A dubious merchant and a ring of wishes.

[Hyde]

I have an NPC monster that acts as a merchant of unusual goods- it barters in things like memories, knowledge, items of myth... basically stuff you couldn't find normal rules for.

which is partly irrelevant to my question. A wizard wants to sell his voice to the creature in exchange for a ring of wishes and a bonus feat (silent spell). It seems to me that one must be able to verbally articulate the wishes in order to use the ring. I haven't seen it explicitly stated as rules text, but the verbal component of the spell and nearly all of the flavor text suggests such.

And while he might be able to metamagic that complication away if he were physically casting the spell, one cannot metamagic spells cast from items.

So he's basically asking for an item he will be immediately unable to use, right?

Mostly I'm looking to make sure this line of reasoning is valid from ye board members more well-versed in the rules than I.


EDIT: I'm probably going to give him a ring of three wishes, and nothing else. The idea being that the first wish will go to getting his voice back- assuming the guy making the wish on his behalf doesn't botch it. The second wish will go to actually regaining the use of his voice (as the wording of the first would likely just cause the whatever containing it to appear). and the third wish would be to not die when the monster comes calling about his "no refunds" policy.

[Darrin]

It seems to me that one must be able to verbally articulate the wishes in order to use the ring. I haven't seen it explicitly stated as rules text, but the verbal component of the spell and nearly all of the flavor text suggests such.


The default to activate a ring is usually a standard action command word. However, the rules say "Some rings have exceptional activation methods", and this looks like one of those exceptions.

So if we're activating a spell-like effect, we look at the spell description, which lists a Verbal component. But also this: "By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you."

There are a few ways to get around the Verbal component, such as Nonverbal Spell, Surrogate Spellcasting, Natural Spell, Silent Spell, whispercast, etc. None of those can really be applied to a spell being activated from an item, though. That can be handwaved if you allow the ring to telepathically communicate with the owner, as many magic items do (or vice versa, if the wizard can establish a telepathic link with the ring).

After that, the wizard has to get creative:

sign language (which isn't "speaking aloud", but the ring might have the arcane equivalent of Section 504 compliance with the A.D.A.)

Morse code or a similar equivalent, sounded out via tongue-clicks or cheek-pops (which do not involve vocal chords but could still be considered "speaking aloud").

There's no language requirement so presumably the ring understands any and all languages. So it's also possible that the wizard could create his own language and address the ring that way. (Although in that case I'd be sorely tempted to have the ring do something unexpected and then inform the wizard petulantly that he failed to conjugate the verb correctly.)

[Hyde]

you've answered my question expertly, though you misunderstand my intent.

I am entirely okay giving the guy an item he can't use because he didn't think things through.:belkar:

thanks for the help.

[Acanous]

guy isn't asking for a ring which lets him cast Wish nonverbally in particular, is he?
If he is, and the merchant has one, let that work. If he's just offering Voice->Ring of 3 wishes, standard model.. Yeah, it doesn't actually work if he can't speak.

He could give it to another party member, though.

[ahenobarbi]

Uch. The player is nerfing the character significantly. I wouldn't screw it on top of that (so I'd give the character a ring that would work properly).

[Togo]

Have the merchant make the wishes. He has the wizard's voice, right?

[That_guy_there]

you've answered my question expertly, though you misunderstand my intent.

I am entirely okay giving the guy an item he can't use because he didn't think things through.:belkar:

thanks for the help.

Yes. It is always okay to give a guy an item he asked for but can't use because he didn't think it through. :smallbiggrin:
And if anyone says otherwise they be lyin'! :smallyuk:

[Karoht]

guy isn't asking for a ring which lets him cast Wish nonverbally in particular, is he?
If he is, and the merchant has one, let that work. If he's just offering Voice->Ring of 3 wishes, standard model.. Yeah, it doesn't actually work if he can't speak.

He could give it to another party member, though.

The crafter could attune the ring to [alignment] wizards
Just to make the wizard jump through more hoops.

Of course, the wizard does have ways to get his voice back, I'm certain of it.

Could he use Ghost Sound to verbalize his wish? It can effectively speak for him. This might be his plan already in fact.

[Hyde]

The crafter could attune the ring to [alignment] wizards
Just to make the wizard jump through more hoops.

Of course, the wizard does have ways to get his voice back, I'm certain of it.

Could he use Ghost Sound to verbalize his wish? It can effectively speak for him. This might be his plan already in fact.

I wish I could believe he would think of that.

[Hyde]

The crafter could attune the ring to [alignment] wizards
Just to make the wizard jump through more hoops.

Of course, the wizard does have ways to get his voice back, I'm certain of it.

Could he use Ghost Sound to verbalize his wish? It can effectively speak for him. This might be his plan already in fact.

If ghost sound could be used that way, then by extension couldn't anyone vocalize a wish near a ring of wishes, regardless of who is wearing it?

[Augmental]

Uch. The player is nerfing the character significantly. I wouldn't screw it on top of that (so I'd give the character a ring that would work properly).

Well, the player's also getting the Silent Spell metamagic for free along with the Ring of Three Wishes. So he can still cast spells.

[Othesemo]

Well, the player's also getting the Silent Spell metamagic for free along with the Ring of Three Wishes. So he can still cast spells.

At +1 spell level. On just about every spell.

That's a pretty horrible nerf.

[Hyde]

At +1 spell level. On just about every spell.

That's a pretty horrible nerf.

I've been considering throwing in a few "perfect metamagic" feats as well, but it's still pretty nerfy.

[Zale]

First Wish: The Merchant's Head on a Silver Platter. :smallsmile:

[kabreras]

So as i can read it your wizard is asking for silent spell +2 wishs for free.
Considering that the 1st wish will be that he get his voice back (he dont even have to do it himself but can just ask someone else to wish it for him anyway)

If you say yes you are screwed.

I would give him a ring of wishs with just 1 wish in it (he didnt asked for a brand new one) so he just get is voice and the metamagic for getting with a so good story to get free stuff.

[ahenobarbi]

So as i can read it your wizard is asking for silent spell +2 wishs for free.
Considering that the 1st wish will be that he get his voice back (he dont even have to do it himself but can just ask someone else to wish it for him anyway)

And than the character has to deal with the angry NPC who just lost the voice...

[kitcik]

What is this, the Ariel campaign setting?

[Reluctance]

I wouldn't, for one simple reason. Mute is the classic case of a flaw that's either crippling to the player, or more likely, that everybody handwaves for ease of play. It's very cool thematically, but won't work out that way at the table.

[Flickerdart]

Make the ring an intelligent item that can communicate telepathically with the wizard. If you make the wish a dedicated power, the item can refuse to use it unless the wizard is following the item's purpose - and even then, since the item is the one casting it, any lawyering can be summarily dismissed. For bonus fun, give the item the ability to speak with the character's voice, so that it can help the wizard until the time comes to completely misrepresent what he wants to say in order to further its cause.

A useful item that secretly works against the PCs is much more fun that an item they merely can't use.

[prufock]

I have an NPC monster that acts as a merchant of unusual goods- it barters in things like memories, knowledge, items of myth... basically stuff you couldn't find normal rules for.

which is partly irrelevant to my question. A wizard wants to sell his voice to the creature in exchange for a ring of wishes and a bonus feat (silent spell). It seems to me that one must be able to verbally articulate the wishes in order to use the ring. I haven't seen it explicitly stated as rules text, but the verbal component of the spell and nearly all of the flavor text suggests such.

And while he might be able to metamagic that complication away if he were physically casting the spell, one cannot metamagic spells cast from items.

So he's basically asking for an item he will be immediately unable to use, right?

Mostly I'm looking to make sure this line of reasoning is valid from ye board members more well-versed in the rules than I.

He can get someone else to speak the wishes on his behalf, from what he writes down. If he has a talking familiar, he's golden. Wish #1 will likely be to be able to speak.

[Spuddles]

Make the ring an intelligent item that can communicate telepathically with the wizard. If you make the wish a dedicated power, the item can refuse to use it unless the wizard is following the item's purpose - and even then, since the item is the one casting it, any lawyering can be summarily dismissed. For bonus fun, give the item the ability to speak with the character's voice, so that it can help the wizard until the time comes to completely misrepresent what he wants to say in order to further its cause.

A useful item that secretly works against the PCs is much more fun that an item they merely can't use.

I was thinking something similar, like a demon bound to the ring, and to make a wish, you have to write your wish down on a piece of paper and feed it to the ring.

[kitcik]

Make the ring an intelligent item that can communicate telepathically with the wizard. If you make the wish a dedicated power, the item can refuse to use it unless the wizard is following the item's purpose - and even then, since the item is the one casting it, any lawyering can be summarily dismissed. For bonus fun, give the item the ability to speak with the character's voice, so that it can help the wizard until the time comes to completely misrepresent what he wants to say in order to further its cause.

A useful item that secretly works against the PCs is much more fun that an item they merely can't use.

I like this.

As far as the first wish regaining speech - that wish better be worded VERY carefully...

[That_guy_there]

If ghost sound could be used that way, then by extension couldn't anyone vocalize a wish near a ring of wishes, regardless of who is wearing it?

Rings like all Magic items can only be activated by the person weilding/ wearing it... with a few rare exceptions.

Here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#commandWord