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View Full Version : What would Devil's want?



Hazzardevil
2012-07-16, 04:11 PM
I was imagining an idea for a kingdom a while ago where Devil's were often hired to do paperwork or one-off contracts like to bring in people who have broken laws.
But that made me wonder, what could you give to Devils to make them work for you? And just having mages bind the Devils is out of the question because it would happen often enough that the Princes would get involved.

So what could you pay the Devil's in?

Omniplex
2012-07-16, 04:29 PM
Souls.

Other than souls? Cold Iron might be useful in the blood war. Any other resource that Hell would be lacking in might be valuable to them. A kingdom, I suppose, they might do it in exchange for carrying out wars and such to further the goals of the devils, or actions which might create an atmosphere which promotes lawful evil alignment and actions.

Kelb_Panthera
2012-07-16, 05:31 PM
There's always good old-fashioned cash.

Be aware that they'll use whatever you give them to subvert your kingdom to their own ends: making your society predominantly LE and damning the souls of your citizenry.

Driderman
2012-07-16, 05:35 PM
The souls of criminals, the Blood War always need more lemures after all...

Ravens_cry
2012-07-16, 05:44 PM
The souls of criminals, the Blood War always need more lemures after all...
Even better if you can arrange an innocent soul.
It can backfire, but nothing has value like something you are not supposed to have.

Slipperychicken
2012-07-16, 06:00 PM
Inevitables (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm) fit this purpose much better. And they work for free. Since they're all lawful and stuff, you could just pay them with cash, information, and by respecting the "universal laws".


Besides, having giant soulless robots to hunt people down is a lot scarier (and more awesome) than red guys with horns.

Lord Tyger
2012-07-16, 06:19 PM
YMMV- giant robots don't really do much for me.

Anyways, regarding the OP, this is basically Cheliax in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting. There, the Princes of Hell don't interfere with the constant binding because Cheliax's Church of Asmodeus is actively furthering the infernal agenda.

SilverClawShift
2012-07-16, 06:50 PM
plotdeviceanium

When it comes down to it, Devils want souls. They want souls because it increases their army count, which helps them in their fight in the blood war.

You knew that already.

But your LE kingdom can't just trade away souls willy nilly. The exchange rate is ridiculous. Bottom rung souls are cheap as dirt in hell, but on the prime? A soul is the most expensive thing a person has, assuming they're still sucking air and their soul still belongs to them.
And what's more, you can't sell a soul without individual consent. And who is going to give away their single most valuable asset without serious compensation? You wouldn't trade your house for a nice car. You wouldn't trade your car for a fine meal. And unless you're an idiot, you won't trade your soul for anything less than a lifetime of incredible luxury (and even then, you only get to make that trade because you're getting the short end of the stick. No devil is giving you 80 years of wealth and health because they like you. They're doing it cause your soul is still worth more than that.)

But you need to make a deal with the devils? What's worth it to them? What's worth their time, attention, magic, and effort?

If your kindgom is using devils as legal aides, your kingdom has something awesome. At least as far as the infernal are concerned. Something that'll catch their attention even though it's not another soul. It might be a long con. They might be playing your kingdom until they can suck the whole stupid city down into their depths and turn into a new battalion.
The only real alternative is something that helps them in the blood war. Lawfully aligned minerals that you legally own the right to. A metal that leaked out of Mechanus and into your soil eons ago, and now sits almost unnoticed in your hills. An element so clockwork in it's resonance that even showing a coin of the stuff to a demon will make it gag for air.
You're not selling your soul, right? It's not a DIVINITY issue. It's simple capitalism. You're just trading this awesome new element. To devils. For personal gain.

Nothing evil about that.

Oracle_Hunter
2012-07-16, 06:53 PM
Depends on the system you're using :smalltongue:

Example
In my 4e homebrew setting I've decided that Divine beings are empowered by souls (not a novel idea, but a solid one) and that after the Archdevils betrayed their former patron God and split up his essence amongst them they found themselves crippled by the sanctions imposed on them by their former patron's Domain and the other Gods. Since they're not capable of getting worshipers (due to the World Serpent banishing the Gods from the World) they found a way to entice mortals with corrupted Blood Rituals that diverted some of the sacrifice's soul into Hell for their use.

Once they got more powerful they developed Rituals that would enable lesser Immortals (i.e. Devils) to be summoned into the World. These Rituals would bind the Devils to the service of the summoner but were much less "efficient" requiring multiple sacrifices to power the Ritual when only one was really necessary. As a result the Devils were able to operate "wholesale" and corrupted a major Human kingdom. The Archdevils' masterstroke was in signing contracts with 13 Aristocrats that imbued them and their lines with Infernal power. Ultimately this contract permitted the Archdevils to open a semi-permanent Gate into the mortal World and transform the heart of the Human nation into Hell on Earth.
So yeah. Devils take whatever you say is valuable to them. It can be souls, soulstuff, gold, iron, or even the tears of innocents. Just make up a reason for them to want them and make it something they can't get easily any other way.

Kelb_Panthera
2012-07-16, 07:19 PM
The devils you have for positions amongst your nation's law-makers will probably take whatever you offer after some token haggling. They'd probably volunteer, if that weren't so suspicious. You're giving them a position with incredible potential to screw your people into damnation.

LibraryOgre
2012-07-16, 10:33 PM
Magic.

If they're unable to get souls (which would generally be a bad exchange for the empire, unless they can toss them slave or POW souls), then the next valuable thing would be magic. Maybe they have a magic item that will suck up spells cast into it, to use for their own purposes. Or a few wizards churning out scrolls and wands can make things worthwhile for them. But aside from souls, look to magic.

Grail
2012-07-16, 10:41 PM
Grandma Tweetum's Home Styled Caramel Fudge, now with sprinkles.

QuidEst
2012-07-16, 10:51 PM
Hmm…

Well, we know what they want. Souls. But what do they hate? Celestials, good in general, and other such things. Let's say you have a kingdom that sold out- they agree to persecute good clerics and to wage a war on the neighboring good-aligned kingdom. In return, the devils provide assistance in the war and a large volume of simple, pre-signed contracts for normal services, issued to the kingdom. These are then sold to businesses, who know that the contracts will be honored and have already been carefully combed for loopholes. (In addition, even if a loophole exists, exploiting it at anything less than the most opportune moment means that it will be closed from then on, since all similar contracts use similar wording and would be updated.) The kingdom runs efficiently, the souls of the bureaucrats at least have already been nicely moved over to LE, and the demons are probably allowed to set up small contract shops in certain districts where the desperate really can go and sell their souls.

A note on people selling their souls for a life of luxury- these people are probably whisked away to start a new life elsewhere (where people don't know they were a beggar). Also, living near a hundred other beggars who did the same thing would cheapen the experience altogether.

Contract shops would also provide rewards for turning in worshipers of good deities, allowing for smaller contracts with no souls involved. Nothing like a little greed to motivate people to hunt down the opposition- and put themselves in LE territory for a much lower price.

Suggested standard contracts:
-General services (detailed in contract) of a minor devil for a year and a day. Said devil is expressly prohibited from signing any further contracts, but may refer interested parties to its superiors.
-Apprehension of one named criminal within city limits. These would be a little more limited, and mostly reserved for emergencies by the City Watch. Major businesses may purchase one or two as a threat to intruders.
-Very limited runs on wider-range apprehension of criminals might be available.
-Legal services in court
-Safeguarding of valuables

Minor standard contracts:
-Third party contract arbitration
-Proofreading
-Temporary scribing services

kieza
2012-07-16, 11:22 PM
Well, the issue with devils taking an unwilling soul is partly reliant on their lawfulness: they need to make a deal for the soul for it to be "legitimate." Whereas a legitimate authority could remove a soul by force without anyone on the supernatural side of the street kicking up a fuss. So, maybe they have an arrangement with the devils that goes something like this: if a devil brings in a wanted criminal for trial, and he's found guilty, the authorities will strip out his soul when he's executed, and the devils will accept that in lieu of the usual bounty. It's nice and legal, and it has the side effect of opening up all sorts of opportunities for the devils on the side: bribe an official to hang an innocent man for his soul, thereby getting the official's soul too when he dies.

Grail
2012-07-16, 11:26 PM
Devils are immortal, their plans are long and exact and can take a long, long time to come to fruition. Perhaps therefore they are doing it to slowly corrupt an entire people. Make them do used to working with and reliant upon the devils, that the kingdom becomes LE without even realising its happened.

TheOOB
2012-07-17, 12:09 AM
Making deals with devils for work sounds like a terrible idea btw.

Zale
2012-07-17, 12:17 AM
Your Immortal SOUL! Mwhahahahahahah!


Of course, you'd probably like to keep that.

A cult of people willing to devote their souls to your kingdom could give you a nice way of making deals. All it takes is a little brainwashing while they're young.

Cold Iron would be useful, for weaponry against the Demons.

And don't underestimate the value of a foot-hold in the Material Plane. A promise to summon Devils and give some freedom to pursue some of their own plans could be valuable.

Kelb_Panthera
2012-07-17, 12:46 AM
Two things to remember about devils:

1) They're smarter than you, they will outlive you by eons, and they're already working toward subverting your kingdom to make a mini-hell/ LE soul-farm.

2) You'll never get a devil to give you anything that's worth one cp more than your soul is worth, and they've already appraised it. The bad news: your soul ain't worth all that much.

NichG
2012-07-17, 01:07 AM
Access to the Prime. The fluff for outsiders (though its not respected by their mechanics) is that they can't get to the Prime unless asked, summoned, etc. What if its a two-fer - the devil agrees to serve as scribe six days of the week, but the seventh day of the week is his 'off' day where he can cause mischief or advance his own plans on the prime, with the condition that it must be done outside the borders of the kingdom.

Korivan
2012-07-17, 02:53 AM
Water. Its hot down there.

Unless they live in that one plane that's full of ice. Then i'd barter some party cups and jack daniels.

On a serious note, as mentioned before...souls. Perhaps favors, magical items, classical greed stuff. Oooo, how about real estate. What devil wouldn't want a nice cottage overlooking a rich bountiful kingdom they're planning to subvert.

faustin
2012-07-17, 07:00 AM
Two things to remember about devils:

1) They're smarter than you, they will outlive you by eons, and they're already working toward subverting your kingdom to make a mini-hell/ LE soul-farm.

2) You'll never get a devil to give you anything that's worth one cp more than your soul is worth, and they've already appraised it. The bad news: your soul ain't worth all that much.

Pretty much like this. Except that, as professional immortal schemers, their main interest could not be your punny kingdom, but the destiny of one or two apparently not-so interesting, regular guys who are mean to to be the very beggining of a very long term Xanatos Gambit.

Oracle_Hunter
2012-07-17, 09:14 AM
Access to the Prime. The fluff for outsiders (though its not respected by their mechanics) is that they can't get to the Prime unless asked, summoned, etc. What if its a two-fer - the devil agrees to serve as scribe six days of the week, but the seventh day of the week is his 'off' day where he can cause mischief or advance his own plans on the prime, with the condition that it must be done outside the borders of the kingdom.
OK, I really like the concept of "weekend hell-raisers" :smallbiggrin:

Heck, make it so that they demand certain holidays when all Devils are "off the clock" and those days become feared by the Infernal Kingdom's neighbors :smallamused:

Kelb_Panthera
2012-07-17, 11:19 AM
Pretty much like this. Except that, as professional immortal schemers, their main interest could not be your punny kingdom, but the destiny of one or two apparently not-so interesting, regular guys who are mean to to be the very beggining of a very long term Xanatos Gambit.

Given the fluff in FC2, which is the official fluff, the devils definitely want your puny nation/kingdom/ city-state/town; because if they can turn your society LE the devils in charge get most of the souls raised in that society with minimal effort.

Thus mini-hell on earth = soul farm.

zorenathres
2012-07-17, 11:30 AM
reading this reminds me of some old MTG homebrew spells i found... (looking through documents...)

i was laughing pretty hard when i first found this, i am sorry since i cant remember who created this originally. but it would kinda fit with the OP.

Demonic Attorney
Conjuration [Evil]
Level: Clr 5, Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Duration: 1 hour/level

This spell summons a demonic or infernal, your choice, creature who aids you in pleading your case to a third party. The creature has +30 on diplomacy and bluff checks and will speak on your behalf in order to gain the most beneficial end for you. Unlike most demonic or infernal creatures, the attorney will not attempt to deceive you, only others if it would serve your interests. Creatures with the good subtype cannot see or hear the attorney, and the attorney cannot harm creatures or be harmed. You may voluntarily reduce the duration of this spell to reduce the material component cost.
Material Component: 10,000 gold, plus 1,000 per hour of duration. This may be substituted with gems or trade goods of equivalent worth.

Reluctance
2012-07-17, 11:33 AM
As Lawful outsiders, they want good grammar.


The devils you have for positions amongst your nation's law-makers will probably take whatever you offer after some token haggling. They'd probably volunteer, if that weren't so suspicious. You're giving them a position with incredible potential to screw your people into damnation.

Lots of this. Their best deal will involve minor magic items for minor demons. They get stuff they can use right now in the blood war, and the chance to influence countless future souls into filling their ranks.

Or just go with the binding. What prince wouldn't want agents not only active on the material plane, but in positions of influence? If nobody higher up on the food chain intervenes, the town and its mages will keep on summoning.

LibraryOgre
2012-07-17, 07:56 PM
Access to the Prime. The fluff for outsiders (though its not respected by their mechanics) is that they can't get to the Prime unless asked, summoned, etc. What if its a two-fer - the devil agrees to serve as scribe six days of the week, but the seventh day of the week is his 'off' day where he can cause mischief or advance his own plans on the prime, with the condition that it must be done outside the borders of the kingdom.

Oooh, I like this one. It's got great "hell on Earth" potential, and adventure fodder for surrounding kingdoms, while combining a bit of NIMBYism.

Megaduck
2012-07-18, 01:07 AM
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say souls.

Not just one soul though, they want the souls of everyone on the entire planet. To do this they need leverage, turn enough people LE so that the culture turns LE and then people start corrupting themselves. Then that kingdom turns the kingdom next to it LE and so on until the entire planet is LE and becoming a soul farm for foot soldiers in the blood war.

It's also important to note that Devil deals are never simple or straight forward. A devil will never say, I'll trade you a soul for 80 years of riches and happiness. They're more like drug dealers, start small to get the mark hooked and then make them pay and pay and pay. They'll try to trade a low level magic item or service for something that will get them the soul anyway.

As an example look a Ursula from The Little Mermaid. (Totally a LE Villain) She offers Ariel what looks like a simple trade, your voice for legs. In the end it turns out what the really traded was legs for domination of the entire ocean.

A devil might make trades just to work it's way up to getting the crown prince's hand in the honey pot for example.

Parra
2012-07-18, 05:09 AM
I would have them work good old fashioned Gold. You know where you stand when you deal in Gold.
Gold that they secretly care nothing about because it is just to openly show that they are not trying to steal your soul, because everyone knows Devils steal your soul and these Devils are out to prove them wrong.

In the mean time, they are subverting and manipulating your Kingdom from the inside, becoming bureaucrats, influencing & enforcing laws, whispering in the ears of important nobles/kings/heroes and creating a twisted convoluted systems of governing to that will ultimately suit their End Game. And hey if a few malcontents happen to go missing then all the better

Vknight
2012-07-18, 06:12 AM
Soldiers
Think about it...
The Devils give one person the power to animate undead and someone else the ability to craft golems.
Now you have your army pledge allegiance to the Devil's
So you have a force which when the die become undead to serve the army and there souls become devils.
You direct your army towards a force the devils want destroyed and they also supply you some of those newly formed Devils
The Devils get a two-fer, Souls from there allies, and souls from enemies sacrifice in blood for there name. They help the army with Devils and onyx for undead
Seem's a great deal cause if you die you get reborn
And continue to fight for your nation...
Who say's you'll care or if your personality survives becoming a devil

With this the Devils reduce enemy numbers, increase there own and build a army and it costs them what?
5000To open the mine, 25000to start the Golem making, and 2000or so every week to keep things going.
In 1month that costs 38,000gp
The Devils gain an army in souls(Lets say 1000is the entire army)
-20% of the soldiers are lost
So
800Normal Soldiers
200Skeletons
20Flesh Golems
and
5-15Devils

That lets the Devils keep 185-195Souls for making of Devils.
And that is not including those forced to make pacts through charms etc

QuidEst
2012-07-18, 08:37 AM
The Devils get a two-fer, Souls from there allies, and souls from enemies sacrifice in blood for there name.

Whoah… hang on there! They get a lot of the soldiers, yes, but that's because
they're soldiers (lawful) and committing atrocities (evil). They don't get the enemy souls unless those are LE.


Seem's a great deal cause if you die you get reborn
And continue to fight for your nation...
Who say's you'll care or if your personality survives becoming a devil

As I understand it, getting a soul turned into a devil takes a really long time. You don't just pop back over with horns on.



And that is not including those forced to make pacts through charms etc
Pretty sure that pacts that are magically coerced are null and void. Otherwise they could make anybody sign anything with a high DC Dominate spell.

Prime32
2012-07-18, 09:40 PM
Pretty sure that pacts that are magically coerced are null and void. Otherwise they could make anybody sign anything with a high DC Dominate spell.They can, but if someone files an appeal then they're practically guaranteed to lose. Better for the devils to lie and tell everyone in the kingdom that their souls will go to Hell when they die, so that people will sign their souls over to specific devils without a second thought.

Erik Vale
2012-07-18, 09:57 PM
Know what. I think I'm going to have a kingdom in my world do this with the ideas from this thread. It will make a good source for adventure, and help with the general society is about to go into world war feel I'm going for.

However heres a question, why wouldn't they just higher out to lawful angels? Why not ask them first?

Kelb_Panthera
2012-07-18, 10:05 PM
They can, but if someone files an appeal then they're practically guaranteed to lose. Better for the devils to lie and tell everyone in the kingdom that their souls will go to Hell when they die, so that people will sign their souls over to specific devils without a second thought.

No, they most assuredly cannot. The pact primeval states that a devil cannot coerce a signature on a faustian pact in any way (FC2.) If they do and the signatory appeals they autowin. Of course they don't, generally, hear appeals on faustian pacts until your dead. At that point the fact that the pact is void is irrelevant if you earned your damnation anyway.

Callos_DeTerran
2012-07-18, 11:39 PM
No, they most assuredly cannot. The pact primeval states that a devil cannot coerce a signature on a faustian pact in any way (FC2.) If they do and the signatory appeals they autowin. Of course they don't, generally, hear appeals on faustian pacts until your dead. At that point the fact that the pact is void is irrelevant if you earned your damnation anyway.

This is assuming the Pact Primeval is real. You gotta love a book that says at the very beginning that all of it's contents could very well just be devil propaganda spread to deceive and manipulate their enemies and allies. :smallbiggrin:

And coercion is a...misleading term. They can't magically compel you to sign a faustian pact, or physically force you to sign your name...but they can sure as hell manipulate, deceive, and trick you into signing one and many people would describe that as 'coercion'. Course, as you pointed out, if you think you're soul is damned already then why hold back on the evilness? Could end up damned anyway.

As for what they want...it's been covered. They want souls, and they aren't picky about who's soul. Barring that, they'll take gold, magical items, etc (cause those can be used to get souls/fund the Bloodwar), favors, or changes in your society's policies and practices to make it a more LE one...and lets face it, if you're using devils as bureaucrats then you're probably already well on your way to being a LE society anyway.

Spamotron
2012-07-18, 11:59 PM
The Devil's also want this Kingdom to be successful as possible. Humans are natural born copycats throughout history the wealthiest and most successful countries have their customs and practices borrowed by others in an attempt to get a piece of that success for themselves.

This is even better than if their sponsored kingdom converts others through conquest. Because in that instance the other kingdoms can levy assistance from good outsiders to defend against external aggression. If everyone converts to Devil Bureaucracy voluntarily in search of economic competitive advantage there is absolutely nothing the Angels and Archons can do about it.

Kelb_Panthera
2012-07-19, 01:04 AM
This is assuming the Pact Primeval is real. You gotta love a book that says at the very beginning that all of it's contents could very well just be devil propaganda spread to deceive and manipulate their enemies and allies. :smallbiggrin:

And coercion is a...misleading term. They can't magically compel you to sign a faustian pact, or physically force you to sign your name...but they can sure as hell manipulate, deceive, and trick you into signing one and many people would describe that as 'coercion'. Course, as you pointed out, if you think you're soul is damned already then why hold back on the evilness? Could end up damned anyway.

As for what they want...it's been covered. They want souls, and they aren't picky about who's soul. Barring that, they'll take gold, magical items, etc (cause those can be used to get souls/fund the Bloodwar), favors, or changes in your society's policies and practices to make it a more LE one...and lets face it, if you're using devils as bureaucrats then you're probably already well on your way to being a LE society anyway.

While the story of how Asmodeus arranged the creation of the Pact Primeval might be a bit twisted, the document itself is demonstrably real. There are copies in Mechanus and Celestia. Their locations are touchstone sites. Also all three websters definitions of coerce include the use of force or misuse of authority. Social black-mail, deception, and bribery are the accepted and expected methods of obtaining signatories. (Even if that's not quite what all the gods of law had in mind.)

Of course all of this supposes that FC2 is in play.