T1 game breaking spells? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-07-15, 12:16 AM

*ahem* Some of the spells I consider to be game breaking, broken down by level:

1st level: Nerveskitter. Not because of the spell itself so much as how easy it is to make an item able to cast a 1st level spell. Particularly for an Artificer.

2nd level: Rope Trick. No, really, this is pretty much your reset button that lets casters nova every fight.
Mirror Image can occasionally come close, basically being a superior form of 'you can't hit me' than Invisibility or Displacement, and without the side effects which Blink bestows.
Alter Form can be broken, depending on the circumstances.

3rd level: Magic Circle of Protection from [Alignment]. By itself? Not so bad. In conjunction with Planar Binding? ZOMGWTFBBQ.
Explosive Runes if you let them make a boom-ball with tons of explosive runes all over it, then toss out an area dispel magic and willingly fail your caster check on the dispel to set them all off.

4th level: Celerity takes the action economy out behind the woodshed.
Polymorph. Particularly with Artificer and Warforged shenanigans (If the words 'Transform and Roll out' have no meaning to you, other than fond memories of an '80's cartoon... be grateful)
Divine Power with DMM Persist shenanigans.
Enervation with Metamagic and reducers for negative level stacking.
Orb of Fire with Searing/Blistering Spell + Mailman shenanigans. Yes, you take over a thousand damage. Yes, even if you're immune to Fire damage. Yes, even if you're immune to magic in general.

5th: Lesser Planar Binding. Ever heard of a Nightmare? 6HD outsider with Astral Projection and Etherealness. Now your 9th level Wizard has access to these. And that's only the starter kit.
Righteous Might for DMM Persist ClericZilla.

6th level: CONTINGENCY, particularly when paired with Celerity.
Antimagic Field can also be excessively cheesed. I've seen it done with Arcane Archer2 and arrows... rather nasty, actually.
Planar Binding is also at this level. Trumpet Archons are 14th level Clerics. This is where the chains start coming off completely.

7th level: MMM... although by now, that's just a trinket, since it's basically a more luxurious version of Rope Trick
Limited Wish. Cheap enough xp cost to be actually useful.

8th level: Polymorph Any Object.
Greater Planar Binding. Up to 18HD? Look up Planetars.
Trap The Soul.
Moment of Prescience.

9th level: Gate.
Genesis.
Foresight.
MDJ
Shapechange
Wish

That's just the mostly core spells, barring Celerity and Nerveskitter, you can find them in the SRD.

I hope that helps.

Zale

2012-07-15, 12:27 AM

eggs

2012-07-15, 12:30 AM

T1's game-breaking potential is books deep. If you drop planar binding and polymorph spells, and the Wizard can still Divination+Teleport+Mind Control/Possess/Reanimate some other monster it wants, or make it into an Effigy/Simulacrum/Ice Assassin; if you drop the specific divinations or enchantments, the Wizard list still has more; drop a specific Immediate-casting "Nope" spell, and the Wizard can just choose another.

And while that happens, the fun options for the Dread Necromancer, Psychic Warrior and Bard are pushed off the table simultaneously. And there's the problem of the spells that can do things like free wishes also being the spells that do fun but not necessarily broken things like sicking a succubus on the Evil Philandering Baron.

I'd recommend going into this a bit wary of spells that provide extra actions or provide open-ended powers (eg. "Call an Outsider" or "Turn into a Monster") and to ask players not to be abusive (eg. Greater Consumptive Field + bags of sickly possums), but not to make any big cuts/bans/limits off the bat. Then address problems that crop up on a case-by-case basis.

Curmudgeon

2012-07-15, 12:59 AM

1st level: Nerveskitter. Not because of the spell itself so much as how easy it is to make an item able to cast a 1st level spell. Particularly for an Artificer.
An item can't be used to complete or trigger a Nerveskitter spell when you're flat-footed. The spell has a specific exception in the Spell Compendium Errata:
Unlike other immediate actions, you can cast this spell while flat-footed. There's no exception for spell completion or spell trigger items, so you have to wait until your turn ─ at which time it's too late, because you'll have already rolled initiative.

Wonton

2012-07-15, 01:26 AM

Depending on how you design encounters, some battlefield control spells can be downright broken. Evard's Black Tentacles, for example, attacks via Grapple, no-save, no-SR. If you don't think your fights through carefully, it can basically be an encounter-ender. Even Web can hold up enemies for absurd amounts of time. This matters for early and mid levels, but becomes less of a problem later on as enemies start getting Freedom of Movements and Dimension Doors.

Runestar

2012-07-15, 01:57 AM

Forcecage and maze can make fights hard to balance, when the wizard can immediately remove up to half the opposition. Forcecage in particular, since sr does not apply, and few monsters have answers to it short of teleport or being colossal.

Endarire

2012-07-15, 03:44 AM

How do you define 'broken?' Plenty of spells can easily alter the game to the caster's great advantage. It depends on what your limits are.

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-07-15, 09:52 AM

Why exactly is Genesis broken?

I understand that it enables powerful casters to simply hide away and send Astral Projections of themselves out into the world, but that hardly seems broken.

Unless you think it lets you make a plane with hyper-accelerated time.

Which I don't find any evidence of in the raw, particularly since it duplicates the power of a Greater Deity.

When you make your demiplane, you may choose all the Traits of that demiplane. Time is a trait.

Also, it completely negates the threat to the party because they CAN simply send out Astral Projections of themselves, not risking themselves directly.

whibla

2012-07-15, 10:07 AM

Also, it completely negates the threat to the party because they CAN simply send out Astral Projections of themselves, not risking themselves directly.

Two words:

Silver sword.

kharmakazy

2012-07-15, 10:10 AM

Negates most mundane threats anyhow. The first rule of casters is that if you can cast a spell to do something, someone else can cast a spell to get around it. There is always a better spell.

Urpriest

2012-07-15, 10:16 AM

Two words:

Silver sword.

Yes because Githyanki just give out Minor Artifacts willy-nilly to outsiders.

sonofzeal

2012-07-15, 10:16 AM

Here is the list of Story Breaker Powers from TVTropes:

Anti-Magic or its equivalents in a setting where magic is used frequently.
Using magic in a series that commonly uses science (when it is presented as highly above science).
Copying other people's powers when it doesn't have limits to how much it can copy
Entering Bullet Time, manipulating time in general or even stopping it entirely
Flying Brick, at least at higher levels of power
Any convenient way of bringing people Back from the Dead
Imagination-based Superpower
Mass Brainwashing
Omniscience/prescience
Probability manipulation
Reality warping is almost always a story breaker.
Super Speed
Telepathy
Teleportation, usually why only villains can do it.
Time Travel unless there's some heavy restrictions or immutability
A normal Stock Superpower dialed Up to Eleven
Weather manipulation
Voluntary Shapeshifting
Nigh Invulnerability

kharmakazy

2012-07-15, 10:24 AM

sonofzeal

2012-07-15, 10:39 AM

That list is useless. Half of those are not terribly useful at all in game. Expeditious retreat is broken you guys!
Don't think Expeditious Retreat. Super Speed in this context is more like Haste.

kharmakazy

2012-07-15, 10:45 AM

Don't think Expeditious Retreat. Super Speed in this context is more like Haste.

Which also isnt game breaking. Nor is control weather, teleport, empower spell, antimagic field, or some forms of voluntary shape change.

Urpriest

2012-07-15, 10:49 AM

That list is useless. Half of those are not terribly useful at all in game. Expeditious retreat is broken you guys!

Let's break it down to what it means in-game:

Here is the list of Story Breaker Powers from TVTropes:

Anti-Magic or its equivalents in a setting where magic is used frequently.

In D&D, Magic can only defeat Magic. AMF, Anticipate Teleportation, Detect Scrying...the only viable things you can use to defeat other story-breaker tactics are themselves story-breaker tactics.

Using magic in a series that commonly uses science (when it is presented as highly above science).

Definition of casters vs. mundanes right here.

Copying other people's powers when it doesn't have limits to how much it can copy

Tier 1 and 2 are characterized by toolbox powers that allow unrestricted or largely unrestricted access to the powers of something else. This includes summoning/calling, polymorph et al, animate dead/awaken undead/animate dread warrior, etc.

Entering Bullet Time, manipulating time in general or even stopping it entirely

This refers to several things: invulnerability, action economy, and more large-scale timescrew. We'll get to each of these later.

Flying Brick, at least at higher levels of power

Invulnerability will be discussed later, but the flying part of flying brick is also relevant: any sort of movement mode that most opponents lack makes fights very asymmetric.

Any convenient way of bringing people Back from the Dead
Resurrection, Revifiy et al...all the way up to Continent Resurrection. The more convenient bringing people back from the dead gets, the more likely players will use death as part of their plans.

Imagination-based Superpower

Shapechange into Sarrukh, Genesis, Ice Assassin, Origin of Species...also simply creative use of utility, like Shrink Item.

Mass Brainwashing
Effectively deployed, Dominate et al can be an absurdly cheap force multiplier.

Omniscience/prescience
Tier 1 and 2 have information gathering techniques that have very few counters, with the exception of those in #1.

Probability manipulation
Reality warping is almost always a story breaker.
Already essentially covered. Probability Manipulation is also a story-breaker for how easy it is to hide, in which case things like Nystul's Magic Aura, Love's Pain, and various uses of Oneiromancy are relevant.

Super Speed

Don't think about this in terms of move speed. Think about it in terms of action economy. Doing more stuff when others just do the same thing. Celerity through Time Stop.

Telepathy
The ability called Telepathy is unlikely to be a problem, but that's not what TVTropes is referring to. Long-distance communication is how the internet changed the world, while mind-reading falls under the mention of divinations above.

Teleportation, usually why only villains can do it.
Self-explanatory.

Time Travel unless there's some heavy restrictions or immutability
Limited, but when available...Forced Dream, Teleport Through Time, heck even Quintessence and Time Hop and the uses of Bestow Curse that age things when used on Dragons...

A normal Stock Superpower dialed Up to Eleven
An ubercharger can kill anybody he can get to and hit. A Mailman can kill anybody he can get to and hit, and can get to and hit anybody.

Weather manipulation
Control Weather, Control Winds, Blizzard, Major Iceheart...setting screw at its most basic.

Voluntary Shapeshifting
Self-explanatory.

Nigh Invulnerability

Broad-spectrum immunities, from Wind Wall to Friendly Fire to Energy Immunity to Freedom of Movement and Death Ward. Rocket Tag becomes Rocket Roulette.

kharmakazy

2012-07-15, 11:02 AM

Yeah, quite a few of those are not game breaking even by your exaggerated examples. Flying is not game breaking. It's annoying if you can't fly and the other guy can, but then you just shrug and shoot him.

you have completely misinterpreted

Using magic in a series that commonly uses science (when it is presented as highly above science).

Science is not commonly used in this setting. Magic is used commonly in this setting. Actually, introducing science tends to break magic in this setting.

eggs

2012-07-15, 11:14 AM

There's a bit of a difference between Extended Narrative-Gamebreaking and Tactical Wargame-Gamebreaking.

The prior can include things like Create Spring, Teleport or Fabricate, which basically negate entire plotlines, but which don't have huge effects on tactical gameplay. Basically all the "Tippyverse" stuff.

And the latter can include things like Shivering touch, which might trivialize combat, but which probably aren't going to have a huge impact on plotlines (except specifying the way some character killed something else).

The TVtropes rundown looks like it's all about the former. That's not usually what people look at in gamebreaking D&D stuff, but it can be a pretty big deal when trying to lay out a compelling plot hook that a level 9 character can't resolve in around an hour.

Urpriest

2012-07-15, 11:21 AM

Yeah, quite a few of those are not game breaking even by your exaggerated examples. Flying is not game breaking. It's annoying if you can't fly and the other guy can, but then you just shrug and shoot him.

you have completely misinterpreted

Science is not commonly used in this setting. Magic is used commonly in this setting. Actually, introducing science tends to break magic in this setting.

Flying is broken in the same sorts of games where that phrase is relevant, actually. In a "low-magic" game where the DM conceives of a world of few magic items and fewer casters, but makes no restrictions on player casters (a disturbingly common situation), a few tactical options that nobody else can get can completely wreck gameplay. Then again, this generally has little to do with the Tier system.

kharmakazy

2012-07-15, 11:25 AM

Flying is broken in the same sorts of games where that phrase is relevant, actually. In a "low-magic" game where the DM conceives of a world of few magic items and fewer casters, but makes no restrictions on player casters (a disturbingly common situation), a few tactical options that nobody else can get can completely wreck gameplay. Then again, this generally has little to do with the Tier system.

That's just shoddy DMing on two levels. One, those things you said, and two the fact that any mook can train a flying mount since things that fly are everywhere.

2xMachina

2012-07-15, 01:48 PM

Voluntary Shapeshifting is plot breaking?

That includes the whole Druid class, as well as Dopplegangers and Changelings...

Zale

2012-07-15, 02:10 PM

When you make your demiplane, you may choose all the Traits of that demiplane. Time is a trait.

The spellcaster creates a finite plane with limited access: a demiplane. Demiplanes created by this power are very small, very minor planes.

A character can only cast this spell while on the Ethereal Plane. When he or she casts the spell, a local density fluctuation precipitates the creation of a demiplane. At first, the fledgling plane grows at a rate of 1 foot in radius per day to an initial maximum radius of 180 feet as it rapidly draws substance from surrounding ethereal vapors and protomatter.

The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis, reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize. The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. This spell cannot create life (including vegetation), nor can it create construction (such as buildings, roads, wells, dungeons, and so forth). The spellcaster must add these things in some other fashion if he or she desires. Once the basic demiplane reaches its maximum size, the spellcaster can continue to cast this spell to enlarge the demiplane, adding another 180 feet of radius to the demiplane each time.

It says nothing about Traits.

It allows you to control the temperature, water, terrain and atmosphere of the plane.

If I'm wrong, please cite sources that say so.

Acathala

2012-07-15, 05:46 PM

Shivering Touch from Frostburn is another one to watch out for. It can potentially one shot low Dex monsters with no save, though it does have to through SR.

Tr011

2012-07-15, 07:19 PM

Post-Errata Apocalypse from the Sky. It's overpowered by itself and becomes senseless when used with metamagic. It would mean with Maximize & Enlarge that you destroy complete france with one use. Assuming a not-so-pumped CL. Even for that level, that's just too high. The pre-errata version IMO completly cool.

Mystic Shield and Ghost Form are considered also gamebreaking, but I disagree on that (although Time Stop and Celerity make it a hard combo).

Bloodgruve

2012-07-15, 07:23 PM

How do you define 'broken?' Plenty of spells can easily alter the game to the caster's great advantage. It depends on what your limits are.

I would define 'broken' as a spell that can be used in a majority of situations to gain great advantage. As a DM I want my players to use their resources to great effect and play smart but I need to watch out for those spells that take all the challenge out of most encounters.

I will build some of my encounters to allow my players to use their strengths and decimate the challenges, because overkill can be fun sometimes ;)

TYVM for all the replies,
Blood~

Tvtyrant

2012-07-15, 08:05 PM

Although not game breaking, I like Aspect of the Earth Hunter because you can get it on a wand fairly early in the game, and it is extremely effective at that point. Loses points from there on in.

Togo

2012-07-15, 08:31 PM

The main thing to watch out for is people assuming that spells can do far more than they are written to do. They'll be quite sure their interpretation is correct, but it won't actually be supported anywhere in the text. The internet tends to collect urban myths, and AD&D spellcasting is no exception. Your job as DM is to put sensible interpretations on things. The job of internet posters is to make things sound exciting.

We have an excellent example on this list. - Genesis. Claimed to be broken because you can set the time trait to faster than normal time and break the action economy, but the spell doesn't say or even imply that this is possible. Someone noted you can create a plane, noted that planes can have different time traits, and simply assumed the time trait was something the caster could specify, and broke their game as a result. That's the kind of stuff you have to watch for.

Similar examples include:

-Ice assassin (practical difficulties in keeping a psychotic clone under control)
-Contact other plane (Other planes don't know everything. although they should know a lot)
-Shapechanging spells giving you spellcasting abilities (you can argue about whether spellcasting ability is an ex, su, sp or natural ability, but if you allow this, the limitations on spell per day go out the window)
-Dominate (people are going to notice that he's a mind controlled zombie)
-Astral projection (if the PC is not going to show up, you are under no obligation to provide an adventure for him - also silver cords are vulnerable to random events, and using one continously is simply foolhardy)
-Overland flight (you manoevrabiltiy sucks, and there's no way you can navigate down narrow corners or open doors while using this spell)

Spellcasters have the most powerful class abilities because they are supposed to have practical limitations and limited uses per day. Keeping the game balanced involves making sure that people don't circumvent that. Thus:

-Think about banning things that make metamagic free or cheap, particularly and specifically Divine Metamagic.

-Think about banning things that make short duration spells last all day, such as customised items of short duration spells, and persist spell

-Make sure the party can't always rest and regain spells when it wants to. In general, aim to have about 3-4 combat encounters a day, and make sure you understand what is stopping the party from simply stopping and resting for 8 hours after every fight. One answer is to keep the enviroment dangerous, which is why rope trick and magnificent mansion were called out as game-breaking. I tend to prefer to simply go with plot-driven time limits, but you need a solution that works for you (note that it's not only spellcasters that can use long time delays to their advantage).

-Be wary of any ability that allows spellcasters more high level spells (high level being the highest three or so levels of spell they can cast - which works out at about 6-8 a day.

Breaking encounters is something, that, by and large, spells are supposed to do. Entangle is too good for its level, and remains a useful spell for slowing people down even up to 15th level. Mass fly, or any other situation where the entire party can remain out of reach, will break encounters that rely on monsters who only have melee attacks.

The balance is supposed to be that the more powerful the target, the better the save or ability to resist becomes, and thus the bigger the risk of a precious and limited resource. Anything that circumvents this are worth keeping an eye on, thus:

-Spells that do ability damage (shivering touch is the example given. Note that spells like ray of enfeeblement, that do ability penalties, are less of a problem since penalties don't stack)
-Casters with extremely high primary casting stats (watch those unusual races and templates)
-Casters with a caster level above their level (several spells, such as holy word, use caster level and have monsters resist with their hit dice.)
-Spells that don't have a save, or have negative effects on a successful save (entangle)

Finally, it's worth watching out for spells that make other class abilities and skills irrelevent. Invisibility is better than hide until about 14th level or so. Flying makes climbing and jumping largely irrelevent. Fully buffed combat clerics will be better than melee characters for as long as their spells hold out, and buffed wildshaped druids reliably overshadow melee characters simply because they are so strong. (I generally ban the bite of the... line of spells for this reason).

One last point - make sure that you have a reason for your PCs to want to keep the world as it is. PCs are agents of change, and skillfully played characters can wreck terrible destruction and change on even very powerful campaign worlds. The game is designed to allow them to do so, and if you don't want them to do so, it may be worth having a chat with them first. Wizards and rogues are particularly adept at breaking the economy, while warrior types can reliably break civil authority, and bards and clerics can wreck social change. Best agree with your players what you don't want them to do, or else you'll be looking at wizards selling walls of iron for the metal cost, rogue stealing anything worthwhile held by someone else, and warriors simply ignoring any kind of local fighting force.

I appreciate you were just after a list of spells to look out for, but I hope that I've given some idea of the kinds of things that cause problems. Try and be consistent with your rulings, but ultimately don't be afraid to admit your mistake and change your mind if you need to. The players need to trust your judgement. They may not agree with it, but they need to trust you're trying to do the right thing.

Spuddles

2012-07-15, 08:42 PM

kharmakazy

2012-07-15, 08:53 PM

-Dominate (people are going to notice that he's a mind controlled zombie)

The spell explicitly says a Sense Motive check against DC 15 can determine that the subject’s behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect. I've never heard anyone claim otherwise.

-Astral projection (if the PC is not going to show up, you are under no obligation to provide an adventure for him
That's just silly. Lets punish our players for using the spells we gave them while being as juvenile about it as possible. It's not even terribly broken. In ghostwalk none of the PCs ever show up.

tonberrian

2012-07-15, 08:54 PM

Holy Transformation is pretty whack, especially for DMM persist clerics. The key part is that it grants the Archon subtype (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#archonSubtype) in addition to the nice sacred bonuses.

kharmakazy

2012-07-15, 09:05 PM

kharmakazy, you're totally missing the point bro, and are actually committing a pretty egregious oberoni fallacy. Fly breaks the narrative structure, as its existence require everyone to have a flying pet. Definitionally, it's problematic because it requires fixing.

That isn't how oberoni's falacy works at all. Fly isn't broken. There is no need to fix it.

Oberoni's fallacy would be if I said flight isn't broken, here's how your fix flight.

Presenting obstacles is not broken. Bypassing obstacles isn't broken. (that's what obstacles are for.)

As a player, if the enemies are flying and I cannot, I switch to ranged attacks. As a DM if the players are flying and the monsters are not, I switch to ranged. It's a matter of rational tactical thinking, not repairing a broken mechanism.

Flight isn't broken because bows aren't broken. My NPCs keep dying because the whole party has bows and attacks from so far away.... If the party fighting with bows is throwing a monkey wrench into your plans, you are doing something wrong. If the party flying is throwing a monkey wrench into your plans, you are doing something wrong. If the players have access to the ability to shoot bows, so does everyone else. If the party has access to the ability to fly, so does everyone else.

Togo

2012-07-15, 09:13 PM

The spell explicitly says a Sense Motive check against DC 15 can determine that the subject’s behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect. I've never heard anyone claim otherwise.

So.. you've never heard anyone suggest they can take over a kingdom just by dominating the king? Just to take an example from these boards.

That's just silly. Lets punish our players for using the spells we gave them while being as juvenile about it as possible. It's not even terribly broken. In ghostwalk none of the PCs ever show up.

Hm.. Using the spell isn't the problem. The problem is when a PC uses it 24/7 and expects the other players and DM to work around the practical difficulties. It's the same category as a druid trying to stay in wildshape all the time, and then complaining about being left out of social encounters, not being able to pick up loot, open doors, fit down small tunnels, etc. These practical problems are limitations of the spell/ability, and the tempation is to brow beat the rest of the group or the DM into picking up the slack to allow adoption of it as a lifestyle choice.

You can do that of course. Just like you can give a character a dragon mount. It might well be a fun and thematic part of your game. You just aren't obliged to change the game to make him more powerful.

Togo

2012-07-15, 09:21 PM

Presenting obstacles is not broken. Bypassing obstacles isn't broken. (that's what obstacles are for.)
.

Yeah, you've missed his point. You're talking challenges and he's talking narrative. Flight spoils some narrative structures. So does teleport. You need to be aware of that when planning your game. I generally try and keep fly out of the game until 7th level or so, generally by providing a generous range of attractive alternative spells. I then try and cram any plotlines that single character flight would derail into those earlier levels. I do the same with narrative structure that would be spoiled by the whole party flying, and then again with teleport.

kharmakazy

2012-07-15, 09:23 PM

So.. you've never heard anyone suggest they can take over a kingdom just by dominating the king? Just to take an example from these boards.

Hm.. Using the spell isn't the problem. The problem is when a PC uses it 24/7 and expects the other players and DM to work around the practical difficulties. It's the same category as a druid trying to stay in wildshape all the time, and then complaining about being left out of social encounters, not being able to pick up loot, open doors, fit down small tunnels, etc. These practical problems are limitations of the spell/ability, and the tempation is to brow beat the rest of the group or the DM into picking up the slack to allow adoption of it as a lifestyle choice.

You can do that of course. Just like you can give a character a dragon mount. It might well be a fun and thematic part of your game. You just aren't obliged to change the game to make him more powerful.

Uh, if the player doesn't have hands and wants to open doors he had better learn to break down doors or shut up. "Practical difficulties" are assumed entirely by the player in exchange for semi-phenomenal, nearly cosmic powers. If the player wants to be a wolf all the time what do I care? It's his character. If he wants to be a wolf all the time AND have tea with the queen he needs to work that out for himself. That doesn't make it broken, that makes it annoying to deal with if you have whiny players.

Yeah, you've missed his point. You're talking challenges and he's talking narrative. Flight spoils some narrative structures. So does teleport. You need to be aware of that when planning your game. I generally try and keep fly out of the game until 7th level or so, generally by providing a generous range of attractive alternative spells. I then try and cram any plotlines that single character flight would derail into those earlier levels. I do the same with narrative structure that would be spoiled by the whole party flying, and then again with teleport.

Again, lack of adequate DM preparation does not make something broken. If your narrative requires the players to get somewhere slowly get a better narrative. You should know ahead of time if your players have the ability to fly and plan accordingly. Besides that, you have infinite access to new narratives. It's not like getting around one slightly quicker actually changes anything.

Too much of this is people who don't know how to deal with sudden changes to their precious snowflake plotlines on the fly and declaring things broken.

Snowbluff

2012-07-15, 09:27 PM

Greater Planar Binding. Up to 18HD? Look up Planetars.

Simulacrum. Up to twice CL in HD? Look up Solars lol.

7th level, too.

eggs

2012-07-15, 09:45 PM

-Shapechanging spells giving you spellcasting abilities (you can argue about whether spellcasting ability is an ex, su, sp or natural ability, but if you allow this, the limitations on spell per day go out the window)
That one's stupid and nobody plays with it, but post polymorph subschool, it's RAW.

(Polymorph subschool replaces character stats and abilities with all of those of the assumed form except as specified in spell entries. Polymorph specifically excludes Extraordinary Special Qualities, Supernatural Abilities and Spell-like abilities, but does not address spellcasting. SLAs and Supernatural abilities are defined by their differences from spells. Whether Spellcasting is an extraordinary special attack or an ability type of its own, Polymorph permits it.)

Kelb_Panthera

2012-07-16, 02:14 AM

(stuff) listen to this person for they are wise in the ways of magic.

@ flight causing plot derailment: what plot-hooks would someone miss because they're flying? Same question for teleport.

Spuddles

2012-07-16, 02:14 AM

That isn't how oberoni's falacy works at all. Fly isn't broken. There is no need to fix it.

Oberoni's fallacy would be if I said flight isn't broken, here's how your fix flight.

Presenting obstacles is not broken. Bypassing obstacles isn't broken. (that's what obstacles are for.)

As a player, if the enemies are flying and I cannot, I switch to ranged attacks. As a DM if the players are flying and the monsters are not, I switch to ranged. It's a matter of rational tactical thinking, not repairing a broken mechanism.

Flight isn't broken because bows aren't broken. My NPCs keep dying because the whole party has bows and attacks from so far away.... If the party fighting with bows is throwing a monkey wrench into your plans, you are doing something wrong. If the party flying is throwing a monkey wrench into your plans, you are doing something wrong. If the players have access to the ability to shoot bows, so does everyone else. If the party has access to the ability to fly, so does everyone else.

Yep, you still aren't getting it.

Andvare

2012-07-16, 02:47 AM

I'm disappointed noone has mentioned the most broken of cantrips.
Detect Magic. Invisibility you say? Sure you are. Not game breaking necessarily (it can be), but broken nonetheless.

If Fly is broken, so is know alignment and detect evil.
But, yeah, I'd accept that.

ShadowPsyker

2012-07-16, 03:49 AM

Since you're playing Eberron, no spell is truly broken. Magic and therefore magic-countermeasures are commonplace in Eberron. If that's not enough there's the fact that other planes of existence smash into Eberron from time to time and can play havoc with magic by enhancing or limiting certain spells. Problem with teleporters for this adventure; temporary denied. Problem with fly, uh oh... strong earth ties reduce all maneuverability by 3 steps and cut casting level for all fly/air spells by 10.

As DM it's your job to engage the PC's. Sometimes that's hard, but if done with forethought it creates not just "some game you guys are playing," but a story you are all participating in.

Togo

2012-07-16, 04:09 AM

That one's stupid and nobody plays with it, but post polymorph subschool, it's RAW.

(Polymorph subschool replaces character stats and abilities with all of those of the assumed form except as specified in spell entries. Polymorph specifically excludes Extraordinary Special Qualities, Supernatural Abilities and Spell-like abilities, but does not address spellcasting. SLAs and Supernatural abilities are defined by their differences from spells. Whether Spellcasting is an extraordinary special attack or an ability type of its own, Polymorph permits it.)

Nah, I disagree.

Reason in spoilers since this is getting off topic.
First off I've met people who not only play with it, but play with it so often that they find it difficult to adapt to a game where it isn't accepted as true.

Secondly, polymorph subschool might allow it, but polymorph doesn't. It specifically calls out what abilities you get (extrodinary special qualities) and then goes on to list things you don't get. The only way you'd get spellcasting would be to interpret the abilities called out as mere examples, and the list of what you don't get as exhaustive. That's not only a violent distortion of natural english, but also a fairly major departure from how the game rules typically work. The fact that there is a subschool rule to catch anything not specified doesn't change that. What abilities you get is specified. Spellcasting isn't in that list. If it doesn't say you get it, you don't get it. It doesn't say you get it.

Of course this is a side issue, since whatever your opinion of RAW, it's still something we agree should be banhammered in actual play.

LordBlades

2012-07-16, 05:11 AM

listen to this person for they are wise in the ways of magic.

@ flight causing plot derailment: what plot-hooks would someone miss because they're flying? Same question for teleport.

Any form of plot hook that requires something happening 'on the way to somewhere'. Flying and especially teleportation as a travel mode tends to make something like that quite difficult.

Also, on the topic of flight in combat, it gets a lot more complicated than 'just get a ranged weapon'. Class levels aside, only outsiders are proficient with martial weapons, which means for most monsters it's either a light crossbow (for one crap damage attack per round compared to 3-4 they could deliver in melee) or nothing (for stuff that can't use manufactured weapons and doesn't have a built-in ranged attack).

Getting fly early does tend to make quite a few encounters completely trivial.

Sewercop

2012-07-16, 07:48 AM

From a gm standpoint there are loads and loads of spells i wouldnt touch if i were a player. But a spell aint broken until a player breaks it. That easy.
In every game we play,d&d to warhammer to boardgames we have one houserule:
You break it once, then we fix it.
That doesnt mean we dont argue over fixes or ban hammers, lets just say eye of the beholder differs alot.

Polymorph,wish,celerity,timestop,shivering touch etc all common names in the broken department. But if your group has no idea how to "use" them properly there are no reason to ban any of them.
If you tell a player with a wizard playing a blaster that none of his spells are banned and pages of pages are banned of other types of spells.. Guess what, he might try to find out why and change style.
Would you like a blaster wizboy or god?

And a game can be broken by any class within 20 levels.

On polymorh:
If i remember correct, (got my nephew over so i dont have the time to book dive for hours and search through years old bookmarks) since spellcasting are stated to not be supernatural or spellike its either natural or extraordinary or some like that. I just dont have the time for a day long debacle again. I dont wanna be banned on this site as well. Raw its legal, rai.. hell no :)

kharmakazy

2012-07-16, 10:25 AM

Getting fly early does tend to make quite a few encounters completely trivial.

Only if you have rigid or poorly constructed encounters. There are a ridiculous amount of things that can fly. Not being prepared for that eventuality is a flaw with the DM, not the ability.

Dude is blasting me with arrows from 100 feet up. I don't have any ranged weapons because I am a dire wolf. I go indoors or for cover to regain tactical ground. If the ceiling is 15 feet high its hard to fly over the bad guys.

Nobody is going to just stand there and let the flyer kill them. It's not like he is sneaking up on anybody unless in is invisible too... the is no cover to hide in the air you are super easy to spot.

Warlocks can attack from the ceiling at level 1. Has that, or flying, ever ruined a single encounter for me? No. It's a great tactical advantage but it's nothing a tower shield or a cave can't negate.

Togo

2012-07-16, 10:51 AM

Only if you have rigid or poorly constructed encounters.

So you actually agree that it's a situation that needs fixing, or at least keeping an eye on, but object to mentioning it as something to watch for because you feel it is so easy to fix?

kharmakazy

2012-07-16, 11:00 AM

So you actually agree that it's a situation that needs fixing, or at least keeping an eye on, but object to mentioning it as something to watch for because you feel it is so easy to fix?

No, I am saying if you have a problem with it, it is because you are objectively bad at DMing. If dealing with where the PCs are in 3 dimensional space is too much for you, you may need a new hobby.

Snowbluff

2012-07-16, 11:21 AM

Has anyone mention Enhance Wildshape yet?

Telonius

2012-07-16, 12:03 PM

kharmakazy

2012-07-16, 12:09 PM

For the next minute, he has a +64 to his Bluff check.

No, he only has +64 to his NEXT bluff check, not for the minute duration. It is discharged upon use. It's useful for a second level spell, especially considering there are similar spells with much smaller bonuses.

Sewercop

2012-07-16, 01:05 PM

Guidance of the Avatar. It's not completely game-breaking, and certainly not in a flashy "kill or incapacitate all of my enemies" sort of way. But it can obsolete a lot of challenges given the right (wrong?) circumstances. +20 competence is just too much for a 2nd-level spell to give.

For instance, imagine a 7th-level Bard, 18 cha and max ranks in Bluff. He casts Glibness (Bard3) for +30 untyped to Bluff, then downs a potion of this for +20 on a single check. For the next minute, he has a +64 to his Bluff check. Even without Guidance, +44 is bad enough; but at least you'd still have to roll a 6 to get into Epic skill usages.

Applying it to Iajutsu Focus, Diplomacy, or even Jump can get pretty messy. But some of the worst is going to be with the Knowledge skills, Gather Information, or Sense Motive. DM wants to keep something secret from the players? Either they have to fiat the DC to be through the roof (thus basically invalidating the spell) or hope the players don't figure out they can use the spell that way.

-Iajutsu focus are capped. Yes you can cheese it, but so can you do with all.
Casting a spell to get +4d6 damage next round is not to bad. Its +14 damage.
You would probably do more damage attacking as usual instead. (not adding charisma in this)

-Diplomacy is just bad, i have yet to see a group play it out raw. Pbp or tabletop.

-Jump by itself, not bad at all. Jump with other things can get real bad.Falling damage etc. Most players either dont use this or dont know it.

The spell are powerful, but not broken. That doenst mean it cant be used to break things.

kharmakazy

2012-07-16, 01:18 PM

-Iajutsu focus are capped. Yes you can cheese it, but so can you do with all.
Casting a spell to get +4d6 damage next round is not to bad. Its +14 damage.
You would probably do more damage attacking as usual instead. (not adding charisma in this)

-Diplomacy is just bad, i have yet to see a group play it out raw. Pbp or tabletop.

-Jump by itself, not bad at all. Jump with other things can get real bad.Falling damage etc. Most players either dont use this or dont know it.

The spell are powerful, but not broken. That doenst mean it cant be used to break things.

Spells are like hammers in that way.

LordBlades

2012-07-16, 01:35 PM

Dude is blasting me with arrows from 100 feet up. I don't have any ranged weapons because I am a dire wolf. I go indoors or for cover to regain tactical ground. If the ceiling is 15 feet high its hard to fly over the bad guys.

Nobody is going to just stand there and let the flyer kill them. It's not like he is sneaking up on anybody unless in is invisible too... the is no cover to hide in the air you are super easy to spot.

Not every encounter vs a flyer will be within arms reach of an indoor space.

kharmakazy

2012-07-16, 01:40 PM

Not every encounter vs a flyer will be within arms reach of an indoor space.

Nor will every encounter take place in the vacuum of space. Saying that things are situationaly hard to deal with is a very poor argument when you literally designed every aspect of the situation.

Sewercop

2012-07-16, 01:47 PM

Not every encounter vs a flyer will be within arms reach of an indoor space.

True, but most can be battled with mundane arms and effects.
Flight is a problem that many gms just tuck under the chair. Dragons landing and the likes. In higher levels flight is a must. Unless you have a gm that lands dragons and other fliers at your feet with no spells so you can melee em down.
(its a frustratingly high number, personal exp)

If the creature with flight can attack you, you can attack it. If geared for the adventure. Not having a bow or other ranged weapon are just meh.

Curmudgeon

2012-07-16, 02:01 PM

If the creature with flight can attack you, you can attack it. If geared for the adventure.
That's not necessarily true. A flying creature can use Improved Flyby Attack to make melee attacks against ground-based enemies. If the flyer has greater reach, the ground based enemies can't make melee attacks in turn, even with readied actions. If there's fog or something limiting line of sight, even with a ranged weapon the creature on the ground may only be able to attack when the flyer is within melee range, meaning the flyer will get an extra attack (an AoO) and the creature on the ground can't attack in response.

kharmakazy

2012-07-16, 02:02 PM

True, but most can be battled with mundane arms and effects.
Flight is a problem that many gms just tuck under the chair. Dragons landing and the likes. In higher levels flight is a must. Unless you have a gm that lands dragons and other fliers at your feet with no spells so you can melee em down.
(its a frustratingly high number, personal exp)

If the creature with flight can attack you, you can attack it. If geared for the adventure. Not having a bow or other ranged weapon are just meh.

The rules for flying and maneuverability are honestly kind of complicated. Most people just ignore them. If you DON'T ignore them most kinds of flight can actually make combat kind of difficult. Any maneuverability less than good can't hover without a feat for example and has to maintain forward speed or fall.

BTW, burrow is way better than fly.

Sewercop

2012-07-16, 02:17 PM

That's not necessarily true. A flying creature can use Improved Flyby Attack to make melee attacks against ground-based enemies. If the flyer has greater reach, trangedheactions. If there's fog or something limiting line of sight, even with a weapon ground based enemies can't make melee attacks in turn, even with readied the creature on the ground may only be able to attack when the flyer is within melee range, meaning the flyer will get an extra attack (an AoO) and the creature on the ground can't attack in response.

Im not going to argue that there are times when you are limited in what actions you have that can make an impact. But if you dont have any ranged weapons or other ways for ranged attacks, then you might as well just rethink your character. If there is a fog there, its just as unlikely for it to see you. of course it can have scent or other ways of detecting you.

Are there really people that dont have any ranged weapons in a world with dragons,bats as big as cars,griffons,wyverns, etc? Then you are no longer a wandering murdering hobo, you are a suecidal wandering hobo.

As i said, higher levels flight is a must have. But in the earlier levels most if not all can be handled mundane.

The rules for flying and maneuverability are honestly kind of complicated. Most people just ignore them. If you DON'T ignore them most kinds of flight can actually make combat kind of difficult. Any maneuverability less than good can't hover without a feat for example and has to maintain forward speed or fall.

They are strange, and thats a reason why most gms just land the fliers.
Most gms i have met,gamed or talked with just plain forget to use fliers or spellcasters proper against a group. have you ever seen the face of a forcecaged fighter? its actually worth the spell rain of dices.

i dont disagree with either of you, just saying you need to be prepared for fliers or die.

And to get back on track for the thread.. Forcecage.. Its powerful, not broken. But it can break a group.

kharmakazy

2012-07-16, 02:27 PM

Are there really people that dont have any ranged weapons in a world with dragons,bats as big as cars,griffons,wyverns, etc? Then you are no longer a wandering murdering hobo, you are a suecidal wandering hobo.

I think mostly what they are trying to say is that when the PCs have fly... and the DM intends them to fight a pack of dire wolves or something in the woods as part of a storyline... the PCs can just fly right past them and avoid the story point since dire wolves have a hard time throwing rocks and firing bows.

Which is technically true, if misleading. The fault is not that of the players or the spell, but rather of the limited thinking on the part of the DM. This isn't a console RPG and events aren't triggered by stepping on a certain tile on the ground. You shouldn't design elements that require your players to be on the ground if your players are capable of leaving said ground.

IF it is absolutely crucial to have those dire wolves interact with the players, add a druid to the encounter who casts airwalk on them or something. One of the wolves could be awakened with a couple of class levels. A dire wolf with a level of warlock and spider climb invocation running up the side of a redwood is quite an intimidating thing to picture.

Sewercop

2012-07-16, 02:45 PM

I think mostly what they are trying to say is that when the PCs have fly... and the DM intends them to fight a pack of dire wolves or something in the woods as part of a storyline... the PCs can just fly right past them and avoid the story point since dire wolves have a hard time throwing rocks and firing bows.

Which is technically true, if misleading. The fault is not that of the players or the spell, but rather of the limited thinking on the part of the DM. This isn't a console RPG and events aren't triggered by stepping on a certain tile on the ground. You shouldn't design elements that require your players to be on the ground if your players are capable of leaving said ground.

IF it is absolutely crucial to have those dire wolves interact with the players, add a druid to the encounter who casts airwalk on them or something. One of the wolves could be awakened with a couple of class levels. A dire wolf with a level of warlock and spider climb invocation running up the side of a redwood is quite an intimidating thing to picture.

Reading comprehension fail on my part then. I agree to what you say. The spell is not broken. The encounter are just not up there with the players :)

Togo

2012-07-16, 06:39 PM

The point that was originally made was that it had a narrative effect. You can't have most travel encounters if the PCs don't interact with the landscape between A and B, whether by flying, teleporting, astrally projecting directly to where they want to be, or similar.

So you need to plan your adventure to the abilities and patterns of the party. Since several high level spells make a great deal of difference to what the party does, from phantom steed to overland flight, rope trick, magnificent mansion, teleport, etc., you need to make sure you understand how that will change what the PCs are likely to do. Your copy of Stormwrack is not going to see much use if the PCs have no reason to step on board a ship.

Sewercop

2012-07-16, 07:03 PM

kharmakazy

2012-07-16, 07:21 PM

Kelb_Panthera

2012-07-16, 07:25 PM

kharmakazy

2012-07-16, 07:28 PM

I think the problem is this: even if you know how the spells work, and how to work around them, if the players use them you either have to work around them, or have your plans turned into so mych swiss cheese; regardless of whether it fits the style of game you want to run.

If the style of game you want to run doesn't involve dudes in pointy hats raping the laws of physics then you are probably running the wrong system.

Kelb_Panthera

2012-07-16, 07:33 PM

If the style of game you want to run doesn't involve dudes in pointy hats raping the laws of physics then you are probably running the wrong system.

I agree in principle, but I object to the notion that wizards all wear pointy hats. :smallannoyed:

:smalltongue:

kharmakazy

2012-07-16, 07:48 PM

I agree in principle, but I object to the notion that wizards all wear pointy hats. :smallannoyed:

:smalltongue:

Just to screw with people I usually dress my melee fighters in robes and wizard hats.

TuggyNE

2012-07-16, 07:58 PM

This is what I have been saying. So.. I agree?

I believe the main point being made w.r.t. fly/teleport/astral projection/etc is that, although it is not especially difficult to handle them most of the time, it does require attention; a naive DM, or one blindly following plots from other genres, will often run into serious trouble. In other words, they will break your game, unless you invest some effort into preventing it, and there are some plot devices that are nullified by them. Just because you've already grown accustomed to dealing with the challenge doesn't mean it isn't a challenge for someone just starting out.

kharmakazy

2012-07-16, 08:09 PM

I believe the main point being made w.r.t. fly/teleport/astral projection/etc is that, although it is not especially difficult to handle them most of the time, it does require attention; a naive DM, or one blindly following plots from other genres, will often run into serious trouble. In other words, they will break your game, unless you invest some effort into preventing it, and there are some plot devices that are nullified by them. Just because you've already grown accustomed to dealing with the challenge doesn't mean it isn't a challenge for someone just starting out.

Fireball is broken for someone just starting out who doesn't know the rules. Fly is not a game breaking spell. Saying that a DM might not be familiar with a low level core spell printed over a decade ago and get frustrated is not a valid argument. Everything is broken if you don't bother to learn the rules for it.

Bottom line: Is flight objectively broken? No, of course not.
Can flight be subjectively broken if the DM doesn't actually know the rules? Of course.

ShadowPsyker

2012-07-17, 03:44 AM

Fireball is broken for someone just starting out who doesn't know the rules. Fly is not a game breaking spell. Saying that a DM might not be familiar with a low level core spell printed over a decade ago and get frustrated is not a valid argument. Everything is broken if you don't bother to learn the rules for it.

Bottom line: Is flight objectively broken? No, of course not.
Can flight be subjectively broken if the DM doesn't actually know the rules? Of course.

On the note of newbie DM's; I cannot tell you how many groups I have encountered that thought dimension door opened an actual door and so they would use this for throwing spells and attacks at longer range, all because they simply took the name of the spell at face value. And let us not forget all the times people have ignored type/HD restrictions on spells. Inexperience makes a lot of things broken.

sonofzeal

2012-07-17, 06:17 AM

I have to side with Tuggyne on this. Fireball is rarely if ever going to be broken; the mechanics of the game kind of assume that Ref-half direct damage is a thing that exists. All monsters I'm aware of have a Ref save whether it's poor or superb, and they likewise universally have hp that can be tallied off. The mechanics of the game cater to Fireball as a standard option.

However, that can't be said for Fly. A vast chunk of the Monster Manual is not "made easier" by Flight, it's flat-out negated. Flight is a potential encounter-destroyer with no rolling involved. Worse, it's a potential plot-destroyer, allowing PCs a large degree of freedom that wouldn't otherwise be available, not just in dealing with encounters, but in simply bypassing large chunks of terrain. How many fantasy novels had the heroes travelling through hostile land? Heck, half the campaigns I've been in have had something like that! But with party-wide flight, it's a thing of the past.

Yes, a creative DM can deal with it. But that's just the point - it's powerful to the point of FORCING the DM to respond to its very existence, even if the PCs don't actually use it. It's essentially the Oberoni Fallacy applied to plots instead of mechanics. Yes, you can deal with it. But it forces you to do so in a way that Fireball does not.

LordBlades

2012-07-17, 06:29 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqVD0swvWU

This is quite a funny example on the way flight can change a 'classical' adventure

Spuddles

2012-07-17, 06:46 AM

Eldan

2012-07-17, 06:50 AM

I don't have a problem with T1s ending an encounter in two spells.

I have a problem if they do it with encounters ten CR points above their level.

Togo

2012-07-17, 07:21 AM

I don't really care about CR -I have no limit to the number of monsters I can throw at the PCs.

What I care about is having to design an entire campaign around a group of people who will only ever arrive at exactly where they were intending to go without necessarily travelling through the intervening landscape. It means no encounters on the road, no getting news from travellers heading in the opposite direction, ditch the 3-way political fight on the bridge, forget the entire inn scene. It means that everyone the PCs interact with needs either be at the point of their arrival, or flying, or else they simply may not run into them.

It's entirely possible to do, but yeah, it's something to watch out for, in a way that fireball simply isn't.

kharmakazy

2012-07-17, 09:26 AM

Not wanting to plan around flight is just unabashed laziness. You ALWAYS have to plan encounters based around your player's abilities, it's not some new things you are doing for flight alone. If your party is made up of drunken barbarians they probably aren't going to want to roleplay that fancy dinner party encounter you had planned. They are going to knock over tables and put boots to heads.

For petes sake, there are stories where people can fly. What do they wind up doing? Dealing with other people who can fly. Oh, you can teleport? There are stories about that too, see jumper. Heck, nightcrawler didn't ruin the plot of every x-men book.

And yes, if you didn't bother to read the rules fly is hard. But so is every other spell. If I don't read the rules it's possible fireball just incinerates everything... after all... its a ball made of fire. Willful ignorance is not the fault of the spell.

Arbane

2012-07-17, 01:46 PM

One last point - make sure that you have a reason for your PCs to want to keep the world as it is. PCs are agents of change, and skillfully played characters can wreck terrible destruction and change on even very powerful campaign worlds. The game is designed to allow them to do so, and if you don't want them to do so, it may be worth having a chat with them first.

OR be prepared to have both you and them deal with the consequences of the changes they make.

nedz

2012-07-17, 06:13 PM

What I care about is having to design an entire campaign around a group of people who will only ever arrive at exactly where they were intending to go without necessarily travelling through the intervening landscape. It means no encounters on the road, no getting news from travellers heading in the opposite direction, ditch the 3-way political fight on the bridge, forget the entire inn scene. It means that everyone the PCs interact with needs either be at the point of their arrival, or flying, or else they simply may not run into them.

Wind is your friend here. You don't necessarily need a hurricane, just a strong breeze which is blowing the wrong way will do.

ShadowPsyker

2012-07-17, 08:50 PM

sonofzeal

2012-07-17, 09:37 PM

What ever happened to the "we need to search for X" plot line. If your'e players always know exactly where they need to go, that seems like a DM who wants them to always use teleport and fly. Put a little mystery in. You can't just fly over a forest and expect to find what your'e looking for. IRL we are constantly finding buildings and cities hidden in jungles that could not be seen by air. Then there's the dungeons, ancient ruins, underwater environs, the entire underdark, and oh... yeah; "Don't fly to the city of Railgorne there's a red wyrm that's been paroling the skies for a new hunting ground."
Nobody's arguing that there aren't good stories you can tell with Fligh around. Harry Potter comes to mind. But Lord of the Rings, Wizard's First Rule, Neverending Story (Falkor notwithstanding), Princess Bride, Willow, Labyrinth?

Accessible and reliably flight doesn't prevent good stories, but it limits your options in a way that's clearly non-trivial.

kharmakazy

2012-07-17, 10:32 PM

I hope you realize that this statement is a thinly veiled insult to the people who are disagreeing with you (if veiled at all), and that you just reduced their viewpoint to "laziness."

It's not an insult. It is a statement of fact.

The only argument being made is that flying requires extra DM effort. What do you call it when people don't want to put in the effort to do the bear minimum?

"I don't feel like doing the work." is not equal to "It is broken.".

If you want to play in a low magic game that is fine. Nobody begrudges wanting to do that. Telling people that a spell is broken because it doesn't fit into a low magic game just doesn't make any sense.

Edit: Looks like he deleted his post...

sonofzeal

2012-07-17, 10:45 PM

It's not an insult. It is a statement of fact.

The only argument being made is that flying requires extra DM effort. What do you call it when people don't want to put in the effort to do the bear minimum?

"I don't feel like doing the work." is not equal to "It is broken.".

If you want to play in a low magic game that is fine. Nobody begrudges wanting to do that. Telling people that a spell is broken because it doesn't fit into a low magic game just doesn't make any sense.

Edit: Looks like he deleted his post...
See my above post. Yes, it requires more effort. It also limits your story. The whole "must travel from A to B through dangerous obstacles" is pretty central in most fantasy novels and movies, and it tends to go straight out the window when cheap and easy flight is available - which is why so few fantasy classics provide it.

You made a point earlier about barbarians at a dinner party, but that comparison falls apart for two reasons. First, dinner parties aren't a defining part of the genre the way travel-through-dangerous-lands is. Second, that's someone's entire character, whereas flight is merely a single spell out of literally dozens that particular character could cast.

kharmakazy

2012-07-17, 10:59 PM

See my above post. Yes, it requires more effort. It also limits your story. The whole "must travel from A to B through dangerous obstacles" is pretty central in most fantasy novels and movies, and it tends to go straight out the window when cheap and easy flight is available - which is why so few fantasy classics provide it.

You made a point earlier about barbarians at a dinner party, but that comparison falls apart for two reasons. First, dinner parties aren't a defining part of the genre the way travel-through-dangerous-lands is. Second, that's someone's entire character, whereas flight is merely a single spell out of literally dozens that particular character could cast.

Again, my only point is that the the spell is not "broken". If you are going to start cutting the wizard list down to only spells that fit into a standard fantasy novel you aren't going to have very many spells left.

Maybe you just have a strange definition of the word broken.

By the time the wizard is able to make the entire party fly all day long you have much worse spells to contend with.

Besides... LotR spent most of the time walking because hobbits can't fly. Why not fly the ring in on that eagle? Probably because sauron would blast it from the sky since it would be the only thing up there. The author wrote the story so that flying wasn't a valid choice, why is that so hard for you to do?

eggs

2012-07-17, 11:02 PM

New specially-tailored Fly-busting campaign setting:
It's like a normal campaign setting, except it is a wind storm every day.
And there are sky-wolves.
:smalltongue:

kharmakazy

2012-07-17, 11:07 PM

New specially-tailored Fly-busting campaign setting:
It's like a normal campaign setting, except it is a wind storm every day.
And there are sky-wolves.
:smalltongue:

Honestly, by the time your entire party can fly none of their challenges should consist of impotent dudes on the ground with swords.

Kelb_Panthera

2012-07-17, 11:18 PM

Here's a thought on grounding the fliers when you need them to "stumble" onto something. Why are your flying murder-hobos the only thing in the sky? As people around here are fond of pointing out; lots of creatures, of mid-high cr, fly. DM's guide says 5% of encounters should be, "holy crap! Run!" type scenarios. You need a party to land, they see a dragon/ flight of griffons/ wing of wyvers/ gaggle of yrthaks/ etc, or even just a nasty storm brewing on the horizon. When they land to avoid an insurmountable hazard, oops! "coincidental" plot hook! Naturally you'll need a forest below them in the cases of large flying predators.

nedz

2012-07-17, 11:37 PM

New specially-tailored Fly-busting campaign setting:
It's like a normal campaign setting, except it is a wind storm every day.
And there are sky-wolves.
:smalltongue:

Mmm, well I suggested a breeze; but if your PCs are flying then so are the bad guys.

If you are flying, then it is generally through the air. Wind is the air, like, moving :smalltongue:

So you are Overland Flying at 40', but if the wind is in your face at 20', then you are making 20' ground speed. This is how flying works.

sonofzeal

2012-07-18, 05:11 AM

Again, my only point is that the the spell is not "broken". If you are going to start cutting the wizard list down to only spells that fit into a standard fantasy novel you aren't going to have very many spells left.

Maybe you just have a strange definition of the word broken.

By the time the wizard is able to make the entire party fly all day long you have much worse spells to contend with.

Besides... LotR spent most of the time walking because hobbits can't fly. Why not fly the ring in on that eagle? Probably because sauron would blast it from the sky since it would be the only thing up there. The author wrote the story so that flying wasn't a valid choice, why is that so hard for you to do?
"Story Breaking" - anything that can derail a campaign that isn't specifically designed to accommodate it.

The latter caveat is necessary because of the Oberoni variant mentioned earlier - just about anything can be managed or "fixed" or accommodated with enough effort. The key distinction between "broken" and "not-broken", then, is whether it's capable of breaking a campaign.

Flight is. Nearly every class fantasy movie and novel could have been shortened dramatically or resolved entirely through judicious use of flight. Therefore, flight is story-breaking.

I suppose whether that qualifies it as GAME-breaking depends on how much story content your game has.

Togo

2012-07-18, 05:37 AM

I suppose whether that qualifies it as GAME-breaking depends on how much story content your game has.

Given that the original point was narrative/story breaking, and his every reply has been mentioning game/mechanics breaking and encounter design, I'm guessing not much. He may be more used to a more player-driven sandboxy style, where it's the job of the DM to adapt to the players and provide versimillitude, rather than provide plot, narrative flow or a sense of style or theme.

Then again, my concern that a DM running a high level game for the first time might not realise the extent of these repurcussions makes me lazy, juvenile, and an objectively bad DM, so clearly there is no difference in play style and expectations here. It's just a fact that we're wrong.

ahenobarbi

2012-07-18, 05:39 AM

"Story Breaking" - anything that can derail a campaign that isn't specifically designed to accommodate it.

Everything is "story breaking" by that definition.

sonofzeal

2012-07-18, 06:26 AM

Everything is "story breaking" by that definition.
I have a widget that lets me roll random spells of various levels. Let's roll a random 4th level spell, and compare it to the list of fantasy stories given before (Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Wizard's First Rule, Neverending Story, Princess Bride, Willow, Labyrinth).

....Magic Circle Against Good. Well, it could derail a plotline about mind control, but that's fairly specialized. Wizard's First Rule comes closest, but could still have been made to work even if MCaG existed and was used. I'll count it as a partial.

...Augment Object. Nope, I can't think of a single moment in any of those where doubling an object's hardness would have been more than a temporary hiccup. Individual scenes might play out slightly differently, but the main plot can easily accomodate it. No points.

...Dust Storm. Would have been useful in any big battle in LotR, but that's all that comes to mind. And even then, those battles are generally such that killing even a few dozen enemies wouldn't really shift much. We Have Reserves is usually the watchword of the day.

Fly though? Easy Flight would have made LotR a whole lot easier even if it wouldn't have cheap-shotted the whole campaign. Wizard's First Rule, Labyrinth, and Willow were primarily a get-from-A-to-B stories too, so Fly would have cut out at least 80% of the plot. Nearly every obstacle and opponent in Neverending Story can be dealt with by flight, which is why Falkor is either conveniently absent or conveniently grounded for much of the movie and book. In Princess Bride, Fly would have let them avoid both the Fire Swamps and the ambush at the other side, and would have let them fly straight to the titular princess's room rather than storming the castle.

On my impromptu 0-7 scale, none of my randomly selected 4th level spells past a score of 0.5/7... except flight, which got a massive 6/7 rating.

So no, everything is not "story breaking", at least not to the same magnitudes.

Raimun

2012-07-18, 07:03 AM

Miracle.

It's kind of like Wish but arguably better, since it can mimic any spell of up to 7th level and up to 8th if they are on your list. That's without XP-cost and therefore, it sees more use than Wish. Basically, it's like being a spontaneous caster who knows most of the spells ever written. Almost any kind of effect is among those. Bonus: any spell mimicked counts as a 9th level spell.

Of course, the real abuse starts when you start applying Divine Metamagic on top of it. One simple trick is to cast Miracle: Giant Size, Divine Metamagic: Persist. Instead of being Colossal Size for one minute, you'll be a Clerical godzilla for 24 hours.

Urpriest

2012-07-18, 08:02 AM

Zale

2012-07-18, 08:04 AM

Maybe if.. if... there's a hurricane?

Yes. Let's go with a sudden spontaneous hurricane caused by a bored high level wizard.

Darn wizards always messing things up.

sonofzeal

2012-07-18, 08:07 AM

Another point to make about flight is that D&D itself assumes the PCs don't have flight about half the time. A Seismosaurus is CR 12. It's far too big to be hiding in a cave or the like. Is any 12th level party actually going to be challenged by it?
...I'm in a lvl 12 game right now, and I don't think any of the characters have a reliable method of flight. Not to say they'd be challenged by it, at least one character in the party could guarantee-OHKO it. At 100% reliability, even, not just 95%.

Flight's certainly accessible by then, but not ubiquitous.

dextercorvia

2012-07-18, 08:21 AM

...I'm in a lvl 12 game right now, and I don't think any of the characters have a reliable method of flight. Not to say they'd be challenged by it, at least one character in the party could guarantee-OHKO it. At 100% reliability, even, not just 95%.

Flight's certainly accessible by then, but not ubiquitous.

While this is a good point -- that players don't always optimize to the teeth (or even waist) -- the availability is an issue. Flight is readily accessible (especially for T1), and makes you immune to a host of challenges/obstacles/even monsters. That makes it a no-brainer for a character that is playing at T1.

The Seismosaurus is also not something you can just give a Bow to.

Synovia

2012-07-18, 08:36 AM

I think mostly what they are trying to say is that when the PCs have fly... and the DM intends them to fight a pack of dire wolves or something in the woods as part of a storyline... the PCs can just fly right past them and avoid the story point since dire wolves have a hard time throwing rocks and firing bows.

Which is technically true, if misleading. The fault is not that of the players or the spell, but rather of the limited thinking on the part of the DM. This isn't a console RPG and events aren't triggered by stepping on a certain tile on the ground. You shouldn't design elements that require your players to be on the ground if your players are capable of leaving said ground.

IF it is absolutely crucial to have those dire wolves interact with the players, add a druid to the encounter who casts airwalk on them or something. One of the wolves could be awakened with a couple of class levels. A dire wolf with a level of warlock and spider climb invocation running up the side of a redwood is quite an intimidating thing to picture.

The problem is that a single 3rd level spell invalidates much of the monster manual, without resorting to tricks like awakened animals.

As a 3rd level spell, flight is broken. It should be much higher.

Sewercop

2012-07-18, 09:24 AM

...I'm in a lvl 12 game right now, and I don't think any of the characters have a reliable method of flight. Not to say they'd be challenged by it, at least one character in the party could guarantee-OHKO it. At 100% reliability, even, not just 95%.

Flight's certainly accessible by then, but not ubiquitous.

Im curious to how you can guarantee that...

Every group defines broken different.Flight is not broken in 3.5.
Flight can break your group, but its not broken in the realm of 3.5.
To say its broken are just false.

I ask you this, will your fighter tell you flight is broken or forcecage?
its the same, it can break a group but it wont break 3.5

ahenobarbi

2012-07-18, 09:46 AM

When I wrote "Everything is "story breaking" by that definition" I meant everything, not just spells. Think how guns could destroy Harry Potter (cause a way more deadly that spells they use so you'd get no "magic fights") if they were not removed form the story.

Does it mean guns are no good, story breaking, twisted things you shouldn't allow?

I have a widget that lets me roll random spells of various levels. Let's roll a random 4th level spell, and compare it to the list of fantasy stories given before (Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Wizard's First Rule, Neverending Story, Princess Bride, Willow, Labyrinth).

We'd need much bigger and diverse sample of stories. Checking on a few you chose because flight would break them will give biased results.

Or even better for each spell try to think of a story that would be broken by it. If you can think of one the spell is "Story Breaking" by your definition.

And Overland flight is 5th level not 4th.

Fly though? Easy Flight would have made LotR a whole lot easier even if it wouldn't have cheap-shotted the whole campaign.

[Not really on the topic but...]Oh really? Which part? Me thinks only getting to Rivendel.

Kelb_Panthera

2012-07-18, 12:11 PM

I'm sorry, an option that can be trashed by bad weather is not broken. I don't mean hurricane force winds either, though being buffeted by th occasional strong gust would suck. Storms also have rain, which can bring the exposure rules into play; poor visibility, which can get you lost; Lightning that can fry your butt; and, if you're high enogh/ at the right latitude, possibly freezing/ frozen precipitation that can weigh you down/ pummel you. You could try to fly over the storm, but at high altitude winds are stronger and air is colder. There's also possible altitude sickness. There are just way too many ways for flight to be handled for it to really be broken.

ShadowPsyker

2012-07-18, 12:11 PM

Sewercop

2012-07-18, 12:48 PM

Although I have already noted these as a possibility i will list them plainly. 2 options are most obvious when you need them to walk;

1) Dangerous flying monster 10+ levels above them they have to avoid,
2) A zone which limits or hinders flying magic (Alternate magic zones and places of planer convergence are common in Eberron).

1) So your solution are to have epic monsters capable of taking down high level casters flying around. You are better off banning flight in your games. Jeez...
What the hell do you think these monsters do after your group avoids them? Hang around...

2) If you do that, they will just grow wings. Yeah, really.

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww303/Gassalasca/Lulz/doublefacepalm02.jpg

ahenobarbi

2012-07-18, 02:13 PM

dextercorvia

2012-07-18, 02:16 PM

Red LotR? Really flying would make them little good there. Think 'bout 't. There are many ways to make flight a no good movement mode if you want (as DM). So if you want players not to fly you should be able to (most o' them won't work with teleportin' though).

Getting trapped on Orthanc (how long was he there before he hitched a ride?)? After breaking the grapple with the Balrog? And, that's just the most likely character to have flying capability.

ahenobarbi

2012-07-18, 02:32 PM

Getting trapped on Orthanc (how long was he there before he hitched a ride?)? After breaking the grapple with the Balrog? And, that's just the most likely character to have flying capability.

That would require replacing a few lines in the story (side note: flight got Gandalf out of both those situations anyway, only it was not a spell but a friend with natural flight).

ShadowPsyker

2012-07-18, 02:35 PM

1) So your solution are to have epic monsters capable of taking down high level casters flying around. You are better off banning flight in your games. Jeez...
What the hell do you think these monsters do after your group avoids them? Hang around...

2) If you do that, they will just grow wings. Yeah, really.

Epic? At what level are you thinking fly is broken? If your level is in the teens, fly is just normal. And your characters shouldn't be the only heroes in the world! So what... high CR monsters don't exist until you reach higher level. How does that make sense narratively? If you can't handle it guess the world is screwed... oh well. And as per my previous post; those with fly have their maneuverability reduced.

I should not have to say this, but I will. D&D stands for Dungeons and Dragons. Dragons exist. They are big and they are scary. They do not spawn from the egg as wyrms. They have to age. Long before you got level 20 these bastards were devouring whole villages. Sometimes characters have to go places where Dragons lurk but don't want to/can't handle a fight with the big bad lizard. If you run games where the threat is always level appropriate, then you may as well play a generic video game RPG with scaled encounters. oh... you reached a new level, cool let me up all the kings guards by 1 too. What you wanna confront the lich now!? okay let me just drop him 5 levels so it's fair.

Sewercop

2012-07-18, 02:51 PM

Epic? At what level are you thinking fly is broken? If your'e level is in the teens fly is just normal. And you're' characters shouldn't be the only heroes in the world! So what... high CR monsters don't exist until you reach higher level. How does that make sense narratively? If you can't handle it guess the world is screwed... oh well. And as per my previous post; those with fly have their maneuverability reduced.

I should not have to say this, but I will. D&D stands for Dungeons and Dragons. Dragons exist. They are big and they are scary. Sometimes characters have to go places where Dragons lurk but don't want to/can't handle a fight with the big bad lizard. If you run games where the threat is always level appropriate, then you may as well play a generic video game RPG with scaled encounters. oh... you reached a new level, cool let me up all the kings guards by 1 too.

You said 10 levels above. Overland flight are level 5.. so about 19 level fliers just hanging around in every damn corner you figure players will fly.

or hey.. fly level 3.. maybe they extend it.. thats level 15 mobs..
its not epic, sorry about that. But of course its a great idea to have party stomping creatures around outside your prison transport.

And where did i say that all that excist are level appropriate?
I said your ideas was bad.

ShadowPsyker

2012-07-18, 02:53 PM

You said 10 levels above. Overland flight are level 5.. so about 19 level fliers just hanging around in every damn corner you figure players will fly.

or hey.. fly level 3.. maybe they extend it.. thats level 15 mobs..
its not epic, sorry about that. But of course its a great idea to have party stomping creatures around outside your prison transport.

And where did i say that all that excist are level appropriate?
I said your ideas was bad.

Why is it a bad idea to have what the source material says not only happens but gives you an in game reason to not fly? And why pray tell must you do this for every encounter? Do you never want them to fly? Maybe you should be playing something else if a spell that has been played with for 30 years is breaking your game.

eggs

2012-07-18, 02:54 PM

How does that make sense narratively?
This is an interesting question.

What are levels for, beside raising characters' stakes/scale through a campaign in accordance to narrative conventions?

I would think it's the same reason Star Wars doesn't open with Luke Skywalker blowing up the Death Star, then spend the rest of the movie with him getting beaten up by sandpeople in the desert.

Kelb_Panthera

2012-07-18, 02:54 PM

kharmakazy

2012-07-18, 02:57 PM

Again, if your game requires the players to be in one specific place or it falls apart, you have done your job badly. The encounters, and thus the story... takes place where the players are. If your players are somewhere else, the story follows them. You don't funnel the players into the story, you funnel the story into the players. It's about the players, not your inflexible plot that you lovingly crafted.

ShadowPsyker

2012-07-18, 02:58 PM

This is an interesting question.

What are levels for, beside raising characters' stakes/scale through a campaign in accordance to narrative conventions?

I would think it's the same reason Star Wars doesn't open with Luke Skywalker blowing up the Death Star, then spend the rest of the movie with him getting beaten up by sandpeople in the desert.

Not quite sure what you mean here, because we see the death star very early and it's a major threat. Plus, star destroyers are an excellent deterrent to causally flying around, since you have to flee from them or hide.

And to backup Kelb; A flight of Dragon riders is so appropriate in D&D that it hurts to think about them.

Kelb_Panthera

2012-07-18, 03:00 PM

Sewercop

2012-07-18, 03:08 PM

ShadowPsyker

2012-07-18, 03:14 PM

{{scrubbed}}

Who said anything about being bullied. It's just a known fact that characters would want to avoid. Is it railroading to put a mountain range in your game with first level characters? What about a wasteland? How am I being a bully by populating the world with a variety of CR's to give the illusion of an active dynamic world with plots that don't always involve the characters.

Addendum: Not only that, but something for lower level characters to look forward to if these guys are bad guys. And they don't have to be evil. An overly strict organization that watches the sky's for any number of reasons can be antagonistic to PC fliers.

Synovia

2012-07-18, 03:17 PM

What about my points on simple bad weather? Mind you I'm not saying your campaign world should be constantly wracked with storms, but they do happen. You also ignored the possibility of multiple flying enemies of only moderately higher CR.

How is having some sort of contrived excuse every time they try to fly better than just saying we're not using the fly spell?

ahenobarbi

2012-07-18, 03:22 PM

How is having some sort of contrived excuse every time they try to fly better than just saying we're not using the fly spell?

Maybe you don't want players to fly just this once because you had wonderful idea that requires them not to (and you think they don't mind)?

Kelb_Panthera

2012-07-18, 04:07 PM

Kelb_Panthera

2012-07-18, 04:12 PM

How is having some sort of contrived excuse every time they try to fly better than just saying we're not using the fly spell?

Who said every time they fly? I only meant that these were things that could be used on occasion when you need the party to find a plot-hook in-transit.

ahenobarbi

2012-07-18, 04:31 PM

If you can force* them down occasionally to "accidentally" find your plot-hook with minimal effort, how is flying broken again?

* I say force, but there's nothing to stop the pc's from simply accepting the consequences of flying in bad weather.

And they kind of need to sleep. And kid of need to land to do that. What's wrong with providing hooks then?

Kelb_Panthera

2012-07-18, 05:05 PM

And they kind of need to sleep. And kid of need to land to do that. What's wrong with providing hooks then?

Assuming that the trip will take more than one day, and that there are no small towns in-between, nothing at all. I'm still assuming our hypothetical plot-hook is in the wild. It could just as easily be in one of the small towns between A and B.

This only strengthens the point that all-day flying is not broken. Mildly annoying if you didn't think about it beforehand or forgot about it, but certainly not broken.

ShadowPsyker

2012-07-18, 05:28 PM

Fly lasts 1 minute per level, and only affects one person. Mass fly is 5th level and again only lasts 1 min/lv. The only way fly would automatically avoid all your encounters is if the arcane caster cast overland flight on every party member and their companions/mounts (running out of high level spell slots) or you use divine metamagic on persistent spell with a higher level spell that produces mass fly (as it's not a cleric spell). In either case your'e adventuring at a high level of play where randomly walking from town to town doesn't make thematic sense unless your'e searching for something (which as I have previously stated is a valid choice). Allowing a low level party to fly everywhere will only happen if you as the DM specifically allow them some way to do this. If you've got a party filled with only spell-casters then maybe a fight with a bunch of canines is a little below their league. Heck, on the other end of the argument; how do you think a party of ninjas and rogues would feel (balance wise) if all you gave them was undead, plants and oozes to fight. There is balance in the game. You as DM are required to find it!

Kelb_Panthera

2012-07-18, 05:53 PM

Fly lasts 1 minute per level, and only affects one person. Mass fly is 5th level and again only lasts 1 min/lv. The only way fly would automatically avoid all your encounters is if the arcane caster cast overland flight on every party member and their companions/mounts (running out of high level spell slots) or you use divine metamagic on persistent spell with a higher level spell that produces mass fly (as it's not a cleric spell). In either case your'e adventuring at a high level of play where randomly walking from town to town doesn't make thematic sense unless your'e searching for something (which as I have previously stated is a valid choice). Allowing a low level party to fly everywhere will only happen if you as the DM specifically allow them some way to do this.

There are a number of magic items and class/ racial features that allow for all-day flight at mid-level, and some divine casters can produce flight effects as well. While a DM can ban any or all of these things, the general assumption in these sorts of discussions is that anything goes, since we're talking about the system on-the-whole.

Example of a cheap and easy way to get the party airborne: One player plays a high str raptoran or dragonborn. He hauls the rest of the party around in a string of cargo kites (RotW pg167.)

TuggyNE

2012-07-18, 06:10 PM

Epic? At what level are you thinking fly is broken? If your level is in the teens, fly is just normal. And your characters shouldn't be the only heroes in the world! So what... high CR monsters don't exist until you reach higher level. How does that make sense narratively? If you can't handle it guess the world is screwed... oh well. And as per my previous post; those with fly have their maneuverability reduced.

I should not have to say this, but I will. D&D stands for Dungeons and Dragons. Dragons exist. They are big and they are scary. They do not spawn from the egg as wyrms. They have to age. Long before you got level 20 these bastards were devouring whole villages. Sometimes characters have to go places where Dragons lurk but don't want to/can't handle a fight with the big bad lizard. If you run games where the threat is always level appropriate, then you may as well play a generic video game RPG with scaled encounters. oh... you reached a new level, cool let me up all the kings guards by 1 too. What you wanna confront the lich now!? okay let me just drop him 5 levels so it's fair.

The problem I have with the "draconic air superiority" idea is that, unless there's some good reason the dragon(s) only care about airborne enemies, staying on the ground won't help them. Just how hard is it for the dragon to spot them, anyway?

So now the situation is that the party is crawling along, trying to avoid being seen by vicious foes that will kill them for sure if they're spotted. I'm sorry, but that's not a generally applicable plot device.

In any case, all these suggested solutions to the problem of flight are just that: solutions to the problem of flight. Flight is something that needs to be handled; it's not impossible, or necessarily even difficult, but it restricts your plotting choices to some extent and requires extra preparation. Why is this so hard to accept? :smallconfused:

ShadowPsyker

2012-07-18, 06:11 PM

This is all true. That said, there are a number of magic items and class/ racial features that allow for all-day flight at mid-level, and some divine casters can produce flight effects as well. While a DM can ban any or all of these things, the general assumption in these sorts of discussions is that anything goes, since we're talking about the system on-the-whole.

Example of a cheap and easy way to get the party airborne: One player plays a high str raptoran or dragonborn. He hauls the rest of the party around in a string of cargo kites (RotW pg167.)

Any item in game was allowed, no sorry, not just allowed; Placed in the world specifically to be acquired by the party. If the DM then fails to compensate for what he allowed them to have... well then. Besides it's these guys point that the fly spell (Specifically 3rd level) is broken.

Kelb_Panthera

2012-07-18, 06:31 PM

In any case, all these suggested solutions to the problem of flight are just that: solutions to the problem of flight. Flight is something that needs to be handled; it's not impossible, or necessarily even difficult, but it restricts your plotting choices to some extent and requires extra preparation. Why is this so hard to accept? :smallconfused:

I don't think anyone's saying that flight isn't a potential problem that should be addressed; just that, if that potential is realized, it's a fairly minor problem that can be easily addressed. Since the problem is so easily addressed, it doesn't meaningfully restrict the narrative, unless you put all of your plot-hooks in out of the way places that the party will fly past. It is therefore not broken.

Then of course there's the flip-side of the coin. It's trivially easy to make flight an almost necessary means of travel. Put a large desert or body of water between plot-points A&B. Place your shiny Mcguffin in a castle in the sky. Air pirates. The hostile terrains can be travelled by non-magical means, albeit at a much slower pace. The floating castle might occasionally land or at least dock for supplies, and the air pirates certainly will, but flight can make any of these more dynamic and keep the game a bit more fast-paced.

kharmakazy

2012-07-18, 08:35 PM

Kelb_Panthera

2012-07-18, 09:22 PM

@ shadowpsyker: I don't know why I agreed with that post. Edited to correct.

@ kharmakrazy: There's one difference between flying and your examples: intuition. Flying people are counter-intuitive, and therefore, easily overlooked. Lack of armor comes up in the very first combat of the adventure if you don't have anything to compensate. It's just something that comes up anytime you think about combat. Walking is something most people take for granted, and will notice immediately if they don't have it. Flying, on the otherhand, is something you wouldn't necessarily think of, unless you had it and you lost it or it was used against you. That is why it can be a problem. Note the bolded text. Flying isn't a problem until it becomes a problem. Savvy?

Malachei

2012-07-19, 04:06 AM

The main thing to watch out for is people assuming that spells can do far more than they are written to do.

Yes, and a really important point. A lot of discussions on these forums have their roots in radically different approaches to reading text. (as in hermeneutics). IMO, there's perhaps three schools:

Look at RAW. If it is not explicitly forbidden, it is probably allowed Look at RAW. If it is not explicitly allowed, it is probably forbidden Use judgment in trying to find your version RAI, or an interpretation that leaves your game challenging, fun and consistent

I'd say in general, you only have to watch out for people belonging to the first school. The first school is likely to cause issues in-game (apart from spawning huge discussions on forums). No matter what school you belong to and whether you think one of the three adequately represents what you believe to be the best way to interpret the rules, the most important thing is that everybody has fun at the table.

An exciting story, a cooperative gaming group who treat each other with respect, PCs and NPCs that seem to come alive through the storytelling are more important to me than working on a ban-list before a game has even started. The better the game, the easier it is for everybody to accept that it should stay fun and challenging for everybody involved, even if one PC would love to take the nifty class feature that might raise his power level dramatically.

I think it is important to remember that it is the DM's job to set the boundaries of the game. If all your players accept this and the rule books exist to support the DM in running the game (and not vice versa), then you can talk about a general power level and handle issues as they arise. You can solve the majority of issues in-game, but when something disrupts the game and you find you can only solve it by damaging your game world's consistency, it is your job to address it out-of-game, on the meta level.

We didn't use Polymorph Other to transform the fighter, because, first, we agreed that it is a terribly painful and hideous transformation that nobody would undergo willingly, and second, for most characters, it felt better to adventure in their own forms, because it is actually their character that makes the day, not a foreign form that you owe to some wizard's spell.

Self-restraint actually goes a long way, often longer than a ban-list. People see a ban-list as boundaries, and some may try to work around it the way tax accountants try to work around tax laws.

I've never seen a game actually break -- and I've played a primary arcane caster to level 36 and I've run epic games where the player characters have battled the likes of Orcus and Tiamat.

Xaragos

2012-07-19, 05:42 AM

I don't see an issue with flight per say, because there are so many ways to limit the use of that mode of travel. It can be annoying to have certain classes that can do that and invisibility at will but there are limitations. But I think the topic of flying has been beaten over the head with a colossal sized warhammer. The OPs question are tier 1 spells that break games, not just flight :)

My personal favs:

Any unsavable unresistable spells, yes they are out there Orb of whatever for example
Save vs Death
Persistent spells
Time Stop
Celerity
Wish
Miracle
Animagic Field
Shivering Touch

I have seen DMs argue that the most game breaking spells are the ones that are protective in nature...ie dispel line, panacea, break enchantment, etc. The rationale being that it prevents the interesting story hooks that you get when you have to try to find a cure for a poisoned party member or an intricate magical barrier is broken with a well rolled dispel. I don't really agree but I figured I would throw it out there for discussion sake.

nedz

2012-07-19, 05:56 AM

Example of a cheap and easy way to get the party airborne: One player plays a high str raptoran or dragonborn. He hauls the rest of the party around in a string of cargo kites (RotW pg167.)

Warlock - Fell Flight - Level 6
Half-Fey - Wings - Level 2
Flight of the Dragon - Sorc/Wiz level 8/7 (Level 4 spell SpC 10 mins per level duration)
Flying Carpet - Cash

ShadowPsyker

2012-07-19, 06:57 AM

Warlock - Fell Flight - Level 6
Half-Fey - Wings - Level 2
Flight of the Dragon - Sorc/Wiz level 8/7 (Level 4 spell SpC 10 mins per level duration)
Flying Carpet - Cash

Warlocks can only let themselves fly not the whole party, likewise half-fey (and half fey must be level 3). A 7th lv wiz is only casting that spell maybe twice and an 8th lv sorc would exhaust the entirety of their high level spells just to cast it on himself plus three others (hope you don't have companions/mounts). As for a flying carpet: If the DM gave it to them he can't complain if they USE IT!

Togo

2012-07-19, 07:09 AM

If you know people can fly, you plan your encounters the same way. There are not "solutions" to flying because it isn't a problem.

YOU are the problem.

If you plan your game based around the idea that none of the PCs are going to wear armor then full plate ruins everything.

Lack of knowing and understanding the rules is a mistake YOU are making, not something that is being inflicted upon you by the spell.

Which is of course an excellent reason to argue for it not to be included in a list of problems a newbie DM should watch out for.:smallconfused:

I'd like to think there's more than one way to run a game, but apparently not.

Kharmakazy, would it be fair to say that your objection is largely a violent rejection of any DMing style that would allow this to be perceived as a problem in the first place?

Would you agree that people do in fact run games in a contrary style, however much you may disapprove?

Because it strikes me that you're objecting not so much to the idea that flight creates issues that need to be compensated for, so much as you are rejecting the idea that the DM might seek to alter the game for the sake of the plot, rather than adjust the plot in accordance with the game.

Might we call this an ideological objection? However well founded it might be? Could that perhaps explain why your posts are quite so vehement, and contain so many insults and accusations? Because you're arguing against a DMing style that you feel is actively detrimental to the game?

Togo

2012-07-19, 07:20 AM

As for a flying carpet: If the DM gave it to them he can't complain if they USE IT!

Sure, but this thread isn't about what the DM might complain about, or what he might ban. It's about what effects he needs to be aware of and possibly compensate for as the party rises in level.

He might give them a flying carpet, expecting them to use a flying carpet, and still be in the dark about what he needs to do to modify the game from then on as a result.

As an example, I had one DM who gave the players a ship. What he hadn't realised, was that from that point on they would never visit an inn again. They don't need to sleep there, they're carrying booze for export, and so they set up their own little dockside card games rather than spend time and effort visiting taverns. So his plotline that started in a tavern had to start somewhere else, and he had to change a great many of his NPCs and plot details in order to compensate. It took him a long while.

If he'd know that that was going to be a consequence of giving us a ship, then he could have saved himself a lot of effort.

Of course, we could have just told him that he, HE was the problem, that he was lazy and juveline, and that he was an objectively bad DM. I'm still not clear on how that would be helpful.

ahenobarbi

2012-07-19, 07:26 AM

As an example, I had one DM who gave the players a ship. What he hadn't realised, was that from that point on they would never visit an inn again.

Because sea man are known for avoiding them, he really should have seen this coming :smallbiggrin:

nedz

2012-07-19, 08:06 AM

Warlocks can only let themselves fly not the whole party, likewise half-fey (and half fey must be level 3). A 7th lv wiz is only casting that spell maybe twice and an 8th lv sorc would exhaust the entirety of their high level spells just to cast it on himself plus three others (hope you don't have companions/mounts). As for a flying carpet: If the DM gave it to them he can't complain if they USE IT!

Half-Fey (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) can have flight at level 2.

As for the others, well these depend upon the party.
A Large/Strong flyer can carry small light party members.
You could, quite easily, have an entire party which had these and similar options available.

Bloodgruve

2012-07-19, 09:28 AM

Kelb_Panthera

2012-07-19, 12:35 PM

Really great information and discussions in this thread. I'm dedicated to being a good DM and running a game that my players enjoy. This will help me watch out for situations that could degrade the game.

Whats so fun about being a PC? All the kool stuff you can do, I want to allow my players to explore that but I need to know what I'm up against so I can keep the encounters challenging. Flight has always been a concern for me but I can't take it away or limit it.

TYVM
Blood~

I applaud your attitude and your proactive thinking, good sir.

I agree you shouldn't take flight away, but I think that myself and others have presented a fair number of ways to limit it, at least occasionally. Occasionally limiting the players' abilities is simply a way to challenge their critical thinking skills, and can make for a more interesting game, imho.

kharmakazy

2012-07-19, 12:52 PM

Which is of course an excellent reason to argue for it not to be included in a list of problems a newbie DM should watch out for.:smallconfused:

I'd like to think there's more than one way to run a game, but apparently not.

Kharmakazy, would it be fair to say that your objection is largely a violent rejection of any DMing style that would allow this to be perceived as a problem in the first place?

Would you agree that people do in fact run games in a contrary style, however much you may disapprove?

Because it strikes me that you're objecting not so much to the idea that flight creates issues that need to be compensated for, so much as you are rejecting the idea that the DM might seek to alter the game for the sake of the plot, rather than adjust the plot in accordance with the game.

Might we call this an ideological objection? However well founded it might be? Could that perhaps explain why your posts are quite so vehement, and contain so many insults and accusations? Because you're arguing against a DMing style that you feel is actively detrimental to the game?

There is nothing insulting in any of my posts. Just statements of fact and opinion.

If you consider running a game that doesn't take into account the possible actions of your players a "style" rather than a "mistake" and then proceed to punish the players for it, then there are other issues that need to be dealt with that are beyond my reckoning.

Aegis013

2012-07-19, 01:08 PM

...
YOU are the problem.

...Lack of knowing and understanding the rules is a mistake YOU are making,

Not wanting to plan around flight is just unabashed laziness...

There is nothing insulting in any of my posts. Just statements of fact and opinion.

May I recommend you caveat your language as to alert people that you are not intending to bash them or their view? Because it is not a far fetched thing to interpret your posts as directly insulting your opposition.

I do not mean to say I think you are insulting your opposition. Simply that it could easily be interpreted that way. Especially by someone who you are already debating opposing views with, as they will likely feel defensive.

Bloodgruve

2012-07-19, 02:09 PM

I applaud your attitude and your proactive thinking, good sir.

I agree you shouldn't take flight away, but I think that myself and others have presented a fair number of ways to limit it, at least occasionally. Occasionally limiting the players' abilities is simply a way to challenge their critical thinking skills, and can make for a more interesting game, imho.

Thank you, I have DM'd in the past but the last game I ran was a bit confusing to the players and I made the mistake of not allowing them to take a ship rather than the lightning rail because of my kickass awesome train encounter :/ I took a break to be a player for a while and I have a short list of what I want now which I will translate to the DM seat.

If a character builds to be a bomber with fly I'll support him in that, hell if everyone wants to be bombers they can because that's what they want. Its my job to simply present fun challenges to them. They would learn soon enough that falling damage sux ;) They will hopefully get some recognition after 7th level and challenges may come equipped to take on these celebrities with well known tactics.

Thanks

Blood~

Doug Lampert

2012-07-19, 02:27 PM

As for a flying carpet: If the DM gave it to them he can't complain if they USE IT!

And if they craft it or commission it instead? Or just buy it in a city large enough that it fits within the allowable items.

Does the GM also get the blame for giving them a setting with a city of 25,000 and for letting them take feats?

ahenobarbi

2012-07-19, 03:54 PM

And if they craft it or commission it instead? Or just buy it in a city large enough that it fits within the allowable items.

Does the GM also get the blame for giving them a setting with a city of 25,000 and for letting them take feats?

No DM gets blame for not talking with player about it.

Spuddles

2012-07-19, 04:01 PM

Flying is exactly as big a problem as walking is. If you plan all your encounters in one room then the ability to move away from that room is going to break your game.

You don't do that because you instinctively know that people can walk.

If you know people can fly, you plan your encounters the same way. There are not "solutions" to flying because it isn't a problem.

YOU are the problem.

If you plan your game based around the idea that none of the PCs are going to wear armor then full plate ruins everything.

Lack of knowing and understanding the rules is a mistake YOU are making, not something that is being inflicted upon you by the spell.

5 pages in and you're still tilting this strawman? Do you know what tier 1 means? Per JaronK's definition, it means to have the power to easily take the campaign off its rails. This has absolutely nothing to do with encounters. Your full plate example suggests that you don't really understand the discussion at hand.

kharmakazy

2012-07-19, 05:00 PM

Zale

2012-07-19, 05:28 PM

I think that Magic Missile is overpowered.

THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN AVOID IT IS MAGIC!

So unfair. :smalltongue:

Sewercop

2012-07-19, 08:09 PM

5 pages in and you're still tilting this strawman? Do you know what tier 1 means? Per JaronK's definition, it means to have the power to easily take the campaign off its rails. This has absolutely nothing to do with encounters. Your full plate example suggests that you don't really understand the discussion at hand.

This is not a jaronk class discussion. This is a discussion about tier 1 spells.
Could be a discussion about tier 1 gear as well, since alot of the spells are easy and cheap to get in items. But obviously im wrong.. Since i share kharmakazys view i mean.

Why is all this about flight? flight are not broken in 3,5. It might break your group. But thats because you are either a lazy gm,unwilling to learn rules and system or a newbie gm. If you cant handle flight in 3.5 you need step up or play lower levels. People in this thread says a ship breaks a group?
If a ship breaks your group, flight will crush it like a can.

Flight = broken? hell no..
Polymorh? more broken.. Does it rear its ugly head in groups as often as flight?(personal exp) nope. because people dont like the hassle of changing stats and keeping records. The exact same reason most people ive talked with dont like casters in 3.5.

I got two questions for those that think flight is broken...
Why? specific reasons would be great.
And what is your view on prestigeclass dipping and jumping around classses?
The last one are not relevant for this thread. Im just curious if my thoughts are correct.(yes im that shallow)

Curmudgeon

2012-07-19, 08:23 PM

I think that Magic Missile is overpowered.

THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN AVOID IT IS MAGIC!
I know you're trying to be funny, but there's a straightforward way to avoid Magic Missile without magic: just Hide. You can't be targeted if you can't be seen.

kharmakazy

2012-07-19, 08:29 PM

I know you're trying to be funny, but there's a straightforward way to avoid Magic Missile without magic: just Hide. You can't be targeted if you can't be seen.

But.. that's how you avoid nearly everything. It's not exactly case specific.

Togo

2012-07-19, 08:55 PM

This is not a jaronk class discussion. This is a discussion about tier 1 spells.

Not exactly. See the OP. I agree that the title of the thread is misleading though.

But obviously im wrong.. Since i share kharmakazys view i mean.

Has anyone said so? There have been claims that he's missed the point, but that doesn't make what he said wrong, just not particularly relevent.

Why is all this about flight? flight are not broken in 3,5.

This isn't a discussion about what is broken in 3.5

It might break your group. But thats because you are either a lazy gm,unwilling to learn rules and system or a newbie gm.

A newbie GM like the OP, for example?

If you cant handle flight in 3.5 you need step up or play lower levels.

So how would you go about 'stepping up'? How about going to a board like this one and asking for advice? Because that's what this thread is.

I'd say that's a pretty positive step. I wish more of my DMs did it. Not because the boards are always right, but simply because getting a diversity of views in really useful in working out what to do in your game.

People in this thread says a ship breaks a group?

Nope. They don't.

I got two questions for those that think flight is broken...
Why? specific reasons would be great.

I haven't noticed any such people on this thread, so you may not get a direct reply.

And what is your view on prestigeclass dipping and jumping around classses? The last one are not relevant for this thread. Im just curious if my thoughts are correct.(yes im that shallow)

Personally? I'm in favour, but then I tend to run games where prestige classes are really just abstract options for character development. If you're running a game where prestige classes are special training granted by organisations in your game-world, then you might find that dipping and jumping around would lead to problems with the group who is taking the trouble to train you.

I don't see how either view could be 'correct', since different things work for different games.

I hope that helps. You seem like a reasonable person, and I think the topic of the thread is subtly different from what you seem to think it is, hence the confusion. We're not discussing whether a game should be adpated to flying characters, but why and how.

Spuddles

2012-07-19, 10:51 PM

I actually agree with what kharmakrazy is saying, just think it has little bearing to what sparked this discussion in the first place- sonofzeal's copypasta from tvtropes on what is a STORY breaker. It's been mentioned previously, and articulately I thought, by I forget who (eggs?), but what breaks the game tactictally vs storywise. Teleport circle gets you the tippyverse. That is goddamn story breaking. Metamagic orbs of nonsense get you basically an uber charger with poor endurance. Some may say orb of nonsense is broken, but the context in which it is broken is vastly different than shapechange, planar binding, scry, or all those other badass spells that make batman the goddamn batman.

Flight is a relatively minor story breaker, imo, compared to teleport effects and many many divinations. Most novel modes of movement can be pretty crazy. Like getting burrow from mineral warrior at ecl 2ish.

Snowbluff

2012-07-19, 10:57 PM

But.. that's how you avoid nearly everything. It's not exactly case specific.

The Shield Spells (Shield, Nightshield, etc) block it out right. Shield can be taken at level one, so it wouldn't be unfair to throw it out against MM spammers.

ShadowPsyker

2012-07-20, 12:31 AM

Half-Fey (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) can have flight at level 2.

As for the others, well these depend upon the party.
A Large/Strong flyer can carry small light party members.
You could, quite easily, have an entire party which had these and similar options available.

Half fey also have to have something that gives them a HD.

And if they craft it or commission it instead? Or just buy it in a city large enough that it fits within the allowable items.

Does the GM also get the blame for giving them a setting with a city of 25,000 and for letting them take feats?

A flying carpet that can take the whole party (assuming all are medium or less) is 60k and has a required caster level of ten. If you let your players make this before they are 10th lv (or 8th for artificer) then it's a choice you made as DM to allow flight at lower levels through DM fudging. As for finding it in town; The DM has control over everything in town no matter the size! It is a popular item and as such will usually either go fast or have a hiked up price if even available. To commission 1 takes two months (assuming the maker can fill the order immediately), I would hope you don't just let your players sit on their hands for two months while the plot hangs out waiting for them.

Spuddles

2012-07-20, 12:54 AM

Half fey also have to have something that gives them a HD.

A flying carpet that can take the whole party (assuming all are medium or less) is 60k and has a required caster level of ten. If you let your players make this before they are 10th lv (or 8th for artificer) then it's a choice you made as DM to allow flight at lower levels through DM fudging. As for finding it in town; The DM has control over everything in town no matter the size! It is a popular item and as such will usually either go fast or have a hiked up price if even available. To commission 1 takes two months (assuming the maker can fill the order immediately), I would hope you don't just let your players sit on their hands for two months while the plot hangs out waiting for them.

This is a classic "oberoni" fallacy. This argument is identical to the argument that wizard, druids, monks, and truenamers are not broken, because the DM can always make up rules. If it wasn't problematic in the first place, then you wouldn't have to make up rules!

Granted, flight is a relatively poor argument, as far as spells go. I think arcane eye and dimension door are more problematic than flight. Both are accessible by an artifice at level 5.

Though the relative ease one can get burrow and flight via core only stuff by level 5 certainly makes one wonder why castles would be popular defensive fortifications.

Ashtagon

2012-07-20, 01:19 AM

fwiw, in my games, I more or less ban any spell that gives characters a new mode of strategic movement outright. And new modes of movement in a tactical context are are limited by duration so as to avoid being breakers (e.g. my fly spell has a duration in rounds).

This does of course limit some of the more far-out high magic fantasy concepts, but it makes it infinitely easier to make low-magic stories, which is my preference.

ShadowPsyker

2012-07-20, 01:21 AM

This is a classic "oberoni" fallacy. This argument is identical to the argument that wizard, druids, monks, and truenamers are not broken, because the DM can always make up rules. If it wasn't problematic in the first place, then you wouldn't have to make up rules!

Granted, flight is a relatively poor argument, as far as spells go. I think arcane eye and dimension door are more problematic than flight. Both are accessible by an artifice at level 5.

Though the relative ease one can get burrow and flight via core only stuff by level 5 certainly makes one wonder why castles would be popular defensive fortifications.

Make up rules?! What made up rules? If the party wants to wait 2 months then they have to wait two months. Not to mention the 60K they somehow came up with at low levels. Do you mean availability? That's not a new rule! That's economics. Supply and demand. If it takes two months to make a highly sought after item, that's two months worth of potential customers lining up to buy it.
And by the way; a 20th level caster would have to cast D-Door 5 times to go 1 mile.

fwiw, in my games, I more or less ban any spell that gives characters a new mode of strategic movement outright. And new modes of movement in a tactical context are are limited by duration so as to avoid being breakers (e.g. my fly spell has a duration in rounds).

This does of course limit some of the more far-out high magic fantasy concepts, but it makes it infinitely easier to make low-magic stories, which is my preference.

Not trying to be a jerk, but perhaps you wouldn't have made this suggestion if you had Eberron then. It is the definition of a high magic game. And it's the world the OP will be running.

Spuddles

2012-07-20, 02:29 AM

Kelb_Panthera

2012-07-20, 02:33 AM

Ashtagon

2012-07-20, 02:44 AM

This is a rather gross misuse of "oberoni fallacy." No one is making up rules to fix a problematic mechanic. We're coming up with solutions to a potential problem using the mechanics that are already there. Your players do the same thing every time they make a contingency (not the spell or magic item,) in case plan-A fails. E.g. a player says, "if stabbing it doesn't work, the wizard can set it on fire with a fireball."

Perhaps "Oberoni Fallacy" is the wrong term. I wasn't here when the term was defined. What I do know, however, is that easy access to unusual methods of travel can and does routinely break the standard tropes of a fantasy campaign, and when examined in detail, makes the existing political set-up look non-sensical and the current campaign setting rulers blasé about security to the point of idiocy.

Ashtagon

2012-07-20, 02:50 AM

Not trying to be a jerk, but perhaps you wouldn't have made this suggestion if you had Eberron then. It is the definition of a high magic game. And it's the world the OP will be running.

Not trying to be a jerk, but Eberron was actually written to be noir, not high magic.

Edit: Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebps/20040604a) is an archived interview with the original author. I don't see anything that says the party should have easy access to high magic because of the nature of the setting (beyond the fact that it was written for D&D, but there's low magic settings written for D&D too, so that's not a meaningful point).

ShadowPsyker

2012-07-20, 04:13 AM

Re: dimension door

Clever use of Dimension Door murders dungeon crawls (one of the D's of D&D). Unless you want to ward every single dungeon against teleport effects, you're gonna have to accept that they're going to get rolled over.

Only if you know the layout of the dungeon. False doors, unexpected drops, heck how many houses have you seen in real life that had sharp turns in a corridor or a door that suddenly drops into a basement you didn't know about. If the DM made the dungeon on graph paper to be a generic 2-dimensional crawl, then yeah players will figure that out. But that assumes your dungeon is a predictable 2-d space.

Not trying to be a jerk, but Eberron was actually written to be noir, not high magic.

Intent does not equal result.
Direct quote from the introduction of the Eberron Campaign setting under Tone of Eberron;
"Magic is built into the very fabric of the setting. It pervades and influences everyday life."

And Number 3 under the things you need to know (Section: The world). It blatantly says there is a "working class of minor mages."

Note: If you read that as high level magic, that is not the case. High magic campaigns feature high instances of magic in a routine or at least common way. I used the term high magic in direct opposition to the term low magic. Correct me if i'm wrong, you were the one who said you prefer low-magic settings?

sonofzeal

2012-07-20, 04:38 AM

Only if you know the layout of the dungeon. False doors, unexpected drops, heck how many houses have you seen in real life that had sharp turns in a corridor or a door that suddenly drops into a basement you didn't know about. If the DM made the dungeon on graph paper to be a generic 2-dimensional crawl, then yeah players will figure that out. But that assumes your dungeon is a predictable 2-d space.

Intent does not equal result.
Direct quote from the introduction of the Eberron Campaign setting under Tone of Eberron;
"Magic is built into the very fabric of the setting. It pervades and influences everyday life."
Note: If you read that as high level magic, that is not the case. High magic campaigns feature high instances of magic in a routine or at least common way. I used the term high magic in direct opposition to the term low magic. Correct me if i'm wrong, you were the one who said you prefer low-magic settings?
I think we can agree that the term doesn't always carry the necessary nuance. Personally, I would call Faerun "High Magic". Magic is omnipresent and darn near omni-potent too. The Wizard In His Tower is a force to which even kings must bow, and the dazzling use (and abuse) of magic can define or even shatter empires.

Eberron is more mage-punk. It's exploring some of the consequences of magic in the setting, just like cyberpunk explores the consequences of more and more advanced computing. But the magic is not "high". It's generally gritty, down-to-earth stuff. It's treated more like another tool than like eldritch lore.

"High Magic" tends to imply both high quantity and high quality. Faerun does have both; Eberron has quantity without quality. Dark Sun might be a contender for having quality without quantity - a Sorcerer-King in Dark Sun is nigh unto a god, but the number of people who can use magic well is small to say the least. Point is, I think the terminology of "high magic"/"low magic" breaks down in these contexts.

ShadowPsyker

2012-07-20, 04:43 AM

I think we can agree that the term doesn't always carry the necessary nuance. Personally, I would call Faerun "High Magic". Magic is omnipresent and darn near omni-potent too. The Wizard In His Tower is a force to which even kings must bow, and the dazzling use (and abuse) of magic can define or even shatter empires.

Eberron is more mage-punk. It's exploring some of the consequences of magic in the setting, just like cyberpunk explores the consequences of more and more advanced computing. But the magic is not "high". It's generally gritty, down-to-earth stuff. It's treated more like another tool than like eldritch lore.

"High Magic" tends to imply both high quantity and high quality. Faerun does have both; Eberron has quantity without quality. Dark Sun might be a contender for having quality without quantity - a Sorcerer-King in Dark Sun is nigh unto a god, but the number of people who can use magic well is small to say the least. Point is, I think the terminology of "high magic"/"low magic" breaks down in these contexts.

I used High magic in direct response to his/her use of the phrase low magic. Personally I prefer the term High fantasy, indicating magic/supernatural is common place.

Togo

2012-07-20, 05:37 AM

I used High magic in direct response to his/her use of the phrase low magic. Personally I prefer the term High fantasy, indicating magic/supernatural is common place.

Trouble is, high fantasy also carries connetations of broad sweeping epic events and characters involved in history in the making. Low fantasy deals with personal events and a more gritty storyline. Either can be high or low magic.

The team of thief wizards crouching in sewer water trying to work out which commerically available variation of Gringle's wards are set on the secret door, so they can swipe this month's shipment of municiple spellcomponents, may well be high magic, but its' not high fantasy.

Lord of Rings is a reasonably low magic setting, but it's probably the most often quoted example of high fantasy.

Ashtagon

2012-07-20, 05:58 AM

I used High magic in direct response to his/her use of the phrase low magic. Personally I prefer the term High fantasy, indicating magic/supernatural is common place.

Dude, if you want to be offensive, why not go the whole hog and use "shim" as a pronoun? My gender is clearly marked on this forum. No need to be offensive by deliberately being "confused" about it.

ShadowPsyker

2012-07-20, 06:07 AM

Dude, if you want to be offensive, why not go the whole hog and use "shim" as a pronoun? My gender is clearly marked on this forum. No need to be offensive by deliberately being "confused" about it.

I'm not being offensive. I did not notice the gender icon until you pointed it out. I've only been a member for a little over a month. The name ended in a consonant, but i noticed the avatar was female and did not know/nor did a want to assume. And why would being male even be offensive? I'm male and so I tend to think of others as male. You could of just private messaged me to fix the post instead of making it a public issue and accusing me of being intentionally inflammatory.

Trouble is, high fantasy also carries connetations of broad sweeping epic events and characters involved in history in the making. Low fantasy deals with personal events and a more gritty storyline. Either can be high or low magic.

The team of thief wizards crouching in sewer water trying to work out which commerically available variation of Gringle's wards are set on the secret door, so they can swipe this month's shipment of municiple spellcomponents, may well be high magic, but its' not high fantasy.

Lord of Rings is a reasonably low magic setting, but it's probably the most often quoted example of high fantasy.

I said I prefer the term. I did not say the term was accurate, nor did I in fact use the term in my argument.

Note: My original point stands, regardless of nit picking, Eberron is designed and encouraged to be a world filled with magical creatures, magic users, and magic items as common as high tech devices in our world. If I am wrong PROVE IT! I'm tired of individuals points/arguments being lost amid personal preferences of style or terminology. I am not here to engage in a flame war or to deride someones personal choice of world. I play both types of world with mixes in tone and frequency of the supernatural. The OP specified Eberron, so we are discussing that!

Spuddles

2012-07-20, 06:34 AM

This is a rather gross misuse of "oberoni fallacy." No one is making up rules to fix a problematic mechanic. We're coming up with solutions to a potential problem using the mechanics that are already there. Your players do the same thing every time they make a contingency (not the spell or magic item,) in case plan-A fails. E.g. a player says, "if stabbing it doesn't work, the wizard can set it on fire with a fireball."

I use oberoni fallacy because it's what we're all familiar with. The actual formal term for arguments of that form escapes me. Perhaps law of the excluded middle?

But see, you understand when I use the term oberoni:

X is a problem
But you can do Y
Therefore X is not a problem.

Or more formally

X
Y
.:~X

Definitely law of excluded middle. Either X is true or ~X, but not both.

Eldan

2012-07-20, 07:01 AM

I tend to use the terms Wide Magic and Narrow Magic together with High and Low Magic, but that's just me. So Faerun is Wide High Magic, Eberron is Wide Low Magic, Dark Sun is Narrow High Magic. I can't think of any D&D setting that is Narrow Low Magic, actually.

Ashtagon

2012-07-20, 07:06 AM

Togo

2012-07-20, 08:11 AM

Note: My original point stands, regardless of nit picking, Eberron is designed and encouraged to be a world filled with magical creatures, magic users, and magic items as common as high tech devices in our world.

Yes and no. Sure the fact that it was an Eberron game means that strategies to limit availability are less useful, but then the same is true of your plan to limit availability through long delivery times. There's only so long you can stretch out the magic item buying process before it becomes unworkable, precisely because Eberron is a game where magic is common and typically available.

It's different plans for different games. In a game where you're dealing with a tight timeline, your plan would be pretty cool. If your worried about limiting availability to a flying carpet not just for a particular situation, but for the campaign in general, then it won't work in the long run. That's the point of discussing lots of different options.

nedz

2012-07-20, 08:25 AM

Half-Fey (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) can have flight at level 2.Half fey also have to have something that gives them a HD.

Did you read the link ?:smallconfused:

Its the Savage Species web extract which defines racial levels for a number of races, Half-Fey included.

Cor1

2012-07-20, 11:51 AM

>Faerun
>High-magic world

Haha no. It's supposed to be one, but just go invent a Teleport Circle and intrigue just enough to set one between two cities : setting goes BOOM and ends in Tippyverse and even their (laughably unoptimized) Gods won't be able to do jack about it, let alone their NPCs (see Gods). One spells and you simply break the timeline. Hard.

Each and every named Wizard of Faerun is supposed to be a genius whose intelligence rewrites reality, but not one of them is ever as well-prepared as the Standard PC, including Monks (whose list of Necessary Magic Items does all the work). You know, that list that goes "Flight, Miss chances, True Sight, Mind Blank, Death Ward, Tactical teleportation, Daze/Stun Immunity" etc.

Faerun as a high-magic world is a joke in 3.5. But then, a 3.5 setting that's not a Tippyverse is destined to be conquered by that one at some point anyway, as a logical consequence of the party Magic-Users using their class features.

If I can articulate it right this time...

If there's a Wizard in your campaign, and he uses spells, then at high levelos you'll be playing in a Tippy-esque world, because the writers had no idea what 3.5 magic could do. No official setting was ever published that took the rules, a blank sheet, and thought up "Okay. What happens in the world where these apply?'"

It's true that it has to start at some point, and that taking into account the natural consequence of ubiquitous communications networks (basically, telepathy for everyone not permanently Mind Blanked), which is functionally equivalent to a confused Hive-mind. It still means Singularity happens soon after.

Back to the subject : WotC screwed up so much the magic system in 3.5 that you can't tell any standard fantasy story using it, without having your NPCs be completely stupid or fatally ignorant about their world, beginning with the Intelligence-powered supposed-genius Wizards.

No, really. No way around it. Why did the PCs win the quest? Because the antagonist didn't have (or wasn't) a good enough Wizard. Problem, a PC is one? EZBake Elf Generalist Wizard five levels above him, problem solved forever.

Tyndmyr

2012-07-20, 11:58 AM

I will be running a new Eberron campaign shortly. I'm looking at throttling back the t1's depending on the new players.

What are the game breaking spells that I should watch out for? Gate, Wish, polymorph and stuff like that?

I've never had the opportunity to play a higher level caster and I'm not familiar with the territory.

TYVM
Blood

Honestly, if you're not familiar with higher level casters...don't modify them wholesale.

Just start at a lower level, and let the casters develop naturally. Problems may never arise, and even if they do, the very few problems you encounter may not be anything listed here.

For instance, I LOVE contact other plane. Seeds misinformation frequently, and allows me an avenue to pass out plot hooks.

I tend to use the terms Wide Magic and Narrow Magic together with High and Low Magic, but that's just me. So Faerun is Wide High Magic, Eberron is Wide Low Magic, Dark Sun is Narrow High Magic. I can't think of any D&D setting that is Narrow Low Magic, actually.

Kingdoms of Kalimar.

Note that this was actually a terrible decision, but technically, it does exist.

ShadowPsyker

2012-07-20, 01:08 PM

Yes and no. Sure the fact that it was an Eberron game means that strategies to limit availability are less useful, but then the same is true of your plan to limit availability through long delivery times. There's only so long you can stretch out the magic item buying process before it becomes unworkable, precisely because Eberron is a game where magic is common and typically available.

It's different plans for different games. In a game where you're dealing with a tight timeline, your plan would be pretty cool. If your worried about limiting availability to a flying carpet not just for a particular situation, but for the campaign in general, then it won't work in the long run. That's the point of discussing lots of different options.

What plan to limit delivery time? I don't remember anything about stretching out the buying process.

Did you read the link ?:smallconfused:

Its the Savage Species web extract which defines racial levels for a number of races, Half-Fey included.

That assumes web-enhancements are being used by the DM. I never assume web enhancements, third party supplements or dungeon/dragon magazine articles are automatically allowed. Regardless, this doesn't change the fact that it only helps that character and not the group.

If there's a Wizard in your campaign, and he uses spells, then at high levelos you'll be playing in a Tippy-esque world, because the writers had no idea what 3.5 magic could do. No official setting was ever published that took the rules, a blank sheet, and thought up "Okay. What happens in the world where these apply?'"

It's true that it has to start at some point, and that taking into account the natural consequence of ubiquitous communications networks (basically, telepathy for everyone not permanently Mind Blanked), which is functionally equivalent to a confused Hive-mind. It still means Singularity happens soon after.

Back to the subject : WotC screwed up so much the magic system in 3.5 that you can't tell any standard fantasy story using it, without having your NPCs be completely stupid or fatally ignorant about their world, beginning with the Intelligence-powered supposed-genius Wizards.

No, really. No way around it. Why did the PCs win the quest? Because the antagonist didn't have (or wasn't) a good enough Wizard. Problem, a PC is one? EZBake Elf Generalist Wizard five levels above him, problem solved forever.

Tippyverse only works if you completely ignore the fact that 1) mordenkainen's disjunction exists, and 2) that to make an infinite wish trap would cost enough Xp to jump a 20th level wizard to 23rd (what wizard is gonna give up three epic levels, PC or NPC).

Kelb_Panthera

2012-07-20, 02:03 PM

I use oberoni fallacy because it's what we're all familiar with. The actual formal term for arguments of that form escapes me. Perhaps law of the excluded middle?

But see, you understand when I use the term oberoni:

X is a problem
But you can do Y
Therefore X is not a problem.

Or more formally

X
Y
.:~X

Definitely law of excluded middle. Either X is true or ~X, but not both.

Potentialy problematic =/= automatically a problem.

Your argument amounts to, "walking is a problem if you don't want the party to go anywhere," or, "swimming is a problem if you want the party to stay out of the water."

Repeat: The potential for a problem does not make a problem, unless it's never addressed.

Tyndmyr

2012-07-20, 02:11 PM

Tippyverse only works if you completely ignore the fact that 1) mordenkainen's disjunction exists, and 2) that to make an infinite wish trap would cost enough Xp to jump a 20th level wizard to 23rd (what wizard is gonna give up three epic levels, PC or NPC).

Tippyverse is not reliant on wish traps, and Emp Tippy himself noted the substantial cost of setting up a wish trap.

Thousand points of Light(the definitive example of the Tippyverse) was based around populous cities surrounded by untraveled wilderness populated by increasingly lethal monsters farther from civilization. It WAS high-magic, and certainly the occasional wish got tossed around, but disjunction is considered merely another weapon in this world(albeit a destructive one), and infinite wish traps were not central to the premise.

Really, if you haven't read up on the tippyverse, go do so, instead of relying on some amorphous idea that gets bandied around.

ShadowPsyker

2012-07-20, 02:53 PM

Tippyverse is not reliant on wish traps, and Emp Tippy himself noted the substantial cost of setting up a wish trap.

Thousand points of Light(the definitive example of the Tippyverse) was based around populous cities surrounded by untraveled wilderness populated by increasingly lethal monsters farther from civilization. It WAS high-magic, and certainly the occasional wish got tossed around, but disjunction is considered merely another weapon in this world(albeit a destructive one), and infinite wish traps were not central to the premise.

Really, if you haven't read up on the tippyverse, go do so, instead of relying on some amorphous idea that gets bandied around.

So the part under currency which explicitly states that wish traps are the most common way to mint their money is somehow "my amorphous idea?"
And for the record; the whole reason behind the tippyverse is Tele-circle; which can be auto-negated by disjunction. When your enemies can send in a rogue with a relatively cheap scroll to disable your expensive primary mode of movement, the concept takes a steep dip into "whoops... forgot about that one" territory.

If that's not enough to derail teleports; forbiddance.

Game Note: Disjunction automatically ends ongoing spells with no check required, and an Artificer specialized in making scrolls can do so at 15th level for less than 2K.

Tyndmyr

2012-07-20, 03:01 PM

So the part under currency which explicitly states that wish traps are the most common way to mint their money is somehow "my amorphous idea?"
And for the record; the whole reason behind the tippyverse is Tele-circle; which can be auto-negated by disjunction. When your enemies can send in a rogue with a relatively cheap scroll to disable your expensive primary mode of movement, the concept takes a steep dip into "whoops... forgot about that one" territory.

If that's not enough to derail teleports; forbiddance.

The fact that a counter-spell exists does not make the original spell irrelevant. Sure, you can destroy a teleport circle. That doesn't change that they are GREAT means of trade, and pretty logical for warfare.

Also, level 9 spells are not generally considered a "relatively cheap scroll". And that rogue would almost certainly be exposed and in trouble post-cast. It's a weak plan at best.

Additionally, it's worth noting that wish can transport people, ignoring forbiddance. Oh, certainly, in a high magic world, important areas will be protected. That is obvious. However, the ability to shield a small area from teleportation circle does not stop it from being immensely useful to travel to...the rest of the entire world.

The wish-traps are not essential to creating currency. Wishes are. This can be obtained from genies or whatever. This is a side point at best, and existence of the wish traps themselves is basically irrelevant. If you feel that investing in a stable currency fits your world...awesome. If nobody is rich enough to pull that off...also awesome.

ShadowPsyker

2012-07-20, 04:22 PM

The fact that a counter-spell exists does not make the original spell irrelevant. Sure, you can destroy a teleport circle. That doesn't change that they are GREAT means of trade, and pretty logical for warfare.

Also, level 9 spells are not generally considered a "relatively cheap scroll". And that rogue would almost certainly be exposed and in trouble post-cast. It's a weak plan at best.

Additionally, it's worth noting that wish can transport people, ignoring forbiddance. Oh, certainly, in a high magic world, important areas will be protected. That is obvious. However, the ability to shield a small area from teleportation circle does not stop it from being immensely useful to travel to...the rest of the entire world.

The wish-traps are not essential to creating currency. Wishes are. This can be obtained from genies or whatever. This is a side point at best, and existence of the wish traps themselves is basically irrelevant. If you feel that investing in a stable currency fits your world...awesome. If nobody is rich enough to pull that off...also awesome.

First: The fact the wish traps are a staple of the tippyverse should have (at a minimum) gotten an apology from you in regards to that ascerbic post aimed at me.
Second: If you think the rogue would be in trouble; contingency (teleport when he succeeds at the scroll), or just throw invis on him with mind blank, then he runs/flies/burrows/teleports away. My point was merely to show that the opposing wizard does not even have to bother showing up himself.
Third: If used en masse for an army a simple Disjunction can completely screw your plan and you would otherwise be forced to use dozens of wishes to maneuver your army into place. And anything an opposing force can do with called Djinn the defenders can undo with their own. Anything used by the attacking wizards is in the tool box for the defenders as well. This doesn't even consider the fact that the enemy can use spy's, assassinations, and divination's to gather info all the way down to a simple augury spell with a question similar to "would today be a good day to focus on the eastern front?"
Fourth: one wish can give you the money to make several 9th level scrolls especially since that Artificer I mentioned would only need about a thousand gold.
Fifth: Small area! Read forbiddance. And it's shapeable. You can throw a dome of protective energy over your entire city with enough castings. Then when you're done, do it again further out and/or further in, just to have back-ups.

The biggest fallacy in the tippyverse scenario, is to assume that just because the big dogs have gone to play in their own super corporation-like trade deals that somehow trade between lesser towns will simply dry up. Economics does not work that way. A vacuum in the economy will be filled. IRL Trade does not occur only between ports/airports. Trade is intrinsic to society. People to this day still live in inhospitable regions with no real industry, but they soldier on because that's what real humans do when we're not just a statistics block on someones DM sheet.

Cor1

2012-07-21, 07:59 AM

First: The fact the wish traps are a staple of the tippyverse should have (at a minimum) gotten an apology from you in regards to that ascerbic post aimed at me.

The Wish traps are footnote. The important Traps ones are Create Food & Water, True Creation and Fabricate. And there are ways to not spend XP when making stuff. A pair of Thought Bottles and your Artificer is always at most 500 below his normal XP.

Second: If you think the rogue would be in trouble; contingency (teleport when he succeeds at the scroll), or just throw invis on him with mind blank, then he runs/flies/burrows/teleports away. My point was merely to show that the opposing wizard does not even have to bother showing up himself.

Third: If used en masse for an army a simple Disjunction can completely screw your plan and you would otherwise be forced to use dozens of wishes to maneuver your army into place. And anything an opposing force can do with called Djinn the defenders can undo with their own. Anything used by the attacking wizards is in the tool box for the defenders as well. This doesn't even consider the fact that the enemy can use spy's, assassinations, and divination's to gather info all the way down to a simple augury spell with a question similar to "would today be a good day to focus on the eastern front?"

The funny thing is that Divination/Augury etc. will not even consider the influence of anyone important enough to be perma-Mind Blanked, i.e. anyone important at all. So they might work great for fortune-telling to peons, but for what concerns a City? Not going to work. Your example, "would today be a good day to focus on the eastern front?" will say YES if all important factors in the potential battle are permanently Mind Blanked (and if they're not, they're obviously not important enough).

Fourth: one wish can give you the money to make several 9th level scrolls especially since that Artificer I mentioned would only need about a thousand gold.

Yay! WBLMancy, or how to generate free spells with spells. Never heard that one before!

Fifth: Small area! Read forbiddance. And it's shapeable. You can throw a dome of protective energy over your entire city with enough castings. Then when you're done, do it again further out and/or further in, just to have back-ups.

Yeah, that's addressed in the Tippyverse threads. Forbiddance has a terrible weakness: adjacent zones merge into the same spell effect. Thus, Wish-port a Warblade in the protected zone, who proceeds to IronHeartSurge it away and then get back by normal Contingencied Teleport to signal the sendoff of the army through the Teleport Circles.

The biggest fallacy in the tippyverse scenario, is to assume that just because the big dogs have gone to play in their own super corporation-like trade deals that somehow trade between lesser towns will simply dry up. Economics does not work that way. A vacuum in the economy will be filled. IRL Trade does not occur only between ports/airports. Trade is intrinsic to society. People to this day still live in inhospitable regions with no real industry, but they soldier on because that's what real humans do when we're not just a statistics block on someones DM sheet.

IRL Trade does not occur with human-powered chariots either. Yes, some unimportant, small-scale, local trade does. But all large-scale shipments go through standardized containers in boats, and all important things (like rare hardware needed on short notice, or very specialized people) go through planes.

ShadowPsyker

2012-07-21, 02:48 PM

To Cor1

1) Create food and water is a divine spell granted by the gods (or one god/whatever). Abuse, especially multi-million people abuse, could easily get it revoked & if your people require these to eat; Disjunction can end that real quick but making a new one takes a lot longer. (also; -500 xp vs wiz popping over and spending 0 xp [in a war of attrition the guy not losing xp wins]). Note: They are not a footnote. It is listed under coinage as "The Most Common." Just because you agree with his insult towards me does not make him or you right.
2) Regardless of individuals with mindblank, detrimental effects to your city/nation will still regesiter even if the entire invading force is mindblanked. Their mindblank extends to themselves and their equipment, not everything they ever touch or destroy or kill.
3) Says nothing about the xp cost, lets face it fabricate can make you rich in one day with the right circumstances, and again; NOT REQUIRED! Only listed to point out the wizard doesn't have to go himself. If he does go himself he can strip high level magic items away because he'll have his full save DC.
4) Iron heart surge ends the effect, not the spell that generates the effect. Just because he can ignore it doesn't mean the entire spell ceases to function for everyone else too. (note: if you choose to interpret the rules that way, that's your own personal problem. Have fun ending time and gravity and whatever else the DM let's you do. I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume the DM looking for advice on limiting his game is not one of those people).
5) What's your point? You specifically state Large-scale shipments. The world does not function on large scale shipments alone. I really don't see why you mention this because it still means small-time trade happens and villages don't dry up. A vacuum in the economy will be filled.
Point of Order: Hannibal ransacked Rome, stomping through destroying everything in his path, but in the end could not take the big city. The peasants came back, rebuilt and continued with their peasant lives. Rampaging armies are not new to D&D. History is littered with instances of terrible campaigns of destruction and salt the earth mentalities.

In an attempt to pre-refute some of the future, erroneous arguments;
1) Even if you assume the gods are so lackadaisical as to simply allow this abuse, the second part of the argument is the most salient point anyway.
2) If they're not touching/destroying/killing or sabotaging then this is not a major offensive.
3) Not required.
4) In an attempt to clarify the wording that certain people seem to have trouble grasping, I believe that you may be mixing up Affect with Effect. If you find yourself being affected by a spell; you can end the effect of that spell. Case in point: If you are in a frigid winter environ and it is affecting you by dealing damage and fatigue you would end the effect of that weather (You would not end winter!). Any other interpretation is therefore not supported by RAW, RAI, or the English language. But, If that's the way you like it, and your DM has no problem with you ending floods, earthquakes and time itself, then that's a personal preference, but again; not supported. What? you say your'e still not somehow convinced. The maneuver specifically lists it's range as Personal, and the target as You.
5) Vacuum.