A Fork in the Road: Multiclassing for a SwordSage

[Canis Wolfsong]

I am currently playing a level seven swordsage and after these seven levels I feel inept, it seems I am not suited for the striker role as I often find myself face down in a pool of my own blood when i try mixing it up and doing what a striker does; namely flank. I have 10 STR, 16 DEX, 10 CON, 18 INT, 16 WIS, and 8 CHA. I have focused on two weapon fighting and focusing on fast deadly attacks, ie maxing initiative with improved initiative and quick draw, I have the track feat for free, and a updated dodge feat that is actually quite good. I have contemplated going rogue or even ranger but non of it seemed to fit, I know the monk would be nice but too much over lap and too feat starved to up Unarmed Damage. I had also thought of taking a prestige class but the for the class i want, the Eternal Blade I would not be able to get the capstone ability for. So I humbly submit to Playground my conundrum and ask for you advise. And just so everyone knows I have looked at just about every Handbook for the Swordsage and have not found a good answer. So throw some ideas my way guys, thanks in advance to all contributors.

[Flickerdart]

If you have the feats for it, a 1 level dip into Shiba Protector (Oriental Adventures) will give you WIS to attack and damage. Which is nice.

Why do you have 18 Intelligence?

[Greyfeld85]

First and foremost, your stat array is wrong. You don't need an 18 in Int, and you don't have a positive Strength modifier, which means your attack rolls and damage are going to suffer.

But going even further than that, you should have the Weapon Finesse (and possibly Shadow Blade) feat, pulling back your MAD a bit. Your resulting ability array should look more like this:

10 STR, 18 DEX, 16 CON, 10 INT, 16 WIS, and 8 CHA

Unfortunately, your stats are locked in stone, so there's nothing that can be done about that. Though you need to bug your GM about getting a +CON item so that you don't have all the durability of a wet paper bag.

Ask your DM if he'll allow you to retrain your feats, because you desperately need the Adaptive Style feat, since the swordsage's maneuver recovery method blows. You'll also need to pick up the Two-Weapon Fighting feat if you're going to actually... you know... fight with two weapon.

And again, Weapon Finesse. I can't stress that enough. If your DM won't let you retrain your feats, then dip two levels of Fighter for the bonus feats.

[Darrin]

I am currently playing a level seven swordsage and after these seven levels I feel inept, it seems I am not suited for the striker role as I often find myself face down in a pool of my own blood


What books are available? Could you give is a clearer picture of your selected Feats and Maneuvers?

Sounds to me like you've got a "Candy Store Syndrome" going on with your feats. While Improved Initiative is generally a good pick, a Swordsage usually doesn't have room for it. Quickdraw can be replicated with a couple augment crystals from the MIC. And while an improved Dodge might be better than the original, it still does absolutely nothing to help you flank or dish out more damage.

Is your DM open to retraining or psychic reformation?

[Lateral]

I often find myself face down in a pool of my own blood

10 CON

That's your problem, right there. You don't need another class nearly so much as you need HP- you may have a d8 hit die, but without a decent CON your hit points will still be crap. At the very least, invest in a +2 Amulet of Health.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You, sir, need a serious con boost. See if you can get your DM to let you retrain your ability scores on your next level up, or try getting him to drop a manual of +x to con. Otherwise start looking for a reliable way to get (greater) bear's endurance, 'till you can get an amulet of good health +4 (+6).

[Canis Wolfsong]

Sorry everyone, I wasnt paying attention I do have weapon finesse AND shadow blade. The reason I have a high INT is that I was a Swordsage3/Beguiler3/ Shrouded Ambusher2. However one implosion better and having the source of my magic carved out of me I returned to the land of the living as a LV7 Swordsage. Any book is good as long as we avoid cheese, I am also including a complete snap shot of my character.

LV 7 Swordsage
Banned: Desert wind and Stone Dragon
Custom dicipline: Demented One's Oncomming storm
Feats: TWF, modded Dodge, Weapon focus (discipline focus),Quick Draw, Improved Init, shadow blade
Stats: STR 10, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 18, Wis 16, Cha 8
Gear: 2 axiomatic +1 short sword, +1 fire resistance chain shirt, potion of Bulls Str, Bark skin, 2 cure mod, +3 shocking spear
Stances: Pearl of Black Doubt, Assasins Stance, Step on the wind
Maneuvers:Counter Charge ,Skillful Parry ,Shadow Blade, Unseen Hand, Sudden Strike,Saphire Nightmare Blade,Mighty Throw, Cloak of Deception,Shadow Jaunt,Lightning Slash,Mind Over Body,Crimson Slash.
HP:56

[kitcik]

First and foremost, your stat array is wrong. You don't need an 18 in Int, and you don't have a positive Strength modifier, which means your attack rolls and damage are going to suffer.

But going even further than that, you should have the Weapon Finesse (and possibly Shadow Blade) feat, pulling back your MAD a bit. Your resulting ability array should look more like this:

10 STR, 18 DEX, 16 CON, 10 INT, 16 WIS, and 8 CHA

Unfortunately, your stats are locked in stone, so there's nothing that can be done about that. Though you need to bug your GM about getting a +CON item so that you don't have all the durability of a wet paper bag.

Ask your DM if he'll allow you to retrain your feats, because you desperately need the Adaptive Style feat, since the swordsage's maneuver recovery method blows. You'll also need to pick up the Two-Weapon Fighting feat if you're going to actually... you know... fight with two weapon.

And again, Weapon Finesse. I can't stress that enough. If your DM won't let you retrain your feats, then dip two levels of Fighter for the bonus feats.

YES YES YES

But if you can't retrain / adjust stats, try some warblade levels. Take some advantage of the high Int and get d12 HP.

[Canis Wolfsong]

I should to clarify one thing, Warblades in our campaign setting were made a regional class, they are in the far North/East while we are currently in the South/West. I could look for an ex Warblade though it is rare to seem them away from their land as they flavored as the elite fighting force of a certain country.

[Flickerdart]

Wait, so your DM took away half of your build concept but isn't letting you retrain stats? That's, uh...that's definitely a thing.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Your character was a multiclass skillful/caster, died, and got brought back as not-a-caster. Now in trying to find another way to contribute to the party (striker), you're finding he's extremely ill-equipped to the task. I find this extremely unfair on the part of your DM, especially the explanation on how your spellcasting ability was lost. Int-based spellcasting is knowledge your character has about weaving spells from the magic that can be found everywhere, whereas Cha-based casting is more of an ability that stems from magic welling up from within the character. It would be no easier to remove your Beguiler spellcasting than it would be to remove your Swordsage maneuvers and stances, both are things your character has learned to do and both come from knowledge and practice.

This is definitely a situation that calls for retraining of something. Check out PH2 p196-198, you can retrain eight points of Int across your Dex/Con scores, or you can retrain some of those Swordsage levels back into Beguiler and Shrouded Ambusher.

Another alternative would be to switch some Swordsage levels to Ardent, still put Int into Dex/Con, use Substitute Powers (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) to get some better power choices, switch a feat to Practiced Manifester, and jump into Psychic Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) for the Mind Cripple ability. In that case you'll also want Psicrystal Affinity and the powers Share Pain and Vigor. Use Share Pain on the Psycrystal every day, its Hardness will prevent eight damage per attack that it would take, so you'll be taking half damage from all sources. Keep the psicrystal out of line of sight/effect so it can't be directly targeted or affected by area effects. When you manifest Vigor you can share it with the psicrystal, giving yourself a considerable HP cushion.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yeah, the red flags here ar so big they block out the sun. Your best bet might be to just start getting reckless after explaining to the party that you don't want to be raised. Prep a new character, get DM approval for it, and either kill off or retire your swordsage.

[Canis Wolfsong]

The thing about the Beguiler is that although they use INT for DCs and bonus spells they are just like Sorcerer where they are spontaneous casters, when the source of my magic THE elven Antichrist who's spirit chose me to piggy back on was cast out by the god that met me at he shores of the after life he took all his tasty tasty arcane power with him. The elven spirit was cast into the void and there it hopefully remains, the DM reasoned that i would just be a swordsage cause the abilities I had received from the spirit ie the casting was unnatural and was not something I was meant to have. So that is the pickle, I want to go into a class that will use at least some of my existing stuff, but does seem out of the blue where I start manifesting psionics or other arcane casting (though I really appreciate the psychic assassin suggestion). Essentially the thing that allows people to cast, in campaign its called the magic circuit was ripped out of me and I have only the smallest aptitude for magic,mostly UMD from when i was a Beguiler. Story wise this means I cannot ever have levels in anything with a caster level.

[Flickerdart]

Yeah...in that case, that Int won't take you very far, since Factotums (the kings of using Intelligence) have SLAs. The best you could do is a dip into Monk with the Carmendine Monk feat, then three levels of Swashbuckler for INT to damage, and then crying yourself to sleep every day you manage to survive as a melee character with a caster's stat spread.

[nedz]

Retire your character and create a new one.
Does your DM not like Beguilers ?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The thing about the Beguiler is that although they use INT for DCs and bonus spells they are just like Sorcerer where they are spontaneous casters, when the source of my magic THE elven Antichrist who's spirit chose me to piggy back on was cast out by the god that met me at he shores of the after life he took all his tasty tasty arcane power with him. The elven spirit was cast into the void and there it hopefully remains, the DM reasoned that i would just be a swordsage cause the abilities I had received from the spirit ie the casting was unnatural and was not something I was meant to have. So that is the pickle, I want to go into a class that will use at least some of my existing stuff, but does seem out of the blue where I start manifesting psionics or other arcane casting (though I really appreciate the psychic assassin suggestion). Essentially the thing that allows people to cast, in campaign its called the magic circuit was ripped out of me and I have only the smallest aptitude for magic,mostly UMD from when i was a Beguiler. Story wise this means I cannot ever have levels in anything with a caster level.

Prepared versus spontaneous casting is completely irrelevant. If your governing stat is Charisma, the spellcasting capability is inborn or otherwise acquired. If your governing stat is Intelligence, the spellcasting capability is through knowledge, understanding, and practice. The elven spirit likely allowed it to tap into its knowledge of the arcane, but that's not necessarily gone now that the spirit has left. Depending on how long it was with you, your character probably learned enough about spellcasting from it to no longer depend on its presence. The level loss due to being raised explains the loss of knowledge when it departed, and your character should stay a Swordsage 3/ Beguiler 3/ Shrouded Ambusher 1.

[Roguenewb]

You sir are in a bad place. My recommendation? Play a bad character. Start role playing how out of sorts you feel (like ending up in a pool of blood every fight), and keep pushing through that feeling until the DM caves and lets you retrain, or just die and everyone can say "He's finally at peace again", and roll something that works.

[HunterColt22]

Seriously, that dm seems to be on a power trip. Not to continue the bashing but, again learned versus innate magic wise it was odd of him to do. Second he knew your character and how it functioned since you got lvl 7 clearly, he either didn't like it or didn't know how to handle it since you are now gimped out of your build which is never, ever a thing a dm should do since he is essentially killing your fun. :l My current dm when he found out how I was using a warlock said no go, but instead of just ripping that part out of the entire process he let me ret-con those two levels I had already taken into something else I could use and play with still and still have fun.

Also you should find out why Stone and Desert wind are banned. Desert wind is not the best so its an odd choice to get rid of, and Stone Dragon is again odd since all the maneuvers require you be in contact with the ground to even use. Also for shadowhand, get blood letting strike, your normal damage plus con damage of 4 with a fort save based off of your character level plus wis mod, Save halves the con damage but not your normal damage. Great skill particularly for you.

Also I would rp the ache to get your magic "circuit" back and spend the rest of the campaign doing nothing else until you find and retrieve it. What he did, while maybe interesting story wise, was a very brash and seemingly rude thing to do. It's one thing to throw a curve ball, its another to completely mangle a character concept someone has worked and built from the ground up as a token of saying "Oh I feel bad for killing you." :smallannoyed:

[ThiagoMartell]

Guys, bad things happen to characters. That's part of D&D. What we have here is a player that is trying to find some up to overcome what happened to his character... and you guys are telling him his DM is bad? If he is asking here, isn't it likely his DM is going to allow him to change stuff? And would your intelligent character suddenly become dumb just because he can't use magic anymore?! :smallconfused:

I think the Warblade dip is the best option. Instead of fighting with magic, you fight intelligently. Faerie Mysteries Initiate is an option to increase your hit points.

[HunterColt22]

Guys, bad things happen to characters. That's part of D&D. What we have here is a player that is trying to find some up to overcome what happened to his character... and you guys are telling him his DM is bad? If he is asking here, isn't it likely his DM is going to allow him to change stuff? And would your intelligent character suddenly become dumb just because he can't use magic anymore?! :smallconfused:

I think the Warblade dip is the best option. Instead of fighting with magic, you fight intelligently. Faerie Mysteries Initiate is an option to increase your hit points.

There is a subtle difference between telling him his dm is bad, and the fact that the dm made a poor choice in our minds. Again these are our opinions. With the limited knowledge we have of the current situation, such as has this happened to another pc or npc before, did the dm warn them this might happen, or even give a hint that was possible etc., all we can go off of is what is said by him and our own experiences with situations like this. I also agree if the OP wants to instead train martially more, go with the war blade, that high int will make his reflex saves through the roof when not denied dex and the extra damage will help him be more effective in combat along with the d12. If the OP does go the warblade rout he should also go another two levels of SS so he can snag evasion.

[eggs]

You say you're ruling out Monk for being too feat-strapped, but that's usually why you dip Monk - it gets feats as quickly as Feat Rogue/Fighter/PsyWar, but packs a bunch of goodies along with them.

I'd dip Sleeping Tiger Monk 1 for Weapon Finesse and Decisive Strike/Flurry; possibly ST Monk 2 for Spell Reflection/Invisible Fist and Improved Initiative (retraining the first instance of II for Able Learner, provided you read AL as a full refresh).

[Canis Wolfsong]

As much as i would love to go monk, as not only is it one of my favorite classes but also that my DM has fixed the monk to do its job and do it well. The thing is i have a dream monk build that requires a synergy of feats that help make him truly terrifying on the battle field and with my current smattering of feat i fear i would be a meddling monk at best, and the graveyards are filled with meddling monks. After speaking with my DM we have arrived at an understanding that I would like to pursue one of two classes: the warblade and the factotum. If he cannot provide me a tutor to pass on the knowledge i would need to be a warblade i can take my next level in factotum and its SLAs would be treated as more extraordinary abilities versus spells, the agreement being i focus my "spells" on enhancing stats and healing myself and what not. So that is where I am, if you have further suggestions please give me as many as you can. And for all those interested to know what this build will eventually be used to overcome check out my other thread "Mortal Combat: Overcoming a Higher LV NPC".

[nedz]

Maybe your character could start studying magic in order to understand why he lost it ? This could result in taking a few levels of Wizard.