Question on Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion

[Etrivar]

Hullo Playgrounders!

In our gaming session yesterday, a situation arose that was not covered in the PHB. We had to infiltrate a MMM in order to retreive a person inside (the explanation of why we couldn't get the person after they just walked out of the mansion is long and involved; suffice it to say, that wasn't a viable option). We knew where the door was, having seen the mage enter the mansion, but we couldn't catch the password. So, instead of us going in, we decided to try and get the people inside, out. Our logic was thus: the MMM spell creates an extradimensional pocket, so dispelling the spell would cause the pocket to collapse, thereby expelling the occupants.

But nowhere in the description of the spell does it say what happens when it gets dispelled (or even if it's dispellable at all). Does it eject the occupants like water squirting out of a bottle? Does it drop the occupants in one big pile where the door used to be? Does it remove the door while leaving the planar pocket untouched, stranding the occupents? Do the people inside get killed by the turbulent collapse of the extradimensional space? Would the door being within the area of an area dispell be sufficient, or would you have to specifically target where you know the door to be?

Any clarification or suggestions as to how to work this would be greatly appreciated!

[nessus]

There are ALOT of things wotc could not anticipate or write rules for so DM's are encouraged to be inventive when such situations occur. Now if it were me trying to get those people out (when technically you simply cant) I would try and determine what dimension the "dimensional pocket" bulges into and would try and enter through there (just a plan of the top of my head)
but about a destroyed or dispelled MMM I would go with dimensional collapse similar to a broken staff of power (there is a chance you will be ok but there is a chance you will be sent hurdling through the planes to end up on a random place on a random plane) and just to discourage players who think its a good idea to create a MMM to imprison people inside and then dispel it to send them on a netherese roller coaster i would say that the dispel-er as the same chance as the dispel-ee to be randomly ported. well thats my take on it :)

[jackattack]

For the RAW crowd, note that the much-debated term "extradimensional" is used in Magnificent Mansion and in Rope Trick. When Rope Trick ends, anything in the extradimensional space drops out, so one might assume the same of Magnificent Mansion. Everything inside winds up in a pile (or scattered evenly) outside the site of the entrance.

However, the description also says that outside conditions do not affect the mansion. This suggests that casting Dispel Magic might only remove the portal, which seems redundant as the portal is closed once the mansion's caster enters. You might rule that the portal is now gone, instead of being sealed, and the Magnificent Mansion has to be cast again to get the portal back.

Dispel Magic's area of effect option specifies that it includes each ongoing area spell whose point of origin is in the dispel area of effect. I would argue that the portal into the mansion is the point of origin for the extradimensional area of effect, and falls under that rule. You don't have to target the portal specifically, just catch it in the Dispel Magic AOE.

[Psyren]

Actually, RAW covers this just fine:


You conjure up an extradimensional dwelling that has a single entrance on the plane from which the spell was cast.

Two important sections in that quote:

1) The spell creates the entire dwelling (mansion), not just the entrance.
2) Though the mansion itself is extradimensional, part of the spell effect (the entrance) still touches the plane of origin.

This means two things: (a) you can affect the mansion with Dispel Magic (part of it is on your plane, so you don't need transdimensional spell etc), and (b) the spell creates the entire mansion, not just the entrance, so if you dispel it, the entire thing will go, not just the entrance.

So to conclude, you can dispel the mansion just fine. As for where the occupants will appear on your plane, simply ask your DM what would happen if they had been inside until the duration ran out:


A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired.

I would personally have all the occupants pile up in and around the square that the portal was in.

[Talionis]

I would rule there is nothing magical in the location to be dispelled and the door is only there when someone comes out. Anti Magic field would not hurt occupants or force them to come out unless the duration of the spell elapses and then they would land at the portal. I'd say you'd need something more powerful to puncture the spell.

In other words the mansion is all in a pocket dimension. But, if PCs come up with something inventive, I might let them in. But scare them later if they ever use the spell.

[ericgrau]

For each ongoing area or effect spell whose point of origin is within the area of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to dispel the spell.

MMM is an effect spell since it has an "Effect:" line. It has a point of origin just like it has a range (close) within which you must put the point of origin. So you can dispel it with an area dispel.

And any buff to a spell to make it immune to a counter is effectively a nerf to that counter. Once DMs do this enough players learn to never bother preparing counters to anything because they won't work against anything that matters anyway. They should just hit stuff instead. This is boring.

[Togo]

I would personally have all the occupants pile up in and around the square that the portal was in.

I'd scatter them and the contents across the ethereal plane.

Since when has dimensionally warping space been a safe and consequence-free option? Maybe I watch too much Dr Who?

[only1doug]

I would rule there is nothing magical in the location to be dispelled and the door is only there when someone comes out. Anti Magic field would not hurt occupants or force them to come out unless the duration of the spell elapses and then they would land at the portal. I'd say you'd need something more powerful to puncture the spell.

In other words the mansion is all in a pocket dimension. But, if PCs come up with something inventive, I might let them in. But scare them later if they ever use the spell.

I'd disagree: the portal is shut and made invisible behind you when you enter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesMagnificentMansion.htm): a shut and invisible portal is not the same as nothing magical, if the PCs can see the invisible portal then they can hit it with a targetted dispel, if they can't then they can hit it with an area dispel, either way there is a part of the spell left for them to dispel and therefore end the effect. Also if they could get a character with iron heart surge inside the mansion.... :P

[Keneth]

As a GM I'd rule that you can't dispel the mansion by targeting the door's location, though I suppose that would technically count as the spell's point of origin. Or rather, I would allow the characters to dispel the door, not the whole mansion. That would be more fun.

RAW can be so boring sometimes. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

RAW can be so boring sometimes. :smalltongue:

You misspelled "consistent" :smallwink:

[Keneth]

You misspelled "consistent" :smallwink:
My word, you're right. Consistency can be so boring sometimes. :smallbiggrin:

[Duke of URL]

Having both an effect and a duration, magnificent mansion is subject to dispel magic and the like. A counter-example would be creating a permanent demiplane (i.e., genesis) and a means to transfer people to and from it. In that case, only the transport mechanism is subject to dispelling, and if it's an instantaneous effect, only at the moment it is cast.

Now, what happens when magnificent mansion is dispelled? There's no RAW answer for that, because the spell description doesn't specify what happens if a creature remains inside the spell's effect when its duration expires. The most reasonable ruling would be that they are expelled from the "entrance" to the mansion, but in what pattern (a heap on the floor, some kind of cone.spread, or line pattern leading away from the door, etc.) is strictly a DM call.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So to sum up: RAW says, "mmm can be dispelled." What dispelling does with mmm's occupants is a DM call.

[Psyren]

So to sum up: RAW says, "mmm can be dispelled." What dispelling does with mmm's occupants is a DM call.

Yep - though the one thing we DO know it does is get rid of the mansion, so wherever they are, they aren't there (anymore.)

Though that could be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the campaign.

[metabolicjosh]

There is a published adventure where they go to a plane of bags of holdings
just that they cant get out

[Bronk]

That sounds interesting... do you remember the name of the adventure?

[nedz]

Kind of reminiscent of KoDT's BagWorld :smallcool:

Back in the mansion:

The portal is invisible, but its still there.

Analyze Portal [Bard 2, Portal2, Wiz/Sorc 3: SpC] might get you in, otherwise try Gate or Plane Shift. These may need some lubrication from Rule 0 though so YMMV.

[Baroknik]

Or you could try knocking (maybe with a clever disguise).

[PaucaTerrorem]

Or you could try knocking (maybe with a clever disguise).

Land-shark!

+1 if you get it.

[ericgrau]

Dispel magic causes the spell to end, same as if its duration expired. So the extradimensional mansion would no longer exist. I assume the occupants would fall out. Otherwise they'd be in some sort of limbo, but they wouldn't be in that mansion or extradimensional space anymore, because they no longer exist.


Or you could try knocking (maybe with a clever disguise).

Claim to be a door to door sheep salesman. You might at least get them to look.

[John Longarrow]

Land-shark!

+1 if you get it.

You are about 16 hours too late. I did this to my neighbor yesterday. He didn't get it though...

\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
---F R I E N D---
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

[nedz]

Thread Necromancy guys.

[Bronk]

I don't think so... I think the dates are just showing up incorrectly. I replied a couple of days ago I think, and you can see that the date is for two years or so ago...

[nedz]

I've not come across dates being wrong on this forum before — and my post from 2012 is definitely old.

[Bronk]

Hmm, I might have mixed it up with a similar post...

[Braininthejar2]

No idea if it displays correctly - got here through search.

Just one thing then:

The old Planescape adventure book Modron March involved a magnificent mansion being dispelled - it expelled the occupants through the entry point, resulting in a pile of adventurers filling a broom closet.

[ShaneMRoth]

I'm reposted what I said about MMM on rpg StackExchange...

Original Link (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/55580/dispelling-mage-s-magnificent-mansion)
The published rules offer ample and consistent support for a ruling that Mage's Magnificent Mansion can only be subject to Dispel Magic from within the Mansion itself.

There is the matter of line of effect:


You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect.


Since the mansion is explicitly described as being in extradimensional space, the mansion does not exist on the Prime Material Plane. By that virtue, there is no clear line of effect between a caster of Dispel Magic outside of the Mansion and the Mansion itself.

The description of the spell's portal is also unambiguous:


Since the place can be entered only through its special portal, outside conditions do not affect the mansion, nor do conditions inside it pass to the plane beyond.


While it doesn't explicitly spell out that the special portal blocks line of effect, this conclusion is consistent with the nature and level of the spell, and it is also consistent with the 3.5 ruleset, as published.

As to the matter of casting Dispel Magic in regards to interdimensional magic... the spell description for Dispel Magic is also far from silent.


An interdimensional interface (such as a bag of holding) is temporarily closed.


The Magnificent Mansion portal seems like ‘an interdimensional interface’.

[Crake]

First thread necro went unnoticed, wonder if the second one will too :smalltongue:

Also your quote about interdimensional interfaces being temporarily closed was strictly in the context of magic items. It is arguable that the "interdimensional interface" that is made with a magnificent mansion is part of the effect of the mansion itself, exists on the material plane, and is thus targetable by a dispel magic, which, if using a targetted version (not area effect, since that only dispels things within the area, of which the rest of the mansion would not be in) you could dispel the whole mansion.

If you used the area version, only the entrance would be dispelled, preventing anyone from exiting. Since the entrance is instantaneously dispelled (since it's not an item) the only way back would be to gate/plane shift out of the mansion, or hope your DM allows you to be ejected out where the mansion was cast when it ends, else be lost somewhere among the planes due to your unanchored extradimensional space drifting off elsewhere.

[Douglas]

The Mod Radiant: Please do not necro old threads.