20 level cap for builds?

[Tentakel]

Hi,

new poster, long-time reader, yadda yadda.

I have a question about the builds that people discuss on this forum - they all seem to be made with a 20 level cap in mind. I.e. "My build is a Druid 5/Sorcerer 5/Arcane Hierophant 10", or "don't be a Mystic Theurge because they can't get 9th level spells in both classes".

What's up with this 20 level cap? I seem to be missing something, as the game allows for advancement past level 20 (with somewhat different rules), yet everyone posts as if level 20 is as far as it goes.

Also, how do "monster levels" and level adjustments figure into this? If I have an ogre with 4 monster levels and LA +2, do I have 14, 16, or 20 levels to play with when designing a build (as an example)?

Thanks,
Tentakel

[Blueiji]

After you exceed level 20, you enter epic levels, which function a tad different.

"Monster levels" count as levels, as do levels of LA, so an Ogre with 4 racial HD (monster levels) and an LA of +2, would reach epic levels at level 14.

The SRD has more information on how epic levels work, I'm not so clear on them myself, but maybe another poster can explain them.

Here's a link to the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/. You'll want the section called "Epic Rules".

[eggs]

If we don't talk about levels 21+, there's a small - but non-negligible - chance that they might go away. :smalltongue:

[Slipperychicken]

You're playing a different game at level 21 than you were at level 9. Everything changes completely and becomes really wonky and broken.

Because the game shatters, hard, at level 21, once Epic Spellcasting happens.

If you assume infinite levels, you could do anything you wanted. And you need some kind of restriction, or else there's no challenge.

Most games don't go past level 20 anyway.

The developers didn't put much thought into Epic levels, so why should we?

And what eggs said: We want Epic levels to go away.

[Curmudgeon]

Builds don't have to go to 20; they merely need to satisfy their objectives. As an example, I wanted to get into Arcane Archer (for a 2-level dip to acquire Imbue Arrow) from a divine spellcaster base, so I used (Mystic) Ranger as well as (Cloistered) Cleric. Build below:

Here's an archer build I came up with a while back, intended to get more archery-related feats in a mostly spellcasting build; it's got something for everybody. (Note: The cheesy bonus feat swap may be RAW legal, but I recommend it only if you want to antagonize your DM.)

Race: Wood Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#woodElf) (+2 DEX, +2 STR, -2 CON, -2 INT; Favored Class: Ranger). Alignment: within 1 step of Chaotic Good. You'll need to join the Order of the Shooting Star (see Champions of Valor). This build requires DEX 17 by the time you get to level 6 for Dead Eye, and DEX 19 later if you pick up Improved Precise Shot.


Cloistered Cleric 1 of Solonor Thelandira. Domains: Knowledge, War, Elf; gain Weapon Focus (longbow) and Point Blank Shot feats as granted powers. Level 1 feat: Precise Shot. Should pick up 1+ ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and 4 ranks in Knowledge (religion).
Mystic Ranger 1 (Ranger variant in Dragon # 336, page 105). Gain wild empathy, Track feat. Should pick up 5 ranks in Survival.
Cloistered Cleric 2. Level 3 feat: Far Shot.
Cloistered Cleric 3.
Mystic Ranger 2. Take Arcane Hunter ACF (Complete Mage, page 32) to get Favored Enemy: Arcanists. Gain 3 more ranks in Survival to get 8 total ranks.
Seeker of the Misty Isle (Complete Divine, page 61) 1. Gain Travel as bonus domain; convert this to Travel Devotion (Complete Champion, page 62) feat. Level 6 feat: Dead Eye (Dragon Compendium, page 95): add DEX bonus to arrow damage within 30'.
Mystic Ranger 3. Choose combat style: archery; this grants the Rapid Shot feat.
Mystic Ranger 4. Gain Endurance as a bonus feat.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 2. You'll now have BAB 6. Level 9 feat: Manyshot.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 3.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 4. Do the Dark Chaos Shuffle (Fiendish Codex I, pages 92 & 95) to swap Track and Endurance for

Sword of the Arcane Order feat (Champions of Valor, page 34): cast Wizard arcane spells in Ranger spell slots; and
Holy Warrior reserve feat (Complete Champion, page 60): add level of highest reserved War spell to weapon damage.
You'll now have Cleric 7 spellcasting, BAB 8, and can cast Ranger/Wizard spells at levels 0-2.
If you want to spread on the cheese sauce, this is where you would do the Dark Chaos Shuffle with the 4 Elf bonus feats
Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats. and pick up Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), and Extra Turning; persist Divine Power to keep your BAB up all day.

At this point you qualify to enter Arcane Archer, or you can continue with Seeker of the Misty Isle for more Cleric spellcasting plus other benefits of that PrC.

With Divine Power you'll be at BAB 11.
You'll add (DEX mod +1) to attacks, and (with a composite longbow) (STR mod +4) to damage. (The +1 is from Weapon Focus; the +4 is from Holy Warrior.)
Within 30' you'll add an additional +1 to attacks, and (DEX mod + 1) to damage. (The +1 is from Point Blank Shot; the DEX mod is from Dead Eye.)
You'll have 10 useful feats (or 14 with the cheesy sauce added), without flaws. If at some point you think you've got enough skill ranks in the various Knowledges, you can convert Knowledge domain to Knowledge Devotion for bonuses to attack and damage against the corresponding creature types.

I think extending all builds to level 20 merely shows that the objectives weren't thought through sufficiently.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Generally, builds are extended to 20 because that's where games have generally ended (or before then, obviously). The assumption is that a game isn't going to continue into epic levels unless otherwise stated. Stating the build out to 20 shows the full progression with all the benefits and requirements thereof; that way, if your game goes really well, and you end up going into your next adventure you've got your build already in mind.

Of course, level 20 fetishism can be a problem; if your build only really works from 17-20 and sucks until then (Chuck comes to mind) then it's really not that interesting. The best builds for practical usage have an easily-reachable sweet spot and maintain their usefulness all the way through pre-epic play.

And in epic levels? If you aren't a spellcaster, don't bother showing up. Epic spellcasting is that good. The difference between a level 21 wizard and a level 20 one is roughly the same as the difference between a level 20 wizard and a level 20 fighter.

[Urpriest]

In defense of goals like "9ths" and "BAB +16" by level 20, usually when someone insists on one of these they're doing it because it also influences when you get things at earlier levels. If you don't get to level 20 in a "BAB +16 at 20" gish build you won't get your fourth attack...but you'll get your third by 15 at the least, and likely earlier (13 for your typical Sorcadin, for example). Getting 9ths by 20 means you'll get 8ths by 18, etc.

Also, 20 is a convenient level for high-level one-shots, arena fights, and the like.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yea, when you hit 21, any semblance of game balance goes right out the window. Most of us prefer that epic just doesn't exist.

Sure, it's an arbitrary milestone. But any milestone used to compare characters is going to be fairly arbitrary anyways, so it's one that is commonly accepted for theoretical/practical optimization builds.

[AmberVael]

There's a lot of harsh things said about epic level play, and even though I am a fan and participant of epic level games, there is substantial reason behind what is said.

It's possible to play an epic level game, even one with decent mechanical balance and implementation. But it takes good system knowledge, usually some house ruling and banning, and cooperation on the part of the DM and the players- it probably won't just happen on its own.

Of course, you could apply most of that to high level non-epic games. It just tends to be that much more rampant and obvious once you hit epic.

So really, most people don't assume epic.

[Analytica]

I never really understood what made Epic Spellcasting so powerful, unless you have access to other cheese. If I understand correctly, it is considered broken because you can mitigate down Spellcraft DCs. When looking over the mitigating factors, though, I could find very few ways of effectively doing so that would make sense for any character I would want to play, except doing some spells as very long rituals or with moderate mitigation from a coven or cult.

I've seen suggested that you use Simulacrums of yourself or called creatures with spell slots to help, but unless both you and your DM actually want to play a game where you keep considerable amounts of these around for easy access to epic spells, will this really amount to so much?

Moreover, the rules explicitly say that the DM must approve your epic spell, based on whichever factors they feel are relevant, including balance. It's easy to explain in-game why a particular mitigation scheme doesn't work with the metaphysics of a particular spell. So why assume, from either what the book says or from how people would prefer to play the game, that any spells mitigated to broken levels will be approved?

[Hecuba]

I never really understood what made Epic Spellcasting so powerful, unless you have access to other cheese. If I understand correctly, it is considered broken because you can mitigate down Spellcraft DCs. When looking over the mitigating factors, though, I could find very few ways of effectively doing so that would make sense for any character I would want to play, except doing some spells as very long rituals or with moderate mitigation from a coven or cult.

I've seen suggested that you use Simulacrums of yourself or called creatures with spell slots to help, but unless both you and your DM actually want to play a game where you keep considerable amounts of these around for easy access to epic spells, will this really amount to so much?

Moreover, the rules explicitly say that the DM must approve your epic spell, based on whichever factors they feel are relevant, including balance. It's easy to explain in-game why a particular mitigation scheme doesn't work with the metaphysics of a particular spell. So why assume, from either what the book says or from how people would prefer to play the game, that any spells mitigated to broken levels will be approved?

Well, first off, as you hinted at above, EPIC spellcasting essentially runs on DM arbitration. As such, it is difficult to discuss in a detailed or technical sense on a board like this-- DM arbitration is essentially impossible to model.

Additionally, without at least some arbitration, the spells are unreasonably weak compared to non-epic spells instead of unreasonably strong. It's a very hard needle to thread.

[Analytica]

Well, first off, as you hinted at above, EPIC spellcasting essentially runs on DM arbitration. As such, it is difficult to discuss in a detailed or technical sense on a board like this-- DM arbitration is essentially impossible to model.

Additionally, without at least some arbitration, the spells are unreasonably weak compared to non-epic spells instead of unreasonably strong. It's a very hard needle to thread.

I agree. I really do wish they'd just buillt the system on weird, high-level metamagic and 10th+ spell slots.