8 different Alignments for 8 Different Wizards.

[Sunken Valley]

Okay, I'm planning a campaign which has 8 high level (at least 9th lv spells) wizard NPCs who each rule their own kingdoms. I want each Wizard to specialise in a different school (no universalists) and each one to have a different alignment (not N). But which Alignment for each school? NE for Necromancy is obvious, but the rest?

[Temotei]

It's probably best to not get caught up in how alignment affects spell choice. In fact, the wizards will probably be more interesting if they deviate from the expected alignment. A Chaotic Good-aligned necromancer, a Lawful Evil Abjurer, etc.

Personally, I'd just make the characters and then assign their schools and alignments. I think it'd be not only easier, but more fun for everyone in the end.

[Lord Tyger]

Whatever you want?

Transmutation could be about craftsmanship and altering the world to have it confirm to your patterns (LN) or about change, and keeping the world a constantly shifting thing (CN). Conjuration could be healing (NG) or binding extraplanar creatures to your will (LG, LN, or LE, depending on the nature of the creatures and what you're making them do), or about the creation of new matter (CG, CN, CE, depending on what you're creating).

[Zaydos]

Mine would be:
Evocation: Chaotic Evil.
Enchantment: Lawful Evil.
Necromancy: Neutral Evil.
Transmutation: Chaotic Neutral
Conjuration: Lawful Neutral
Abjuration: Lawful Good
Divination: Neutral Good
Illusion: Chaotic Good

Evocation just seems like the Chaotic Evil blast them all and see them burn personality.
Enchantment allows you to maintain control, ruling the populace with an iron fist while they never think about rebellion.
Transmutation: Lots of versatility and shapeshifting seems like what a chaotic character would do; also as possibly the strongest school this keeps it relatively unaligned.
Conjuration: Pacts, oaths, and deals are the work of a summoner giving them a lawful bent. Also same as Transmutation this way the two best schools are opposing each other.
Divination: Definitely seems goodish to me, and when it came down to it Abjuration seemed more Lawful to me.
Abjuration: Seems more good aligned and has a strong defend others vibe which makes it Lawful Good in my mind.
Illusion: Definitely chaotic, and gnomes are good so umm yeah Chaotic Good.

[KnightOfV]

I think True Neutral works best for Divination. Think of all the powerful oracles in fiction that watch everything and do nothing to change events, besides possibly giving vague advise to wayward heroes.

Really though, you could make an argument for any school with any alignment.

[Blisstake]

Hm, this is what I would do, going soley by stereotype

Lawful Good: Abjuration
Neutral Good: Divination
Chaotic Good: Illusion
Lawful Neutral: Transmutation
Chaotic Neutral: Enchantment
Lawful Evil: Conjuration
Neutral Evil: Necromancy
Chaotic Evil: Evocation

[Kurald Galain]

Interesting. I would put transmutation under chaotic (because it constantly changes things) and would put enchantment under evil (because, you know, mind control).

[Urpriest]

One option would be to think about how useful a given school is to a certain mindset. I definitely think Enchantment might be nice for a tyrant (LE) for example, but so might Illusion, and especially Divination. Enchantment can only let you control a few potential rebels, Divination can let you find the rebels' den and slaughter them all.

A LN Wizard-King can't simply be devoted to his own laws. He should be devoted to a higher purpose, likely relating to magic: perhaps he's an expert mage-killer, or on the other end of the spectrum perhaps he believes in spreading a system of rules for magic. For either archetype, Abjuration would be useful.

Evocation could fit in just about anywhere, though I agree that if a Wizard-King focuses on it they likely enjoy being on the front lines themselves, which points toward Chaotic.

Conjuration can create food and shelter, call up laborers who work free of charge, make valuable goods out of thin air and let people travel across the world in the blink of an eye. It's the foundation for the Tippyverse, and the kind of Wizard who sets up this sort of (mild) Tippyverse is probably Lawful Good.

[SaintRidley]

Here's another arrangement to consider:

Lawful Good: Abjuration - Typical Sorcadin type
Neutral Good: Necromancy - life and death, power over them put toward benevolent use.
Chaotic Good: Illusion - All for the sake of the greater good.
Lawful Neutral: Transmutation - neither good nor evil, only concerned with remaking the world to fit hir desires.
True Neutral: Evocation - A leader who seeks to be left alone and who ensures through contingencies that nothing is coming to visit.
Chaotic Neutral: Enchantment - A charmer who magically enhances hir approval ratings and uses magic to bring convenient discord to international relations.
Lawful Evil: Conjuration - Summoned armies, nuff said.
Chaotic Evil: Divination - Scry and die taken to the extreme.

[Togo]

I'd make conjuration specialist evil, if only because so many of the interesting summoned and called monsters are evil. Similarly, necromancy is generally an evil act, so unless you decide otherwise, it's easier to make the necromancer evil too. Most of the evocation school is about blowing stuff up, and most of the abjuration school involves complicated and intricate spells and designs, so I'd make them chaotic and lawful respectively. Divination is probably more useful to a lawful character too, and charm to a chaotic one who isn't good.

That leaves:

abjuration lawful good
divination lawful neutral
necromancer lawful evil
conjuration chaotic evil (you could swap these two depending if you prefer demons or devils)
enchantment/charm chaotic neutral
Evocation chaotic good
Then fill in illusion and transmutation as neutral good and neutral evil, in either combination.

However, to make more memorable characters, I'd design a wizard of each alignement first, and then give them specialities that suit their personality. I'd also suggest that juggling 8 NPCs is probably too many, particularly if all you can tell us about them is their school specialisation. They should have other traits and features that come across more strongly.

[deuxhero]

How about you throw a neutral hungry universalist in there?

[Godskook]

I'd go:

Divination = Lawful Neutral
Abjuration = Lawful Good
Necromancy = Neutral Evil
Evocation = Chaotic Evil
Illusion = Chaotic Good
Transmutation = Chaotic Neutral
Enchantment = Lawful Evil
Conjuration = Neutral Good

[limejuicepowder]

This doesn't really answer your question but I just thought of it so now I need to say it:

I think the 8 wizards should actually be the same wizard, but fractured. At one time, he (she?) was a near-deific practitioner of magic, but somehow his mind and body was split -

reasons:
-Did it intentionally. Perhaps he was lonely, lacking good conversation partners (after all, who can maintain an interesting conversation with someone sporting a 40 int?), so he made a spell to break himself in to 8 bodies. Each body was granted a portion of his magical research (the schools), along with the thoughts of different parts of his mind. However, he didn't count on the different parts of his personality hating each other once they gained autonomy, so now he is stuck. Perhaps so much time has past that the different parts don't even know their true origins.

-A god or arch-demon did it to him. Perhaps he lost a battle, or sought what was better left alone (in which case his name should be Icarus :P). Now his true consciousnesses is stuck in vestige form, forced to watch portions of his talent battle endlessly and futilely.

In any case, I think it would be more fun to have the wizards be more dynamic then just different alignments; having them be different personas of the same person would be pretty awesome. Looking superficially similar, using similar mannerisms, etc. You can still have each one embody a different alignment; that would in fact be the "power" of the situation. Think of it like identical twins with radically different ideals, but still carrying their plans out in similar ways. Just with 8.

[Sutremaine]

I decided to roll for my alignments. Version 1, in which I didn't roll anything above a 3 running from d8 to d2 (technically d1):

LG Conjurer: Creates things for the betterment of others, sets up a transport network so people don't have to rely on individual spells.
NG Enchanter: A benevolent puppetmaster.
CG Abjurer: It's good to have protection when you run around poking your nose into everything and playing Robin Hood.

LN Evoker: Just someone who happens to be LN, a wizard, and a specialist Evoker.
CN Diviner: For when you want to know the answers right now.

LE Illusionist: People are predictable in their responses. Controlling what they respond to makes them controllable too.
NE Necromancer: Ehh.
CE Transmuter: Sudden change is chaotic, especially when you don't really care about the consequences.

Yeah, I rolled up a NE Necromancer.
Version 2:

LG Evoker: A Paladin with bigger guns.
NG Necromancer: There's more to Necromancy than undead, and other schools have their fair share of nasty spells. A Good character intellectually interested in the flow of life and death and unsuited to be a cleric could have an exclusive focus on the school without turning into a DN-wannabe.
CG Illusionist: Is CG, is a wizard, has specialised in this.

LN Abjurer: Everything has its place. Abjuration helps to impose that unwritten law on the universe.
CN Enchanter: Talk your way into a mess, talk your way out of it!

LE Transmuter: Don't do the work yourself, set others up to do it. If they fail, it's their fault. If they succeed, set them up again with more resources.
NE Conjurer: Bind and summon cannon fodder and distractions.
CE Diviner: Who needs a plan when you can see what the enemy's doing whenever you want?

For some of those I couldn't really think of anything specific. That's fine by me, making all those characters' personalities able to be described as an alignment/school combo (as opposed to being labelled as one) would be gimmicky.

[Reficule]

I decided to roll for my alignments. Version 1, in which I didn't roll anything above a 3 running from d8 to d2 (technically d1):

LG Conjurer: Creates things for the betterment of others, sets up a transport network so people don't have to rely on individual spells.
NG Enchanter: A benevolent puppetmaster.
CG Abjurer: It's good to have protection when you run around poking your nose into everything and playing Robin Hood.

LN Evoker: Just someone who happens to be LN, a wizard, and a specialist Evoker.
CN Diviner: For when you want to know the answers right now.

LE Illusionist: People are predictable in their responses. Controlling what they respond to makes them controllable too.
NE Necromancer: Ehh.
CE Transmuter: Sudden change is chaotic, especially when you don't really care about the consequences.

Yeah, I rolled up a NE Necromancer.
Version 2:

LG Evoker: A Paladin with bigger guns.
NG Necromancer: There's more to Necromancy than undead, and other schools have their fair share of nasty spells. A Good character intellectually interested in the flow of life and death and unsuited to be a cleric could have an exclusive focus on the school without turning into a DN-wannabe.
CG Illusionist: Is CG, is a wizard, has specialised in this.

LN Abjurer: Everything has its place. Abjuration helps to impose that unwritten law on the universe.
CN Enchanter: Talk your way into a mess, talk your way out of it!

LE Transmuter: Don't do the work yourself, set others up to do it. If they fail, it's their fault. If they succeed, set them up again with more resources.
NE Conjurer: Bind and summon cannon fodder and distractions.
CE Diviner: Who needs a plan when you can see what the enemy's doing whenever you want?

For some of those I couldn't really think of anything specific. That's fine by me, making all those characters' personalities able to be described as an alignment/school combo (as opposed to being labelled as one) would be gimmicky.

Okay... So version two sets up some really powerful BBEGs, comsidering the evil alignments got the three best schools. Good luck to the players, theyll need it

[Psyren]

The hardest one to peg seems to be Conjuration.

I'm fine with the other 7:

Enchantment: LE
Necromancy: NE
Evocation: CE
Illusion: CN
Transmutation: CG
Abjuration: LG
Divination: LN

Identical to Godskook's ranking except I felt Transmutation was more good (easier to help people, by buffing them) than Illusion.

But pegging Conjuration at the remaining NG spot feels very off. As it's the easiest school to change your alignment with (in any direction) through repeated use, I can't really put it anywhere but TN.

Maybe leave NG empty? :-/

[Kurald Galain]

You can make a decent case for evocation being lawful good, too. It's the most pure, honest, and direct school: you just blow stuff up, without all that manipulation, matter alteration, and mind tricks of several other schools. Liken it to holy smiting and have the evoker be a zealot, and you're all set. There's no need for all blaster wizards to be Xykon, after all.

For instance,

LG Evocation, as above.
NG Abjuration, because of its protective nature
CG Divination

LN Conjuration, as necromancy's less-evil brother
CN Transmutation, obviously

LE Necromancy, as conjuration's evil sister
NE Illusion, it's all about deceit
CE Enchantment, because mind control is a special kind of evil

[Zale]

Let's see what strangeness I can come up with.

The Enchantress (LG) is a beloved ruler. She's something of a puppet-master, but refrains form ruling her subjects utterly. Instead, she smooths things over. The Kingdom was fraught with blood-feuds and horrible invasions before she ascended to the throne, but now there's an air of amiability and safety. Any invading army would soon find themselves visited by the Enchantress, who would persuade them to return from whence they came before any blood is spilled.

The Necromancer (NG) is something of an distant ruler. He allows a council to rule for him day-to-day, as his time is consumed with his work. It's only thanks to his tireless efforts that the dead remain in their graves and catacombs. Before he came, zombies and skeletons wandered the hills. Vampires and Liches established their own private fiefdoms, murdering living people or using them as a food supply. Now no one must fear the night any longer.

The Envoker (CG) is something of a loose cannon. He's highly regarded in the military and among the common people for his informality and lack of general snootiness. His powerful spells are this small kingdom's only real defenses. Due to it's location, this kingdom has long been the battle field for countless wars. Now, with a powerful wizard threatening to rain arcane destruction upon anyone who dares invade, people can lay down their arms and get on with living.

The Illusionist (LN) is swathed in mystery and formalities. She is strict, canny and very fixated on propriety. Her kingdom is was a loose confederacy of warring states before she assumed command. Though some grumble about the loss of their Independency, they have no doubt that thanks to their new rulers iron will and cunning illusions, they'll come out ahead in the future.

The Diviner (CN) is rather.. odd. He is known for being reclusive and eccentric, often speaking with strange mannerisms or doing bizarre things. His advice is, however, right about eighty percent of the time. As such, he was swiftly elevated by a several nobles into a position of king-hood, so that they could better act out on the advice of their puppet-king.

The Conjurer (LE) is a tyrant. His slaves, both demonic and devlish, are everywhere. Even the slightest hint of deviancy from his laws are met with sudden punishment. Many people vanish in the night, to be taken the gods only know where. People mourn the past, before their king passed his power onto his only lawful son.

The Abjurer (NE) cares for nothing. She thinks herself beyond all possible harm. Her rise to power was nothing short of horrible and bloody, cutting directly through the ranks of power. But now that she has this power, she does nothing with it, only plotting her next interesting act of evil. Everyone, terrified of her, goes through the motions of patriotism in fear that she may strike out at them if they fail to.

The Transmuter (CE) is formless and everchanging. Everyday, he or she rises with a new body and form. From giant animals to horrid abberations without any logic or reason behind it. More monster than man, this being keeps the palace of the Kingdom as it's lair, occasionally going out to butcher nobles or commoners in a new form. People live constantly on the edge, wondering if today was the day that they would die.

[limejuicepowder]

- quote -

This rocks bro. Good job.

[Psyren]

The Enchantress (LG) is a beloved ruler. She's something of a puppet-master, but refrains form ruling her subjects utterly. Instead, she smooths things over. The Kingdom was fraught with blood-feuds and horrible invasions before she ascended to the throne, but now there's an air of amiability and safety. Any invading army would soon find themselves visited by the Enchantress, who would persuade them to return from whence they came before any blood is spilled.

Urk. This one smacks of dystopia to me. Yeah there's peace, but at the expense of rewriting anyone who wants to cause conflict. The wording you use ("an air of amiability and safety") is very telling of what this would actually be like in practice.



The Necromancer (NG) is something of an distant ruler. He allows a council to rule for him day-to-day, as his time is consumed with his work. It's only thanks to his tireless efforts that the dead remain in their graves and catacombs. Before he came, zombies and skeletons wandered the hills. Vampires and Liches established their own private fiefdoms, murdering living people or using them as a food supply. Now no one must fear the night any longer.

My one issue here is that you could launch such a crusade with any of the specialties, except maybe Enchantment and Divination. It's not really related to the school itself, unless he's raising corpses to fight corpses, which is going to push him into TN or lower eventually if he's not a Hellbred.



The Illusionist (LN) is swathed in mystery and formalities. She is strict, canny and very fixated on propriety. Her kingdom is was a loose confederacy of warring states before she assumed command. Though some grumble about the loss of their Independency, they have no doubt that thanks to their new rulers iron will and cunning illusions, they'll come out ahead in the future.

This one is also unrelated to the actual school of magic being used. All I see is "canny" and "powerful," neither of which are unique to Illusion.



The Envoker (CG) is something of a loose cannon. He's highly regarded in the military and among the common people for his informality and lack of general snootiness. His powerful spells are this small kingdom's only real defenses. Due to it's location, this kingdom has long been the battle field for countless wars. Now, with a powerful wizard threatening to rain arcane destruction upon anyone who dares invade, people can lay down their arms and get on with living.

Is he really CG though? Suppose someone calls his bluff - how will he know when a situation warrants lethal force and when not? It's not like you can pull a lightning bolt.

No real issue with the others.

[Urpriest]

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a LE Diviner. It's just got such deliciously Orwellian possibilities.

[Sutremaine]

Okay... So version two sets up some really powerful BBEGs, comsidering the evil alignments got the three best schools. Good luck to the players, theyll need it
Were the eight wizards intended to be BBEGs / BBGGs? That could prove tricky if the players themselves have no magical match for the evil ones, but if they're just in the background ruling their kingdoms then all the player has to do is not annoy them to the point of retaliation. Not all Evil people are megalomaniacs, and depending on the overarching threat the Evil wizards might want it taken down as well.

[Eurus]

Here's my own version.

Divination: Chaotic Evil
The All-Seeing is powerful but intensely paranoid, and makes heavy use of his magical talents to root out any traces of possible danger or betrayal. Trusted advisers might find themselves suddenly imprisoned or executed for crimes they might eventually commit in the future, "privacy" is nonexistent, and even his own vassals can't really predict what will happen in the next few days. All are simply puppets, tugged on strings that only the mage-king can see.

Abjuration: Neutral Evil
Queen Oda is the ruthless and eminently pragmatic ruler of a mercenary kingdom, allying itself with the highest bidder and relying on force of arms to protect it. They also are willing to hide and protect objects and people, for a fee; if a lich needs to hide his phylactery or an exiled noble wants to lay low, Queen Oda can certainly comply, for an extravagant price. Though small in territory, the kingdom's potent barrier mages and well-armed soldiers make up one of the larger forces on the continent, requiring it to sustain itself on the payments of others. Still, having Queen Oda on your side is a significant edge in any military conflict.

Illusion: Lawful Evil
Few people even know of the existence of Mockingbird, which is just the way he (she?) likes it. By periodically changing its appearance, Mockingbird has kept an eye on its kingdom for decades from behind the scenes, allowing various rulers to come and go while always keeping a finger on the pulse and disposing of any who grow too dangerous. A complex and byzantine system of peerage and nobility makes up the backbone of the kingdom, with titles and lands frequently won and lost according to merit or favor. Although it can be a harsh land, Mockingbird's kingdom is where many go to seek their fortune (and hopefully keep it), for a quick wit and strong arm can take you far.

Conjuration: Chaotic Good
The Nameless Prince is a stranger from unknown lands, a master in the art of binding spirits, demons, and angels alike. But despite his unusual methods, he uses these entities for generally positive ends; a mighty efreeti to carry a traveler to safety, a horde of demons to repair a town, or elementals to work the fields. Many in his kingdom use this advantage to devote themselves to the arts or sciences, while others craft and trade luxuries or study magic to bind entities of their own. Some cry exploitation at this state of being, but the Prince simply shrugs it off. What is a few years of work from the life of an immortal being, after all, if it improves the lives of many?

Necromancy: Lawful Good
The White Judge does not consider herself a ruler, but rather an arbiter responsible for keeping the peace in the land. Her kingdom flourishes on the back of undead labor, obtained from the generally-willing populace. Those who perish in her land are, at their own choice, either cremated or animated so that their bones may help the living. Especially honored citizens may be summoned as powerful ghosts or intelligent undead, and are given a great deal of respect and authority. "Natural" undead, such as wraiths and shades, are vigilantly tracked down and destroyed so that they may rest in peace, and those who unlawfully obtain corpses for necromancy are severely punished. She believes that the body is merely a shell for the immortal spirit, a philosophy considered unnerving by many of the other kingdoms but accepted by most of her subjects.

Evocation: Chaotic Neutral
Lord Martin single-handedly carved out his kingdom from the warring barbarian tribes that once made it up, eventually bringing thousands of men together under his banner. While well-meaning and good natured, his tactics tend to be rather simple; behave yourself, and everyone's happy. Fail to do so, and be punished. Most are more than willing to comply, or else free to seek their fortune in another land. Unfortunately, he grows old, and many wonder what will become of the kingdom once his stabilizing presence is gone.

Enchantment: Lawful Neutral
King Aloysius is a ruler beloved by his people, and respected by his rivals. His domain is perhaps the closest thing to a utopia that one can imagine, as long as "free will" isn't in the description. Detractors consider it fake and tyrannical, but the citizens seem pretty happy, and most would probably return willingly if removed from the kingdom. Of course, those who prefer freedom to bliss are out of luck, necessary casualties for the happiness of the many...

Transmutation: Neutral Good
Lady Alexina, referred to by some as "Saint" Alexina, is an enigma. At some point in the past, she turned barren land into a mighty kingdom with little more than her own magic. The massive structures of molded stone and metal that dot the land are halfway between castles and cities, while much of the kingdom's income is from resources transmuted by Alexina herself. The kingdom keeps no standing army, yet in times of trouble, Alexina and her mage-priests can transform the noble citizens of the land into warriors with the strength of dozens, giving a nasty surprise to any attackers. Yet the Lady herself is almost never seen except by her most faithful apprentices, never leaving her chambers or addressing the public. Some wonder if she is ill, or if she even still exists.

[Theoboldi]

-stuff-

I find this one quite good, though I don't understand why the illusionist is suposed to be more evil then the enchanter. :smallconfused:
Why is the guy who pretty much abolishes free will more good than the guy who rules his country from behind the scenes.? The only real evil on the illusionist's side seems to be the disposing of powerful nobles. Am I missing something here?

[ExtravagantEvil]

Here's my set up:



Abjuration: LE
Necromancy: LN
Illusion: CG
Enchantment: NE
Divination: NG
Conjuration: CN
Evocation: LG
Transmutation: CE

Here's my justifications:
I tried to set each of these to some sort of "style" of leadership and even government structure, and why and how they'd behave with their magic as a symbolic representation.

Abjuration: I like the idea of a paranoid abjurationist. A ruler who runs a police state, security comes first. As such, every location is set with antimagic fields, globes of invulnerability. He has seen the kingdoms around him, and is maddeningly paranoid. However, he just sets up a vast series of walls, forming an isolationist heart here, and he does anything to keep his security measures going, with a police force defended with a plethora of invulnerabilities and buffs.

Conjuration: This style of Chaotic Neutral could almost be seen as an idea of lazy governance. He summons creatures to form an interdimensional caucus to make decisions, having conjured and payed for multidimensional police of all stripes. It's such a melting pot of creatures, it is prone to feuding with itself. The usage of all these creatures of antithetical purposes is to create equality.
All creatures, ideas and so on have the right to exist and compete. So people generally are competitive, and this usage of multi-alignment fighting force is to try to create an environment of pure freedom for the citizens.

Divination: Here I see a very benign ruler, and with knowledge being power, he doesn't focus on inward examination. The Ruler sends his visions and scouts outward. A series of spy networks, and scientific bureaus and so on are set up for advancing the society inside with knowledge, both magical, but political. It uses the magic to keep a good, but not intrusive, security, while the outside world has magical sensors at every point, spy networks and so on. This one is closer to the tippyverse style of existence, using knowledge for the benefit of the people directly.

Enchantment: Here, I see a vain, tyrant. One who doesn't care about the continuation of their reign, but their own power. A reign can last from multiple eras. Here I'd see it being that of a pompous ruler, who dominates all subtly to worship him as a god of sorts, to feed an ego and need for wealth. The people are his objects to use for his own gloating, and to take vengeance against petty slights. It's not Orwellian, but very close. This ruler compensates their subtle magic for a very ostentatious display and behavior. Cliche villain behavior expected here.

Evocation: I imagine this one set on a magical system similar to feudal Europe. A Duelists honor, wands drawn at high noon scenarios. Lots here see Evocation as uncontrolled, so that's why they placed Chaotic systems here. I say that a government founded this way is based on the principles of combat. That there is inherent art to magical dueling and the tradition set by the high kings. They are a peaceful state commonly run by Tsun Zu type of people, and could be compared as a mixture of the Chinese and Old british states. Heavy emphasis on honor, personal skill, and ability to contribute and defend the state and oneself.

Illusion: This ruler I'd imagine being one that focuses on people's happiness, and is a government set up by artists and musicians and creators. Here, it could be seen as a very delusional and naive system of governance. It's people are always free to do as they please socially, do what they will, say what they will, as they wish it, but the government uses it's illusions to keep it's utopia hidden and covering up cracks that come from the system they designed, and it manages to sustain itself through the willful ignorance of the people. It's a basic Direct Democratic style set up, and very freeformed. Due to the constant competition of voices, it leads to confusion in the midst of all this exchange of views and argument.

Necromany: I argue LN, largely because Wizards don't need to worry about the alignments of their spells infringing on theirs. Letting Create Undead Spells still be on the table for any. I see this one being one that focuses on a nearly communist set up. Further, it focuses on one contributing to society, being a cog in the machine, being part of something bigger than you were.
So, it is logical for a creature to contribute to society as long as it could, for the life time of support you've gotten, that you can contribute to yours, and the next. It's very secular, and distances people from glorifying the metahuman form or growing disgusted by it. It is something that holds consciousness, your body can work, while your mind contributes to ideas and developments of the community as you work. And by creating an inherent separation of identity from form and spirit, they do not mind their forms being used, while their spirits rest in the afterlife.

Transmutation: I thought of this as Nero. Frankly. Transmutation embodies change, experimenting with shape. A government system built like that would be madness incarnate. Shuffled and lost paperwork, constant changes in the very basis of government leaves people so lost in the scuffle that it is nothing more than caged anarchy. A leader with this mentality would be cripplingly insane, and most likely light a fire under the seat of it's populace to watch it burn. It would not be authoritarian because it would constantly shift under the control of the mad transmuter changing the buildings, the systems of governance, tax codes, roads, guard shifts. It would be a mad man just toying with people to watch how they react. He will play the fiddle while his house of records burns, or gets slowly gets reformed and then magically disintegrated.

[Draz74]

Abjuration: A paranoid school. Paranoia doesn't have to mean any certain alignment, and Chaotic Neutral doesn't have to mean "nutcase," but a CN paranoid nutcase can make a very fun character. Probably a young fellow -- very talented and somewhat well-meaning, but very unstable -- who inherited the throne rather than earning it somehow.

Conjuration: As others have argued, this school is probably inherently neutral on the good-evil axis. I also think it's inherently slightly lawful, based on how it forces creatures to act in a certain way and/or restricts their movements physically. But more than any particular alignment, this school stands out as being the most powerful; a good choice for a king who will otherwise have trouble maintaining his rule, such as a Chaotic Evil king who isn't very good at making friends with his neighbors (or subordinates, for that matter).

Divination: Others have argued this is a "good" school because it's nonviolent and because knowledge is good. But I can't help thinking how fun it could be to frustrate the players with a BBEG whose kingdom seems weak enough to beat, but who always seems to outwit his opponents with superior knowledge of what they're going to be doing. So I'm voting for a Neutral Evil Diviner.

Enchantment: I'm not a big fan of mind-control; I'm not going to fight what was many people's initial reaction to this school. Especially not when the ruler is high enough in level to access Mindrape. Lawful Evil tyrant all the way.

Evocation: Rulers tend to be lawful on the whole. One of the ways a chaotic leader can actually maintain power is through flashy, extravagant displays of power that win his rivals' admiration. Chaotic Good: a jolly, rambunctious (and dangerous) Evoker-king, possibly over a warrior culture who are a little less sophisticated about what kinds of leadership they respect.

Illusion: I see why people see this school as inherently chaotic, but specifically for a ruler, I don't see how it would be particularly useful in that way. It would mostly get used for personal protection, entertainment, and possibly (if the kingdom is rather small and isolated) deceptive protection of the borders. I'm going to say Lawful Good, because I'm amused by the idea of a king who puts himself "equal" with his subjects by wandering the land in magical disguises, making an honest living through hard labor, doing anonymous good deeds to those who deserve/need them, and fostering an attitude of "you'd better be kind to whomever you meet, because they might be the king in disguise."

Necromancy: Yeah, evil could work well here, but at the moment I'm feeling like the world needs another Raven Queen-esque character who sees death as a force of Law. And possibly another ruler who (reluctantly) agrees that skeleton and zombie laborers are a great boost to the economy. So ... Lawful Neutral.

Transmutation: I get why people are saying that this school is an agent of change, and change is chaotic, but I'm just not feeling it. I resonated more with the comment that this school has a lot of buffs, which seems like a good style. And realistically, a king with this school would actually end up using a LOT of his magic for things like Fabricate, leading to a rather abundant bounty in the kingdom's lifestyle. So I'ma go with Neutral Good.

[Zale]

Urk. This one smacks of dystopia to me. Yeah there's peace, but at the expense of rewriting anyone who wants to cause conflict. The wording you use ("an air of amiability and safety") is very telling of what this would actually be like in practice.


Alright. I can see that. Lawful Good means that she'd probably try to avoid stepping on people's free will, but yeah, I'd probably agree.




My one issue here is that you could launch such a crusade with any of the specialties, except maybe Enchantment and Divination. It's not really related to the school itself, unless he's raising corpses to fight corpses, which is going to push him into TN or lower eventually if he's not a Hellbred.


How many spells does the Necromancy school have that can control or destroy undead? I think it has at least a few.



This one is also unrelated to the actual school of magic being used. All I see is "canny" and "powerful," neither of which are unique to Illusion.


Your point? I'm giving the OP some ideas for characters they could use. I'm not saying anything in particular about which school I think goes to which alignment. A character should be more than their school specialization.

I did, however, have very few ideas on what to do with Illusion, so I went with this. :smallbiggrin: You caught me.



Is he really CG though? Suppose someone calls his bluff - how will he know when a situation warrants lethal force and when not? It's not like you can pull a lightning bolt.


Non-Lethal Substitution Metamagic.

Though, I'm sure his contributions would be more along the lines of sending invading armies fleeing than anything else.

[Dr_S]

I think True Neutral works best for Divination. Think of all the powerful oracles in fiction that watch everything and do nothing to change events, besides possibly giving vague advise to wayward heroes.

Really though, you could make an argument for any school with any alignment.

I think by the same logic you could argue Lawful Neutral, just as often they see, and believe they shouldn't interfere, that it's somehow against the rules to act beyond relaying the message to whomever they're supposed to relay it to.

ok I've decided:
. . . . . Chaos . . . . Neutral . . . . . Lawful
Good . .Illusion . . . Transmutation Abjuration
Neutral Conjuration None . . . . . . .Divination
Evil . . .Evocation . Necromancy . .Enchantment

Evocation is about raw power I also see it as the opposite of Abjuration which is about protection. One almost exclusively hurts people where the other almost exclusively protects.

Illusion is about trickery and deceit, but doesn't generally directly harm anyone.

Enchantment I agree with many in this thread mind control = bad, and I imagine that a ruler who doesn't value free will would employ such tactics.

Conjuration seems like a mixed bag of tricks, the spells can be unpredictable (i.e. failed teleports) and have some good (healing) and evil aspects (bringing things from another plane against their will and controlling them to serve your purpose)

Finally transmutation is the school with all the buffs (eagle's splendor, cat's grace, Walrus' Appetite etc.) which are beneficial, and oft are best used on other people.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Funny how Necromancy appears to be Neutral Evil to everybody.

Here's my two cents:

Lawful Good: Abjuration. I think this one is pretty much a no-brainer; abjuration is used to abjure, ward, protect, and almost exclusively for the avoidance of harm (and when it does cause "harm", it is typically to constructs or undead, or creatures that don't feel "harm").

Neutral Good: Conjuration. Creation has no preference for law or chaos (sometimes, creation helps establish a sense of order, and sometimes, creation itself is chaos), and sometimes the tools of creation can be themselves bent toward evil, but creation itself is never inherently evil. It is simply creation. (This is the one that I would switch to True Neutral in a heartbeat, if given the opportunity.)

Chaotic Good: Transmutation is change. Channeled wisely, change is almost universally good.

Lawful Neutral: Divination. Having your finger on the pulse of the world, an eye on every street corner, isn't itself inherently good or evil, but it is essential to absolute order.

Chaotic Neutral: Evocation. Destruction itself is not an evil act, which is why few (if any) evocations are actually [evil]. Destruction is simply entropy enacting itself upon the world, which is a purely chaotic act, but not necessarily an evil one.

Lawful Evil: Necromancy. The act of dealing with death implies a certain sense of order, as death has its rules, and they are absolute; every Necromancer knows this, and works within this certain framework as a result. While it is not inherently evil, it does require some moral flexibility to have the fortitude to undertake such tasks. More importantly that death is fear, however, as fear is absolutely essential for the functioning of any long-lasting tyranny, and Necromancy does fear.

Neutral Evil: Enchantment. The person who would reprogram the minds of those around them to advance their own self-interests is the most self-serving of all, and most likely detached from morality as a whole.

Chaotic Evil: Illusion. Illusion deals almost exclusively in trickery and deceit, and deprives those around it with a sense of what is real; I can think of no better way to foster mistrust and hesitance in a people than to introduce the idea that everyone and everything around you may be not quite what they seem. Illusion is never used with good aims in mind, insomuch as misdirection and deceit is never a good, and is often used to entrap, confuse, or even kill people (NOTE: it is the school of the first "kill" spell).

The chaotic axis is more or less interchangeable (an arrangement of Illusion, Transmutation and Evocation from good to evil is probably more conventional), but I see this as more or less fitting neatly with conventional (or at least, reasoned) interpretations of the different schools.

[vhfforever]

I actually really enjoy the idea of a totalitarian police-state run by a Lawful Evil Diviner who had managed to put together the best parts of 1984 and Minority Report. Pre-crime and fear ruling the entire place, and he's kept safe in his castle by the countless glimpses he's seen of the future, and knows just when he needs to pass changes in the laws to crush his enemies and keep his domain strong.

[Eurus]

I find this one quite good, though I don't understand why the illusionist is suposed to be more evil then the enchanter. :smallconfused:
Why is the guy who pretty much abolishes free will more good than the guy who rules his country from behind the scenes.? The only real evil on the illusionist's side seems to be the disposing of powerful nobles. Am I missing something here?

Well, the idea is that the Illusionist's kingdom is basically a giant court full of backstabbers and power-grabbers who are constantly deposing each other and shifting alliances, winning and losing glory and titles like chips at a poker game. The Illusionist likes it that way, so anyone with the potential to bring some long-term stability gets taken care of.

The Enchanter is... complicated. He's definitely morally ambiguous, but his goal is to maximize happiness and wellfare, and the more direct aspects of his magic are only really brought into play against those who threaten this -- most people are pretty content even without brainwashing. He's fully capable of molding your memories or snuffing your free will like a candle, and he won't hesitate to do so if he thinks it's for the best, but he tries not to be too excessive with it.

But you could probably swap the two alignments if it suits you better.

[Psyren]

The Enchanter is... complicated. He's definitely morally ambiguous, but his goal is to maximize happiness and wellfare, and the more direct aspects of his magic are only really brought into play against those who threaten this -- most people are pretty content even without brainwashing. He's fully capable of molding your memories or snuffing your free will like a candle, and he won't hesitate to do so if he thinks it's for the best, but he tries not to be too excessive with it.

So the ends justify the means?

That guy sounds pretty evil to me.

[Zale]

So the ends justify the means?

That guy sounds pretty evil to me.

With D&D Alignment in play, almost certainly.

It gets kind of.. fuzzy outside of that, but I'm sure none of us really wants to touch on that.

Now, if only we had one more school for True Neutral.

[Kurald Galain]

Now, if only we had one more school for True Neutral.

How about a Duskblade? Yeah, not technically a wizard, but he casts arcane spells and clearly in a different way than any other specialist. Or some other kind of gish...

[Synovia]

So the ends justify the means?

That guy sounds pretty evil to me.

There's no way to run any sort of kingdom without occasionally having to use force on your subjects.

[Psyren]

There's no way to run any sort of kingdom without occasionally having to use force on your subjects.

Yes, but legal coercion and mental coercion are VASTLY different. "Molding your memories" is something that no king should ever have the right to do.

[Synovia]

Yes, but legal coercion and mental coercion are VASTLY different. "Molding your memories" is something that no king should ever have the right to do.

Says the morality you live in.

[Lord Tyger]

Yes, but legal coercion and mental coercion are VASTLY different. "Molding your memories" is something that no king should ever have the right to do.

Yes, but you only think that until someone molds your memories to remember being taught otherwise.

[Theoboldi]

Yes, but you only think that until someone molds your memories to remember being taught otherwise.

So when someone forces you to think he is justified, it makes him justified? Is that supposed to be sarcasm? I know that there are different standpoints on this, but I don't understand how you can willingly accept someone changing your mentality by force, just because you won't care later. Seriously, this is the cliché dystopia scenario.

[Devils_Advocate]

You can make a decent case for evocation being lawful good, too. It's the most pure, honest, and direct school: you just blow stuff up, without all that manipulation, matter alteration, and mind tricks of several other schools. Liken it to holy smiting and have the evoker be a zealot, and you're all set. There's no need for all blaster wizards to be Xykon, after all.
Maybe it's just me, but Lawful Good hardly seems like the most likely alignment for someone who wants to blow things up as an end in itself. Killing and property damage don't strike me as appropriate favored means for a Lawful Good character, either. And how is blowing things up as means to an end any more direct (or pure, or honest) than using other means?

Aren't Transmutation, Enchantment, and Necromancy the schools that most often work like


10 Something isn't the way you want it to be.
20 Cast an appropriate spell on the thing.
30 If the thing still isn't the way you want it to be, GOTO 10.
40 The thing is now the way you want it to be.? While Evocation mostly attacks things via blasts of energy and whatnot. And damaging something probably isn't even your end goal! That certainly seem less direct to me that just changing things, uh, directly.

And I'm pretty sure that the concept behind the Paladin class is that while violence is an unfortunate necessity in a world in which Evil is a real and active threat, and thus there's a need for Good people who are good at violence, counteracting Evil instead of just adding to it demands the judicious use of force, instead of just going "I DON'T LIKE YOU, YOU DIE NOW". Like, that's why they have a code of conduct and stuff?


Neutral Good: Conjuration. Creation has no preference for law or chaos (sometimes, creation helps establish a sense of order, and sometimes, creation itself is chaos), and sometimes the tools of creation can be themselves bent toward evil, but creation itself is never inherently evil. It is simply creation. (This is the one that I would switch to True Neutral in a heartbeat, if given the opportunity.)

Chaotic Neutral: Evocation. Destruction itself is not an evil act, which is why few (if any) evocations are actually [evil]. Destruction is simply entropy enacting itself upon the world, which is a purely chaotic act, but not necessarily an evil one.
Ah, but Evocation is the school for creating something out of nothing! Conjuration is the school for instantaneously transporting things. There's the Creation subschool, of course, but I'm not sure how "Conjuration spells that ought to be Evocation" isn't an apt summary of that subschool. (Similarly, Healing rather obviously shouldn't be a subschool of Conjuration. Healing doesn't conjure; it heals. That's why it's called "Healing".)

Evocation destroys by creating destructive stuff. And creation and destruction are often two sides of the same coin, in any case. That's pretty much how it always works in the real world, what with conservation of matter and energy! Stuff gets reconfigured, with old forms destroyed and new forms created. I'm pretty sure that creation and destruction not precisely balancing each other out is limited to rather extraordinary processes, if it happens at all. (Of course, a lot of spells might be thus extraordinary.)


Chaotic Good: Transmutation is change. Channeled wisely, change is almost universally good.
But how often is change channeled wisely?


Chaotic Evil: Illusion. Illusion deals almost exclusively in trickery and deceit, and deprives those around it with a sense of what is real; I can think of no better way to foster mistrust and hesitance in a people than to introduce the idea that everyone and everything around you may be not quite what they seem. Illusion is never used with good aims in mind, insomuch as misdirection and deceit is never a good, and is often used to entrap, confuse, or even kill people.
When I watch an educational video on YouTube, I am presented with false sensations: It looks and sounds as though things are present when they are not. But the intent and the effect is to inform and not to deceive. It is rather like how a surgeon slices people up in order to heal them.

Of course, the fact that the telecommunication spells are classified as Transmutation [Air] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/whisperingWind.htm) and Evocation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sending.htm) hurts my point a bit... but then, sending at least seems like it would better be considered Illusion. (As you may have gathered by now, I think that spells should be classified based on what they actually do. Crazy idea, I know! Obviously, if you look at each school of magic as actually being whatever collection of spells was seemingly thrown together largely by throwing darts at a wall, that changes things.) Regardless, if we abandon the absurd apparent default assumption that spellcasting is almost entirely used for "adventuring" (and thus the campaign world remains medieval despite the presence of magic), then obviously illusions will frequently be used for entertainment and/or communication.


Now, if only we had one more school for True Neutral.
... So, is the popular consensus that Generalist Wizards just don't exist? Because that's increasingly the impression I'm getting.

And as for an actual ninth school, there's Universal.


Yes, but legal coercion and mental coercion are VASTLY different. "Molding your memories" is something that no king should ever have the right to do.
But legal coercion involves the threat of physical force at the very least, and actual physical force when someone won't submit to authority. (This is in no small part because if you don't back up your threats, they cease to be credible.) There's a big difference between substituting mind control for the threat of force and substituting mind control for physical force as a means of enforcement!

Is mind control somehow more Evil than violence? Some people seem to be assuming that, but I'm not seeing a basis for that conclusion. Now, don't get me wrong, I see the intuitive appeal of the argument "You have a body, but you are a mind; it's Enchantment spells that directly force the caster's will on you". But the thing is, punching someone in the face also affects that person's mind; it causes the person to experience the sensation of pain. This may well be the intended result of punching someone. So if punching someone and charming someone both make people's minds do things that they object to, how is charming more Evil?

This gets into something that the books don't seem to cover. Namely, what typically happens after a charm person spell wears off? My guess is that someone unfamiliar with that spell probably wouldn't figure out what had happened, but someone with a lot of experience with such effects would probably piece it together. (While the spell is active, the target trusts the caster; this is an explicit effect of the spell. Even if they made a successful Spellcraft check and know that you charmed them, they won't believe that you were acting against their interests, and you can convince them that you were acting in their interest just by saying so. And, hey, you might not be lying!)

But how would they then feel about it? More upset than if they had been punched in the face? Honestly, gang, that's probably gonna vary by individual. And if one person would rather be punched than charmed and another would rather be charmed than punched, I'm not seeing how one of those preferences is inherently more worthy of respect than the other.

Regardless, I think that we can probably agree that going around punching people for kicks and going around charming people for kicks are both pretty immoral. Also, it's difficult to imagine a much worse means of enslaving someone than dominate person.

[Psyren]

Aren't Transmutation, Enchantment, and Necromancy the schools that most often work like


10 Something isn't the way you want it to be.
20 Cast an appropriate spell on the thing.
30 If the thing still isn't the way you want it to be, GOTO 10.
40 The thing is now the way you want it to be.? While Evocation mostly attacks things via blasts of energy and whatnot.

If what you want is "dead" then Evocation works just fine with this :smalltongue: