So Sorcerers can abuse metamagic too

[lunar2]

i just got Dragon Magazine Compendium. in it, i noticed the bloodline feats. you take one of these feats, get 1 bonus spell known per spell level, and lose the ability to cast certain spells. one of those bloodlines is necromantic bloodline, which prohibits you from casting conjuration (healing) spells. well, i'm thinking this is a bit OP, considering that sorcerers won't be casting many healing spells anyway, but it's not that big of a deal. but then i noticed another feat: kin mastery. this feat allows you to either turn or rebuke (chosen when you take the feat) the kind of creature that is related to your bloodline feat as a cleric of 1/2 your level, 1 time per day.

so, now the sorcerer can turn or rebuke undead, and qualifies for DMM. a few nightsticks later, and you now have another 'zilla build running around. what's even better is that these feats can be taken by any spontaneous arcane spellcaster, not just sorcerers. want your warmage to maximize every spell he throws? go ahead. want your beguiler to extend all their charms? they can. the list goes on and on.

[metabolicjosh]

NO NO NO DMM only works on Divine source Spells!
But technically sorcerers can learn any spell by study so study a divine version of the many buff spells.

[VGLordR2]

When you take this feat, choose a metamagic feat that you have. This feat applies only to that metamagic feat. As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to divine spells that you know. You must spend one turn or rebuke attempt, plus an additional attempt for each level increase in the metamagic feat you're using. For example, Jozan the cleric could sacrifi ce three turn attempts to empower a holy smite he's casting. Because you're using positive or negative energy to augment your spells, the spell slot for the spell doesn't change.

Emphasis mine.

DMM only applies to divine spells.

[lunar2]

NO NO NO DMM only works on Divine source Spells!
But technically sorcerers can learn any spell by study so study a divine version of the many buff spells.

that doesn't work, because spells are neither arcane or divine. they only gain the arcane or divine descriptor based on who casts them. a CLW cast by a bard, for example, is an arcane spell. even if a sorcerer gains access to cleric only spells through research, he casts them as arcane spells because he is an arcane spellcaster. only the prestige classes from complete divine break this rule, AFAIK. that book specifically states that if an arcane caster gets a domain from a prestige class, he casts those spells as divine spells if they aren't on his class list.

[hushblade]

Isn't there a feat "southern mage" or "alternate spell source" that would cover this? not quite sure.

[The Random NPC]

If I remember correctly, spells are divine or arcane, with many spells existing as both. Also Dragon Magazine is frequently a source of not good.

[lunar2]

it still amounts to the same thing. the sorcerer is an arcane spellcaster. every spell it casts through normal means (without ACFs, PRCs, or feats) is an arcane spell. arcane and divine reference how the spell is prepared and cast, not what the spell does.

[Tar Palantir]

Isn't there a feat "southern mage" or "alternate spell source" that would cover this? not quite sure.

Southern Magician does it, allowing an arcane caster to have their spells count as either divine or arcane.

[legomaster00156]

Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.
So, yeah, this doesn't work without other feats (like Southern Magician) helping out.

[eggs]

Illumians can do DMM without worrying about Divine tags.

But with 1 use per day, a Sorcerer's still going to be at Sacred-Exorcist-qualifying levels before being able to afford enough Turn attempts.

[lunar2]

nightsticks, extra turning, etc. the sorcerer gets most of the ways to get more turn attempts that a cleric would use.

[Tyndmyr]

i just got Dragon Magazine Compendium. in it, i noticed the bloodline feats. you take one of these feats, get 1 bonus spell known per spell level, and lose the ability to cast certain spells. one of those bloodlines is necromantic bloodline, which prohibits you from casting conjuration (healing) spells. well, i'm thinking this is a bit OP, considering that sorcerers won't be casting many healing spells anyway, but it's not that big of a deal. but then i noticed another feat: kin mastery. this feat allows you to either turn or rebuke (chosen when you take the feat) the kind of creature that is related to your bloodline feat as a cleric of 1/2 your level, 1 time per day.

so, now the sorcerer can turn or rebuke undead, and qualifies for DMM. a few nightsticks later, and you now have another 'zilla build running around. what's even better is that these feats can be taken by any spontaneous arcane spellcaster, not just sorcerers. want your warmage to maximize every spell he throws? go ahead. want your beguiler to extend all their charms? they can. the list goes on and on.

He also needs a touch of divine casting(probably via Ur-priest), to qualify for alternate source spell, which thus allows him to cast his spells as divine.

So, it can be made to work, but it's a larger combo.

[eggs]

nightsticks, extra turning, etc. the sorcerer gets most of the ways to get more turn attempts that a cleric would use.
Say a Human Sorcerer picks up a bloodline and Kin Mastery at level 1. That's one turn attempt per day. Basically useless on its own.
At level 3, the Sorcerer picks up Extend. Not a bad feat.
At level 6, the Sorcerer picks up Persist. Useless for the time being.
At level 9, the Sorcerer picks up Divine Metamagic. Useless at the moment.
At level 12, the Sorcerer gets alternative spell source or Southern Magician and things kind of come together. The level 12 Sorcerer invests 15k gp and ends up in the same place as a level 1 Planning/Undeath Cleric, turning-wise.

Then compare to the Sacred Exorcist or Incantatrix, who can pull this sort of thing off earlier, without trying to survive on a pile of useless feats. Or the Spelldancer, whose useless feat investments are at least relevant, and whose free metamagic is completely without a cap.

The Kin Mastery (Undead) is clever, but this isn't practical.