Elegance - 1.0 - I see what you were going for with the racial prestige classes and the whole "life, not-life" yin yang thing (+0.5), but it's kind of working at cross purposes with yourself, because abilities from Warforged Juggernaut and Reforged are pretty much opposites, and while you stop short of the major ones cancelling each other out, it sure feels like cherry picking (-0.5). Aside from that, you incur a multiclassing XP penalty with your Ranger level (-0.5) and you fail to take the 4 ranks in Spellcraft that you need for Spellcarved Soldier (-0.5). Oh, and the 35% spell failure you have until level 12 for your Duskblade spells from Adamantine Body (-0.5) plus the fact that it prevents you from using your Fast Movement Ranger ACF at all (-0.5).

Use of SI - 1.5 - Death Delver's skill requirements are Concentration 8, Heal 2, and Kno(Rel) 4, and you bump up Concentration a little later on, but never add any extra ranks to Heal (-0.25) or Kno(Rel) (-0.25). But the major problem here is that you don't hook up any extra tricks to the Death Delver's class features. I'll give you a bump for having Channel Spell usable for your Death Delver casting (+0.25), but I have to take it away again for Diehard... because as a Warforged that class feature is useless to you (-0.25). Everything else isn't hooked up or synergized, it's just there on your character sheet.


Reach - 8.0 -

Originality - 3.5 - Changelings are popular in Iron Chef, but Dragonfire Adept is a bit rarer (+0.25). A one level base class dip (Rogue) is worth a penalty (-0.5). Legacy Champion... I've never seen that actually used before (+0.75).

Power - 1.0 - Let's see... you're a changeling rogue without much in the way of social skills, you have a breath weapon class that only gets to 3d6 damage (plus slow effect) at 18th level, and you took Darkstalker but never more than 10 ranks in hide and move silently (and even those don't come until level 20). I don't see what it is that you're any good at, and I don't see why most foes at your "sweet spot" level 18 wouldn't just ignore you because you're harmless (-2.0).

Elegance - 3.5 - You've chosen a legacy without meeing the skill requirement for it. While easily fixed (just 1 extra rank), it's still a big oops (-1.0). EDIT - Player correction, there was a 5th rank of Knowledge Religion in there, score adjusted upward by +1.0. But more than that, you chose a Legacy that duplicates things that you already get as a Death Delver. Eyes of Balance, Lifetouch, Life Drain , and Unity of Balance are all things you get to do already as a Death Delver (-0.5), and more importantly I don't see that you replace them.

Use of SI - 1.0 - I see that you get all the class features of Death Delver by taking Legacy Champion, but we're not judging Legacy Champion here, and not taking all levels of the SI is worth a quarter point hit per level (-1.25). Death Delver's skill requirements are Concentration 8, Heal 2, and Kno(Rel) 4, and you never touch them again after meeting the minimums (-0.25 per skill, -0.75 total). EDIT - You did add a single extra rank to knowledge religion, so (+0.25) there. But your score in the category is still below the minimum. And I don't see where you've hooked the Death Delver abilities into any of your other abilities for synergy or extra punch. In fact I'm not sure why you're a death delver at all (-0.5). Thankfully, 1.0 is the minimum you can earn in any category, because otherwise this would be a negative.


The Dark Fantastic - 12.0 -

Originality - 4.0 - Paladin/Binder? Binder's worth a bonus (+0.5) and so is Hellbred (+0.25). Love the idea (+0.25).

Power - 3.5 - Protection Devotion (+0.25), Sacred Healing (+0.25), and Retreive spell (+0.25) are each great ways to hook up both pools of Turn and Rebuke you have (+0.25). Pity that you take Hide in Plain Sight but no ranks in Hide (-0.5). And while you can use vestiges as a wildcard, the build comes off with a lot of ability but otherwise lacking in raw power (net no modifier).

Elegance - 2.25 - You apparently stopped bothering to tell us about skills after 14th level (-0.5). And I don't see any ranks in Intimidate, which means you cannot take Devil's Aura or Improved Binding (half point each , total of -1.0). But you make no attempt at Level Adjustment Buyoff, which is boldly refreshing (+0.5). And your backstory just plain old works to set the mood for the build (+0.25).

Use of SI - 2.25 - Death Delver's skill requirements are Concentration 8, Heal 2, and Kno(Rel) 4, and while you give Heal a few extra ranks, you never touch Concentration (-0.25) or Kno(Rel) (-0.25) after meeting the minimums. You have Rebuke undead extra augmented, so double the synergy bonus for that one (+0.5). And the spellcasting is augmented with Retreive Spell (+0.25). But I don't see any extra oomph or tricks hooked up to any of the other 8 class abilities.


Pino Chio - 8.75 -

Originality - 3.25 - A one level base class dip (Barbarian) is worth a penalty (-0.5). A two level base class dip is worth a smaller penalty (-0.25). A warforged mummified incarnate construct? That just tied my brain in a knot. Well done. (+1.0)

Power - 2.75 - What is it that you do? I see some nice grappling ability come online by level 11 (+0.25), but you're not a skill build, you're not an effective caster and you don't really do any damage (-0.5 overall) and have an exceedingly inefficient implementation of Divine Metamagic (-0.5). You can also inspire courage for a whopping +1 bonus, but I'll overlook that. You've got undead immunities going for you though (+0.5).

Elegance - 1.75 - I don't see the advantage to capping off with 5 levels of cleric (-0.5). What does it give you that you don't have already other than a pair of domains... which you never specify (-0.25). Oh, wait, I know... a multiclass XP Penalty (-0.5).

Use of SI - 1.0 - Death Delver's skill requirements are Concentration 8, Heal 2, and Kno(Rel) 4, and you nearly max out Concentration (+0.25), add a few more in Kno(Rel), but don't actually have any ranks in Heal at all (-1.0), making this an illegal build (albeit a very easy one to correct). Looking for synergy, you hook up Rebuke Undead to stuff (+0.25) but nothing else is really leveraged here, and in fact because you're undead, Deadened Soul and Diehard are completely wasted on you (-0.5).


Mortimus Vozh - 14.0 -

Originality - 3.0 - A one level base class dip (Cleric) is worth a penalty (-0.5). Cleric, Paladin, and Human are also not surprising, but not overused in this particular contest, so no points there either way. Deadgrim is interesting though (+0.5).

Power - 4.0 - This guy starts out as a strong melee focus with bonus damage (+0.25), and actually manages to keep up with that through most levels thanks to a 16 BAB (+0.25) and a few more damage boosting tricks (+0.25). And he's got the strongest Turn Undead in the contest (+0.25), so nice job there.

Elegance - 3.5 - This is a build with a tight concept that continues to get stronger in it's core competencies as it levels up, and that... is elegant (+0.5). =)

Use of SI - 3.5 - Not taking all levels of the SI is worth a quarter point hit per level (-0.25). Death Delver's skill requirements are Concentration 8, Heal 2, and Kno(Rel) 4, and you give each skill some extra attention, so no penalties there. Looking for synergy, I see Turn/Rebuke undead hooked up in spades (+0.75), and you add to the Death Delver spell list (+0.25), but Deadened Soul is wasted on you (-0.25).


Het of Wyrmtooth Mountain - 15.0 -

Originality - 3.75 - Hey a kobold (+0.25)! And... one that isn't crumping the heck out of all the dragon-ish feats, so that's actually pretty darn original (+0.5).

Power - 4.25 - Tome of Battle is always good for combat power, and your choice of manuevers is no exception (+0.5). Use of Earth Devotion for battlefield advantage is good (+0.25) and fighting in the same space as a medium or larger creature is just brilliant (+0.5).

Elegance - 3.5 - Base class 10, special ingredient 10. Simplicity is elegance (+0.5).

Use of SI - 3.5 - Death Delver's skill requirements are Concentration 8, Heal 2, and Kno(Rel) 4, and you max out Concentration (+0.25), have a spare rank or two in Heal, but don't touch Kno(Rel) beyond the minimum (-0.25). Synergy-wise, you hook up extra oomph to Rebuke Undead (+0.25) and mention flanking undead minions activating your stances as a bonus use of spellcasting (+0.25), but otherwise you don't enhance the Death Delver class abilities, you merely use them.


Wilhemina Delilah Harkness - 12.75 -

Originality - 3.5 - Incarnate is not unusual in Iron Chef, but Necrocarnate is a bit rare... plus it fits fluff-wise and I happen to like that PrC (+0.5).

Power - 3.5 - Her chosen meldshapes give her some decent punch in combat that doesn't run dry (+0.5). She otherwise functions as more of a generalist with the odd undead minion.

Elegance - 3.0 - a little explanation on what you're using Extend Supernatural Ability and Sudden Ability Focus are FOR would be nice (-0.5). The concept otherwise flows nicely from Death Delver to Necrocarnate and back (+0.5).

Use of SI - 2.75 - Death Delver's skill requirements are Concentration 8, Heal 2, and Kno(Rel) 4, and you max out both Concentration (+0.25) and Kno(rel) (+0.25), but don't add ranks beyond the minimum to Heal (-0.25). Looking at class ability synergy, I see some use of Rebukes (+0.25) and your spells (+0.25) on whatever necrocarnum zombie you have tagging along, but little else. You don't add extra power to the abilities, you just use them.


Mr. Bibby - 11.75 -

Originality - 4.0 - A one level base class dip (Marshal) is worth a penalty (-0.5). But you actually, willingly used Geomancer in a build, and that's worth points for sheer boldness (+0.5). And I've got to say, using an army of weapon weilding monkeys as a valid tactic is... well oddly enough it IS something I've seen before, but it's still quite original (+1.0).

Power - 3.0 - This is the second fear-based build in the contest this time around, and like the other one, you don't have a lot to do against foes immune to fear (-0.5). You do have quite the caster level though (+0.5)

Elegance - 2.0 - Skillful Pandemonic Silver Gnomish Quickrazors for each member of your army of monkeys? Really? (-1.0)

Use of SI - 2.75 - Death Delver's skill requirements are Concentration 8, Heal 2, and Kno(Rel) 4, and you max out Concentration (+0.25), put a bit more into Kno(Rel), but neglect Heal past the minimum requirement (-0.25). Looking at class ability synergy, you chain several things to spellcasting (+0.5) as well as using Sanctified Fall for an extra post-dead action (+0.25). But beyond that, you just have the class abilities, you're not really synergizing them.


Parsifal the Fool - 15.25 -

Originality - 3.75 - I've not seen Medani Prophet used before (+0.75).

Power - 4.25 - You've got fear and awe (+0.5), bardic music (+0.25), tons of divinations (+0.25), helpful buffs and debuffs (+0.25), and even undead meat shields. You therefore succeed in being powerful without weilding great power in any one category. Impressive.

Elegance - 3.75 - Divine Bard and Medani Prophet synergize nicely with each other and with the special ingredient it would seem (+0.5). The whole build has a tight conception but a broad number of uses (+0.25).

Use of SI - 3.5 - Death Delver's skill requirements are Concentration 8, Heal 2, and Kno(Rel) 4, and you max out Kno(Rel) (+0.25), nearly max out Concentration (+0.25), but have only the bare minimum in Heal (-0.25). You synergize Deathsense (+0.25), Spellcasting (+0.25), Spontaneous Casting (+0.25), and lots and lots on Fear Aura (+0.5).

[Piggy Knowles]

Awesome, thank you, gpbrime!

That means, unless my math is wrong, we're looking at...

Final(?) Tallies after Two Judges
{table=head]Entry|Place|Total|Average
Parsifal the Fool|GOLD|35.25|4.41
Mortimus Vozh|SILVER|31|3.88
Het of Wyrmtooth Mountain|BRONZE|30.5|3.81
The Dark Fantastic|Fourth|27.5|3.44
Wilhemina Delilah Harkness|Fourth|27.5|3.44
Doctor Herbert West|Sixth|26|3.25
Dalibar the Nightmare|Seventh|23.75|2.97
Mr. Bibby|Eighth|23.25|2.90
Cado Norl|Ninth|22|2.75
TK-421 "Rush"|Tenth|16|2
Reach|Eleventh|15|1.89
Pino Chio|Twelfth|14.75|1.84[/table]

EDIT: Updating to include OMG's scoring change on Wilhelmina.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Awesome job, guys (OMG PONIES, gbprime and Piggy Knowles).

Now, to any remaining judges, only a handful of hours left. Best of luck!

[Snowbear22]

gbprime, you seem to have miscounted the Use of SI score for Parsifal. Your bonuses add up to 4.5, but you have it listed as 3.5. I don't know if there was a mistake anywhere else, but I noticed this last night.

[Piggy Knowles]

gbprime, you seem to have miscounted the Use of SI score for Parsifal. Your bonuses add up to 4.5, but you have it listed as 3.5. I don't know if there was a mistake anywhere else, but I noticed this last night.

I count it right... +1.75, -.25 for a total bonus of 1.5. He stated at the beginning that UotSI was starting from 2, not 3, so it looks like prime's total is correct.

[Dragrun]

are we allowed to give suggestions to the chairman for a IC challenge?

[gbprime]

I count it right... +1.75, -.25 for a total bonus of 1.5. He stated at the beginning that UotSI was starting from 2, not 3, so it looks like prime's total is correct.

Right, which is why I explained the scoring at the top. Death Delver has ten class abilities if you count spell casting, and I was handing out a quarter point for every one that synergizes with something else in the build. Since that's a potential +2.5 points (not that anyone was likely to get all of them), I started UoSI at a base of 2 instead of 3 this round.

[Piggy Knowles]

We're allowed to suggest, but no guarantee the chairman will listen. If it was about popular demand, the last six ICs would have all been Acolyte of the Skin.


Awesome job, guys (OMG PONIES, gbprime and Piggy Knowles).

Heck, all I did was steal OMG's table and plug in gbprime's scores. They did all the work.

Anyhow, about five hours until the deadline... Then onto the next! I'm personally hoping for something psionic this next go-round.

[Venger]

We're allowed to suggest, but no guarantee the chairman will listen. If it was about popular demand, the last six ICs would have all been Acolyte of the Skin.



Heck, all I did was steal OMG's table and plug in gbprime's scores. They did all the work.

Anyhow, about five hours until the deadline... Then onto the next! I'm personally hoping for something psionic this next go-round.

zerth cenobite

[Piggy Knowles]

zerth cenobite

Zerth Cenobite would be a great one. I'd also like to see the Uncarnate, too. It's too bad Illumine Soul is only five levels, though... It really needs the IC treatment.

[Amphetryon]

Our basement flooded, so I'm forced to extend the contest a bit due to emergency circumstance - hopefully just a day, but tornadoes threaten. Here's a couple concerns about scores, with more potentially forthcoming:

1.
After watching a bit closer how Necrocarnate works, I believe Mr. Ponies neglected a few things that would benefit Mina's build.

I'll treat each based on the bulleted points he did.


For someone whose primary shtick is incarnum, you don’t have much essentia to play around with nor many chakra binds at once. While necrocarnate helps you gain essentia, your dip into the class means you can only snag 2 essentia at a time. That being said, you have 5 soulmelds and only miss the throat, heart, and soul chakras, so you have plenty of options available, even if you can’t use many of them at a time. This makes it a wash (0).


I decided to go with that because I wanted to mix incarnum with spellcasting, the bit I wanted to boost out of the SI. Entering Necrocarnum was mostly to provide a boost to Incarnate, but I stumbled upon something that might solve the Essentia problem.

Basically, Harvest Soul has no limitations on terms of how many times it may be used. This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129982) and this one too (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19851406/Necrocarnates_Soul_Harvest_=_OVER_9000_essentia?pg =1) indicate that Harvest Soul can be used as many times as the Necrocarnate desires, so instead of limited Incarnum, it gets almost infinite Incarnum. The Necrocarnum flavor would essentially be a coincidence. I still want to indicate that I found this later, so it wasn't a key trick of the build, so the "near-infinite Essentia" sorta became the coincidence. Since I was prepared for a lack of essentia (going on all the little ways to use as few essentia as possible and complimenting with magic), I'm ready for any reading of the ruling, so I can basically be an essentia battery or a decent user of Incarnum.


You drop out of necrocarnate one level before gaining essentia trap, which is their signature ability IMHO. I don’t know why this build wasn’t Incarnate 5/Death Delver 10/Necrocarnate 5 (-0.5).

Oh yeah, I figured about that too. That said; shouldn't that be an Elegance penalty? Odd to mention it as a power penalty, because the level of Incarnate works better. For starters, it grants me one more chakra bind, which I find more important. It also grants me 1 point of BAB, Fortitude and Wisdom. Essentia Trap, on the other hand, grants a decent amount of Incarnum but only for 1 round, so in order to make it much more useful I would have had to kill something at every moment, and only for 6 seconds of worth. Pointing out again to Harvest Soul, and I found Incarnate 6 to be more satisfying.


The progression of the character starts nicely, but lags a bit in the middle levels as you go into Death Delver and place your other abilities on hold. Since there’s no specification on what Extend Supernatural Ability and Sudden Ability Focus are tied to, it makes it even harder to gauge how this build progresses (-0.5).

I know this won't help a thing, but lemme mention it anyways. Extend Supernatural Ability works to boost Death Ward OR Fear Aura, because it can only be used once per day. Thus, I get more mileage out of it. Because Extend Supernatural Ability does not mention the "choose one supernatural ability that you know" bit, it works as a free extend to any ability I want. Sudden Ability Focus applies to Fear Aura, once again, because I only need it once; it does have some wiggle room for some of the Necrocarnum soulmelds, though, as it specifies "special attacks". I think you pointed that out because it wasn't clear, so it won't do anything, but it's best to clear that out.

--

Another thing I wanted to point out was the lack of mention to the Fearless Destiny + Cheat Death + Diehard + Nine Lives trick. I mention this because one of the themes behind Mina is "she's just that darn hard to kill" (and it's on the backstory as well!), and that was how she'd do it. Nine Lives only has nine uses, so having an ability that can extend that potentially indefinitely, plus an entourage of solid mooks to boost, means she might cling to all nine lives without hassle or at least save one or two of those lives for when some savvy guy tries to pull off a weird one.

--

One final bit: what would have happened if I chose Vasharan (BoVD) instead of Human? I thought of it later on, but I'm a bit curious because it's basically an "evil human" but has no Humanoid (Human) subtype, the reason I went for Human (for Heroic/Fearless Destiny). What would have been the results, particularly if replacing Improved Toughness for Dark Speech? I think I'm a fool for not thinking that before, but since it's 3.0 material, I played it safe.

2.

[Piggy Knowles]

Our basement flooded, so I'm forced to extend the contest a bit due to emergency circumstance - hopefully just a day, but tornadoes threaten.

Oh no! We had to deal with that about a month ago - one of the many reasons I didn't get a Dragon Disciple entry in - so I definitely sympathize. Hopefully there isn't too much damage... Good luck!

[Kuulvheysoon]

Our basement flooded, so I'm forced to extend the contest a bit due to emergency circumstance - hopefully just a day, but tornadoes threaten.

I know how you feel, man - I live on a flood plain.

Best of luck cleaning that mess up.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The water table is too high for anyone in my area to even have a basement. I sympathize none the less. Good luck getting everything cleaned up, Amph.

[Dragrun]

sounds like you guys need a Control Water spell

Call in the wizards STAT!

[Dragrun]

on the thought of PrCs to suggest (translate pray for it to come) my suggestion is arachnomancer if it hasn't been done yet

[GreenSerpent]

Ooh, I'm going to enter IC for the first time when the next one comes out. I'm not the best, but I can at least try...

I'd suggest Hand of the Winged Masters (Dragon Magic), Sea Witch (Stormwrack), or my personal favourite Keeper of the Cerulean Sign (Lords of Madness).

[OMG PONIES]

Responding to scoring questions:


I decided to go with that because I wanted to mix incarnum with spellcasting, the bit I wanted to boost out of the SI. Entering Necrocarnum was mostly to provide a boost to Incarnate, but I stumbled upon something that might solve the Essentia problem.

Basically, Harvest Soul has no limitations on terms of how many times it may be used. This thread and this one too indicate that Harvest Soul can be used as many times as the Necrocarnate desires, so instead of limited Incarnum, it gets almost infinite Incarnum. The Necrocarnum flavor would essentially be a coincidence. I still want to indicate that I found this later, so it wasn't a key trick of the build, so the "near-infinite Essentia" sorta became the coincidence. Since I was prepared for a lack of essentia (going on all the little ways to use as few essentia as possible and complimenting with magic), I'm ready for any reading of the ruling, so I can basically be an essentia battery or a decent user of Incarnum.

We need to be careful when we toss around words like "almost infinite." While you can gain a lot of essentia from Harvest Soul, it requires a lot of time to use, results in a small amount of essentia gained per use, and the essentia fades after 24 hours. Sinfire Titan's thoughts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7215659&postcount=2) from the link you provided are also an important point to consider. All of that being said, you can gain supercharged essentia totals, but I wouldn't expect to have them constantly on. Rewarding +0.25 in power, as the number of chakra binds is still pretty low.


Oh yeah, I figured about that too. That said; shouldn't that be an Elegance penalty? Odd to mention it as a power penalty, because the level of Incarnate works better. For starters, it grants me one more chakra bind, which I find more important. It also grants me 1 point of BAB, Fortitude and Wisdom. Essentia Trap, on the other hand, grants a decent amount of Incarnum but only for 1 round, so in order to make it much more useful I would have had to kill something at every moment, and only for 6 seconds of worth. Pointing out again to Harvest Soul, and I found Incarnate 6 to be more satisfying.

This is not a matter of progression, but a matter of power. You could have boosted your essentia-grabbing tricks very easily by staying in Necrocarnate for one level. While the chassis provided by Incarnate is better in some ways, I find that Essentia Trap is still far superior, even with its limitations. Just like Harvest Soul, there's no limit on the times per day you can use it and, while the bonus is more short-lived, it can be far more useful. Scoring stands.


I know this won't help a thing, but lemme mention it anyways. Extend Supernatural Ability works to boost Death Ward OR Fear Aura, because it can only be used once per day. Thus, I get more mileage out of it. Because Extend Supernatural Ability does not mention the "choose one supernatural ability that you know" bit, it works as a free extend to any ability I want. Sudden Ability Focus applies to Fear Aura, once again, because I only need it once; it does have some wiggle room for some of the Necrocarnum soulmelds, though, as it specifies "special attacks". I think you pointed that out because it wasn't clear, so it won't do anything, but it's best to clear that out.

Not to get all parental, but if you present something saying you know it's not going to help...chances are you'll be right most of the time just because of the way you present it. This does help to understand more of how the build works, but it's only how it works once per day. If explicitly pointed out in your build, this would have resulted in an increase to UoSI, but you can't assume that the judges will see a combo you're not telling them to look for. That being said, if I was reading more carefully I would have noticed the synergy. Scoring stands in Elegance, but a +0.25 boost to UoSI.


Another thing I wanted to point out was the lack of mention to the Fearless Destiny + Cheat Death + Diehard + Nine Lives trick. I mention this because one of the themes behind Mina is "she's just that darn hard to kill" (and it's on the backstory as well!), and that was how she'd do it. Nine Lives only has nine uses, so having an ability that can extend that potentially indefinitely, plus an entourage of solid mooks to boost, means she might cling to all nine lives without hassle or at least save one or two of those lives for when some savvy guy tries to pull off a weird one.

Another thing that would have resulted in a scoring increase upfront if explicitly presented in your build. Yet again, another one I should have caught in my reading, so +0.25 boost to UoSI.


One final bit: what would have happened if I chose Vasharan (BoVD) instead of Human? I thought of it later on, but I'm a bit curious because it's basically an "evil human" but has no Humanoid (Human) subtype, the reason I went for Human (for Heroic/Fearless Destiny). What would have been the results, particularly if replacing Improved Toughness for Dark Speech? I think I'm a fool for not thinking that before, but since it's 3.0 material, I played it safe.

I would have provided you with an additional +0.5 for Originality (unique race). However, if you attempted to take Dark Speech as a replacement for Improved Toughness at level 1, that would have resulted in a -0.5 Elegance penalty (since the Vasharan racial trait that lets you snag a vile feat doesn't say you can skip prerequisites). If you had swapped out Heroic & Fearless Destiny for other feats which you qualified for, the total scoring result would have been a wash. If you hadn't swapped out the feats, you would have received Elegance deductions for each of them, for a total scoring change of -1.

[gbprime]

Our basement flooded, so I'm forced to extend the contest a bit due to emergency circumstance - hopefully just a day, but tornadoes threaten.

Yuck. Hope things go well.

I bought a house on TOP of a hill for this very reason. I friend of mine lives along a glorified stream, and every time his basement floods I have to say "well that's what you get for not living on top of a hill". So this year... my roof blew off. You can guess what he said to me. :smallsigh:

[Kuulvheysoon]

Yuck. Hope things go well.

I bought a house on TOP of a hill for this very reason. I friend of mine lives along a glorified stream, and every time his basement floods I have to say "well that's what you get for not living on top of a hill". So this year... my roof blew off. You can guess what he said to me. :smallsigh:

Does it make me a horrible person for finding this amusing?

I don't care what the next ingredient is, but please, PLEASE don't let it use it's own casting list again.

[Piggy Knowles]

Does anyone else get random inspiration well after contests are concluded?

I found myself statting up what could be a really cool Mindbender build this morning, just because the idea came to me. And this weekend I toyed around with writing up an Ardent 10/Death Delver 10, with the Guardian mantle and a bunch of control-focused powers.

[OMG PONIES]

Does anyone else get random inspiration well after contests are concluded?

I found myself statting up what could be a really cool Mindbender build this morning, just because the idea came to me. And this weekend I toyed around with writing up an Ardent 10/Death Delver 10, with the Guardian mantle and a bunch of control-focused powers.

Oh yeah, when I started putting together the score archives, reading over the old threads I had tons of ideas for Secret Ingredients that had come before my time.

[dantiesilva]

I have to ask how are we on iron chef 35 when as far as I can see their are not even that many iron chefs?

[Piggy Knowles]

I have to ask how are we on iron chef 35 when as far as I can see their are not even that many iron chefs?

I definitely count 35... here's the list, stolen from the front page:


Iron Chef I: Entropomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142470)
Iron Chef II: Psibond Agent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146583)
Iron Chef III: Cancer Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148584)
Iron Chef IV: Stonelord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150595)
Iron Chef V: War Chanter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152543)
Iron Chef VI: Master of Masks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156876)
Iron Chef VII: Green Star Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158633)
Iron Chef VIII: Pyrokineticist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160266)
Iron Chef IX: Animal Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162702)
Iron Chef X: Mythic Exemplar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164381)
Iron Chef XI: Blade Bravo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166539)
Iron Chef XII: War Mind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9426386)
Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172233)
Iron Chef XIV: Seeker of the Song (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174434)
Iron Chef XV: Drunken Master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176049)
Iron Chef XVI: Assassin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178202)
Iron Chef XVII: Ardent Dilettante (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182492)
Iron Chef XVIII: Unseelie Dark Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186097)
Iron Chef XIX: Dread Pirate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190607)
Iron Chef XX: Incandescent Champion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10976416)
Iron Chef XXI: Ghostwalker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198921)
Iron Chef XXII: Dervish (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206576)
Iron Chef XXIII: Divine Crusader (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210071)
Iron Chef XXIV: Tactical Soldier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214198)
Iron Chef XXV: Scion of Tem-Et-Nu (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217441)
Iron Chef XXVI: Shadowdancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220956)
Iron Chef XXVII: Mindbender (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224008)
Iron Chef XXVIII: Cryokineticist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227304)
Iron Chef XXIX: Consecrated Harrier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229688)
Iron Chef XXX: Initiate of Pistis Sophia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233346)
Iron Chef XXXI: Shadow Sentinel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236908)
Iron Chef XXXII: Temple Raider of Olidammara (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239786)
Iron Chef XXXIII: Drow Judicator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243052)
Iron Chef XXXIV: Dragon Disciple (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246072)
...and, of course, #35, Death Delver!

[dantiesilva]

my mistake, thanks

[OMG PONIES]

It should probably be a bit higher, as I believe the contest began on another site and had a few rounds there prior to GitP's round 1.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It should probably be a bit higher, as I believe the contest began on another site and had a few rounds there prior to GitP's round 1.

I think there were 3 rounds over on the BG forums.

[OMG PONIES]

Here's hoping that our Chairman's basement bail-out is going well. I know how frustrating water damage in the home can be.

[Amphetryon]

Finally have things under control here, assuming we don't get another deluge. Thanks, all, for the patience and well-wishes.

I'm putting up two more concerns from contestants, in the interest of fairness for the extra considerations the flooding granted Mina. That said, the contest shall end tonight at 5:30 Eastern Daylight Savings Time, come (dare I say) Hell or High Water.


Please allow me to rectify the table's coding error here and now:
6th: Combat style(Two Weapon Combat); 2nd favored enemy(Stalwart Hunter); Skirmish (+2d6, +1 AC)(Stalwart Hunter)
7th: -
8th: Distracting Attack; Skirmish (+2d6, +2 AC)(Stalwart Hunter)
9th: -
10th: Improved combat style(Two Weapon Combat); Skirmish (+3d6, +2 AC)(Stalwart Hunter)


It seems I made a huge typo in the skills section: from 3rd level onward, I accidentally forgot to show the increase of Knowledge (religion) from 4 at 1st to 5 at 2nd-onward. While the typo was major and lead to a huge misunderstanding, I don't think it's worth a minus 3.5 to Elegance...

[gbprime]

I've edited my judging to account for Reach's skill correction. That nets +1.0 points from me.

I'll give Cado Nori an extra +0.25 for pointing out the missing Distracting Attack. It's not much of a power boost, but the correction should be worth SOMETHING.

Table wizards, please adjust totals accordingly. :smallcool:

[Piggy Knowles]

Updated!

Final(?) Tallies after Two Judges
{table=head]Entry|Place|Total|Average
Parsifal the Fool|GOLD|35.25|4.41
Mortimus Vozh|SILVER|31|3.88
Het of Wyrmtooth Mountain|BRONZE|30.5|3.81
The Dark Fantastic|Fourth|27.5|3.44
Wilhemina Delilah Harkness|Fourth|27.5|3.44
Doctor Herbert West|Sixth|26|3.25
Dalibar the Nightmare|Seventh|23.75|2.97
Mr. Bibby|Eighth|23.25|2.90
Cado Norl|Ninth|22.25|2.78
TK-421 "Rush"|Tenth|16|2
Reach|Tenth|16|2
Pino Chio|Twelfth|14.75|1.84[/table]

[Amphetryon]

Final tallies and builder's identities are at hand, at last. Well done, all, and, as always, I'll try to have ICOCitP XXXVI up shortly after posting these results. Thanks, once more, for your patience.


1st Place - Parsifal the Fool: Piggy Knowles

2nd Place - Mortimer Vozh: T.G. Oskar

3rd Place - Het of Wyrmtooth Mountain: Kuulvheysoon

Honorable Mention - The Dark Fantastic: rot42

Mina the Undying: T.G. Oskar

Doctor Herbert West: Venger

Dalibar the Nightmare: Madara

Mr. Bibby: Kazyan

Cado Norl: Lestroisrois

TK-421 "Rush: Lestroisrois

Reach: Lestroisrois

Pino Chio: Tim Proctor

[Menteith]

Congrats to everyone!

[Amphetryon]

New contest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252923) is up. You're welcome. :smallwink:

[Kazyan]

Must try new things.

[OMG PONIES]

Sorry, Chairman, I was working when the contest officially closed, and I'd be remiss if I didn't address Reach's scoring concern.


It seems I made a huge typo in the skills section: from 3rd level onward, I accidentally forgot to show the increase of Knowledge (religion) from 4 at 1st to 5 at 2nd-onward. While the typo was major and lead to a huge misunderstanding, I don't think it's worth a minus 3.5 to Elegance...

I know I made a big hullabaloo about "the build as presented," but I didn't realize that Reach does present 5 ranks in Knowledge: religion at level 2, which mysteriously disappears at levels 3 and above. Because of that, I have removed my deductions that snowballed from the missing rank. +1.5 total adjustment to Elegance. Rather than awarding back a full 3.5 points, I simply treated it as if there were 5 ranks (and thus no deduction) the entire time.

[Piggy Knowles]

Congrats, T.G., Kuulvheysoon and rot42!

This was a fun one... it helps that I actually LIKE Death Delver, so working with the class didn't feel like pulling teeth. I actually had four build ideas total, including a VoP Survivor, a psionic build that redirected attacks toward himself, Parsifal, and a build that almost perfectly matched Mina the Undying (Incarnate 6/Necrocarnate 4/Death Delver 10). There were a couple of differences... I used Divine Soultouch and coup de graces with Necrocarnum Weapon to temporarily boost essentia, in order to deal with the low essentia totals I would have. I am glad I didn't submit it, though - I think Mina did a much better job!

Parsifal was fun, although I am still kicking myself about the Apprentice (Entertainer) bit. I try to be pretty careful about not putting anything iffy into a build, unless it's going in under an "Adaptations" section, and always assume things conservatively. But I've read that section many a time and somehow never parsed it as the apprentice losing the skills after 5th level - I always thought that was only if they traded away their feat for the Mentor feat.

It's particularly annoying because I didn't actually need the feat - I had enough skill points to keep Diplomacy and Perform maxed out even paying double, assuming I dropped knowledge (arcana) off the list and lowered a couple of other skills by a few points here and there. And without the feat, I could have taken Extra Music at first level, and possibly fit in Dragonmark Mastery as a capstone.

Oh, well... next time, I suppose. I'm still very happy with the build. Onto the next!

[rot42]

That was good fun. Congrats to the excellent builds and many thanks to the judges. In my defense, Hellbred get to ignore the prerequisites for their first racial bonus feat and the skill ranks are not listed in the table for Improved Binding; really, though, I just dropped the ball on those Intimidate ranks.

[T.G. Oskar]

I will admit, I am torn by the result.

First, kudos to whom deserves it: glancing it as a judge, I applaud both OMG Ponies for his perfect scoring and Piggy for Parsifal's perfect score. I find that his "delayed death" trick is less elegant than that of Mina's (while Parsifal consumes one of his Nine Lives and gets decent healing 1/day, Mina actually saves uses of the ability by means of Fearless Destiny), he dealt with all other parts of the ingredient and boosted them. I have to tip my hat on that.

As you can see, my entry was focused on Mortimus, and Mina was pretty much an afterthought in order to deal with Incarnum. I struck it right with Mortimus as it was a pretty unusual choice; it had some earlier iterations, such as having a dip in Ranger but keeping Lay on Hands, and also considered Bone Knight at one time. However, when I figured that I could get the ability to manipulate negative and positive energy, everything clicked in; I had to make that move, even if the cost was the last level of Death Delver. The only way I could have made it work was to take two levels in Cleric and the last level in Death Delver, to combine Delay Death with Diehard, and probably pull off Healing Devotion as well (but that wouldn't have flied off). I also was gunning for the Silver Flame, because of the huge challenge, but I went for Dol Arrah because of the Glory and Sun domain accesses; certainly, gunning for a Paladin of Pelor would have been just as good, but it wouldn't have made sense with Deadgrim because the Red Watchers are pretty anchored on Eberron's (and specifically Karrnath's) history. When I noticed I ended up with full BAB and a decent way to deal damage (something the Paladin lacked), I went fully in. I'm not a fan of Charging Smite, but I wouldn't have gotten the same mileage with Divine Spirit (arguably one of my favorite Paladin ACFs) than what I'd have gotten with the latter.

With Mina, I just wanted to work with the pet aspect. The Necrocarnum Zombie was the main way to deal with this, particularly with a decent 10 HD creature such as a hydra. That, alongside the 56 HD worth of undead lying around (good for two very nice undead, four undead that were just slightly stronger than the Necrocarnum one, or a combination of some of those) and those gained with rebuking (even if it's not the most powerful way to get undead, it could allow for some shadows, wights and spectres whenever necessary). Here is where I commend Parsifal for his task, as he focused on boosting the aspect of each commanded creature instead of bulk choices. My idea was to showcase how to properly optimize that last ability, since while you can get the ability to cheat death, you can only do so nine times; with Fearless Destiny, in most occasions you could get out of death free once per day, which could result in savings for that crucial ability. Even if all were wasted, Death Delver could still boost Fearless Destiny.

The reason why I asked for Vasharan was because, according to the BoVD fluff, they're to humans what drow are to elves (I believe that's almost a textual quote, but don't trust me on that one). Being a transitional sourcebook, it lacked mentioning the existence of the humanoid (human) type/subtype, necessary for Fearless Destiny, which was the core of the build aside from the horde of undead; however, with some consideration, Mina would have easily fallen as a Vasharan delving even deeper into Evil. The extra Vile feat wouldn't have been bad, though I must admit I played it safe twice (what with the inability to gain Dark Speech); however, by sacrificing one of my feats, I could have gained Lichloved, which would have racked the feel of the build tenfold (at least). It's a shame that such a build wasn't clear.

Now, why do I feel torn? Well, it's the same as what happens when a country that has won a few medals at the Olympics but was at a drought finally wins a medal; it feels great to win a medal, but anything short of gold is a deception. I can't stress it enough; it was a fair build, but that perfect score was more than earned.

The other reason I feel torn is because of the differences between the judges. Ponies gave formidable reasons as to why sometimes one choice isn't necessarily wrong; on the other hand, gbprime's judging left me a bit disappointed, if only because it didn't take a few things into consideration. The biggest qualm I have with him (but, given that I wouldn't have earned enough points to beat Parsifal so it would have been mostly for honor reasons) is his insistence that Deadened Soul was lost on him, when I explained that, despite my explanation towards it (Deadened Soul is an extraordinary immunity to fear, a safeguard in the case the Death Delver was within an AMF or somehow was barred from using supernatural abilities, which would have deactivated Aura of Courage); I found that it was a decent way to cover for something, particularly since Aura of Courage can't be replaced unless you're an elf, a half-orc, or belong to a Faerunian organization (hence incurring on Elegance penalties). Given that I took the time to at least mention it, to indicate how two sources of fear immunity weren't really redundant. The second bit was just the same as that with Ponies, which was the idea that Fearless Destiny essentially boosted Nine Lives by saving uses of the PrC's best ability. Perhaps it was because it wasn't obvious, but had I taken the time to explain all of the tricks, it would have probably revealed that, at least, there were two builds by the same person (you can try, but you can't avoid the quirks). I believe I did well in making two builds that were clearly distinct of each other so as to avoid association with each. The final bit is that she didn't got the Honorable Mention, though it wasn't like she wasn't built for that mention.

I won't feel vindicated until I score an awesome victory, and I still have that spine from the Mythic Exemplar entry lodged deep, so that's probably the reason I don't feel so jubilous for Mortimus' silver trophy. It at least inspires me to go for the gold, so I don't feel like it's a wasted effort, or a wasted reason.