Why do people say the TOB Initiators -need- their mental stat?

[INoKnowNames]

Yes, the three initiators actually get some numerical bonuses for what would normally be the primary dumpstats for the Fighter, I can see that such a stat doesn't instantly deserve to be outright neglected, but that the class needs to focus on that stat seems like an off assumption to make. Let's take a closer look:

Warblade gets Intelligence to Reflex Saves, to confirm Critical Hits, to damage against flanked/flatfooted foes, and to resist bullrushes and such.

Swordsage gets Wisdom to Armor Class, and to damage with (2) chosen discipline(s).

Crusader gets Charisma to Will Saves, and 1(/2) per day to Attack Rolls.

Not like the stat -hurts- each initiator, but doesn't seem like it's as important as, say, Constitution and Str/Dex... I don't see too strong a build built upon any of these stats to be honest. At least not without some intense multiclassing that could probably be achieved in other ways.

Yet it has popped up that needing to get that Int/Wis/Cha to good levels on such characters is a very important thing, when it really isn't. BBQ sauce is good, but the fried chicken is the priority...

[tyckspoon]

The only one I can recall people saying really *needs* the mental stat is Swordsage, and it makes sense there- the AC bonus is a significant always-on and usually-relevant benefit, the damage increase on strikes is nice, and the Swordsage disciplines have a higher concentration of mental-state-keyed save-based maneuvers, so Swordsages are more likely to want Wisdom to increase their Save DCs.

[Seatbelt]

I like having skill points, even when those skills almost never get used. That I have a direct combat benefit from my int score on a warblade makes me feel better about putting a +14 in it.

[Cespenar]

Seriously, whoever thought that a stat bonus to confirm rolls is an ability to be interested about, needs a Mountain Tombstone Strike to the head.

[Seerow]

Seriously, whoever thought that a stat bonus to confirm rolls is an ability to be interested about, needs a Mountain Tombstone Strike to the head.

Why? I mean it may not be the most exciting ability, but unless you are hitting on a 2, getting a bonus to crit confirms is always a net positive.

[HunterOfJello]

Swordsages are the ones that mainly need their Wisdom to be boosted. They can avoid it, but it really helps a lot. As mentioned above, they get an AC boost (which is always nice) and some bonus damage from it. However, the main use for the wisdom is boosting the DCs for some of their swordsage abilities. You can skip over the abilities that require saves, but some of them are pretty good so they're worth grabbing.


As far as the crusader and warblade go, having a decent number in their appropriate stat gives you some worthwhile boosts and is generally a good idea. If you have a 10 Int Warblade or 10 Cha Crusader, you won't be playing a horrible character, but you'll be sitting around wishing your stats were higher.

Overall, if you mainly focus on Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, and the single applicable mental stat, you'll end up having a nicely rounded out character. Indomitable Soul allows a Crusader to ignore Wisdom and focus on Cha for will saves. Warblade has a similar ability for Reflex saves (although dex is nice for them too).


The Warblade's Battle ardor ability is also pretty sweet, although often underrated. I assure you, if you start using a weapon the crits often, you will be very happy for a nice extra bonus on your crit confirmation roll.

[avr]

It's nice having some mental ability above 10, and these minor boosts give a rationale to do so.

You don't need to focus on them, more likely you're putting your third highest ability on to whichever stat you find useful. Possibly second for a swordsage. If you're reading more into it that, then yes someone has overstated the case to you.

[killianh]

it makes sense for swordsage like it does for ninja and monk for the AC. With warblade there are quite a few bonuses there with INT, plus some of the really nice manoeuvres need skills to pull off so the extra points don't hurt either. For crusader its more of a flavour thing I find. Crusader needs it like a paladin needs it; you'll get along without it, but it fits better if you have it. Whenever asking about why any ToB class does anything think of this first:

Crusader=paladin done right
Swordsage=monk done right
Warblade=fighter done right

[Knaight]

With a Warblade, I'd note that there is the potiential to need a fair few skills at a reasonably high level for manuever purposes, particularly for Warblades that dabble in more schools. If you absolutely need four skills just to support maneuvers, then taking low intelligence is a bad idea, and high intelligence gains a significant amount of value.

[Cespenar]

Why? I mean it may not be the most exciting ability, but unless you are hitting on a 2, getting a bonus to crit confirms is always a net positive.

It's a very bland and unimportant "positive". Only helps certain crit-fisher builds, and that's not a good design choice in my book.

[Feralventas]

It should be noted that many maneuvers that have actual DC's base them off of a Mental stat rather than a physical one, especially Desert Wind, Shadow Hand, and Devoted Soul schools; two of those are Swordsage-only schools, while the other is Crusader only, but it does put some emphasis on their mental scores as well as their physical ones if they want to use the more supernatural maneuvers. Setting sun, I believe, has some DCs that scale likewise, (Line attacks with hurled foes).

Warblade doesn't Need Int, but half of it's class features are pointless without it.

[Socratov]

Well, sure, they don't need it, but then that would mean you are actually playing a fighter with slightly more fancy attacks. For the warblade Int is actually valuable, you'll get skills, and you can actually make a dritfisher build that works (and you can do really nice things with critical hits as bonuses on weapons, whether efficient or not, it is an option). Besides it's indeed nice to boost DC's so your nasty stuff does even more nasty then without the boost in DC's.

[sonofzeal]

Honestly, I've rarely heard it as a necessity, and far more often as the opposite - something nice to pick up if you can, but by no means a requirement.