My DM made a big mistake. Help me show him why.

[Mjollnir075]

Long story short, DM was upset that I smoked his miniboss. He challenged me to a 3 character munchkin battle.

3 characters per player. All 3 out at once, in a open air arena.

3.5 rules
All books allowed, but no cheese. Just effective, cool builds.
WBL appropriate
Free LA+1
No retraining.

He doesn't know nearly as much as he seems to think. He didn't even know about ToB, and he prefers martial characters.He undervalues casters. Hell, he told me that a multiclass Barb12/Druid8 was going to be better in the long run than straight Druid.

So heres what I need help with.

Can anyone give me a good team of three characters who play well off eachother, while also showing off some of the cool classes outside of Core/PHBII.

Any input welcome!

[Urpriest]

What's your conception of cheese, for the second requirement?

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Is this happening with 3 level 20 characters each?

[kharmakazy]

If he made such a huge mistake then you should be able to show him without using builds from the internet. You are sort of undercutting your own point.

Besides, if he things Barb 12/ druid 8 is a good build I don't think you need to optimize, or even make 3 characters. Just show up with one.

[Fable Wright]

Dark Companion Hexblade 4/Paladin of Tyranny 3/Blackguard 3/Zhentarium Dngeoncrasher Fighter 9/ Hexblade +1 with Imperious Command, Never Outnumbered, Knockback, and maybe Obtain Familiar + Improved Familiar. Kills all nearby creatures' saving throws, Cowers adjacent people, and is generally terrifying. You might also go with a Dread Necromancer/Dread Witch character to add some debuffs and take advantage of the ones already in place from the Hexblade. For the last character, I would say Druid 20 for the irony, but a Rainbow Warsnake or a Beguiled might also work.

[Waker]

If he made such a huge mistake then you should be able to show him without using builds from the internet. You are sort of undercutting your own point.

Besides, if he things Barb 12/ druid 8 is a good build I don't think you need to optimize, or even make 3 characters. Just show up with one.

A good point made. If the challenge is about you showing off your knowledge, you should be the one actually building the characters. As such the only advice I will give is to suggest a team of a Warblade, Beguiler and Totemist. The Warblade and Totemist can both deal a respectable amount of damage while the Beguiler can hinder his opponents with a range of illusions.

[Urpriest]

Barbarian 12/Druid 8 is actually kind of interesting. Sure, it completely discounts the sort of versatility casting and high-level wildshape can get...but if all you're building is a big furry meleer, going far enough in Druid for Large Wildshape and Barbarian for Greater Rage is not a bad choice overall. I'd say this guy has an optimizer's base instincts without the knowledge of the wider metagame. After you defeat him, introduce him to this forum. He could learn something.

[Worira]

Yeah, it's certainly not as good as pure druid, thanks to the sheer amount of great stuff druids get, but if you just want to be an extremely angry bear that murders people a whole bunch, it's not a bad build at all. Alternately, be an Extra Lion Totem Barbarian and straight-up transform into a giant lion.

[killianh]

you'll need heal/buff, BFC, and damage.

without really going OP build a straight dragon fire adept using power surge to allow meta breath. Then add a straight cleric and an ubercharger. Really though I have to agree with some of the previous posts. If this is about outdoing your DM it should really be done on your own. Coming here to beat your DM in a straight CO challenge is like looking up how to solve a rubix cube. All the result, none the reward

[Kyberwulf]

So, in essence your going to cheat? He cheallenged you to this contest. You come to these boards and have everyone else do you work for you?
I think he already won.

[LadyLexi]

If we are talking lv 20

Incantrix + Another caster + Cleric

The incantrix can apply metamagic to the other caster's spells. At lv 20, casters have so many tricks available to them, crazy bull tricks.

Enemies who can't touch you don't stand a chance, right?

First turn is all about time stop, then buff. Cleric can cast some pretty scary spells, spells that the Incantrix can maximize, empower, extend... whatever you need.

Your third caster is your pick, I like druid, but I can see a good shadowmage winning. Have them all be evil and cast the utterdark spell from Vile Darkness. Only evil can see now.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Have you considered: 1 "god wizard," 1 lockdown meleer, and 1 "ubercharger?" I do agree with the other posters, in that you should build all 3 yourself; but these three archetypes work very well as a team.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by kharmakazy
If he made such a huge mistake then you should be able to show him without using builds from the internet.

I really have to agree with this, as well as Kyberwulf's point. Your DM probably won't be consulting a talented, devoted gaming community for help with his side, so it's not really fair that you should.

Nor that you should present the results as your own work.

[Kazyan]

Forget the "lolwizard" stuff. The DM isn't going to be using casters, right?

Beat him with a Truenamer, Knight, and Healer.

[Invader]

1. Wizard
2. Druid
3. Cleric
4. Win

No optimization needed.

[Mjollnir075]

Ack. :smalleek:

Alright, wow. This got more hits than I was expecting. Lets see what I can do to answer here.

I never said that I was an optimizer, and I do not consider myself one. I am still very much in training. This was him saying that HE could beat ME at Munchkin-ing, implying that HE was the optimizer. This wasn't meant to be me attacking him saying
"FOOL. You know nothing of my power!" All I wanted to show him was that there was a lot more out there than he knew, all of which I learned here on these boards.

I also never said that a Barb12/Druid8 wasn't good, just that it wouldn't hold up to a pure Druid (once again, knowledge I gained from you fellows).

Urpriest has the right of it. I more want to show him what he's missing, and I want to show him the knowledge he could gain from frequenting the Playground.

Hopefully that's cleared up a bit..

Anyway, Like I said, it is 3 characters at 20, of which I was hoping to find some good ideas from outside the common books.

Dragonfire Adept looks interesting. Is staying in DFA worth all 20 levels or multiclass out?

One of the ideas I had was a Bardsader/Bardblade with DFI, but I'm open to suggestion.

And now that I think about it, RKV might be a good idea too.

See, I have a few ideas but actual builds are difficult for me. I tend to overvalue weaker abilities/situational abilities.

I hope that makes you guys think a bit better about me, instead of all jumping on the "attack Mjollnir" train.

P.s.
When I think of cheese, it's pretty much anything that involves abusing RAW to your advantage/loopholes/infinite loops.

Thanks guys.

Edit:
I realize now that the thread title makes it seem like I was being pompous and talking up my knowledge. It was more that he thinks he has a supreme grasp of the game mechanics and its powers, but doesn't venture past some of the main books. Sorry for the confusion..

[Mirakk]

I'm going to have to side with the others on this one. By consulting outside help you're only validating his point.

It's like challenging a guy to flintlock pistols at dawn, and asking your friends for help so they give you a TMP with a Laser sight. Sure you can win, but you didn't do it yourself, or fairly by any means.

[Mjollnir075]

I'm going to have to side with the others on this one. By consulting outside help you're only validating his point.

It's like challenging a guy to flintlock pistols at dawn, and asking your friends for help so they give you a TMP with a Laser sight. Sure you can win, but you didn't do it yourself, or fairly by any means.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I NEVER SAID I WAS AN OPTIMIZER. Someone commented, put words in my mouth, and then everyone jumped on his bandwagon and decided that instead of helping, they would instead attack me.

Forget it, if you weren't planning on helping, and you don't have any intention of furthering the discussion towards the goal of the thread, why bother posting?

[Randomguy]

Dragonfire adept is pretty decent. Unless you can find a prestige class that progresses the abilities, it's best to stay in. You need to be evil though, and pick up Fivefold Breath of Tiamat, for a 45d6 breath weapon. You take 40 damage though (or 80 if you aren't evil). The damage is split 9d6 for five different elements.

I'd suggest wizard, druid, horizon tripper: Wizard does a time stop + lock down + Dimension lock + Damage over time spells (maw of chaos especially), Horizon tripper (or similar but with non-core stuff) protects the casters. Make sure to use Disjunction on the first.

The wizard and druid and then both shapechange, and share the spell with the familiar and animal companion. Then comes death by dragons.
One round for one or two of the shapechangers as a rust dragon could probably wipe out all their equipment, too.

This probably counts as cheese, but you could also make one of the wizard/druid a dragonborn, give them the heighten breath feat and then turn into a Pyroclastic Dragon. Then heighten a disintigrating breath up so that it takes 10 minutes to recharge.

Oh and you could always swap the wizard for a sorcerer to get Wings of Cover.

[Mjollnir075]

Dragonfire adept is pretty decent. Unless you can find a prestige class that progresses the abilities, it's best to stay in. You need to be evil though, and pick up Fivefold Breath of Tiamat, for a 45d6 breath weapon. You take 40 damage though (or 80 if you aren't evil). The damage is split 9d6 for five different elements.

I'd suggest wizard, druid, horizon tripper: Wizard does a time stop + lock down + Dimension lock + Damage over time spells (maw of chaos especially), Horizon tripper (or similar but with non-core stuff) protects the casters. Make sure to use Disjunction on the first.

The wizard and druid and then both shapechange, and share the spell with the familiar and animal companion. Then comes death by dragons.
One round for one or two of the shapechangers as a rust dragon could probably wipe out all their equipment, too.

This probably counts as cheese, but you could also make one of the wizard/druid a dragonborn, give them the heighten breath feat and then turn into a Pyroclastic Dragon. Then heighten a disintigrating breath up so that it takes 10 minutes to recharge.

Oh and you could always swap the wizard for a sorcerer to get Wings of Cover.

That.. is pretty impressive. The dragonborn part does seem a bit cheesy, but the rest is gold. I haven't seen much DFA on here as far as OP goes, but this seems pretty effective.

Thanks for the input. I'll definitely consider this. Maybe continue with the dragon theme with DFA Bardsader.

Druids and Wizards, while obviously powerful enough for what I need, are too.. standard. I only suggest Bardsader to introduce him to how melee should be. Totemists are cool, as are Binders, but I don't know of any awesome builds where either of them are the focus instead of an extra neat ability or two.

Thanks.

[Metahuman1]

Ok, so, let's start with Something Simple. Drop a Druid 20 On him with Augment Summoning, Jotunbroad (Or using either Goliath or half giant for Powerful build.), Natural Spell, Extend Spell, and maybe Natural Bond and Multy-attack and Improved Grapple. If you wanna be crazy, greenbound summoning in there somewhere as well. Buff yourself into the Stratosphere, doing the same to your animal companion, and lay down a whole lot of Summons and long duration damage dealing spells (Creeping Cold, Call Lighting, that sort of thing.), along with the odd spell that let's you pop out a neat trick. (Getting pounce while a bear/Triceratops, Mass Snake's swiftness to give the massive number of minions you've got an extra attack, getting telepathy to talk to the "Party", ext.)

Next you'll want either a battle feild control Wizard with jacked up save DC's and a focus on Save or Loose, followed by Save or Die and then Save or Suck, in that order. Alternatively, you can either pick up a Mailman Sorc with a couple of Reserve feats and some tricks to get LOT's more spells of a given spell level then he should have to spam Orbs with, A save-or Specilist Bard 10/Sublime Cord 10, or a Psion, Erudite, or Archivist. A Dragon Fire Adept with lot's of Metabreath and power surge taking heavy advantage of WLB and UMD is also an option here. You've already got the basic point of this team member.

Lastly, your gonna want one of three things. Bard 1/Warblade x/ Seeker of the Song 2/ Warblade X (should have a total of 17 Warblade levels in the build and only be missing 2 BAB.) with TWF, a focus on Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind maneuvers, and Optimized Inspire courage. (That Includes Dragonfire Inspiration.)

Use Tiger Claw + Jumping to get on top of them and Song of the White raven to get your music going first round. Second round repeat unless the first rounds target is still standing. If he is, it's fun time. Raging Mongoose + Time Stands still with the optimized bardic music in effect, on a two weapon fighting build. Yeah.

Or

Have an Uber Charger. You'll either want a Spirit Lion totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 1/Warblade with lots of White Raven and a bit of Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw and Iron Heart 4-5/ Frenzied Berserker 10/ Warblade x. Get Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, and the biggest freaking Melee weapon you can use, and Battle Jumping, then use White Raven when your charge activates to stack on a bit more damage/debuffing. Alternatively, Get Warblade and use Leadership to get a suitable Mount and favor a lance and White Raven. Get Spirited Charge. There's a feat in some book that boosts your charge above what Spirited normally does. Get it, and Shock Trooper.


Or

Cleric 5/Prc Paladin 1/ Cleric 14. Full Paladin And Cleric Spell casting, Full Martial weapons Proficiency (and guess what, Spiked Gauntlets + a Glave is basically as good as a spiked chain. Or just grab yourself a big Two Handed Bludgeoning weapon.), and get yourself DMM Persist. Now take Power attack and buy a LOT of Nightsticks form Hero's of Horror. You are now the fighter, only vastly Superior.



The point of using one of these is to give you some manner of true, dedicated, Melee power house he won't have a clue how to handle.

[demigodus]

First, you need at least one caster who has some tricks so that:
a) they are guaranteed to go first

b) when they go first, they stop your opponent from being able to hurt your party

that, or you need some contingencies that can go off when your party is attacked while flat footed, to stop said attacks.

Else, this could easily become a case where he gets lucky, goes first, and wins on round 1. Your primary concern should be finding a way to prevent that.

Other then that, you need at least 1 character who can dish out some serious damage.

[Mjollnir075]

Lastly, your gonna want one of three things. Bard 1/Warblade x/ Seeker of the Song 2/ Warblade X (should have a total of 17 Warblade levels in the build and only be missing 2 BAB.) with TWF, a focus on Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind maneuvers, and Optimized Inspire courage. (That Includes Dragonfire Inspiration.)

Use Tiger Claw + Jumping to get on top of them and Song of the White raven to get your music going first round. Second round repeat unless the first rounds target is still standing. If he is, it's fun time. Raging Mongoose + Time Stands still with the optimized bardic music in effect, on a two weapon fighting build. Yeah.


Wow, yeah, these look good. I am pretty set on having ToB somewhere in there. I like the fluff of the Tiger Claw style, so I may go with the above build. Yeah.

So so far I think two characters will look something like
Dragonfire Adept 20
and
Bard 1/ Seeker of the Song 2/ Warblade 17

Both of these builds were just what I was looking for. Cool, powerful characters that my DM will have had no idea were even possible.

I'm really hoping that this will allow my fellow players and I opportunities to use stuff from outside Core/PHB2/PF

[Ashtagon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ETpLsbjg8I

Build these guys.

[Mjollnir075]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ETpLsbjg8I

Build these guys.

That video makes me weep with joy.

Swordsages, refluff/reconfigure Desert Wind to lightning damage. Bloodstorm Blade added for throwing kukris.

I can dig it.

[Greyfeld85]

If you want to stray outside the PHB, the Wu Jen and Shugenja are solid tier 3 replacements for the Wizard and Cleric. Also, you might consider a Warlock/Binder/Hellfire Warlock build for a long-ranged sniper, if you decide to go with a group of ranged characters.

I think it's important, also, to hammer out the specifics of the fight. It's difficult to determine which approach will be the best if we don't find out how large the battle area is, what the terrain looks like, and how far away the groups are from each other when combat starts. Not to mention buffs, minions, items, and all that miscellaneous stuff.

Just to expound on my point, running a DFA bard with the Requiem feat alongside a Dread Necromancer with an army of level 1 skeleton archers is deadly. Running a DFA bard with the Requiem feat alongside a Dread Necromancer with no undead because minions aren't allowed into battle is useless.

[Metahuman1]

Wow, yeah, these look good. I am pretty set on having ToB somewhere in there. I like the fluff of the Tiger Claw style, so I may go with the above build. Yeah.

So so far I think two characters will look something like
Dragonfire Adept 20
and
Bard 1/ Seeker of the Song 2/ Warblade 17

Both of these builds were just what I was looking for. Cool, powerful characters that my DM will have had no idea were even possible.

I'm really hoping that this will allow my fellow players and I opportunities to use stuff from outside Core/PHB2/PF

As an extra trick if you can spare the feats, pick up Knowledge Devotion and a potion of Guidance of the Avatar, and the skill trick that gives you a +5 to a Knowledge Check. Then Grab a few master work tools for Knowledge skills that tell you about enemy's. Get a bit more to hit and damage on those attacks when you at +25-+26 to the Knowledge Checks to get the boosts, should put you comfortably in the +2 to +4 to hit and damage on all attacks range for a modest investment.

And remember, Speed weapon Property on both weapons is your very best friend for this, but Wounding is a close second. With Speed + Raging Mongoose on both weapons, you get 10 attacks on a full attack at highest BAB + your Iteniratives. , that all get Knowledge Devotion + Bardic Music benefits. 20 if your using Time Stands still.

[Mjollnir075]

Mm, you're right. I didn't specify. We won't have time to buff beforehand, or get up minions. I had thoughts toward a Dread Necro at first, but we decided that if you add stuff from prior to the battle that it can get a little sketchy.

I may use the DFI Bard with a Dread Necro cohort in a later game, though. I like it.

[Gavinfoxx]

Can you have your all day long buffs up?

Your cohorts? planar allies?

Can you have your contingencies up?

What is the wealth by level?

Can you craft stuff?

[Kelb_Panthera]

If you do a follow-up match, to show him the fact magic trumps everything, it would be hilarious if you did it with an expert 20 who got all his magic and combat ability from magic items that produce spell effects.

[Gavinfoxx]

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4209.0

and

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=4511

Core only.

Do this with core only. You can do it!

[Greyfeld85]

As an extra trick if you can spare the feats, pick up Knowledge Devotion and a potion of Guidance of the Avatar, and the skill trick that gives you a +5 to a Knowledge Check. Then Grab a few master work tools for Knowledge skills that tell you about enemy's. Get a bit more to hit and damage on those attacks when you at +25-+26 to the Knowledge Checks to get the boosts, should put you comfortably in the +2 to +4 to hit and damage on all attacks range for a modest investment.

And remember, Speed weapon Property on both weapons is your very best friend for this, but Wounding is a close second. With Speed + Raging Mongoose on both weapons, you get 10 attacks on a full attack at highest BAB + your Iteniratives. , that all get Knowledge Devotion + Bardic Music benefits. 20 if your using Time Stands still.

Maxing out a skill already grants a base +23 modifier, so it's not like he needs to take all those extra steps. An Int of 14 places any character with a maxed out Knowledge (Local) in a position to always take a +3 to hit against humanoids.

[Tvtyrant]

If you do a follow-up match, to show him the fact magic trumps everything, it would be hilarious if you did it with an expert 20 who got all his magic and combat ability from magic items that produce spell effects.

Like an impoverished Artificer? :smallwink:

My personal suggestion is a Psywarrior. Use Form of Doom with Claws of the Beast and Expansion to gave a lot of attacks, then cast Lion's Charge to get pounce off. You can get the claws out as a free action using the item Skin of the Claw, so if you use a round to buff you can really boost yourself up (at the loss of all your PP, but whatever). Swift action Expansion, standard action Form of Doom, free action Claws of the Beast. Next turn you use a charge with Psionic Lion's Charge to get 4 tentacles and 2-4 claws depending on feats.

[Metahuman1]

Maxing out a skill already grants a base +23 modifier, so it's not like he needs to take all those extra steps. An Int of 14 places any character with a maxed out Knowledge (Local) in a position to always take a +3 to hit against humanoids.

I'm assuming no ranks in the relevant Knowledge Skill, just Bardic Knack. I should have mentioned that, but I was being distracted by the autistic teenager in the room at my house IRL when I was typing my last post.

[Kelb_Panthera]

like an impoverished artificer?

Not exactly... I was thinking more like "Here's a guy with exactly zero class features. Quite literally everything he has is from feats anyone can pick up and magic items/ spell effects anyone can make use of. With a couple rounds of prep and the right expendables he can do anything someone with PC class levels can do and probably do it better. If that doesn't say magic trumps all, I don't know what does. Just about the only classes he can't out perform are the big 3, but nobody beats them. That's why they're the big 3."

[Sutremaine]

This was him saying that HE could beat ME at Munchkin-ing, implying that HE was the optimizer. This wasn't meant to be me attacking him saying
"FOOL. You know nothing of my power!" All I wanted to show him was that there was a lot more out there than he knew, all of which I learned here on these boards.
Okay, but remember that the contest isn't him vs. you any more, but him vs. the GitP board.

[danzibr]

Well, since DFI Bard is being talked about (I'm not sure how the "get up cohorts" thing comes into play), if you can take Leadership, I'd make 3 DFI Bards with 2 DFI cohorts and a regular Bard. One does Sonic, one does Acid, Electricity, Fire, Cold (for DFI), the other does a regular IC. It's terribly unoptimized, which maybe defeats the purpose of teaching your DM a lesson/owning him, but you can get something like (depending upon how WoC is ruled with various IC boosts) +12 to attack and damage, +12d6 per element of damage (ish). You could also go Sublime Chord and pick up some ninth level casting.

I think it'd be funny to own him with a bunch of Bards since I've known a good few people to think of Bards as underpowered.

[kharmakazy]

I'm not sure why he made a huge mistake, so I'm not sure how to help show that.

What huge mistake did your DM make?

[graeylin]

wizard, beguiler, cleric.

Wizard for all the wizard tricks... stop time, delayed blasties, either summons or polymorph tricks, and some utility tricks/buffs/control.

Cleric, cause you need some buffs and a tank to mop it all up.

beguiler, just for the freaky fun. Beat this glibness/diplomacy check... find your way out of my illusions. Figure out what's real, and what's not, while the other two mess with you too.


(or, wizard/wizard/cleric, or wizard/cleric/druid). I know, it's not much out of core, but, it's classic.

[eggs]

If you're expecting a blowout, my instinct would be:

Straightclassed Wizard, straightclassed Psion, straightclassed Cleric, sticking as closely to common sources as possible.

If your opponent is underestimating casters and you know what you're doing, it should still be a blowout, but one which can't be chalked up to you just happening to stumble into obscure and broken-to-pieces materials like Quori Mindshards or Initiate of Mystra.

EDIT:
Still not sure how this would show he can't beat you at munckining though.

[Metahuman1]

As has been mentioned before, make darn sure you get to go first. Line up some resources for Rerolls for Initiative, and don't forget to boost the checks. Neverskitter, Improved Initiative on the whole party (Through Dark Chaos Shuffle in necessary.), Warning and Eager property loaded onto an arrow a piece for your party, Rings of Initiative all around!

It might not hurt to have the Wizard plane shift you guys to a separate plane of Existence as soon as you do plane shift. Given that he shouldn't know what plane (Particularly if it's a privet Demi Plane the Wizard Set up with Genesis as soon as he could cast a 9th lvl spell.) you shifted too, you should be ok to go there, Buff for a few rounds, possibly with a few rounds of Scry and Die afterwords thrown in to soften up the Dm's Party by one+ any Cohorts/Minions/followers/Ext he may have, and then come back. Let the Dragonfire Adept Uberblast what-ever's left of the Dm's party save one dude, who when the party returns to the material plane has a Bard 1/ Seeker of the Song 2/ Warblade 17 Drop in on him for a Tiger claw Maneuver followed after his landing by a time Stands Still + Raging Mongoose, or barring that, Just Time stands still + Raging Mongoose Combo, with Bardic Musics going naturally.

He'll be done before your finished taking out attakcs on him.

[Arbane]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ETpLsbjg8I

Build these guys.

....But he's not playing Feng Shui... :smallbiggrin:

[Deth Muncher]

Guys, I think you seem to be missing the point here. The problem isn't "Hi my name is Mjolnir and I know more than my DM at being a munchkin, except I don't so please help me." What he's saying is that he's been around the boards for a little while, picked up some basic CharOp, and used this against his DM's miniboss and apparently slaughtered it. The DM is pissed, because he thinks that he knows everything there is to know about CharOp without having visited the collective hivemind of the Internet, and can't possibly figure out why Mjolnir here could beat him, because he's obviously infallible. Thus, he challenges our pal here, not to prove that one knows more than the other, but to prove that losing was a fluke.

Now, that being said. I DO tend to agree that you should have just used your own musings in order to trounce him - I mean, you already know that Wizard, Druid and Cleric are the gods of this game. If it were me, I would have just declined the duel since it's only going to end up pissing the DM off when you wipe the floor with him, and just cut to the chase of explaining why the miniboss he built wasn't enough to beat your guy, as well as just pushing him both here and to the minmax boards (I don't know if you knew about them before today, but if not, that's a great resource too).

If, however, you insist on using our knowledge for your own gain, then I give you this advice:

-A Diplomancer. I got this build off of these forums, credit to Zaydos:
Level 1 Marshal (Skill Focus (Diplomacy) and Motivate Charisma Aura).
Level 2 some better class with Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, and Knowledge (Nob & Royal) on its class skill list; preferably Cha focused (Bard).

Get a +25 and you only need a 10 to make someone indifferent as a full-round action (it's a -10 to do so, normally the check is 1 minute). Put your highest stat possible in Charisma, get a Crown of Persuasion (+3 Competence bonus to Charisma checks and skills) if you can't get a custom item of diplomacy. Play a half-elf (+2 to Diplomacy) while you're at it.

Assuming 18 starting charisma:
Lv 1: Persuasive (feat), Skill Focus (Diplomacy) (marshal bonus feat), +4 (Motivate Charisma), 4 ranks. +19.
Lv 2: +6 synergy, 5 ranks. +26.
By Lv 8 you ought to be able to afford a Crown of Persuasion and/or a +2 Cha item and have +36 or +37. Congratulations, by level 8 if it has a language and can understand you, you can take 6 seconds to make it not care about your existence. On a 1.
Throw in a level of Mindbender for Telepathy and now you don't even have to speak the same language.

-Batman Wizard. There is no standard build, but if you look at Solo's Sorceror Strategems (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=487.0) and TLN's Guide to Being Batman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002), as well as Treantmonk's Guide to Being a God (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19873034/Treantmonks_guide_to_Wizards:_Being_a_God) I think you'll find what you need.

-At this point, you shouldn't need a melee character at all, because...I mean, come on, really? But if you insist, then I say go ahead and drop a Druid20 on him, since he seems to think that's stupid. Here's a Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=940) for you. Make sure you've got a Fleshraker animal companion and the Venomfire spell, and have fun.

[Garwain]

Show up with a Fighter 20, Rogue 20 and Paladin 20. Then loose.

Whine: "oh sorry great DM, I bow before your OP skills, can we please resume the campaign?"

Then CRUSH his next boss again.

Because honestly, what happens if you win the contest? Will the game be fun afterwards? Or will every encounter by CR inappropriate from now on...

[Ashtagon]

Show up with a Fighter 20, Rogue 20 and Paladin 20. Then loose.

Whine: "oh sorry great DM, I bow before your OP skills, can we please resume the campaign?"

Then CRUSH his next boss again.

Because honestly, what happens if you win the contest? Will the game be fun afterwards? Or will every encounter by CR inappropriate from now on...

This is a good point actually. Not because doing so will mean you'll steamroller the next BBEG, but because the challenge as originally stated will inevitably turn the campaign into an oppositional situation in which players and DM are both trying to "win" rather than "have fun and tell a story". Fine if that's the game you want, but it's a very hard trap to escape from if you don't want that.

[Mjollnir075]

Guys, I think you seem to be missing the point here. The problem isn't "Hi my name is Mjolnir and I know more than my DM at being a munchkin, except I don't so please help me." What he's saying is that he's been around the boards for a little while, picked up some basic CharOp, and used this against his DM's miniboss and apparently slaughtered it. The DM is pissed, because he thinks that he knows everything there is to know about CharOp without having visited the collective hivemind of the Internet, and can't possibly figure out why Mjolnir here could beat him, because he's obviously infallible. Thus, he challenges our pal here, not to prove that one knows more than the other, but to prove that losing was a fluke.

That.. sums up everything. THANK YOU. A MILLION TIMES THANK YOU.
I feared reposting on here for the simple reason that some posters were more interested in bashing me than helping, but you have shown me the light in the darkness.

Anyways..

A diplomancer, you say? Well, looking at the basic outline you laid down, it's definitely something I'm interested in. However, I wonder if I can throw more outside core stuff into it. I mean, by level 8 I can make someone indifferent, but what about at 20? I really wanna show him stuff that he hasn't seen.

I'm more doing this to show him how much he doesn't know, but in a GOOD way. Like, "Yeah, DM, you may know a few tricks from core, but BEHOLD! Let me introduce you to a whole world you never knew about!"

So, right now my party is looking like..

Dragonfire Adept 20, with Five Fold Breath of Tiamat

Bard 1/ Seeker of the Song 2/ Warblade 17, with Dragonfire Inspiration

Some sort of Diplomancer, perhaps. I wanna try and squeeze in some exotic abilities too. I'm not all too familiar with Binders, but don't they have a vestige that can help with this?

Thanks guys

Edit:


Show up with a Fighter 20, Rogue 20 and Paladin 20. Then loose.

Whine: "oh sorry great DM, I bow before your OP skills, can we please resume the campaign?"

Then CRUSH his next boss again.

Because honestly, what happens if you win the contest? Will the game be fun afterwards? Or will every encounter by CR inappropriate from now on...

Another misunderstanding I forgot to mention. This wasn't out of anger or anything that we are doing this. It was more of a friendly rivalry kind of deal. I can't imagine there being any problems either IC or OOC, besides him realizing he may have to scale the encounters up a bit.

I battle for the honor of the playground, in hopes of winning another to her side.

[Randomguy]

Diplomacy doesn't work on PC's, so you probably won't get away with a diplomancer.

I still think you need to teach the DM the true value of casters. If you don't want something from core, then you could use an Archivist, from Heroes of Horror, with Druid and Cleric spells. Or possibly Artificer, with a metric tonne of magic items.

[Rubik]

What about a pair of dvati twin egoist/illithid slayers? Dvati twins are from Dragon Compendium. If you abuse action economy to buff up in the first round, you could tag-team him with twice as many bodies.

[Mjollnir075]

What about a pair of dvati twin egoist/illithid slayers? Dvati twins are from Dragon Compendium. If you abuse action economy to buff up in the first round, you could tag-team him with twice as many bodies.

What kind of abusing are we talkin' here? I'm not looking for anything that stinks of Bleu or Munsters here.

[The Glyphstone]

More like cottage cheese than blue cheese. I'd avoid Dvati only because they're so darn weird that a win using them could be dismissed as only due to the funky race choice and not charop skills.

[Mjollnir075]

Mm, yeah, cottage cheese fits the bill. Tastes delicious, but you pay for it afterwords. Or at least, anyone in the blast radius pays for it..

Yeah, upon closer inspection, the Dvati seems.. more complicated than anticipated. Very cool concept, but without the cheese, seems more like an extra body to keep an eye on.

[Metahuman1]

I kinda like hitting him with an Artificer, an Archivest, or maybe a Psion optimized to make him save or loose or save or die a couple of times a round iwth wands/spells/powers respectively to the class.


There outside Core. There magic type characters, and they aren't defaulting to blasting, buffing, or healing. Just juice the crap out of the saving throw DC's and the related stat for more Spell Slots/PP a day and let him have it with that. Combined with the other two builds, should be exotic enough to stop him cold.

[DrDeth]

What does Admiral Akbar say?


"It's a trap!"

Don't do it, friend.

[Igneel]

From a Dragonfire Adept user:

-If your capable of getting access to Metabreaths for your Dragonfire Adept (via Power Surge, Dragonborn identity, or some other method) one idea is to become a undead through the 'Necropolitian' template from Libris Mortis. Then qualify for the Breath of Unlife feat from Dragons of Faerun (basically the ability to apply metabreaths, and Cha of 13+). Now not only do you only need to max one stat (Cha to breath weapon and invocation saves, Dex helps of course) but all of your breath weapons that deal elemental damage deal half normal energy damage, and half negative energy against living creatures, and all normal energy damage against undead. This is a interesting build for a Cha only character. Biggest negative side of this is that your HP will be lower unless you can find a way to get Cha to HP.

-Dragons of Faerun also has a nice little gem called the Crown of the North Wind (70k gp price tag) that allows you to switch your normal elmental energy damage dealt from a breath weapon in exchange for a Metallic Dragon's alternat status breath but with a greater duration then most of the DFA's version. Need to paralyze the opponent but didn't choose the Paralysis breath? Breath your normal cold breath and use the crown to change it into a Silver dragon's paralysis breath! Need to Slow someone but didn't choose the slow breath (why?!)? Breath an acid breath and slow them like a Copper dragon! By default, anything not a dragon with dragon age categories will be considered a Young dragon when using their breath weapon effects, which makes a Dragonwrought Kobold even more ideal as a DFA to be considered Great Wyrm for -12 to Str using a Gold dragon's weakening gas by substituting your fire damage!

-If your capable of using dragonmarks from Eberron, the Dragonmarked book has a feat that adds +2d6 damage to your breath weapon if you have a true dragonmark. This limits you sadly to only a limited number of races but its an interesting feat to grab if you are going for a nuke. Along with this there is a PrC that grants you more breath weapon damage/invocation progression, but again depends on the use of dragonmarks.

-One strategy I like is using the Gorget of Tempest from Draconomicon and using Humanoid Shape to change into a Constrictor Naga [according to Oriental Adventures, its Humanoid] and literally blowing away anything Medium or smaller using any breath weapon by turning it into a windstorm. Throw in either Entangling Exhalation or Clinging/Lingering breath to make it a presisting wind effect that they have to save every round they stay in while taking damage. Get a spellcaster with Enlarge person or its equivalent to boost your size even more.

-Chilling Fog and the Slow breath will be life saving battlefield abilities that can greatly hamper the melee opponents. So if your capable of being at a distance (via flight for example) as soon as they get out of the effect just hit them again.

-Draconic Aura (Energy) feat from Dragon Magic can up your DC for a specific energy to a max of +4 in addition to all the other bonuses you can find. It doesn't help Tiamat's Fivefold, but it will help both your fellow casters with similar energy damge spells along with a breath weapon.

-For the Dragon spirit cincture item, a (imho) reasonable item to hold is a Claw Bracer from Arms and Equipment and have each of the three blades made into different Dragonfang weapons from Draconomicon to meet the prerequisite of wielding a weapon that deals elemental damage. Technically a Dragonfang weapon deals 1 point of either fire/cold/acid/electric damage, and a claw bracer is a hands-free weapon that has three blades. So for the price of +900gp you get the same effect of a energy assault crystal that you don't have to replace between certain breaths. Not to mention that just because your not 'proficient' with it, you don't have to use it. :smallsmile:

Hope this helps, and try to remember, its not worth doing if you lose a friend.

[Saintheart]

Here's the irony as I see it (and I do applaud the playground for the sort of biting-lip, reluctant "here are the keys to power, but don't say we didn't warn you" posting going on! :) )

If your DM doesn't venture out far past core, have you considered what's going to happen if you do show up with three Lego behemoths drawn from several dozen books he's probably never heard of or read?

I would have anticipated his first reaction, either after getting stomped into the ground or even in the first round when you pronounce the ubercharger's pulled 100+ damage in one pass, is to say "You're cheating". If you then show him the books and the references and in fact take him piece by piece through the builds to demonstrate it's all WOTC-legal, so to speak, are you going to get a reaction other than a small tantrum and stomping away possibly not to DM again?

How much is your DM's ego invested in this competition? You could wind up doing more harm than good here.

[Mjollnir075]

Here's the irony as I see it (and I do applaud the playground for the sort of biting-lip, reluctant "here are the keys to power, but don't say we didn't warn you" posting going on! :) )

If your DM doesn't venture out far past core, have you considered what's going to happen if you do show up with three Lego behemoths drawn from several dozen books he's probably never heard of or read?

I would have anticipated his first reaction, either after getting stomped into the ground or even in the first round when you pronounce the ubercharger's pulled 100+ damage in one pass, is to say "You're cheating". If you then show him the books and the references and in fact take him piece by piece through the builds to demonstrate it's all WOTC-legal, so to speak, are you going to get a reaction other than a small tantrum and stomping away possibly not to DM again?

How much is your DM's ego invested in this competition? You could wind up doing more harm than good here.

Like I mentioned earlier, this wasn't something done out of anger. He WANTS me to bring him things that show him there IS a reason to use books from outside core. This is going to be a friendly competition, and I agreed that I would cite all my sources for everything.

If he does blow up in anger, then I will be worried, for I shall know for certain that he most certainly has been replaced by a doppleganger.

[DrDeth]

Like I mentioned earlier, this wasn't something done out of anger. He WANTS me to bring him things that show him there IS a reason to use books from outside core. This is going to be a friendly competition, and I agreed that I would cite all my sources for everything.

If he does blow up in anger, then I will be worried, for I shall know for certain that he most certainly has been replaced by a doppleganger.

He won't get angry, but he's using this to show that books from outside core are broken. It's a trap.

[Randomguy]

You could try making a gish, to show off more outside of core awesomeness. The typical sorcadin gish uses 3 books outside of core for prestige classes alone. More, for spells.
Bonus points if you use Swiftblade, thus convincing him that online sources are worth using, too.
If you want to go all out, you could even try using a non-core base for the gish, like wu-jen.

A decent build is Wu-Jen 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5, but you'd need a race that grants proficiency with a martial weapon. Wu-Jen get good Gish spells anyway.

Since swiftblade forces you to take Dodge and Mobility, you could also take Elusive target, a tactical feat from Complete Warrior, which gives you, among other small bonuses, the ability to negate power attack.

Although putting a psion in there, to help introduce psionics to your group, would also be a good idea.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

It would be funny if the OP came back and said my DM beat my super awesome builds that each one alone could beat a pack a solar angels by themselfs.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Now, a moment of paranoia: What if we've been mislead?! What if the OP is the DM!? We've helped him create the anti-party that will murder-tpk his group!!!


:tongue:

[Private]

I think a Lightning Mace build could definitely open his eyes. I also think so Psionics could do well. I've got some builds just hanging out. If you are interested just let me know and I can PM them to you. I don't want to bog down your thread with tons of crap if you don't need it. :)

[kitcik]

Druid 20 (wildshaper melee)
Druid 20 (summoner)
Druid 20 (caster)

[Prime32]

The typical "invincible" combo for a high-level wizard is celerity (grants a standard action) + Craft Contingent Spell (set to "cast celerity when someone attempts to cause me harm") + time stop. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCw7ysE--5Q)

[NerfTW]

All books allowed, but no cheese. Just effective, cool builds.

So he wins by default, by arguing anything you're doing is "cheese".


Seriously, you'd need a set line for what entails cheese. And more so than "abuses the RAW", because that's even MORE vague.


I have a feeling this contest isn't going to prove anything, if he's already having it over you beating his monsters.

[Seerow]

Personally I'd go with a Bardblade (preferably with IC maxed out and DFI granting the whole group the extra 8d6 sonic damage), a RKV, and a Abjurant Champion based gish. He likes melee types, and undervalues casters, show him what sort of huge benefits come getting near full spellcasting onto those melee types.

Either that or as others have recommended, core only, Cleric20/Druid20/Wizard20. About as effective, not as much fun.

[le Suisse]

I think you need a half-elf aristocrat (with Charisma and Diplomacy at max) with the Leadership and Landlord feats. As your lackeys, choose wizards or druids.
I would like to see your DM lauching attack waves after waves of warriors on your indestructible fortress while your PC is comfortably sitting in your throne room with a golden goblet of wine in one hand, wondering what he will have for dinner (bonus points if he ssay something about the peace than all true warrior strives for). And if a foe manage to goes near him, he can still say "hello, you." and use his godlike Diplomacy skill to talk the other guy into submission. Oh, and he should spent his free time going in places and asking: "hey, can I be the ruler here?" until he own the world.

[morkendi]

I would put the 3 man party i play with against anything. It consist of my psychic war 18. 15 diviner/ 3rd archmage, and cleric/ favored soul. I cant say much about the other 2, but my half giant psychic war is all about trips, attacks of oppertunity and debuffs. With knockdown feat tripping, expansion, strength of my enemy taking str and vamperic blade taking con as well as my ability to self heal and avoid damage with powers frees the cleric from having to heal. I lions charge casters and trip them, fighters come to me and i trip them as well. 4 AoO that drain is plenty against 3 opponents. Cleric tosses up blade barrier where they are tripped, and diviner does his thing like grease as well plus so much more we can do. If bumped to 20 lvl, we could do well against any 3 man team.

[Mjollnir075]

So he wins by default, by arguing anything you're doing is "cheese".


Seriously, you'd need a set line for what entails cheese. And more so than "abuses the RAW", because that's even MORE vague.


I have a feeling this contest isn't going to prove anything, if he's already having it over you beating his monsters.

No no no. When I said "Abuses RAW", I meant more like.. If the trick you are trying to pull of requires you to take a very liberal reading of RAW, in a way very against RAI, then I would consider it cheese.

Hmm, after typing that out, it makes it seem like the Dragonfire Adept with Five Fold Breath is kinda pushing it. It seems like a lot of effort to get some of the necessities taken care of. I mean, being a one-shot battle like this, it probably doesn't really matter if I make him an Evil Undead DFA, but I do want to avoid there being any chance of RAW abuse to win.

Otherwise, it just comes down to who has the more powerful definition of the text.

So, this begs the question. Does DFA with FFBoT seem a little cheesy? If so, I may drop it in favor of something different.

Also, I am fairly certain he'll be using a Cleric on his team. I spoke with him earlier, and he was talking about high level Cleric spells and how powerful they are. So.. I guess I should be expecting that, at least.

P.S.
Thanks so much for the help guys. So many great ideas.

[The Glyphstone]

...I'm missing something. In what possible way could a Dragonfire Adept with Fivefold Breath of Tiamat be cheese? It's one of the DFA's 'core' options, and being Undead wouldn't affect it in the slightest. When DFA and cheese get mentioned, it's usually in the context of jumping through loopholes to get metabreath feats applied to the DFA's breath weapon.

[Mjollnir075]

...I'm missing something. In what possible way could a Dragonfire Adept with Fivefold Breath of Tiamat be cheese? It's one of the DFA's 'core' options, and being Undead wouldn't affect it in the slightest. When DFA and cheese get mentioned, it's usually in the context of jumping through loopholes to get metabreath feats applied to the DFA's breath weapon.

Sorry, I was referring to all the metabreath stuff as part of that. An earlier post was talking about it, and I thought it sounded ok till I took a peek at some of em'

[Andvare]

If he is melee oriented, why not use a character that is immune to damage?
Say a Bone Knight with regeneration (and probably some immunity to cover the energy vulnerability).

[Igneel]

Sorry, I was referring to all the metabreath stuff as part of that. An earlier post was talking about it, and I thought it sounded ok till I took a peek at some of em'

Its a large debate when it comes to the 'DFA qualify for Metabreath' arguement. Generally there are several legal ways for them to meet the prerequisites, but most can't agree if the Metabreath feat only applies to the breath that allows you to get the feat, or if it can be used with your DFA breath as well. So let's say you have your DFA breath weapon, but you gain a breath weapon that is expressed in 1d4 recharge rate. Does the metabreath only work on the breath that has a recharge, or can you use it on your class breath weapon but applying the recharge from the feat ontop of it?

Let's take a look at the route most people usually recommend if Dragon Magazine is allowed, the Power Surge feat. Its a relatively easy feat to get, and has an feature to make it so a Su ability (like your breath weapon) needs a recharge rate of 1 round. Its legal if Dragon Magazine is allowed, but most DM's don't because of how Dragon is known for printing material that isn't entirely balanced.

The next method is the Dragonborn of Bahamut route. Simple enough, you do a ritual that costs you 100gp, promise Bahamut you'll be good and kill evil dragons, and you get a new body while losing most of your old body's abilities along with a +2 Con and -2 Dex. Problem with this is if your going the Tiamat breath, you can't apply for this template as you have to be Good. As soon as you do something evil you go through a painful experience and lose the template if you already had it.

Dipping into another class that grants you an additional breath weapon is another route. Sadly most take more then just a 'dip', such as the Dragon Shaman's 5 lvls, along with at least a Binder or Totemist that I know of.

Getting a template that grants you a breath weapon is a similar problem.

Finally, the method I most enjoy (though its costly) is to snag a draconic graft from Races of the Dragon if memory serves for 56k to get a breath weapon that deals 6d8 damage of mediocre range but runs on the same DC as your class breath weapon. Technically once you get this graft its a part of you, so its practically just as good as just having the breath weapon from a race.

The thing to remember, is (if I recall correctly, don't quote me) that if you have multiple breaths, they all use the same recharge rate. I believe it was asked of the Wizard/Rules Compendium, but I don't have the exact quote at the moment. So if that is correct, if you use a breath and have a recharge, you can't use another breath weapon till it ends. But I have been proven wrong before so I'll let someone else correct me :smallwink:

[planswalker]

make sure to pick up a dragon spirit cincture for your dragonfire adept. It's a belt in MIC which adds 1d6 damage to your breath weapon on the cheap. If you need the belt slot for something else, look into MIC's rules for adding effects to just add that effect to the belt. For fivefold breath, this will mean an extra 5d6 damage.

[DementedFellow]

Have all three be wizards and have all three follow this website in order to maximize Magic Missile.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7802.0;wap2

May seem like a cheap tactic, and it is. But this is a game of rocket tag from the sound of it, and the best rocket is a heat-seaking one.

[Gavinfoxx]

Have all three be wizards and have all three follow this website in order to maximize Magic Missile.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7802.0;wap2

May seem like a cheap tactic, and it is. But this is a game of rocket tag from the sound of it, and the best rocket is a heat-seaking one.

Except you would need Heighten for some of those, as people can be immune to magic missile -- even those bumped versions -- pretty easily...

[DementedFellow]

Except you would need Heighten for some of those, as people can be immune to magic missile -- even those bumped versions -- pretty easily...

Force Missile Mage can change up the the energy type and negate shield spells and brooches of shielding. It would be pretty amazing that the DM would have thought that thoroughly.

[LordotheMorning]

I would DEFINITELY DEFINITELY build three halflings with the Swarmfighting feat. Give two of them reach weapons, one of them a level in Swordsage for Island of Blades Stance and everything is perma-flanked.

[Killer Angel]

No no no. When I said "Abuses RAW", I meant more like.. If the trick you are trying to pull of requires you to take a very liberal reading of RAW, in a way very against RAI, then I would consider it cheese.

Suddenly, I feel the urge to cite the third commandment of Practical Optimization (bolded by me for convenience)


3. RAW is a myth.
This is one of the dirty little secrets of the board. The Most Holy RAW is invoked continuously by those who want to give their arguments the veneer of officiality. The problem is, RAW is generally applied not as "The Rules as Written," but rather as "The Rules As I Interpret Them And You Can't Prove I'm Wrong, Nyeah." The RAITAYCPIWN. Not quite as catchy an acronym, granted, but that's what it boils down to. This game cannot be played without interpretation and the judicious application of common sense. Try to play the game strictly and exclusively by the rules as written, and you have an unplayable game. Using "RAW" as a defense is similarly meaningless--particularly when your defense rests on interpretation. If you're going to claim that your build is RAW, you'd better be able to make sure that the rules specifically uphold your claim...not simply that they're sort of vague and COULD be interpreted in such a way as to not FORBID your claim.
This becomes particularly important when your claim is especially controversial. Yes, builds should adhere to the rules as written. Yes, any exceptions to that should be noted. But the RAW as some sort of entity unto itself, capable of rendering a build immune to criticism, is not a useful construction, and causes more problems than it solves.

[GenghisDon]

What's your conception of cheese, for the second requirement?

heh, mine is pretty low: more than one prestige class is cheese to me (99%) chance.

I'd have more pleasure stomping the other's character's with druid 20, cleric 20 & a wizard 20, particularily if they are using stuff like barbarian 12/druid 8, but I'm sure most folks mileage varies.

If NON-CORE is the desire, how about psion 20, beguiler 20 & knight 20?

[Rubik]

heh, mine is pretty low: more than one prestige class is cheese to me (99%) chance.
So building for a concept is cheese to you?

And using PrCs that mesh together really well, conceptually? What if you go to the end of one PrC, and enter into another?

Apparently your cheese threshold is incredibly low.

[planswalker]

So building for a concept is cheese to you?

And using PrCs that mesh together really well, conceptually? What if you go to the end of one PrC, and enter into another?

Apparently your cheese threshold is incredibly low.

indeed, returning to anything but your base class after a 5-level prc would seem to be "cheese".

You use that word, but I don't think you understand what it means when said on this board.

[Rubik]

You use that word, but I don't think you understand what it means when said on this board.ie, "I don't think it means what you think it means."

[edit] Off-topic:Also, glad you're feeling better, planswalker. Since you were on antibiotics make sure you take some probiotic foods and supplements, like yogurt. They'll help keep you from getting GI infections.

[eggs]

I've never played a game where more than two base classes/two prestige classes wouldn't start drawing funny looks, especially if the first PrC wasn't taken to completion. Or where one base class plus maybe one PrC wasn't the norm. So that doesn't seem like an unreasonable expectation at all.

[Rubik]

I've never played a game where more than two base classes/two prestige classes wouldn't start drawing funny looks, especially if the first PrC wasn't taken to completion. Or where one base class plus maybe one PrC wasn't the norm. So that doesn't seem like an unreasonable expectation at all.So far as you qualify for everything and you can justify it in-character, there's no reasonable reason to prevent it.

Now, preventing brokenness itself is fine, and if the combo would lend itself to brokenness, you can talk to the player, but there's nothing wrong with choosing abilities that go well with your character, both mechanically and flavor-wise. Classes shouldn't always be in-game constructs, IMO. Otherwise, 90% of the characters I make (which are quite good, RP-wise) simply wouldn't work.

[Gavinfoxx]

So Ranger2/Swashbuckler3/Dervish10/Tempest5 is cheesy??

I would call it 'elegant' and 'fitting to a theme'... and 'cohesive'

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9082.0

[eggs]

Classes shouldn't always be in-game constructs, IMO.
This is where differences come from. I've never played in a game that didn't, by default, treat classes as the books presented them. There were exceptions, but a "focused" lawful barbarian was notably nonstandard, and mixing six classes with various dips would have flagged someone as playing a different metagame than the rest of the group.

[The Glyphstone]

That's not really the same, though. A Lawful Barbarian is non-standard, but he's talking about the idea that all barbarians must be savage tribesmen, nomads, or other uncivilized culture, because that's what the in-book fluff describes them as - i.e., in-game constructs. A barbarian can't just be a guy -say, a member of the town guard - who gets really angry and fights better when he's pissed off. Only a Fighter can be a member of the town guard, because Fighters are professional soldiers according to the in-book fluff.

[planswalker]

ie, "I don't think it means what you think it means."

[edit] Off-topic:Also, glad you're feeling better, planswalker. Since you were on antibiotics make sure you take some probiotic foods and supplements, like yogurt. They'll help keep you from getting GI infections.

yes, I was trying to imply without quoting. Saw that one too much in high school to ever be caught dead quoting it.

thanks for the concern. The infection's gone but the doc has me finishing off the antibiotics for another three days. Luckily, my family stocks up on yogurt regularly.


I've never played a game where more than two base classes/two prestige classes wouldn't start drawing funny looks, especially if the first PrC wasn't taken to completion. Or where one base class plus maybe one PrC wasn't the norm. So that doesn't seem like an unreasonable expectation at all.

Hm... I need to fix your hole in your experiences then. Some of my favorite games were ones where I'd dm my buddies who'd be playing a barbarian1/fighter2/totemist3/swordsage1 (setting himself up for a prc in the process), a dfa7, and a binder4/bard3. The multi-multi classing character was by far the most interesting one with a very cohesive net effect. Rather than fitting the box of a stereotyped "class", he was Ragnor, the Crushing Tentacle Horror. The bard/binder didn't work very well but the player had fun doing a little bit of something. The DFA just had fun pretending to be a dragon-man, actually being marginally effective was a bonus.

that being said, a "2 and 2" combo is very reasonable. It actually can be tricky to do more than that and have it actually all work together. My issue was with the comment "more than 1 prc = instant CHEEZE!".

Now, all that being said, I typically tend to build characters around concepts inspired by a prc, so I often just take a single prc and max it out. But I don't judge others who put together interesting characters with a more varied background when they're rp'd well.

It doesn't take three base classes in order for someone to rp poorly and make a character I don't care to dm for.

[Rubik]

That's not really the same, though. A Lawful Barbarian is non-standard, but he's talking about the idea that all barbarians must be savage tribesmen, nomads, or other uncivilized culture, because that's what the in-book fluff describes them as - i.e., in-game constructs. A barbarian can't just be a guy -say, a member of the town guard - who gets really angry and fights better when he's pissed off. Only a Fighter can be a member of the town guard, because Fighters are professional soldiers according to the in-book fluff.This. Entirely this.

I come up with character concepts that the game cannot support mechanically unless I'm dipping all over the place, and yet I build to concept rather than to power. I AM an optimizer, and I make sure that my characters work well mechanically, but there are so many things that just don't work well at ALL if you don't mix and match.

Sure I could make a stock-standard dwarven fighter or elven wizard, but that's not nearly as fun as the stillborn undead spawn of Cthulu who uses seven different base classes, one racial class, and a couple of PrCs to make, and yet isn't half as powerful as a wizard 20 (but is still fun as hell).

[eggs]

That's not really the same, though. A Lawful Barbarian is non-standard, but he's talking about the idea that all barbarians must be savage tribesmen, nomads, or other uncivilized culture, because that's what the in-book fluff describes them as - i.e., in-game constructs. A barbarian can't just be a guy -say, a member of the town guard - who gets really angry and fights better when he's pissed off. Only a Fighter can be a member of the town guard, because Fighters are professional soldiers according to the in-book fluff.
Okay. That example works too.

I'm not trying to attack a playstyle. I plugged divorcing in internet discussions for a long time too. But then I noticed that of the twenty/thirty or so people I'd been gamed with, I was the only one who wasn't eg. using the Fighter to describe the professional soldier or the barbarian to represent the illiterate savage.

But generally speaking, I'm not going to pounce on someone who says that lots of classes in one build put up red flags. In my experience, they do for most players. They indicate a mechanical-mindedness that isn't all that common outside of communities built specifically around it.

[killem2]

I'm sorry but this sort of s-stirring is just asking for you to burn a bridge with your DM. If I ever found my players acting like this behind my back it would lead to some pretty uncomfortable sessions.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Here's the thing:

If you use something outside of Core, he's going to start banning those sources, because clearly it's the source, which is so obscure that not even HE heard of it (Complete what? Come on... that's gotta be 3rd party), which is horridly imbalanced.

So, I suggest Team Cleric.

Cleric 1) ClericZilla. Casts Divine Power on the first round, then wades in.

Cleric 2) Pretends he's a wizard. Has the Magic domain, uses wands and such.

Cleric 3) is the blastomancer. Use the cleric variant which lets you spontaneously cast from a domain rather than Cure x series. Pick up Sun domain. Maybe the Water domain for Cone of Cold. Maybe Destruction domain if you are feeling cruel with Implosion, Disintegrate or Harm.

[GenghisDon]

I'm not concerned with what others enjoy at their tables...play undead cthulhu babies with as many classes as you please.

In reverse to someone here: I'm not interested in DMing (or even playing) with such a character. Opposing/Fighting/Killing it is fine, however. I may very well make up a simular critter, but as the DM it's a pretty different scenario; I (usually) want to challenge or surprise the players, but not whipe them all out either. I'm awefully good at it, if i do say so myself.:smallwink:

As for those making a concept "work"...that's fine (in theory) too, so long as the concept fits the game at hand at least somewhat.

This includes not being too much weaker or too much stronger than the other PC's. To be honest, I DM, so it actually isn't much to me, but it's no fun for the other players at the table, hence it falls to me to try to keep that from happening if possible. No offense to anyone here, I'm sure you are all terrific team gamers, but quite a few players can't see past their own PC & enjoyment, and that can be a problem.

I should clarify the 99% cheese comment...It's intended mostly for a PC made up at Level X, with all the numbers lined up perfectly. I'm FAR more forgiving of characters that are actually played up. OTOH, it's not my DM style to have a character take a nap & suddenly wake up a completely different class, at least not without some RP/game time spent prior. It's simply too rediculous to countenace. YMMV. I don't feel bad if a PC gets into a prestige class (or just a new class) a level later than the minimum possible because he was in the middle of an adventure & wanted/was allowed to level up mid stride.

More to the point, I've come to realise that most "prestige classes" aren't needed at all anyway. A handful or dozen are cool for a campaign. The ones that "fixed" multi-class combos seemed a good idea at the time, but the gestalt rules remove any use for them at all. "but my gestalt rogue/wizard can't do ranged legerdemain!"..."Ok, I'll make it a feat". One can alter/tweak the base classes to do what one wants, especially after so many extra base classes were added to the game.

[planswalker]

The ones that "fixed" multi-class combos seemed a good idea at the time, but the gestalt rules remove any use for them at all. "but my gestalt rogue/wizard can't do ranged legerdemain!"..."Ok, I'll make it a feat".

... except that gestalt is an entire rule shift with a different dynamic and combo prc's use existing rules to all do the same.

OtOH, I take it from your post that you're not a fan of prc's at all, since you simplified them into two vast categories, claimed one was obsolete and the other of limited value. I take a vastly different interpretation of prc's...

but I just realized that this is very much de-railing the thread's stated topic.

OP, is there any more advice you want on your character concepts?

[GenghisDon]

nope, no longer a fan, although, as I said, they still have a (minor) place, IMHO.

sorry for the OT, but I thought I ought respond to several comments.

How about:

Human Binder 10, Knight of the Sacred Seal 5, Scion of Dantalion 5

or Human Cleric(Talos) 5 Stormlord 10 Warpriest 5

Human Bard 10, Sublime Chord 10

Human Wizard 5 Incantrix 10 Arch-Mage 5

OK?

[Killer Angel]

Here's the thing:

If you use something outside of Core, he's going to start banning those sources, because clearly it's the source, (...snip...), which is horridly imbalanced.

This is a good point... the more non-core you'll use, the more your DM will feel entitled to use the banhammer.
And there's always the fact that it could be true:


Human Wizard 5 Incantrix 10 Arch-Mage 5


(well, it's Incantatrix, but anyway...)

[Dairuga]

If you wish to kill all his three characters at once; Get yourself a level 20 wizard. That is the only thing you need. A wizard / Incantatrix would work even better.

Use whatever feats and equipment (Improved initiative and Ring of Anticipation comes to mind) to win the intiative roll. For additional fun, do the same with a Martial character using some White Raven Maneuvers for additional chances of winning the inititiative. What you need to do, is to survive for one round. Whether that means flying up high, casting fly and moving upwards; dimension door out of sight, become invisible or simply casting Prismatic wall around yourself as a Hemisphere, it matters not. You merely need to survive for one round.

And then, as the last character of your opponent's turn is finishing up, you cast Celerity. This gives you a standard action, which is everything you need.

Cast Time Stop.
This freezes time. You now have 1+1d4 turns of free time. The first turn vanishes, because Celerity dazes you. But even if you only get one free turn, that is all you need.

Next up, have your Wizard / incantantrix persist it. You now have 24 hours to do whatever. You can even rest up two twice and prepare two sets of new spells, should you wish so. Time is stopped for anyone but the wizard.

Time is stopped, so put it to use. Namely, Vortex of Teeth http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/spells.php?ID=6299

This is a spell from the Spell Compendium, and it deals 3d8 force damage to a 40-ft. radius, 20 ft. high, with a 5-ft.-radius safe zone at the center. The kicker? It deals damage right before your next turn. That is, once Time stop ceases to end, the time once again returns to the end of your opponent's last character's turn... Meaning your turn comes up next.

Load this spell up in -all- your available spell slots. Cast it eight times around every one of your enemy's three characters. That is 24d8 force damage to all of those characters, just like that; No save. Or better yet, given that it is only a fourth level spell, you will most likely have 8 spells per level from level 4-8 (At level 20, with 18 Int, +6 Int from headband, +6 int from, for example; custom-made ring of lucky intelligence to get a +6 Luck bonus to Int, etc, etc), due to 4 spells per level, plus 4 bonus spells or more, which in itself, Celerity aside, grants you 40 castings of Vortes of Teeth.

If you can get all your opponent's characters inside the 40 foot radius, which is very probable in an arena, that is 120d8 damage to all of them, once your turn comes around. Of course, spell resistance does apply; but at level 20, it really should not be a problem with Spell penetration / Greater Spell Penetration.

Now, if you do take the advantage of resting during Time Stop, You are granted a new, fresh bout of, to put it mildly, 40 more spells. That adds up to 240d8 Force damage. 360d8 force damage if you rest twice.

I would wish your opponent's character good luck in surviving that.
And this is all done with -one- wizard/Incantatrix.

[Randomguy]

Now, if you do take the advantage of resting during Time Stop, You are granted a new, fresh bout of, to put it mildly, 40 more spells. That adds up to 240d8 Force damage. 360d8 force damage if you rest twice.


From "time stop" in the SRD:

A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends.

For some reason, the duration of the time stop counts for the duration of the spells you cast while in time stop. So to make it so that you can have 2 days worth of vortex of teeth, you need to persist the first day's vortex of teeth.
Also, remember the argument against being able to persist time stop: The effect of the spell is instantaneous, it just speeds you up enough to give you X rounds of apparent time. So it can be empowered and maximized(so the spell speeds you up even more, giving you more rounds), but not extended.


You could of course do the same thing, but less extreme, by just using a normal time stop, although it's normally better to set up some battlefield control too, like dimension lock and acid fog (or solid fog or freezing fog), in case the enemy doesn't have freedom of movement. And you could always dispel it if they do have it.

[GenghisDon]

This is a good point... the more non-core you'll use, the more your DM will feel entitled to use the banhammer.
And there's always the fact that it could be true:



(well, it's Incantatrix, but anyway...)

LOL...I've used the word occassionaly since the 80's (she was a 1e dragon mag class...#90), one would think I'd recall that, but nope, miss out on sleep a couple days & I suppose I'm lucky to spell my name correctly.

I miss the origonal's flavour (& some crunch), crappy as the class was BITD. No doubt, I am a strange one. Still the metamagic mistress is a cool idea.

[Suddo]

People are way over thinking things with wizards and such.

Bard X / Crusader Y / Seeker of the Song 2 / War Chanter 2 (double check you can stack both the PrC's play additional Bard song effects if they don't only pick one the point is the same) Then play Dragonfire Inspiration multiple times and/or Insipire Courage. Check out this guide for more info. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830) This character will just start singing at the start of battle, maybe with a stance that is useful too.
Barbarian X / Totemist Y / Totem Rager 10 get pounce and then get as many attacks as possible. This can also be replaced by a Two-Weapon Fighting guy if you are feeling lazy.
War Troll (14) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040815b&page=6) / Half Black Dragon (4)/ Figther 3 (1 free LA) Basically does he have any way of beating this guy. Just pick up things that give more regeneration (I think Fiend Folio has some) and then like toughness or something unoptimized.

Edit: Oh and I might have to agree with other people who say winning this might not be the best decision.

[Rubik]

Also, remember the argument against being able to persist time stop: The effect of the spell is instantaneousBut the duration is not. It's 1d4+1 rounds, which is neither permanent nor instantaneous, and so Extend does work. The fact that people don't LIKE that is another thing altogether, but RAW as posited in the PHB it's fine.

To the OP: Also, what if instead of doing a face-to-face slaughter, you show your DM all the cool things that non-Core allows you to do that you can't in Core? There are lots of characters that Core-only just can't do. Why don't we come up with awesome character concepts and mechanics that can't be done via the PHB, MM, and DMG?

[Suddo]

But the duration is not. It's 1d4+1 rounds, which is neither permanent nor instantaneous, and so Extend does work. The fact that people don't LIKE that is another thing altogether, but RAW as posited in the PHB it's fine.

I prefer to the argument that if you extend the time stop fine, 2d4+2 rounds, but if you persist it you increase it to you have 1d4+1 rounds for the day. Kind of backwards but also kind of funny.

[planswalker]

I prefer to the argument that if you extend the time stop fine, 2d4+2 rounds, but if you persist it you increase it to you have 1d4+1 rounds for the day. Kind of backwards but also kind of funny.

Well, the ELH specifically says that time stop can't have its duration altered, so 3.0 is out of luck. ELH was also updated to 3.5, so there's that.