How do I flesh out a city's thieves' guild? And why would they not just kill Lv2 PCs?

[Pika...]

So I am DMing again, and while thrilled to be doing it again, I am at a loss as to what to do about what my PCs did in our first session...

Basically, as Lv.1 PCs they managed to not only take down two hubs of the thieves' guild in my setting's main city (One they cleared out, the other was forced to move shop), but in addition went straight to a mid-level guild member's mansion residence in the rich part of the city and burned it to the ground (by accident...) in a spectacle.

I figured they were dead meat by going to the higher-level guild member's residence, but oh the joy in my DM heart as my players not only survived, but a greedy PC managed to snatch just the right stack of paperwork, off just the right desk, in just the right room they barged in to to get a list of all the thieves' guild's hubs in that district/section of the city. And after getting threatened by the thieves' guild they still turned the paperwork into the authorities. :smalleek:

So the session left off with an assassination attempt at their house (they bought a smithy in the city for some reason...) by five drow assassins (aka Lv.1 Rogues), which I put on the Very Difficult end of encounters, yet they survived.

So now I need to flesh out the thieves' guild, but I do not have much experience in guilds, thieves' guilds especially. I need a criminal/boss hierarchy I imagine, and I guess I need to figure out how many hubs/bases/etc a metropolis level city would have, and such. I already stated in game that each hub only knows of one other hub, with an emergency contact if things go wrong (aka the mid-level NPC).

Also, I need to figure out a reasonable excuse as to why the guild just doesn't snuff them out for taking out a whole district (the metropolis city is divided into various districts, half of which are racial districts) of their "hubs" (is that even the proper term?). I mean, that is a pretty big insult, and they have high level killers to easily kill Lv.1 (now Lv.2) PCs.

Oh, and if you have any ideas on how I can roleplay interaction between the PCs and the guild, as well as advice on how to get the PCs involved in what is essentially becoming an arch of my campaign (the first arch I guess).


Many Pikas in advance!

[LadyLexi]

A suggestion about why not to kill them. This very bold display has impressed the leader of the thieves guild. Why simply kill these valuable assets when he can capture them and put them under his thumb. Geas does a good job of placing them under his control and he can always back it up with death/torture/pain. If they have family members, those family members might be taken and used as leverage.

[Pika...]

A suggestion about why not to kill them. This very bold display has impressed the leader of the thieves guild. Why simply kill these valuable assets when he can capture them and put them under his thumb. Geas does a good job of placing them under his control and he can always back it up with death/torture/pain. If they have family members, those family members might be taken and used as leverage.

I like that idea.

Only issues are that while almost all the party is semi-crooked, and would probably ask for official membership cards, one is playing a stick-up-the-behind pally, and one is guard of the Psionic monastery/small district of the city. The semi-city guard is by his own words playing a bar-brawler "enforcer" type (A dwarf in biker dress and sunglasses. LoL).

[Tim Proctor]

Well Cityscape has some good rules on Guilds, I would go there to start fleshing it out.

As far as why they don't kill the group, probably because if the section chief (that got destroyed) has common sense will say that he was ratted out by a higher ranking member that died recently, rather than admitting to the fact that a bunch of level 1s did it. I would then have that guy in jail, but he is vengeful against the party but because the loss of his power is he helpless to kill them at the moment. Once he gets out (they should be a couple levels higher) and then he can start hunting them, but while trying to keep his secret. If the word got out that a group of level 1 adventures completely ruined everything he worked for, no one would respect him ever again. If the word on the street is that some rat in the organization spilled the beans to the cops and this guy killed said rat then his reputation would be in better form.

[Mystral]

How about having to feuding thieves guilds in the city and they just damaged one of them, so the other one gives them an offer of protection, for the right price? Maybe make that second thieves guild a good thieves guild, but with less power then the one the pcs attacked. Just have them delivered a message for a meeting and give them an offer they can't refuse. If they do refuse, make it clear that they are messing with a powerfull organisation without support and should either get support or skip town. If they continue laughing into the guilds faces, send them an encounter they can't possibly win, but don't kill them. Just let them know that the guild has their marks but give them a last chance to run away.

If they still don't get it, pull out the stops and send in a real hit squad. Not 5 level 1 rogues, more like 4 level 4-5 dudes.

How would I build a thieves guild?

I would think mafia. You want a cell structure, that means, the members of the guild only know their direct underlings and their direct boss. Under no circumstance should a middle class member have the adresses of half the guilds hubs just lying around. the guild should make an example out of him.

On the top, there's the big boss, or maybe the shadow council. That could be anyone from a high level rogue, a dragon in disguise, a powerfull wizard, the lord of the city himself, a high priest to a god of thievery etc.

You want to have some high level characters in the upper echelons of the guild, think wizards, beguilers, rogues, assassins, clerics. Each of them directly reports to the boss. There should be cells for burglary, information gathering, pick pocketing, beggary, information gathering and all that. On the middle level should be competent npcs operating small teams of low level npcs.

Take, for example, a cell that specialises on pick pocketing. Such a cell would be led by a level 5-6 rogue with skill focus sleight of hand and other various skills, under him he should have maybe 2 other rogues and 4-5 experts, all focusing on different aspects. Some of them could be performers that distract the marks, you could have some children like in oliver twist.

A thief guild should also have contacts to the guard, maybe have some officers bribed. The information the pcs gave the city guard might just go.. missing.

[Gavinfoxx]

Geas and Mark of Justice. Have the Trickery/Kobold domain Cloistered Cleric, the spiritual leader of the Thieves guild (reflavor kobold domain is just 'traps' domain), cast the spells on the player characters...

Just update this character to be high enough level...

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=292794

[Quellian-dyrae]

I'd just go with pragmatism for why they don't kill them. These guys just cleared out two of their hubs, and took out a group of five drow assassins. Even though you as DM know that the guild has sufficient resources to take them out, the guild leadership wouldn't necessarily be so certain, and further attacks are only likely to prompt an aggressive response. The assassins were the "make an example of them" move; with them defeated, the thieves may well decide they are too dangerous to engage directly.

Alternately, since the PCs just turned over that information to the authorities, and the thieves may not even have the capacity to do anything about them at this point. Unless the authorities are in their pockets, you're probably looking at a lot of scrambling just to keep the guild in-tact and important leadership out of the dungeons.

If you want the guild to be a driving force in the story for a while, this gives the PCs a good opportunity to be able to take the initiative. They could be asked to assist with tracking down specific ranking members of the guild, clearing out smaller hubs, and so on, while the authorities keep the "big guns" scrambling. Once the PCs have gained a few levels and can hold their own, things might have calmed down enough that the thieves can reconsolidate some of their power and start dedicating some actual resources to wiping out the people who started this whole thing - only now they're level-appropriate challenges.

[Ranting Fool]

Well Cityscape has some good rules on Guilds, I would go there to start fleshing it out.

As far as why they don't kill the group, probably because if the section chief (that got destroyed) has common sense will say that he was ratted out by a higher ranking member that died recently, rather than admitting to the fact that a bunch of level 1s did it. I would then have that guy in jail, but he is vengeful against the party but because the loss of his power is he helpless to kill them at the moment. Once he gets out (they should be a couple levels higher) and then he can start hunting them, but while trying to keep his secret. If the word got out that a group of level 1 adventures completely ruined everything he worked for, no one would respect him ever again. If the word on the street is that some rat in the organization spilled the beans to the cops and this guy killed said rat then his reputation would be in better form.

This would be my first thought. Why do people pay "protection" money to the theives guild... well because they are scary. Now if people knew that they could be smacked down by a random collection of hero types then maybe others might get the idea that the theives guild ISN'T scary and you don't have to fear telling the guards what you know/refuse to pay.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would second the scrambling from the law defense. The guild likely is shattering after such a blow. Thieves are in it for the money. Most the mid and high ranks are ghosting and trying to avoid the notice of the law. They know they have the law in their pockets, so as long as they act cool the law will be left sweeping up a bunch of low level minions and closing the doors on lots of operations, but not actually getting anything important.

Now the squad was likely sent by someone mid level, but not smart or cool enough to know to keep his head down. He is gonna draw the law down hard, but he may do a lot of damage along the way. Have the party square off on him to try to prevent him going into an all out street war with the cops that would leave many dead.

As they sweep up the the victory the deserve, have the guards congratulate them, give them and ask them to help with another problem as the guards think they can sweep up the rest of the guild.

Jump forward to after the party returns from the other mater (bandits in the woods maybe?)

The party returns expecting to hear of the guild having fallen. They are stronger and tougher now. When they get back they learn that the guild is still functioning. The higher ups all avoided the sweep. Hubs moved and reopened. Business as usual.

And now the higher ups feel safer. Now is a good time to start thinking of a little revenge. Only if it's in the budget this month though.

[Ranting Fool]

...
And now the higher ups feel safer. Now is a good time to start thinking of a little revenge. Only if it's in the budget this month though.

And since brute force didn't work (those pesky PC's are good at killing things) it's time to start blaming the PC's for crimes they didn't do. Lets see how THEY like the city watch after them... a few coins in the right pocket and a whisper here or there and the PC's could end up looking worse then Erythnul (God of Slaughter) I mean how often are thieves all about the sledgehammer instead of a subtle knife :smallbiggrin:

[LadyLexi]

I like that idea.

Only issues are that while almost all the party is semi-crooked, and would probably ask for official membership cards, one is playing a stick-up-the-behind pally, and one is guard of the Psionic monastery/small district of the city. The semi-city guard is by his own words playing a bar-brawler "enforcer" type (A dwarf in biker dress and sunglasses. LoL).

The paladin might be persuaded to comply with the theives guild if the circumstances were dire enough. "See those children, twenty youth ones eager to prove themselves, desperately hungry. I gave them food, took them in to work for me when the city deserted them. Do you want their blood on your hands? Do you want to blood of countless others to be caused by you? I am not asking you to do anything evil, or even entirely amoral."

If the paladin continues to refuse/deny him, "Deny me once more and I will have those of your faith murdered where they lie, I will have you strung up and your skin will be peeled from your bones. Last chance for peace, surely you see the good in this."

[Kelb_Panthera]

Since OP's group has a paladin I think this is worth saying before it ever comes up in game: the best way, imho, to prevent the paladin from falling, because he found himself in a no-win situation, is to remember this:

One man is never responsible for the actions of another.

Dropping the pally because he didn't give in to a hostage taker's demands is, imo, as bad as dropping him for actions taken by the party's CN rogue; maybe worse, since at some point the pally might have actually agreed to take responsibility for the rogue's behavior, but he certainly isn't in charge of his enemies.

[Pika...]

I LOVE what I am reading. I will be making the council, each of which is the leader of his/her own "branch". Below them will be a middle-man (like the one the PCs shamed), and below him will be cells/hubs each of which with a cell/hub leader. Does that sound right?

For the branch that just got wrecked, I had described the first hub the PCs took down as being a gambling establishment in the back of an idea candy and toys shop with the front full of kids and their parents (Made the PCs' lives a bit difficult there. :smallbiggrin:), so I figure they took down the "gambling branch" of the thieves' guild. Just not sure what happens to the council member who leads it at this point, though.

I could use some help/ideas on setting up the other branches, and what level all the members/leaders should be please.

Ideas I have so far:

-The Enforcer Branch
Notes:
*Led by Graakk, a Lv.12 Orc Fighter.
*This branch is in charge of "enforcing" the will of all the council members, offing anyone the council wants dead, shaking up or killing threats to the guild.
*No one in this branch knows of the location of any other branches' cells/hubs.

The Branches Middleman is:
???

Cells within this branch:
1. The Drow Sneaks:
Group of 4 Drow assassins (All Lv.2 Rogues) lead by a Drow Lv.3 Rogue. (Now only the Lv.3 leader and a single Lv.2 remain).

2. The Beatsticks:
Lead by a Lv.6 Orc Fighter who leads 10 Lv.1 Orc Warriors, 6 Lv.2 Orc Warriors, 4 Lv. 3 Orc Fighters, and 20 Lv.1 Goblin Warriors.

(Need more)


-The Gambling Branch
Notes:
*Led by Za Py (Royal Gem in Elven), a wealthy High Elf Merchant (Lv 14 Expert) in the city (Personally runs the largest Jewelers shop in the city).
*His branch is now dead???


-The Entertainment Branch
Notes:
*Led by the most frightening member of the council, Bathamorlen a Glabrezu Demon who somehow managed to remain on Origin after the demonic assault on the Drow race a few hundred years ago.
*This branch deals in every sort of illegal form of entertainment, though mostly of the bloody and darker kind as preferred by it's council leader.

The branches' middleman is:
???

Cells within this branch:
1. The Fight Club:
Hosts illegal underground fighting matches where people gamble on the winner, and if the loser dies during the fight.
Lead by a Gnoll Lv.4 Fighter who leads a Halfling bookie (Lv.2 Expert), and 6 Lv.1 Gnoll Warriors.

2. The Beast Fights:
Hosts illegal underground chicken-fights or dog-fights like battles to the death between monsters/magical beasts/etc which are illegally smuggled into the city by the cell members.
Led by a Half-Human/Half-Elf Lv.6 Ranger who leads 4 Lv.2 Rangers and 6 Lv.1 Rangers. He and his minions personally capture many of the beasts, though often pay for their "combatants" when needed or the desired prey is located too far from the city.

(Need more please)

[Fouredged Sword]

You need a thieving branch. It is divided into pickpockiting and burglary sub branches. Lead by a thief acrobat halfling/marshal 1(for cha to dex aura) with slight of hand maxed. Steals everything in combat with slight of hand and disarms. Runs from combat after stealing the weapon, wands, spellbooks and packs of the party.

Then you have the extortion and protection branch. This group has mostly rogue/fighters who max ranks in intimidate. They do the protection rackets for all the businesses. Led by a Zhentarim fighter/marshal 1(for cha to cha aura) who intimidates everyone in combat.

Finally you have the corruption and politics unit. This group focuses on finding out dirt on people in power and holding it over their heads. Lead by a marshal with high charisma. The cha to cha and cha to wis aura and skill focuses / skill boosting feats let him see what you don't want him to and then to use it as leverage.

Note I like adding a level of marshal to all my leader type mid level BBEGS. They are supposed to be leaders and this way they actually make their minions more potent. Plus social skills all get a boost (sense motive) and will saves go up. Helps fray the charm the BBEG to your side idea.

[Psyren]

As far as why they don't kill the group, probably because if the section chief (that got destroyed) has common sense will say that he was ratted out by a higher ranking member that died recently, rather than admitting to the fact that a bunch of level 1s did it. I would then have that guy in jail, but he is vengeful against the party but because the loss of his power is he helpless to kill them at the moment. Once he gets out (they should be a couple levels higher) and then he can start hunting them, but while trying to keep his secret. If the word got out that a group of level 1 adventures completely ruined everything he worked for, no one would respect him ever again.

Point of order; levels are an abstraction. How does this guy know that the PCs are "a bunch of level 1s?" If they pulled off (even if through dumb luck, especially clever tactics, what have you) a feat that should only have been possible for a more experienced party, why wouldn't he in fact believe them to be the hardened professionals they appear to be?

In which case, recruit them/coerce them might be the more attractive course of action than continuing to waste bodies, particularly when doing so might only make them easy pickings for a rival guild or crusading official. At the very least, they might want to cool it and spy on the PCs a bit before going on the offensive again, which could allow the DM breathing room to rerail the plot and plan his next move. It could even allow the PCs a chance to level up, making further reprisals by the TG more manageable.


As for the paladin, I have no really good advice here. If he's playing it as straightforward as you say and you want him to work with a guild that employs assassins, you may have your work cut out for you. So far the "good rival thieves guild" seems the better solution here but if I were the paladin player I'd see through it in an instant.

[Tim Proctor]

Point of order; levels are an abstraction. How does this guy know that the PCs are "a bunch of level 1s?" If they pulled off (even if through dumb luck, especially clever tactics, what have you) a feat that should only have been possible for a more experienced party, why wouldn't he in fact believe them to be the hardened professionals they appear to be?


Two things Knowledge (Local), Sense Motive. If a level 12 Rogue/Thief doesn't beat a level 1 (1s and 20s don't automatically fail or succeed on skills) then they are doing it wrong.

Knowledge Local allows you to identify humanoids, In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. DC 11, they have maybe 15 ranks in Knowledge Local in a roll a 1, they got a good identification of race, what type of level they are (high or low), and another aspect. Sense Motive will see through their disguise and a Rogue that can't see through a lvl 1 Bluff/Disguise check should just retire (which is entirely the case).

This guy failed that check and would be entirely embarrassed to admit it. These guys look like kids straight out of highschool or people fresh off the boat. They look low level, whether or not that is a disguise from high level guys pretending to be low level and the thief failed his skill check, or low level guys and the thief made his skill check, the only thing he thinks is that they seem low level.

[dextercorvia]

This guy failed that check and would be entirely embarrassed to admit it. These guys look like kids straight out of highschool or people fresh off the boat. They look low level, whether or not that is a disguise from high level guys pretending to be low level and the thief failed his skill check, or low level guys and the thief made his skill check, the only thing he thinks is that they seem low level.

Cf. Burn After Reading. Don't actually watch it, except for Dann Florek's part, but suffice it to say, people chalk dumb luck up to expertise some times.

[JustPlayItLoud]

Level 1 characters cleared out a thieves' guild chapter house? No way. They couldn't find those chapter houses if they jumped up and bit the PCs. Those houses? Derelict hideouts for lowly cutpurses. Those guys got into the guild by asking nicely. The guild probably wouldn't really even notice they're all dead for a few days. Those "assassins" were just the other guys' buddies looking for revenge since one of them spotted the PCs entering the place.

Those documents? Fakes. They were going to be handed over to the authorities by an "informant" in the next few days to throw the guards off the scent of a big load of smuggled cargo coming into the docks district (unless it's a land bound city) next week.

1st level thieves are almost beneath the guild's notice. Why would 1st level non-members draw any more notice?

The owner of the burned down house I would imagine seeking independent retribution (since the guild of course would take no interest in a bunch of nobodies) against the PCs and that could serve as a great stepping stone to draw them further in. Thieves' guild type scenarios are immensely fun and can take a party from level 1 all the way up to level 20 with a battle against the leader of the guild and his elite enforcers.

[Mystral]

For your thieves guild, you might like to research the law of "omerta" (call it something different in your game, of course).

Basically it says that someone who gets caught by the law keeps his mouth shut about anything he knows. When he does, the guild looks after his next of kin and does its best to get him out of jail or at least make his stay tolerable. If he talks, he and his family and his friends are fish food.

[ericgrau]

2 reasons:
1. The PCs are not their only enemies. They also have to worry about town authorities. For that matter the PC might go under the protection of the town guard and be asked to assist in the shutting down of the guilds since they've done such a good job so far. And like the guild the guard also has other foes to worry about so any assistance is helpful. Really the plot writes itself.

2. It would not be unreasonable for the head of the guild to be level 5 and the members to be level 1-3. Level 5 is typical for a captain and 1-3 for his men. Sure some legendary guilds might exceed that and have one of the greatest rogues there is with a few level 5 elites under him, but who says they're a legendary guild?

But if you've already fleshed them out as a high level guild... see #1 again. It's a pain to do this when the PCs should be the heroes, but they may need a little extra assistance.

[Psyren]

Knowledge Local allows you to identify humanoids, In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.

I'm aware of all that, but none of that actually tells you the character's level. Making to check to know that Jim Darkmagic is a wizard won't tell you if he is 1 or 10; Aside from learning his classes, you would only have Jim's accomplishments to go on to guess at his level*.

*Below 11 anyway, the threshold at which the cosmos starts to notice your deeds (e.g. Legend Lore, Vision, truename research.) And even then, such methods only provide a cutoff, not the actual level.

[Andorax]

Point of order, Psyren:

Complete Adventure p102 (Sense Motive to assess opponents).

A successful check, particularly a high check, allows you to determine if a foe is:
4 or more below your Level/HD
1-3 below your Level/HD
Equal to your Level/HD
1-3 above your Level/HD or
4 or more above your Level/HD

So no, not with pinpoint accuracy (unless you have one of each of many HD who can make checks until someone gets an equal result)...but you most certainly can get a good idea of someone's level.



As to the OP's situation, another possibility is that the sub-boss that the PCs took out is a direct rival/enemy of one of the other sub-bosses within the organization, one that has benefitted directly from the PC's adventures to-date. He may have offered to "take care of the problem" to the higher-ups...may have even been the one to send the incompetent/insufficient assassins...but really he just wants to keep them off of HIS end of things...maybe even redirect them to handle another rival or problem, true or false.


Imagine the PC's dismay if they have another thieves' guild lead fall into their laps, go in guns blazing, and find out too late that they just performed a hit on an innocent merchant's league meeting?


Another possibility is that the one who benefitted isn't actually IN the thieves' guild, but has similar interests...a cult of Mammon or the like? That could really drive the PCs nuts if they ever do uncover who's been subtly guiding them to repeatedly sting the guild.

[Psyren]

Point of order, Psyren:

Complete Adventure p102 (Sense Motive to assess opponents).

*snip*

Aren't we operating off hearsay/reports of the party's deeds? Not a 30-foot range, line of sight opposed check.

[GeekGirl]

The PCs are not their only enemies. They also have to worry about town authorities. For that matter the PC might go under the protection of the town guard and be asked to assist in the shutting down of the guilds since they've done such a good job so far. And like the guild the guard also has other foes to worry about so any assistance is helpful. Really the plot writes itself..

It could be as simple as a current lack of man power. If the local authorities are starting to hit the hubs, they may be spread to thin if the 5 assassins couldn't do it. Personally I like messing with my players heads; so I have have the leader skip town for a bit till the heat is off of him, and make him a reoccurring villain, or at least some one who is now attempting to disrupt with all their dealings. Or if the leader was smart, I would have him leave false information, along with a bit of real, to make the players start raiding either rivals guilds or local cops and what not. let other do his dirty work

[Pika...]

Hi again,

Sorry for bringing this thread up, but since in a few hours all the help given here will be made relevant and I still need some advice, I figured it was better to not make another thread but continue this one with all the previous posts.

So anyway, right now my main question is what kind of Knowledge check could a PC use to know about how a Guild/Thieves Guild works? Mainly, I want to make one of those Knowledge Check charts about the guild which gives X level of information based on the roll, and all the levels below it.

Secondly, I described the first pair of thieves from the "Entertainment Branch" as having specially engraved matching rings. I have now come up with the idea that each branch has it's own insignia/carvings on their rings, and a hierarchy represented by the ring's material (is this a good idea, or would it make the theive guild members too obvious?):

Copper Ring:
Lowest level. A "mook". A red-shirt basically.

Silver Ring:
First level "lieutenant". On simpler missions/tasks this individual may lead some mooks in place of the "Cell Boss". Usually 2-3 of these ring holders exist per cell.

Gold Ring:
Highest level within a cell. The "Cell Boss".

Platinum Ring:
The branch's "Middleman's" ring. He is second to only the branch's "Shadow", and is responsible for having the branch's cells execute the Shadow's will.

Mithral Ring:
The branch's highest ranking member, leader, and representative within the thieves' guild council. Known as the branch's "Shadow".


Thoughts?

Ideas on what the Knowledge Check should be for this, and how to structure ?Knowledge Check tree?


Many Pikas in advance!

[ericgrau]

Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm): Really easy questions or the upper limits of common knowledge are DC 10, DC 15 for basic questions, or 20 to 30 for really tough questions. The approriate type of knowledge is Local, since it involves humanoids and their dealings. History has more to do with city history and so on, which might sometimes be related but it's something else and would provide different information.

IMO:
DC 5 (or int DC 5): The city has thieves guilds
DC 10 (or int DC 10): The names of major guilds that operate in a city and very general goals
DC 15: Insert basic information about the guild here. Basically a company profile like you might see if they had a public website... or in reality what's on their police file.
DC 20 to 30: Increasing levels of specific dealings of the guild and its secret past. Put all the juicy stuff here. DC 30 might be something in their past that they wish nobody knew but leaked out in a few uncommon rumors.

More recent information on current activities would probably require gather information to talk to people actively investigating the guild or (un?)lucky commoner witnesses.

Rings are fine, especially if the guild wants to make an example of someone. For some missions they might go ringless, yes, or more likely carry the ring in a pocket. This could be a nice clue when the PCs kill one and search the body. Also saves the PCs bringing the guy to the authorities and basically finding out the same information on a well known crook, which takes more boring game time that way.

[gorfnab]

If you need more inspiration on creating/running a theive's guild check out the book Among Thieves by Douglas Hulick.

[Pika...]

Hey folks,

Thank you for the help so far.

The thieving/pick-pocketing branch idea worked phenomenally. Gotta figure players. A group of assassins tries to off them in their sleep, and it's not personal yet. Two pickpockets take the entire wealth of two PCs, and all session long both of them (and today one of them mentions it and his plans for revenge multiple times) want nothing more than to take down the Thieves' Guild in a blaze. I am so pleased. :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, now I am in need of helping trying to figure out what classes would work well for a Cell of the Entertainment Branch that I want to showcase soon. The cell is called "The Narcotics Masters".

Please note that I run a low-magic setting, so no wizards, sorcerers, or clerics. Adepts allowed, and are somewhat boosted.

Also, any help structuring/classing out the Pickpocketing/Burglery branch would be appreciated.

Here is an updated list of my Thieves' Guild's Branches and Cells and how their hierarchy works:

-The Enforcer Branch
Notes:
*Led by Graakk, a Lv.12 Orc Fighter.
*This branch is in charge of "enforcing" the will of all the council members, offing anyone the council wants dead, shaking up or killing threats to the guild.
*No one in this branch knows of the location of any other branches' cells/hubs.

The Branches Middleman is:
-Gaf, Lv.8 Dwarf Fighter. Chief Officer of the minor/temporary prison in the Merchant District of the City of Serandia.
Notes:
-He occasionally is able to simply release members of the Thieves' Guild that get caught from the prison in the cover of night.
-If he can't simply let them go he might try altering evidence and the criminal's records.
-He also serves the Thieves' Guild by recovering/destroying evidence on the Thieves' Guild, spying on the military of the city to see what they know of the thieves' guild, and running interference if possible.


Cells within this branch:
1. The Drow Sneaks:
Group of 4 Drow assassins (All Lv.2 Rogues) lead by a Drow Lv.3 Rogue "Cell Boss". (Now only the Lv.3 leader and a single Lv.2 remain).

2. The Beatsticks:
Lead by a Lv.6 Orc Fighter "Cell Boss" who leads 10 Lv.1 Orc Warriors, 6 Lv.2 Orc Warriors, 4 Lv. 3 Orc Warriors, 2 Lv.4 Orc Warrior "Lieutenants", and 20 Lv.1 Goblin Warriors.

3. The Dagger Assassins.
Lead by a Lv.5 Halfling Assassin "Cell Boss" who leads two squads of 4 Lv.3 Halfling Rogues and a Lv.4 Halfling "Lieutenant". All specialize in close-quarters flanking/sneak attacking melee. They exclusively use daggers, both in range when they initially surprise their "targets", and in melee combat when they try to stay in flank on their "targets".



-The Gambling Branch
Notes:
*Led by Za Py (Royal Gem in Elven), a wealthy High Elf Merchant (Lv 14 Expert) in the city (Personally runs the largest Jewelers shop in the city).
*His branch is now dead???


-The Entertainment Branch
Notes:
*Led by the most frightening member of the council, Bathamorlen a Glabrezu Demon who somehow managed to remain on Origin after the demonic assault on the Drow race a few hundred years ago.
*This branch deals in every sort of illegal form of entertainment, though mostly of the bloody and darker kind as preferred by it's council leader.

The branches' middleman is:
-Garnno Footwelder, a Lv. 7 Gnome Tinkerer who serves as middleman for the branch, and as the main books keeper for the money flow of the branch.
Notes:
-Garnno is a Rank 5 (Out of 8 Rank Levels) member of the Tinkerer Guild.
-Garnno is obsessed with the Abyss and Demonic entities. He craves to become one, and foolishly believes Bathamorlen's promise to "ascend" him upon his death as long as he dies in Bathamorlen's service. Of course, Bathamorlen neither has the power, or desire to keep this promise.


Cells within this branch:
1. The Fight Club:
Hosts illegal underground fighting matches where people gamble on the winner, and if the loser dies during the fight.
Lead by a Gnoll Lv.4 Fighter "Cell Boss" who leads a Halfling bookie (Lv.2 Expert), and 6 Lv.1 Gnoll Warriors.

2. The Beast Fights:
Hosts illegal underground chicken-fights or dog-fights like battles to the death between monsters/magical beasts/etc which are illegally smuggled into the city by the cell members.
Led by a Half-Human/Half-Elf Lv.6 Ranger "Cell Boss" who leads 2 Lv.4 Ranger "Lieutenants" who each lead 3 Lv.2 Rangers and 6 Lv.1 Rangers. He and his minions personally capture many of the beasts, though often pay for their "combatants" when needed or the desired prey is located too far from the city.

3. The Narcotics Masters:
Distributes any and every form of narcotic plant, animal venom/poison/extract, herb, etc they can get their hands on.
Lead by????

[Coidzor]

A fate worse than death could help recoup the losses the party made them incur. Or a mysterious bidder could have an interest in acquiring slaves matching the PCs description if you wanted a hook for a false BBEG or the BBEG or something like Ineffable Illihtids.

[Pika...]

Oh, and on the drive home I was thinking of the following "clue" the PCs could use to find he middleman for the Entertainment Branch.

Garnno uses a unique system to communicate with his Cell Bosses. Each Cell Boss has a square metal box which have two glass bulbs protruding from their top side. One bulb is made from blue tinted glass, and one is made from red tinted glass. Through the wonders (and let's admit madness) of Gnome Tinkerer technology the bulbs somehow give off a bright glow when triggered by another device in Garnno's possession. From a distance of a few miles (reaching most of the city) Garnno can send coded messages to his Cell Bosses by flickering on and off either or both of the colored bulbs the bosses have in their possessions.

The bosses watch these metal boxes three specific times a day/night in case of a message: The 10th hour, the 15 hour, and the 20th hour of Origin's daily 30 hour rotational cycle. Each boss has hidden somewhere nearby his/her box a matching set of five sheets of parchment with coded explanations as to what a message means. Such messages can be "Pickup a drop from me at X and Y location at Z time", "Deposit latest earnings at the following bank account", or messages such as "A Cell has been compromised. Be on the lookout and cease activities for X weeks".

Each boss has his own unique set of five coded parchments. Each set has it's own unique codes. It is a Decipher Script Check of DC 18 to decipher a set of parchments, and the check can only be tried once per set of parchments acquired.




A fate worse than death could help recoup the losses the party made them incur. Or a mysterious bidder could have an interest in acquiring slaves matching the PCs description if you wanted a hook for a false BBEG or the BBEG or something like Ineffable Illihtids.

Hmm... Sounds interesting. Will think on this.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Secondly, I described the first pair of thieves from the "Entertainment Branch" as having specially engraved matching rings. I have now come up with the idea that each branch has it's own insignia/carvings on their rings, and a hierarchy represented by the ring's material (is this a good idea, or would it make the theive guild members too obvious?):

Copper Ring:
Lowest level. A "mook". A red-shirt basically.

Silver Ring:
First level "lieutenant". On simpler missions/tasks this individual may lead some mooks in place of the "Cell Boss". Usually 2-3 of these ring holders exist per cell.

Gold Ring:
Highest level within a cell. The "Cell Boss".

Platinum Ring:
The branch's "Middleman's" ring. He is second to only the branch's "Shadow", and is responsible for having the branch's cells execute the Shadow's will.

Mithral Ring:
The branch's highest ranking member, leader, and representative within the thieves' guild council. Known as the branch's "Shadow".


Thoughts?

I'm torn here. One the one hand, I feel as if the Leader should have a greater difference in their ring (mithral and platinum look pretty similar), and have a black ring, or something (the 'Shadow').

On the other hand, I like the subtle difference, because on the off chance that the higher leadership gets busted, the authorities would have a hard time figuring out the leader/know which guy to release (if they've been bought).

[Pika...]

That is a very good and interesting point.

Hmm....

I really like the idea of the black rings for the "Shadows" of the branches.

Perhaps use mithral, but use the rules in Races of the Dragon (correct me if it's in a different book) for coloring metals/armors?

[Zubrowka74]

Concerning you paladin problem : You could use politic inside the guild and have a more neutral branch struggle with the Entertainment branch for guild control. Have the branch leader impress the pally by doing a good deed. "Help my side and things will be a bit cleaner." Sure, they might be neutral, or even CG, but it's the right choice given the circumstances.

As for the branches, an Intelligence network with beggar spies and such, or perhaps a maid service that infiltrates the upper crust. They blackmail some evil and pompous noble.

[00dlez]

This may sound like I'm taking jabs at your DMing style, but it is merely how I chose to tone my response to get you thinking.


Why wouldn't the guild kill the level 2 party? It should be easy enough and a good example to all those other would-be do gooders out there looking to combat the guilds.... business practices...

The party bit off more than it could chew and it's time for consequences. It's my opinion that no DM should go out of their way to kill a party, but if a PC gets an audiance with a king, scores a lucky crit to kill him and the party manages to best the guards in the room... you'd pursue them with consequences (... wouldn't you?) so doing so to a lesser but still powerful person would warrent NPC revenge, we are just arguing about the extent.

Personally, I would have the guild send some of its best men after the party, corner them, and beat them around in a toying fashion. 4 8th-level brutes beating them with their bare hands, down to near unconciousness, for example, until the Leiutenant walks in and gives them a monologue about paying for their actions (a thinly veild DM warning, but certainly not an unwarrented in game consequence either) ending with a crossbow to back of the party's head and the simple "Give me one good reason why I shouldn't kill you right now?" question.

Hopefully, the whole ordeal will put the party's ego in check, have a nice in-game response, and maybe some new plot hooks (Do the PC's bargin for their lives? Do they start working for the guild? Do they get run out of town and have a recurring enemy?)

[HunterOfJello]

The lvl 2 PCs are now, in fact, believed to be agents of a separate and far more powerful organization. The separate more powerful organization isn't sure what to think of the PCs and is halfway interested in recruiting the PCs, largely to avoid embarrassment at not being the ones to do such awesome stuff.

After that, throw in some other Paladin order or something who think that the PCs are actually covertly working for them.

Finally, let the PCs go wild and decide how they want to handle things.

[Pika...]

Concerning you paladin problem : You could use politic inside the guild and have a more neutral branch struggle with the Entertainment branch for guild control. Have the branch leader impress the pally by doing a good deed. "Help my side and things will be a bit cleaner." Sure, they might be neutral, or even CG, but it's the right choice given the circumstances.

As for the branches, an Intelligence network with beggar spies and such, or perhaps a maid service that infiltrates the upper crust. They blackmail some evil and pompous noble.

Oh yes, love the idea!

I have an idea for a lovely Elf middleman/middlegirl for the Intelligence Branch who along with her "Shadow" are at odds with Enforcer Branch (or perhaps better the Entertainment Branch?) for something that happened between them years ago. I could see an alley to the PCs being captured and going to be executed, and after having in a previous session shown a good deed as you described offers an alliance/deal to the PCs: Her spies find the location of the missing friend in 30 minutes or less (or the pizzas free!), and they help crumble the opposing branch. So basically she wants the PCs to do all the dirty work, as her Branch has limited combat personal, and she uncovers the opposing branch's Cells for them to clean up.

So, thoughts?




This may sound like I'm taking jabs at your DMing style, but it is merely how I chose to tone my response to get you thinking.


Why wouldn't the guild kill the level 2 party? It should be easy enough and a good example to all those other would-be do gooders out there looking to combat the guilds.... business practices...

The party bit off more than it could chew and it's time for consequences. It's my opinion that no DM should go out of their way to kill a party, but if a PC gets an audiance with a king, scores a lucky crit to kill him and the party manages to best the guards in the room... you'd pursue them with consequences (... wouldn't you?) so doing so to a lesser but still powerful person would warrent NPC revenge, we are just arguing about the extent.

Personally, I would have the guild send some of its best men after the party, corner them, and beat them around in a toying fashion. 4 8th-level brutes beating them with their bare hands, down to near unconciousness, for example, until the Leiutenant walks in and gives them a monologue about paying for their actions (a thinly veild DM warning, but certainly not an unwarrented in game consequence either) ending with a crossbow to back of the party's head and the simple "Give me one good reason why I shouldn't kill you right now?" question.

Hopefully, the whole ordeal will put the party's ego in check, have a nice in-game response, and maybe some new plot hooks (Do the PC's bargin for their lives? Do they start working for the guild? Do they get run out of town and have a recurring enemy?)

Hmm,

As things get more serious I might do this.

[00dlez]

Hmm,

As things get more serious I might do this.

I've not encountered such an issue with players, but just from my behind the screen POV, if this type of action is something you want to limit in the future, then set the precident now, in an in-game fashion. If done right, it should fit right in and the players may not even see it as a DM wrist slap.

As a player, however, I suspect a DM has imposed a similar type of block preemptively, and it worked well. Our party is being pursued by an army across some plains, and it was suggested, half jokingly, to just start a prairie fire to disrupt their advance. About a week later, lo and behold, the party was beating back the flames protecting their caravan. When they reached a settlement, THEY were almost killed as suspects in starting the fire, even though they had nothing to do with it.

[Pika...]

While your idea would have helped me a lot 00dlez if I had considered it as soon as it happened the first session of my campaign, at this point after another two sessions of the PCs getting more involved/interested in dealing with the Thieves' Guild I think I will go with it. I have developed some fluff already (as shown in this thread), and am getting some solid work done with the structure of the guild (which I am actually enjoying quite a bit), so at this point I am thinking the Thieves' Guild will be the opening arch of my campaign. Perhaps the first 1/4 of it to 1/3 even.

I have already even worked out how to connect the PCs to the next arch if they succeed, which should be quite amusing if the players ever realize the reward(s) for their help to the city/kingdom is actually what gets them stuck in their next predicament. :smallbiggrin:

[Templarkommando]

What the thieves guild needs to do is protect themselves. Clearly their own brute force isn't deterring the party, so they need to dig up some dirt on them. So, we know that the party likes to screw with the theives guild. Arrange for some fake documents to fall into the hands of the PCs outlining the plan to kill the party. These documents will name a completely innocent party as the master-mind behind the plan and conveniently give enough details about the patsy that the party can find them. The party moves in and kills the patsy.

Strangely, at the point when the party moves in to kill the patsy, the thieves guild surveillance runs to alert the guard.

"Oh, no! I just saw some armed men enter that house. They looked like they meant to hurt someone!"

Just as the party is exiting the residence of the patsy, the guard arrives having just received a tip that someone broke into the patsy's house. Now not only does the party have the problem of a vendetta against the thieves guild they are now wanted. Not to mention the fact that they are standing outside of a fresh crime scene with bruises and blood and a corpse sitting just inside.

The only hole that I see in this plan is that the documents suggest some kind of evidence, so if the thieves guild can also arrange for the documents to disappear before the party is accosted by the guard.

[Pika...]

LoL. I just wanted to say thanks to all of you. With your various ideas our last gaming session went extremely well. We ended up playing until the next morning. :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, as suggested by Zubrowka74 I had the Information Branch's middleman/middlewoman come in and propose a little "I was never here" alliance. As a starter she gave a "freebee" of telling them where a PC was being held by the Entertainment Branch, which her branch is not very fond of.

I managed to kill a PC (the effective party leader), and was considering having the Thieves' Guild leave things at that with that "example" and a warning to "Leave the Thieves' Guild alone now". Needless to say that did not last, as the very next morning one of the PCs/players decided to mess with yet another branch and REALLY PO'd the guild this time. LoL. My players are suicidal... :smalleek:

Anyway, I also came up with some of the Branches' insignias on their rings:

Enforcement Branch: A warhammer swinging.
Information Branch: An eye.
Gambling Branch: A coin in mid-flip.
Entertainment Branch: A jester's hat.


I could use a few more branch ideas please, and definitely some cell ideas please! :smallsmile:

[Rama]

I like the framing idea. It seems your PCs are pretty bloodthirsty, so if the thieves guild runs a particularly tasty-seeming lure under their noses they will likely run off for bloodthirsty action without stopping to verify the truth of the information.

Most thieves guilds (successful ones anyway) survive off misdirection and anonymity. If they become a big enough annoyance, the local nobility runs a few divisions of soldiers into the sewers and rounds up a bunch of their membership for hanging. An open street war with a bunch of PCs and bodies all over the place definitely is going to attract attention.

Better to let the two natural enemies (PCs + law enforcement) go after each other, leaving the guild to even more profitable business with its newly streamlined operation.

If that doesn't work, as acting head of the thieves guild I would see a couple of potential paths. Note that I'm assuming the direct action path is mostly out as the PCs have at this point defeated some of my better men.

1) Let them think they've won. Carefully leak information that one of my rivals/annoyances/etc is really the head of the thieves guild. Let the PCs commit bloodthirsty mayhem upon his body. Go underground for ~ 6 months to give the PCs time to get bored and leave, then back in business. It's not the ideal response and will cost a fair bit in lost revenues, but I didn't get to be head Thief by taking unnecessary risks.

2) A variant of the above, lure them into a location of my choosing by thinking I'm there...then blow it up. Draws a lot of attention, but if I can make it seem like an accident or at least keep the nobility from looking at me as the culprit (patsy arsonist anyone?) it should be a fairly low-risk attempt on their lives.

3) Bribe corruptible guards to arrest the PCs on a trumped up charge, and a magistrate to railroad them. Maybe prison, maybe exile; just get them out of my hair.

4) Hire a particularly nasty assassin or two from another city. I don't like it for the attention and bodies in the streets reasons, but if I'm desperate I'll do it.

5) Total war. The truly last resort when everything else has failed. Simply inform the PCs if they don't leave me be to run my mostly harmless operation in peace, I will do anything and everything in my power to make them and anyone they know suffer. I'll have their family killed. I'll have their friends killed. I'll have their friends families killed. I'll have their neighbors killed. I'll have their horses butchered in the stables. I'll have every inn they ever stay in burned down. Every meal they eat will be laced with arsenic, every mug of ale with strychnine. It's part bluff, but it might be enough to shock them into some sort of arrangement. Or I get lucky and they die.

[Deophaun]

I figured they were dead meat by going to the higher-level guild member's residence, but oh the joy in my DM heart as my players not only survived, but a greedy PC managed to snatch just the right stack of paperwork, off just the right desk, in just the right room they barged in to to get a list of all the thieves' guild's hubs in that district/section of the city.
And right there is why the theives' guild isn't out to kill them. It's not their fault they took those papers. It's the fault of the person who had them. Those papers should not have existed at all. He broke the #1 rule of Thieves Club: you do not create a paper trail linking every member of Thieves Club.

That doesn't mean the thieves' guild leadership is particularly happy with the PCs, but they've shown skill, bravery, and a good dose of foolishness that potentially makes them excellent for the task of assassinating the person who betrayed them.

[Pika...]

Again, I just wanted to say thank you to the folks who helped in this thread. You all helped to make for a fun campaign arch, and taught me some things which will hopefully come in hand later in my DM career. The arch just ended last night, and we had a blast. :smallbiggrin: