Need help with a commander build

[dantiesilva]

So I am making a dragon rider elf ( not the PRC though it would be nice to have) that is good at powering up all allies around him and demoralizing them, whether through his dragon or himself, all at the same time.

Race is elf and starting stats are
18Str
20Dex
16Con
18Int
18Wis
18Cha

The level cap i want to keep is around level 20-25 max. And there is one more thing. For every level you gain you aslo gain one in either psion, psinoic warrior, soulknife, or wilder. Which ever you choose at first level is the one that you have to stick with and can not be changed. Not even to PRC out of. in the end you should end up with the build on one side and 20-25 whichever level you end at on the other

[dantiesilva]

I was thinking of using some of these classes because they seem to fit the theme
cavalier ( from PF)
Marshal
Dragonfire adapt
Dragonlord
Crusader because of the white raven maneuvers. Anyone have ideas for a build?

[HunterColt22]

Crusader is more "I am a giant wall" Than a buff master. Dragon lord and Marshal are good starts. I would replace wardblade with crusader though, more damage honestly. :l

[dantiesilva]

Thats the part i hate about making builds. I know I only want marshal to level 2.
Warblade works on Int, vs. The cha build so far, but at the same time if you take it to level 7 you get massive damage as you pointed out. I was also thinking of throwing in one level of cleric for the two domains. Taking nobility and community. As well as battle priest for the war domain.

I can see marshal2/ Cleric 1/Dragonlordx/ Legendary commanderx/warblade x/Psion 20

But that take out the actual dragon rider class. Which ain't a large problem because in the campaign dragons and elves have a kind of pact together so even the lowest elf has a form of a dragon pet.

[metabolicjosh]

If you Play a Sorcerer you have access to all spell Schools.
just use Reach Spell, Chain Spell and extend, There is a feat that lets you use extend more than once. It might be home brew but it seems fair.

Now you have all the soldiers on you side get really really scary over about 6 turns. I did this when i was defending my Mage's College.

[WeeFreeMen]

Are you opposed to playing a Bard?
Bard/Warblade with Dragon Fire Inspiration adds ALOT of "Buff" and Utility to your allies and yourself. Plus throwing fistfuls of D6's is always fun.
Psion [Telepath] will allow you to mind-link your allies and give further buffs.
Or you can go Psionic Warror for more combat savy utility.

Unless you want to make premier use of the Dragon then there isn't much point in classing into it.

That being said. Dragons are freaking awesome and should be used.
Dragon Shaman with Meta-breath feats allow you to be tanky, throw CC, and support allies through auras. This however is a "weak" choice in high level play.

My vote would be on
Marshal/Bard/Warblade | Psion

or

Crusader/Cavilier/DragonLord | Psionic War

[dantiesilva]

If its homebrew sadly can not use it. I like to be able to find everything on a moments notice so not even homebrew classes are allowed.

And no I am not against playing a bard. And wow both of them builds actually look really good.

[dantiesilva]

What about feats?

[HunterColt22]

Same book that Dragon lord, which is dragon magic I think if I am remembering right, is in gives feats that net you Draconic Auras which in turn, allow more boosting of allies. If you get the dragon touched feat if you take the aura feats, the dragonblood subtype given to you by dragontouched will add a bigger effect area to the draconic auras you now emit.

[dantiesilva]

Are they an unnamed bonus? Because it would be cool for their dragon mounts to have them as well.

[Tim Proctor]

For this I would suggest Marshal 2/Knight 4/Legendary Leader 5/Cavalier 10/Exemplar 1/Knight 3

If your DM is nice get the Improved Cohort and use that to build your Druid/Master of Many Forms/Dragon Mount Cohort.

Go with an Orbital Charger and just have fun.

[dantiesilva]

But theirs one problem with your second build. I don't see where it buffs all its allies in it. I know how powerful it is, but for a leader build wouldn't work. Your first one would though. Level 25 ok. And I think this is the only tie i will ever say this but exemplar actually works well for the build.

[Tim Proctor]

But theirs one problem with your second build. I don't see where it buffs all its allies in it. I know how powerful it is, but for a leader build wouldn't work. Your first one would though. Level 25 ok. And I think this is the only tie i will ever say this but exemplar actually works well for the build.

Well with Marshal you'll have a minor and a major aura, so your group will get +5 to Initiative while makes a big difference. As well as the +1 attack or AC from the major aura. You also get the Legendary Leader commander auras I'd suggest the +2 attack when they move 10ft (helps you when charging) as well as Double-strike Commander (gotta love natural 20s). You get a huge boost to morale with the Free Rallying. But mostly you're using Knights Challenge to make them not focus your Casters, using Goad to ensure they don't focus your caster, and face melting theirs.

[dantiesilva]

Wow add in psionic weapon and greater psionic weapon and thats deadly. Should i also take deep impact to make it go straight to touch AC?

[metabolicjosh]

There are many good ways to use this AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA up there

[Tim Proctor]

If you want, I'd stay away from Psionics personally (I think that would be the straw that would break the camels' back, Leadership, Orbital Charger, and Psionics), it seems a bit much.

You actually want to trade out the Knight Levels for Fighter Levels so you get 4 feats from them, plus 1 from Human and 9 from levels, so 14 feats.

Feat wise here is what I would suggest:
Monkey Grip Wield a Large Lance
Power Attack @ lvl 25 - this is how much?
Leap Attack (because you can jump while flying) @ lvl 25
Spirited Charge x3 damage with your lance
Diving Charge +3d6
Powerful Charge --
Greater Powerful Charge +2d6
Shock Trooper (Use Power Attack from AC)
Improved Initiative --
Dire Charge make an extra full attack when you charge during the first turn, and don't forget your Power Attack bonus counts for all of these hits too.
Leadership
Improved Cohort So your cohort is 1 level below you
+2 more

You're going to want a Lance of Warning for the +5 initiative, with Improved Initiative +4, Motivate: Dexterity for +5 plus your Dex and then other items you should be about +20 and you should just instagib their main guy.

For your Mount this is what I'd go with.
Druid 5/Master of Many Forms 10/Warshaper 5
For your Mount (oh an be a ****, give him vow of poverty so he gives you all the NPC starting gold for a lvl 24 npc)
Improved Initiative
Bestial Charge - Get a full attack at the end of the charge
Dire Charge - Get another Full attack at the end of the charge on the first turn
Lion's Pounce - Get another full attack at the end of the charge
Manyattack - For all your additional natural weapons (They'll stay for 15 hours and it only take 6 sec to grow 2 natural weapons, so you're looking at 20 a minute, so for 5 minutes you grow spiked tentacles and have 100 of them).

[dantiesilva]

As the OP says elf is race. Cant be changed. As i am the DM and it is a person who rules the empire. As for the fighter dip...I see maybe a two level dip, but not get rid of knight for it. two levels grants you two feats, which in most cases should be enough.

As for the mount I'm not exactly sure what you are suggesting. A elf turning into a dragon? If so then that defeats the purpose of a dragon rider. It would be an elf rider.

[Tim Proctor]

Yeah sorry wasn't thinking about race and the op, just thinking about feats. Total mind slip, but you got feats to burn.

You can make the Dragon a druid or ranger (I'd go with ranger) because if you grab the wildshape variant you also get more movement which is important for charging. Lion's Pounce and Bestial Charge require the wildshape ability. You'd lose Dire Charge (which is the worst of them) cause it's an Epic feat, but getting 2 Full-Attacks with all of the extra attacks is great, especially with a Huge or Large Dragon. Draconomicon 139 has the rules for Dragon Cohorts, and Dragon player characters.

[dantiesilva]

Looks like I need to reread the book. I know you can add classes to them but you know have a dragon large enough to be ridden as well as with the levels will be kind of hard. Unless I custom build it using the rules in the MM. And well custom building 10 or so dragons saying there are 10 main people of the riders, yeah...that may take to long.

[dantiesilva]

So I just did level one of Tim Proctor build and this is what it looks like so far. Though I am not doing items yet because I would like to save that for last, simply because their is not a single source that has every item written down in it and I am trying to create one.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=424816

What is everyone's option so far? Should I have taken a different disciple? Should I have taken Psionic warrior. Anything.

[dantiesilva]

And can you gain the auras of a dragon shaman through feat selection?

[dantiesilva]

And once again updated now has legendary comander.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=424816

[Tim Proctor]

You really should bump up the Legendary Leader to 5, you get +1 on all your saves, and additional Commander Aura, and it increases your natural leader level to 5. The Commander Aura's are on pg 75 of the HoB, I think the Doublestrike Commander and the Elf Commander (all Elves including self get +2 on all the saves) are the best.

[dantiesilva]

Thats all i have gotten so far lol. I am doing the build you made. completely. And i was thinking elf and steadfast. You get the saves and AC increase.

[Tim Proctor]

Thats all i have gotten so far lol. I am doing the build you made. completely. And i was thinking elf and steadfast. You get the saves and AC increase.

Elf requires you to be Chaotic Good, and Steadfast requires you to be Lawful Good.

[dantiesilva]

ahh. Only read benefits now i see why you chose those two. In that case i agree with your judgement call.

[dantiesilva]

and while reading this i came into a problem. Are we having the Cavlier class from PF or the PRC? If the later I really need to change my feat selection.

[dantiesilva]

Well this is the build I was given to make and think it looks good. But still have three free feats open. If their are any feats that grant auras that are constantly in effect that would be nice to have. Keep in mind that their is not a single magic item, or even a single item attached to this creature so suggestions are always allowed on that. If their are no feats that give people buffs around me then I guess things that help me with my attack damage output would be the next best thing. Debuffs are good to.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=424816

[Tim Proctor]

Forget the Inspirational Leadership, you have To Hell and Back Legendary Leader lvl 5- making them immune to fear effects and morale effects, plus you Rally as a free action. I would take Improved Cohort.

Draconic Aura, ( Dragon Magic, p. 16) gives you an additional Major Marshal Aura. Which should increase with level because I believe that Dragon Touched gives you the Dragonblood subtype.


A key point is that most of these Aura's have a range of 60ft and in a giant Aerial battle on Dragon back, most people aren't going to be in range of them.

For Equipment I'd look at the Five Virtues MiC 195, Regalia of the Hero MiC 207.

[dantiesilva]

I do not believe that was on the list of feats I could take for bonus feats.

Dragon touched dose do that but at the same time you can only have minor and 1 major aura up at a time when it comes to effects that are based of the marshal so all I would be doing is swapping back and forth thus really not getting a use of either one unlike with the command auras which work differently and can have more than one active at a time. Thats why I was thinking of paladin but that range is only 30ft until you become epic, but their are much better feats for you at epic levels then powering up small abilities, but would also make the cavalier not a dead class for one of its key abilities. If I took the cavalier class from Pf for one level instead of the last level of knight I could work in the mount because it gains it on and first level as well as the challenge and the abilities of the order of the dragon.

And In the campaign that I am running everyone is starting of at level one, and the elves are neutral at this point and time. Humans just came to the world and their is only 500 of them their. So their wont be many Aerial battles early on, maybe latter. But the leader is mostly made just for that. To be a leader and be with his troops. And saying each squad of 12 has a marshal in it with paladin levels. A cleric with domains nobility and community. Everyone makes everyone more powerful.

And what does MiC stand for? Minutares hand book or Magic item comp.

[Tim Proctor]

Magic Item Compendium.

I've always considered a Marshal Aura separate from a Draconic Aura or a Mythic Exemplar Aura even though you can choose from the list. I think of it like a Sorcerer spell/Wizard spell, if you have access to both they come into effect separately. I may be wrong on that, but that is my interpretation.

Yeah the Legendary Leader gives you access to any of the Leaderhip feats, and Improved Cohort is one of them.

[dantiesilva]

I don't believe it works that way because it is basically giving the marshal another aura, if it was from another class then yes they could all be in effect at the same time. Though saying I am the DM I guess I can change that rule for my world.

And in that case I will change the feat.

[Tim Proctor]

You are right, from reading Dragon Magic pg 86 it says:

Marshal
The marshal (a class presented in Miniatures Handbook) can
learn any of the draconic auras presented here in place of
a major aura. The bonus granted by a draconic aura equals
the bonus normally granted by the marshal's major aura (+1
at 2nd level, +2 at 7th level, +3 at 14th level, and +4 at 20th
level), and otherwise follows all the normal rules for the
marshal's auras (including range, eligible targets, and when
it ceases functioning). It is also considered a draconic aura
for all effects that apply to such auras, such as the Double
Draconic Aura feat (see page 16).

However, that also tells you what feat you need to get in order to get that feat that extra aura.

[dantiesilva]

Thanks one down two ta go

[Mithril Leaf]

If Dragon is allowed, Heartfire Fanner can make you most of a bard. If you want a build that would fill a single side quite well there is the Death Metal Bard (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6497.0) assuming Heartfire Fanner is allowed.

[dantiesilva]

no its not because i own a total o zero of them but it does look interesting for a build.

[dantiesilva]

And so basically any dragon I make has to start of at level 6-13 for a wyrmling...wow that does not give you much to work with.