PF Combat Maneuver Bonus/Defense vs 3.5 Special Combat Actions

[Morph Bark]

I've recently begun to dug into Pathfinder a little and found some stuff I liked about it, like gaining feats more often and folding several old skills into one.

I've also looked at the Combat Maneuvers and the Bonus/Defense a little and I am wondering how it matches up against the 3.5 special combat actions. When comparing these together, which are easier to use? Which work better? How much does Pathfinder work towards fixing the Grapple rules?

[The Boz]

Pathfinder CMD/CMB is sixteen thousand times easier to use and comprehend and build for/against than 3.0/3.5 actions.
Still kinda complicated.

[That_guy_there]

Pathfinder CMD/CMB is sixteen thousand times easier to use and comprehend and build for/against than 3.0/3.5 actions.
Still kinda complicated.

This.

CMB/ CMD makes grapples, Sunder, Trip, disarm, and other special manuevers easier to resolve and deal with since they all use the same bonus and defense (which is easily found/ calculated). And also there are a few other mauvers (dirty trick, reposition) that make PF stuff fiun.

[Psyren]

You even keep the granularity of 3.5. Say you have a monster that is better at one maneuver (e.g. grappling) than others (tripping/disarming/etc.) All you have to do is just start with its normal CMB, and then give it a bonus on CMB checks to do the thing it's good at. Most monsters have this built into their statblocks already, saving you even that bit of work. Chokers (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/choker) are an example of this.

[That_guy_there]

You even keep the granularity of 3.5. Say you have a monster that is better at one maneuver (e.g. grappling) than others (tripping/disarming/etc.) All you have to do is just start with its normal CMB, and then give it a bonus on CMB checks to do the thing it's good at. Most monsters have this built into their statblocks already, saving you even that bit of work. Chokers (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/choker) are an example of this.

And this is reason #2 i pushed my regular group to slowly transition to PF as our "regular" system (since we keep our 3.5 stuff out of PF). Also I enjoy TOB waaaay too much to ever go back to "normal" martial classes and I ruined a No magic game with a charging tanking armor focused shifter. (kinda long story)

[Morph Bark]

Do 3.5 combat maneuvers have anything over PF combat maneuvers then?

[Keneth]

Pathfinder grappling still requires three separate flowcharts to use effectively. :smallbiggrin:

Grappling is silly, especially when it comes to grappling multiple opponents or being grappled by multiple opponents.

[Blisstake]

In my opinion, they both have some serious flaws.

3.5 - Size bonus are too damn high. Any huge sized or larger enemy pretty much has a guarantee to succeed on a manuever against a medium sized PC, making grappling basically a huge middle finger to fighting types (although there was a cool feat that let you lower their bonus with an AoO if I recall). Also, some of the rules were on the complicated side.

PF - CMD scales so much higher than CMB, making combat manuevers at later levels extremely unlikely to succeed, unless used exclusively on casters. For comparison, CMB adds strength and BAB. CMD adds strength, BAB, dexterity, deflection AC, and dodge AC. There also aren't that many miscellaeous ways to increase that bonus: +4 is usually the highest you'll get from the two feats unless you have a specialized archetype.

[Novawurmson]

Note that PF combat maneuvers get your weapon's enhancement bonus added to the roll if you're using the weapon to perform the maneuver (i.e. if you have a +5 Longsword and make a trip attempt with it, you get a +5 on the roll).

Now add the Dueling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons#TOC-Dueling-FG) weapon quality, which grants a double the weapon's enhancement on CMB when performing maneuvers with it as a luck bonus that stacks with the existing enhancement - so a +5 Dueling Longsword gives a +15 to CMB.

[Blisstake]

I did not know about dueling weapons. Thanks for that.

Keep in mind, however, you only get the enhancement bonus if that weapon has the proper quality. For example, only a weapon with the "Trip" quality gets to add its enhancement bonus to the trip attempt.

Edit: Actually, I can't find this any more. In fact, I can't see where it says anywhere that you get to add your enhancement bonus to CMB.

[Novawurmson]

I did not know about dueling weapons. Thanks for that.

Keep in mind, however, you only get the enhancement bonus if that weapon has the proper quality. For example, only a weapon with the "Trip" quality gets to add its enhancement bonus to the trip attempt.

Edit: Actually, I can't find this any more. In fact, I can't see where it says anywhere that you get to add your enhancement bonus to CMB.

FAQ on the paizo site (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/v5748btpy88yj/faq#v5748eaic9nvd):


Trip Weapons: If you want to make a trip combat maneuver, do you have to use a weapon with the trip special feature?
No. When making a trip combat maneuver, you don't have to use a weapon with the trip special feature--you can use any weapon. For example, you can trip with a longsword or an unarmed strike, even though those weapons don't have the trip special feature.
Note that there is an advantage to using a weapon with the trip special feature (a.k.a. a "trip weapon") when making a trip combat maneuver: if your trip attack fails by 10 or more, you can drop the trip weapon instead of being knocked prone.

On a related note, you don't have to use a weapon with the disarm special feature (a.k.a. a "disarm weapon") when making a disarm combat maneuver--you can use any weapon.

Note: This is a revision of this FAQ entry based on a Paizo blog about combat maneuvers with weapons. The previous version of this FAQ stated that using a trip weapon was the only way you could apply weapon enhancement bonuses, Weapon Focus bonuses, and other such bonuses to the trip combat maneuver roll. The clarification in that blog means any weapon used to trip applies these bonuses when making a trip combat maneuver, so this FAQ was updated to omit the "only trip weapons let you apply these bonuses" limitation.

—Sean K Reynolds, 03/15/11

From the SRD:


When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.

Edit: Just as a related note, most things that penalize AC and attack rolls penalize CMB and CMD, while most things that benefit AC and attack rolls are added to CMB and CMD. The more you know!

[Psyren]

For comparison, CMB adds strength and BAB. CMD adds strength, BAB, dexterity, deflection AC, and dodge AC.

Well, the idea there is that CMD is static, while CMB gets a "bonus" of 1-20 depending on your roll. And there are more ways to increase CMB (at least for specific maneuvers) than CMD - this forces a given martial type to specialize, rather than simply being good at "maneuvers."

[Novawurmson]

Random: I feel like doing math.

Let's take a level 6 Lore Warden Fighter, one of the best CMB optimization choices.

Feats

1
1 (fighter) - Weapon Focus (Pointy Sticks) [+1]
2 (fighter)
2 (bonus) - Combat Expertise
3 - Improved Trip [+2]
4 (fighter)
5
6 (fighter) - Greater Trip [+2]

Maneuver Mastery - +2 CMB/CMD
BAB - +6
Weapon - +1 Dueling Pointy Stick (total of +3 CMB)
Weapon Training (Pointy Sticks +1)

+17 to trip attempts with a pointy stick. Assuming Elite Array, with a 15 in Str and a +1 from leveling, that gives us a +20 to trip at level 6.

A few CR 6 encounters:

Annis Hag - CMD 26
Wood Giant - CMD 27
Rhinoceros, Woolly - CMD 30
Babau Demon - CMD 23

...unfortunately, a significant number of monsters at this level are flying or don't have legs, and are thus immune to trip, period.

There should really be a feat or magic item that does something about that...hmm...

[Morph Bark]

So the CMB and CMD match up in the end, but only if you specialize in Combat Maneuvers? Hmmm.

[Novawurmson]

So the CMB and CMD match up in the end, but only if you specialize in Combat Maneuvers? Hmmm.

Not a bad summary. Note that that Fighter has 4 open feats, though. He could easily pick up Power Attack, Weapon Specialization (Pointy Sticks), and two other feats and be standard at doing damage as well as tripping.

[Morph Bark]

Not a bad summary. Note that that Fighter has 4 open feats, though. He could easily pick up Power Attack, Weapon Specialization (Pointy Sticks), and two other feats and be standard at doing damage as well as tripping.

True, but that is only because he is a Fighter, other classes wouldn't have that luxury.

Do Improved Trip and Greater Improved Trip do anything special in Pathfinder, or could I just use the 3.5 Improved Trip? And, of course, similarly use the 3.5 feats that improve upon Disarm, Sunder, Grapple, Overrun, Bull Rush, etc.

[Larpus]

Depending on the feat, the 3.5 version is better, for example, 3.5 Improved Trip gives you roughly the same bonus as Improved+Greater Trip in PF; differences being that the PF version the bonus is untyped, you get +2 on CMD against trip and the attack on the tripped opponent is considered an AoO (so a Rogue, for example, is better with the 2-feat PF version).

But there are cases, such as Bull Rush, which are better off in PF period as its Greater feat also allows you an AoO, whereas in 3.5 the Improved didn't give you this.

As a thumb-rule: Improved X means you no longer provoke AoOs when you do X and gives you +2 (untyped) bonus to CMB and CMD for X. Greater X gives you a stacking untyped +2 to CMB for X and any foe that is X-ed provokes an AoO from you.

A decent number of them follow that thumb-rule, but there are exceptions (Greater Disarm or Grapple, for example), so double-check before you add any to your build.

EDIT: Also, the whole "be good at a maneuver" thing isn't that bad on non-Fighters, sure they most probably will end up more starved on feats or a bit more one-trick pony-ish, but there are different classes' abilities or archetypes that add unique bonuses to one maneuver or the other.

For example (yeah, they're Monk, bite me, I've been checking Monks lately), the Tetori Monk allows you to do your Grapple checks against bigger foes, while the Maneuver Master Monk can do a "Flurry of Maneuvers" and get a big group tripped (or whatever maneuver they specialize in) in a single full-round as long as they're all within reach.

Bottom line, on the overall, same as 3.5, non-Fighters will most probably have to choose one maneuver and stick to it.

[Novawurmson]

I feel compelled to note that Barbarians can be pretty good at combat maneuvers, especially with Strength Surge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/strength-surge-ex) and a method of rage-cycling. The bonus Str from raging doesn't hurt, either.

[Ravens_cry]

Note that PF combat maneuvers get your weapon's enhancement bonus added to the roll if you're using the weapon to perform the maneuver (i.e. if you have a +5 Longsword and make a trip attempt with it, you get a +5 on the roll).

Now add the Dueling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons#TOC-Dueling-FG) weapon quality, which grants a double the weapon's enhancement on CMB when performing maneuvers with it as a luck bonus that stacks with the existing enhancement - so a +5 Dueling Longsword gives a +15 to CMB.
Generally you want the enhancements rather than the pluses, but for classes that can add their own pluses, like Paladins ,that's a nice property.
Definitely something to look up for my next tripper.

[StreamOfTheSky]

PF combat maneuvers are much more simplified. They are also across the board nerfed (sometimes massively), and much harder to pull off.

I'd stick w/ 3E. Once you learn the rules, they're not so bad. Grapple still is, but PF didn't exactly fully clean that up, either.

[Prime32]

...unfortunately, a significant number of monsters at this level are flying or don't have legs, and are thus immune to trip, period.

There should really be a feat or magic item that does something about that...hmm...In 3.5 that restriction didn't exist, since the term "trip" wasn't supposed to be literal.


Depending on the feat, the 3.5 version is better, for example, 3.5 Improved Trip gives you roughly the same bonus as Improved+Greater Trip in PF; differences being that the PF version the bonus is untyped, you get +2 on CMD against trip and the attack on the tripped opponent is considered an AoO (so a Rogue, for example, is better with the 2-feat PF version).Also note that enemies provoke an AoO for standing up from being tripped - in PF you give that up unless you have Combat Reflexes. And trip is most useful when you make the trip itself as an AoO, so having to spend 2 AoOs cuts into the effectiveness of trip-based characters.
...and you're still comparing 1 feat to 2 feats.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Overview of the changes, with a + for stuff that benefits the respective maneuver(s) and a - for things that nerf them.

All maneuvers:

+Less complex
+One roll instead of touch attack + actual roll (some 3E maneuvers weren't like this)
- Much, MUCH harder to succeed in general, especially later on
- Feats give half the benefit they used to (+2 instead of +4)
- Have to wait for another feat and BAB +6 to get the unique stuff "Improved X" used to grant


Trip:

+Can trip w/ any weapon now
+Greater Trip gives all allies in reach an attack, not just you
-Greater Trip's bonus attack costs an AoO; 3E improved trip's did not
-Creatures now get an unending +2 per leg beyond 2 to trip defense; in 3E it was just a +4
-Many creatures are spelled out as being untrippable right in the stat block
-Kinda tangential, but Monk did not get Greater Trip on his bonus feats list; since Greater Trip is basically 3E's Improved Trip and Monk is too MAD to afford Int 13 and too feat starved for Expertise, Monk effectively cannot get Greater Trip and fails at life.


Grapple:

+Can be used against creatures regardless of size difference! Wish they did this for all of the maneuvers!
+Kinda tangential, but the concentration DCs to cast in a grapple are stupidly hard, effectively makes spellcasting impossible, though teleporting out via items or using freedom of movement still negates grappling just fine.
-Is now a standard action! No more grapple AoOs.
-Must roll a "maintain" check every subsequent round just to remain grappling; as an attack roll, this can autofail on a 1.
-The grappled condition is MUCH less severe than it used to be; creatures can use 1H weapons, do not lose dex to AC, can attack other creatures, remain in your own spaces...the list goes on.


Bull Rush:

+By strict RAW, you do not need to move with the bull rushee to move him more than 5 ft anymore, though this may just be an oversight. Fat chance of ever bull rushing anyone very far anyway...
-You now need 3 feats and BAB +6 to make bull rushed foes provoke AoOs, something an untrained level 1 commoner in 3E could muster.
-The drastically increased difficulty for all combat maneuvers hits bull rush extra hard, due to the fact that you need to win by FIVE more for every additional space you need to push someone back!


Sunder:

+You now have the ability to not totally destroy an item (treasure) and instead give it the "broken" condition, which won't wreck a magic item forever.
-The broken condition is pitifully minor penalties, and not worth the time/effort to inflict on an item.
+/-You sort of maybe can replace attacks with Sunder now. The text says attack action, so opinion is split if you can only sunder as a standard action attack action, or it can replace all attacks like trip and disarm. Of course, the 3E rules compendium re-wrote the rules to allow full attack sunders anyway...


Just to cover some of the maneuvers.