DMM: Quicken or DMM: Persist

[betelgeuce]

Provided I could have 2 extra feats to start with and average progression throughout my character based on an optimized build that I have a clear goal towards, which is better? Quicken or Persist and if I could have both talk about how you would go about doing that and if it would make any sense to do so. Keep in mind you can obtain the extend spell feat from a domain out of "Spell Compendium" so there's one down.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well a Human or Azurin or Strongheart Halfling Planning/Undeath Cloistered Cleric 1 with 2 flaws lets you get:

Planning: Extend Spell
Undeath: Extra Turning
L1: Persistent Spell
Hu: Divine Metamagic, Persistent Spell
Flaw1: Extra Turning
Flaw2: Extra Turning

Trade Turn Undead for Destroy Undead from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, and make sure to get 1 level of Sacred Exorcist as quickly as possible, to get Turn Undead as well as Destroy Undead, and you can persist a whole mess of spells. Cloistered Cleric is just for Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion), and since you will have Full BAB anyway with the right Persisted Spell. Get a Nightstick (Libris Mortis) and a Reliquary Holy Symbol (Magic Item Compendium), to get even more Turn Undeads and Destroy Undeads.

Of course, this is a corner case. You don't have to go this far...

[Jack_Simth]

Provided I could have 2 extra feats to start with and average progression throughout my character based on an optimized build that I have a clear goal towards, which is better? Quicken or Persist and if I could have both talk about how you would go about doing that and if it would make any sense to do so. Keep in mind you can obtain the extend spell feat from a domain out of "Spell Compendium" so there's one down.
Extra Turning from the Undeath domain, Extend Spell from the Planning domain, then be human, Strongheart Halfling, or take a few flaws for Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic(Persistent Spell) to have it at 1st level.

As to which is better? It depends on how often your DM dispels, mostly.
If you are rarely dispelled, then Persistent Spell is better, as it really does last all day.
If you are regularly dispelled, then Quicken Spell is better, as they won't last long anyway.

[Gavinfoxx]

Also, if you are worried about dispels...

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872350/Raising_Caster_Level

Just use as many of those as you can manage. LOTS of the best ways work well with Clerics!

[Elric VIII]

From the other thread:

First of all, it largely depends on your imagined role within the group. What exactly do you plan to do with this character?

DMM: Persist is largely thought of as the best option, but DMM: Quicken can be better depending on your build. Also, it is the Planning domain that grants Extend Spell. It is an okay domain, since it has a few great spells and a few situational/bad spells, but the free feat saves it.

They both give you action advantage, which is the key to winning combats.

DMM: Persist allows you to pre-buff and walk into melee with all of your spells ready to go. This is the more melee (or archery) related option. You completely outclass anything of your level with all the buffs you have available (provided you get a large enough turning pool). Without something like Divine Defiance, which also consumes TU/RU uses, you can be quite suceptible to dispels, even with the ways that divine casters have for increasing CLs. This use of DMM is also considered the cheesiest, if that matters at all.

DMM: Quicken allows you to choose how you take advantage of the action economy on the fly (rather than having to choose buffs beforehand). It also more beneficial to a casting-focused Cleric, as opposed to a Clericzilla. Keep in mind that it uses about half the total TU/RU attemps as DMM: Persist, meaning that you can use the feat roughly twice as much. In my experience, this combination is not even that overpowered, especially if you use it to buff/heal/aid teammates, whereas DMM: Persist risks overshadowing your allies.

My personal choice is DMM: Quicken, but as I said, it largely depends on your role. Also, keep in mind that both Persist and Quicken are useful without DMM. As part of your consideration, think about how you would use each feat without DMM since there's only so many TU/RU attempts to go around.

[eggs]

If you want to make yourself big enough to pretend to be a Fighter, Persist is more efficient.

If you want to use spellcasting for offense or support, Quicken is going to help more (barring consumptive field abuse).

[navar100]

If you know, for absolute certain, that you will and want to cast the same particular spells every time all the time, then DMM Persistent Spell will be fine. It takes a lot of game mechanics resources to pull off well (dedicated feats, Domain choice perhaps, extra emphasis on Charisma, etc.) but you will be rewarded for your efforts.

If you prefer more versatility, DMM Quicken Spell is the better choice. It requires less resource allocation and you can use it for any spell, not just a specific few. You can also afford to prepare a normal Quickened Spell or two as well. High Charisma and Extra Turning still help, of course, but you aren't as desperate for them. An advantage of DMM Quicken over Persistent is that you can Quicken a spell when you need it as you need it. A Persistent Spell takes an effort of dedication to use right then and there. If for whatever reason you don't need to benefit from the spell that game day, you've wasted the effort.

[Cor1]

Yeah. What they said. Versatility vs. Staying Power.

Otherwise, just take the Metamagic feats, not the DMM feats, and rely on Heroism to give them temporarily as needed.

[Garwain]

I use DMM Quicken on my current Cleric, and casting 2 spells in 1 round is really sweet...

On lower levels, you can persist 2 spells, maybe 3 if you push it. Those spells would be buff spells like bless or divine favor or lesser vigor or spiritual weapon. You see... you have some bonu on attack or healing some damage, you have also only some impact. With Quicken, you cause fear and command the same round, disabling 2 foes at once. Now that's an impact.

Granted, at higher levels, persisting divine power and such make it worth a lot more.

So yes, quicken has more versatility, but IMO also more power at lower levels. At higher levels, you loose power, but keep the versatility.

[betelgeuce]

All sounds good. I think I may attempt at both but I think I'll stick with my original persist notion. Although there are always the heathenish words "Battle Blessing", but I digress.