steel wind + iaijutsu focus

[limejuicepowder]

would this combo work to add iaijutsu damage on to two attacks? Fluff-wise I think it absolutely would, but what about RAW?

edit: unrelated, but can cunning insight be added to a saving throw made with Moment of Perfect Mind (or similar)?

[Fouredged Sword]

As a general rule precision damage adds only to the first effect of an attack that allows for multiple attack rolls. Iaijutsu focus is a type of precision damage. You deal sneak attack damage once no matter how may scorching rays you shoot, and only once with both attacks with steel wind.

Now if the first attack missed you would deal the sneak attack damage with the second attack, but once you deal the damage with an action you don't get to deal it again. (there are exceptions, but all specifically called out)

[Kelb_Panthera]

Actually, Iaijutsu focus damage is not precision damage. I'd say it works fine since the two attacks are resolved seperately. This assumes, of course, that both targets are flat-footed.

[Siosilvar]

Iaijutsu Focus: "Whenever you are making an attack roll immediately after drawing a weapon and your target is flat-footed..."

Steel Wind's two attacks are simultaneous and resolved separately, so I think it would work. I'd wait for Curmudgeon to come along and give his opinion first, though.


Cunning Insight doesn't apply to the Diamond Mind save maneuvers, which all specify that it's a Concentration check used to determine the save's success. You're not making a save with your Concentration bonus instead, it's just a Concentration check against the save DC.

[TheFallenOne]

Well, keep in mind Oriental Adventures is 3.0, so if you play by the rules the two things won't be present in the same game anyway.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well, keep in mind Oriental Adventures is 3.0, so if you play by the rules the two things won't be present in the same game anyway.

This is absolutely wrong. Anything from 3.0 is okay in 3.5 unless it has been specifically updated in a later source.

[ThiagoMartell]

This is absolutely wrong. Anything from 3.0 is okay in 3.5 unless it has been specifically updated in a later source.

Correct.


As a general rule precision damage adds only to the first effect of an attack that allows for multiple attack rolls.
Then it's good thing Iaijutsu Focus does not deal precision damage.



Steel Wind's two attacks are simultaneous and resolved separately, so I think it would work. I'd wait for Curmudgeon to come along and give his opinion first, though.

I'm inclined to save it works by RAI, but does not work by RAW. You draw you make one attack, then you make another one. It's pretty clear the second one is not made immediately after drawing the weapon.
By RAI, it makes sense. Iaijutsu Focus in 3.5 is all about focusing ki to increase momentum, after all.
I'd allow it in my games, but by RAW, it does not work.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Correct.


Then it's good thing Iaijutsu Focus does not deal precision damage.


I'm inclined to save it works by RAI, but does not work by RAW. You draw you make one attack, then you make another one. It's pretty clear the second one is not made immediately after drawing the weapon.
By RAI, it makes sense. Iaijutsu Focus in 3.5 is all about focusing ki to increase momentum, after all.
I'd allow it in my games, but by RAW, it does not work.

I respectfully disagree. Both attacks are made against a flat-footed targets immediately after drawing the weapon. Now imo both Thiagho Martell and I have valid interpretations of RAW, but if that's to much ambiguity for you, try this on for size: nothing in steel wind says both attacks have to be made with the same weapon.

[Flickerdart]

As a general rule precision damage adds only to the first effect of an attack that allows for multiple attack rolls. Iaijutsu focus is a type of precision damage. You deal sneak attack damage once no matter how may scorching rays you shoot, and only once with both attacks with steel wind.

Now if the first attack missed you would deal the sneak attack damage with the second attack, but once you deal the damage with an action you don't get to deal it again. (there are exceptions, but all specifically called out)
Uh, no. You're thinking of volley attacks, where you have many attacks using one attack roll (manyshot, great flyby), where extra dice indeed only apply to one attack. The general rule of thumb is "1 attack roll = 1 instance of extra dice", so if you roll two separate attack rolls, they both get the bonus damage.

[TechnOkami]

I think this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134276) would work much more cheesily better for the kinds of shenanigans you should be pulling. :smallbiggrin:

[limejuicepowder]

I think this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134276) would work much more cheesily better for the kinds of shenanigans you should be pulling. :smallbiggrin:

As awesome as that build is, I can't imagine a lot of DM's allowing that kind of shenanigans. Plus it's mad high level. Steel wind w/ iaijutsu focus is a reasonable application, while that pretty much isn't.

[Quietus]

Your main problem is going to be that iaijutsu only applies to an attack made immediately after drawing your weapon; So, the first attack of Steel Wind, regardless of whether it hits or misses. You need some way to keep drawing weapons between attacks to qualify for iaijutsu on all of them.

[Saintheart]

Which brings up the old issue of whether iaijutsu applies to unarmed attacks. By RAW it doesn't. As it is, to draw weapons between attacks: either Gnomish Quickrazors, or have a couple of longswords with Least Crystals of Return on them, since they allow for drawing as a free action. Strike once with iaijutsu focus, drop your weapon, draw the next one, strike again.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Ahem.....
.... there's nothing in steel wind that says both attacks have to be made with the same weapon.
stupid 10 character post requirement

[limejuicepowder]

Ahem.....
stupid 10 character post requirement

So you could draw as a free action (multiple ways to do this), use steel wind to strike once, then draw another weapon as a free action, and use the second strike?

Even if that is more RAW, I think it is much more cheesified than using the same weapon (RAI perhaps?)

[ThiagoMartell]

Uh, no. You're thinking of volley attacks, where you have many attacks using one attack roll (manyshot, great flyby), where extra dice indeed only apply to one attack. The general rule of thumb is "1 attack roll = 1 instance of extra dice", so if you roll two separate attack rolls, they both get the bonus damage.

Rules Compendium disagrees with you, unfortunatelly. Even eldritch glaive seems like it only gets one roll. There is no mention of description of 'volley attacks' anywhere in the rules, it's just something we came up with in D&D forums.


So you could draw as a free action (multiple ways to do this), use steel wind to strike once, then draw another weapon as a free action, and use the second strike?

Even if that is more RAW, I think it is much more cheesified than using the same weapon (RAI perhaps?)

You don't even need to draw as a free action. You can draw as part of a move action. Yeah, you need it for the second attack. Skill tricks could help.
With two weapons, while it makes no senses regarding how iai works in real life (you need a free hand to hold the sheath), it does work by RAW.
Of course, Wolf Fang Strike works better for this, since then you can attack the same target with both attacks.


Which brings up the old issue of whether iaijutsu applies to unarmed attacks. By RAW it doesn't. As it is, to draw weapons between attacks: either Gnomish Quickrazors, or have a couple of longswords with Least Crystals of Return on them, since they allow for drawing as a free action. Strike once with iaijutsu focus, drop your weapon, draw the next one, strike again.
Actually, I think it's specifically stated iaijutsu focus is used by martial artists to break objects unarmed in Oriental Adventures.

[Siosilvar]

Your main problem is going to be that iaijutsu only applies to an attack made immediately after drawing your weapon; So, the first attack of Steel Wind, regardless of whether it hits or misses. You need some way to keep drawing weapons between attacks to qualify for iaijutsu on all of them.

Thing is, I don't think there is a "first" attack. "As you initiate this strike" is when both attacks are made - sounds simultaneous to me. Then resolving them separately gets around the volley attack limit (if that were an issue).

Fluffwise, it's probably one stroke, which would mean that there'd be a first and a second target, but by fluff I'd say that Iaijustu focus could apply to every attack made with a single stroke (including the first Cleave bonus attack).


I'm not inclined to believe that you can draw a weapon in between the Steel Wind attacks, since they're made at the same time. That'd be like dropping your bow after your first two arrows of a Manyshot and drawing a new one - doesn't make any sense at all.

[Deophaun]

Thing is, I don't think there is a "first" attack. "As you initiate this strike" is when both attacks are made - sounds simultaneous to me. Then resolving them separately gets around the volley attack limit (if that were an issue).
If the attacks are simultaneous, then the targets for each attack need to be called out before any attack resolves. No waiting to see if you drop the first target before deciding on hitting the second allowed, whether or not you're using IF.

[Siosilvar]

If the attacks are simultaneous, then the targets for each attack need to be called out before any attack resolves. No waiting to see if you drop the first target before deciding on hitting the second allowed, whether or not you're using IF.

...yes? It's not a full attack, there's no provision for holding back either of the attacks. Steel Wind (as seen on the maneuver cards, and the same text as in the book):
Iron Heart (Strike)
Level: Warblade 1
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target: Two creatures
You swing your weapon in a broad, deadly arc, striking two foes with a single, mighty blow.
Through a combination of sheer power and unmatched talent, you make an attack that injures multiple opponents. As you initiate this strike, you make two melee attacks, each against a different foe that you threaten. Resolve each attack separately.

Pick two targets, make one attack against each simultaneously but separately as a standard action. There is no "first target".

[limejuicepowder]

If the attacks are simultaneous, then the targets for each attack need to be called out before any attack resolves. No waiting to see if you drop the first target before deciding on hitting the second allowed, whether or not you're using IF.

You also cannot hit the same person twice with steel wind, making your second sentence moot.