Banning Enchantment

[Spuddles]

Other than Charm Person, Dominate, and Suggestion, am I losing anything useful from the Enchantment school? Something I'm not thinking of, from some obscure source?

Thanks in advance.

[Othniel Edden]

Sleep, Hideous Laughter, Hold Person and Hold Monster, Irrestiable Dance.

[Urpriest]

If you're going to be doing Planar Binding, Lesser Geas is very nice. There are also a few Enchantments that add to Cha checks.

[Gavinfoxx]

Freezing Glance (Frostburn)

Power Word Blind

[Answerer]

Power word: pain perhaps.

But ultimately, Enchantment is probably the easiest school to ban. Far too many things are immune to [Mind-Affecting].

[Spuddles]

If you're going to be doing Planar Binding, Lesser Geas is very nice. There are also a few Enchantments that add to Cha checks.

What do you do with Lesser Geas?


Power word: pain perhaps.

But ultimately, Enchantment is probably the easiest school to ban. Far too many things are immune to [Mind-Affecting].

Not just that, but Will Negates makes the efficiency of an Enchantment slot super lame. I'd rather have one more battlefield control spell or something.

[Answerer]

You affect the creature stuck in the magic circle with a lesser geas and give it a task it cannot complete until it leaves the magic circle. Give a few days; their Charisma will be hurting hard, and the Cha check starts getting pretty easy.

[Zilzmaer]

If you're the unscrupulous sort, you also lose Mindrape, which is very handy against things not immune to mind-affecting effects.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Power word: pain perhaps.

But ultimately, Enchantment is probably the easiest school to ban. Far too many things are immune to [Mind-Affecting].

I'd argue that Evocation is the easiest school to ban, especially with the Orb of X line if you really need to blast.

[Axinian]

I'd argue that Evocation is the easiest school to ban, especially with the Orb of X line if you really need to blast.

I agree with this, but I would say that enchantment is a pretty close second.

[Answerer]

I'd argue that Evocation is the easiest school to ban, especially with the Orb of X line if you really need to blast.
Eh, contingency is so good that delaying it a few levels hurts more than all of Enchantment, IMO. Worse still if you find that you cannot use greater shadow evocation for it.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Eh, contingency is so good that delaying it a few levels hurts more than all of Enchantment, IMO. Worse still if you find that you cannot use greater shadow evocation for it.

That's why there's the Craft Contingent Spell (CAr) feat.

Sleep, Hideous Laughter and Otto's (Dance of the Irresistible nature) are all pretty good spells for their level, usually better than any Evocation spell.

[Hirax]

Enchantment is my go to banned school. You can replace dominate with the mother cyst feat, which gives you superior versions of the spell that bypass mind affecting immunity and allow you to make any living creature your permanent thrall. Planar touchstone (catalogs of enlightenment, renewal, charm, or lust domain) gets you the ability to cast charm person (once you unlock higher order abilities), to qualify for mindbender if that's of interest. Arcane disciple also works, of course. Mindrape is the only thing that I tend to really miss badly.

[Madara]

Its very close, but its usually a safe bet to ban Enchantment. Evocation usually comes first though.

Unless you can get high DCs, or debuff will saves very well.


You can replace dominate with the mother cyst feat, which gives you superior versions of the spell that bypass mind affecting immunity and allow you to make any living creature your permanent thrall.

Almost. Cyst feats have the problem of double saves, since you need to implant the cyst first. In order to do that you use a first level spell, which means the DC is really low at higher levels. Which is why it becomes a two feat investment, Heighten Spell+Mother Cyst

[Answerer]

That's why there's the Craft Contingent Spell (CAr) feat.
Oh god, I'd forced that from my memory.

Yeah, sure, if CCS is in play, go, have fun. I've never met a DM who knew of it and didn't ban it.

[eggs]

I love Enchantment, but it's easy to ban.

Mind control is a powerful effect, but it's basically the one unique effect Enchantment provides.

Learn Voice of the Dragon or lesser planar bind a Formian Taskmaster and you can replicate almost the entire school.

[Hirax]

Its very close, but its usually a safe bet to ban Enchantment. Evocation usually comes first though.

Unless you can get high DCs, or debuff will saves very well.



Almost. Cyst feats have the problem of double saves, since you need to implant the cyst first. In order to do that you use a first level spell, which means the DC is really low at higher levels. Which is why it becomes a two feat investment, Heighten Spell+Mother Cyst

Given how easy it is to become immune to mind affecting effects, it's a sacrifice that's worthwhile even without heighten, though. It's not going to be good in combat, of course, that's the only place where you're really going to miss the legit version of dominate monster. Which can be solved with touchstone-> charm domain.

[ericgrau]

Between immunities and the inneficiency of single target maybe-save effects, it is the easiest school to ban. I think it's more useful with a lot of planning for things like espionage and exploiting your new allies. With that in mind, here's what you're losing without that planning:

0 Daze: Sucky but better than a crossbow at low levels
1 Sleep: Arguably the best spell at level 1 (though many argue for color spray).
2 -
3 Heroism: At 10 min/level an excellent dungeon buff
3 Deep Slumber: Like sleep except it starts with less targets (~2 instead of ~4) and gets obsolete faster.
4 Confusion: While single target, it's more efficient if you can pick a target near your enemies rather than your allies to effectively hurt another foe.
5 Feeblemind: Superb anti-caster spell but that depends if your party even fights them. Since arcane casters aren't wis based the -4 does more than just cancel out their will save. I've even had casters whose fort save was higher than their will save.
6 Mass Suggestion: Good for the reason other enchantments are bad, it's masss.
7 Power Word Blind: Single target but no save and a high hp cap for the level.
8 Irresistible Dance: Single target but it has no save. Though a pain because it's melee. Better for bards.
8 Power Word Stun: Like blind but totally takes the foe out of the fight. HP cap is lower at a higher level which is less tolerable, but still good for taking out other glass cannons similar to yourself.

Hmm that makes the school a lot better than I thought, though still not essential.

Besides contingency evocation has wall of force, resilient sphere and fireball. More limited options are flaming sphere at low level (especially with web), scorching ray at low-mid level and forcecage and delayed blast fireball (especially with some multi-stacking combo) at high level. Any one of these by itself dominates so well it's worth the price of admission. The thing with substitutes is that they all tend to be much, much worse. Other walls have a save, other save-or-lose target a higher save and are higher level and allow SR and immunities are common, other damage isn't area, etc. It's a severely underrated school. It's the victim of internet exaggeration which likes to take the former most popular school and bash it as hard as possible when pushing conjuration. Really I'd put it at #2 (barring polymorph war troll cheese and so on).

The other specialized schools like enchantment are necromancy, illusion and abjuration. They have gems too but are still easy to ban. Of the 3 abjuration is the most situational. In theory it works when you have the right counter, but 90% of the time you don't. Like enchantment it takes crazy planning. And the party cleric can do all the best abjurations and more anyway.

[Answerer]

You missed the Charm and Dominate effects, which are phenomenal in certain situations.

[ericgrau]

Those fall under the "lots of planning" sentence which really requires you to focus on it. In combat 1 target, allowing a save and having many things immune is inefficient.

EDIT: Same goes for other single targets. They aren't the worst thing in the world, but there are so many spells of same level that are almost always better in combat so they make it very easy to ban.

[Answerer]

I dunno about "lots of planning" to use. They are not generally combat spells, though, I'll grant you.

Though if, by some miracle, you have a valid target for Dominate Monster, then that becomes a quite effective combat spell.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Between immunities and the inneficiency of single target maybe-save effects, it is the easiest school to ban. I think it's more useful with a lot of planning for things like espionage and exploiting your new allies. With that in mind, here's what you're losing without that planning:

0 Daze: Sucky but better than a crossbow at low levels
1 Sleep: Arguably the best spell at level 1 (though many argue for color spray).
2 -
3 Heroism: At 10 min/level an excellent dungeon buff
3 Deep Slumber: Like sleep except it starts with less targets (~2 instead of ~4) and gets obsolete faster.
4 Confusion: While single target, it's more efficient if you can pick a target near your enemies rather than your allies to effectively hurt another foe.
5 Feeblemind: Superb anti-caster spell but that depends if your party even fights them. Since arcane casters aren't wis based the -4 does more than just cancel out their will save. I've even had casters whose fort save was higher than their will save.
6 Mass Suggestion: Good for the reason other enchantments are bad, it's masss.
7 Power Word Blind: Single target but no save and a high hp cap for the level.
8 Irresistible Dance: Single target but it has no save. Though a pain because it's melee. Better for bards.
8 Power Word Stun: Like blind but totally takes the foe out of the fight. HP cap is lower at a higher level which is less tolerable, but still good for taking out other glass cannons similar to yourself.

You should toss Hideous Laughter in the 2nd level slot. Very nice for saying 'No' to opposing meat shields.

[Madara]

Is that list skipping stuff on purpose?

Charm Person is a stable social spell, and very solid at level 1
Then you have command, which is also great.

[Tokuhara]

This is coming from a Pathfinder side of the fence, but Enchantment can be REALLY powerful.

Crossblooded Sorcerer 1/Enchanter 19 can be a completely evil with the school.

Crossblooded lets you choose two bloodlines, which grant you powers. In this case, you choose Devil and Fey so you get a +2 to DCs of both Domination and Compulsion subschools of Enchantment. With Arcane Bond on say a Ring or a Staff gives you an additional bonus to your enchantment school DCs. Your DC gets jacked into silly.

[Human Paragon 3]

Did you know Sending is an evocation spell?

It totally is. I consider this spell so essential that I would never ban Evocation.

[Answerer]

I've never actually seen sending get used for anything.

[Madara]

I've never actually seen sending get used for anything.

I've only seen it used at low levels as an excuse to use a 5th-level slot. The casting time is really annoying for what it is. And to keep a whole school for a single spell?

[Piggy Knowles]

If you treat charming and dominating like necromancy, it becomes quite powerful. In other words, don't use it mid-combat as a save or die. Use it after combat, when you have time to effectively debuff the enemy until you are more or less guaranteed to succeed, and then bring the big goon into battle with you. Just because an enemy is immune to mind-affecting doesn't mean it's immune to the greatclub of the ogre you charmed yesterday.

For in-combat uses, though, I prefer Magic Jar.

Anyhow, for a typical wizard build, the only spell I would really, really miss is Feeblemind. I do really like the cool factor of Mass Suggestion, though...

[Spuddles]

I'm trying to determine if conjurer or focused conjurer on an Arcane Heirophant is better.


You affect the creature stuck in the magic circle with a lesser geas and give it a task it cannot complete until it leaves the magic circle. Give a few days; their Charisma will be hurting hard, and the Cha check starts getting pretty easy.

I see. Isn't leaving an Outsider in the trap for a few days kind of risky, though?


If you're the unscrupulous sort, you also lose Mindrape, which is very handy against things not immune to mind-affecting effects.

Mmm, good call. That's pretty high level, though. Not sure if my char would realistically see it in action.


I'd argue that Evocation is the easiest school to ban, especially with the Orb of X line if you really need to blast.

Losing gust of wind and wind wall hurt A LOT if your DM likes to use cloud effects (solid fog, incindiary cloud, cloudkill, freezing fog) or masses of low level archers. I am not sure you can replicate those with shadow evocation.


Oh god, I'd forced that from my memory.

Yeah, sure, if CCS is in play, go, have fun. I've never met a DM who knew of it and didn't ban it.

Yeah, I stay away from Contingency effects because they're crazy good. Losing Contingency hurts, even if used legitimately (no sanctum spell shenanigans, etc.).


I love Enchantment, but it's easy to ban.

Mind control is a powerful effect, but it's basically the one unique effect Enchantment provides.

Learn Voice of the Dragon or lesser planar bind a Formian Taskmaster and you can replicate almost the entire school.

My DMs seem to take mind control personally so it's not that great of a decision, for metagame purposes, at least in my situation.


0 Daze: Sucky but better than a crossbow at low levels
1 Sleep: Arguably the best spell at level 1 (though many argue for color spray).
2 -
3 Heroism: At 10 min/level an excellent dungeon buff
3 Deep Slumber: Like sleep except it starts with less targets (~2 instead of ~4) and gets obsolete faster.
4 Confusion: While single target, it's more efficient if you can pick a target near your enemies rather than your allies to effectively hurt another foe.
5 Feeblemind: Superb anti-caster spell but that depends if your party even fights them. Since arcane casters aren't wis based the -4 does more than just cancel out their will save. I've even had casters whose fort save was higher than their will save.
6 Mass Suggestion: Good for the reason other enchantments are bad, it's masss.
7 Power Word Blind: Single target but no save and a high hp cap for the level.
8 Irresistible Dance: Single target but it has no save. Though a pain because it's melee. Better for bards.
8 Power Word Stun: Like blind but totally takes the foe out of the fight. HP cap is lower at a higher level which is less tolerable, but still good for taking out other glass cannons similar to yourself.


I am familiar with those, and don't think they're worth a whole lot. I was wondering what there was outside of core.

Necromancy has Spectral Hand, and that's superb for landing things like, say, Irresistible Dance.

[Answerer]

I see. Isn't leaving an Outsider in the trap for a few days kind of risky, though?
By RAW, no, not really. It's probably implied that it should be, but any particulars that might happen are more-or-less invented by your DM.

[Golden Ladybug]

Ray of Stupidity is also very, very good. No Save Coma to any and all Animals you face, and hurts opposing Wizards real hard. Good Metamagic Seed too.

Loses it lustre when things start becoming immune to mind affecting, but in general, that hasn't happened by level 3.

But yeah, Enchantment is fairly easy to ban.

[Spuddles]

Ray of Stupidity is also very, very good. No Save Coma to any and all Animals you face, and hurts opposing Wizards real hard. Good Metamagic Seed too.

Loses it lustre when things start becoming immune to mind affecting, but in general, that hasn't happened by level 3.

But yeah, Enchantment is fairly easy to ban.

Oooh, good call on ray of stupidity.

[eggs]

Ray of Dizziness is also pretty cool for its no-save Stagger. There are a bunch of unfortunate tags (Compulsion, Mind effect, Ray, SR:Yes), but on the off-chance run into a vulnerable opponent, it shuts them down.

Some weird tactically-oriented builds can even use it as a buff (Charging becomes a standard action, so Swiftblades can get two full pounces in a round, or Synchronicity/Celerity-users can interrupt other characters' actions with a pounce).

[Ernir]

4 Confusion: While single target, it's more efficient if you can pick a target near your enemies rather than your allies to effectively hurt another foe.

Nitpick: It's multi-target. "All creatures in a 15-ft. radius burst".


Those fall under the "lots of planning" sentence which really requires you to focus on it. In combat 1 target, allowing a save and having many things immune is inefficient.

EDIT: Same goes for other single targets. They aren't the worst thing in the world, but there are so many spells of same level that are almost always better in combat so they make it very easy to ban.
While in general, I agree with you on single-target So(S/L/D)s not being as good as they are usually portrayed 'round these parts, being subjected to Domination is much worse than merely sucking/losing/dying. It's a complete disaster.

The biggest problems with it using it that I see are twofold:
A) Picking the right campaign. If humanoids aren't the enemy, it's just not going to work.
B) Casting time. Requires reliable stealth or protection to use.