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Sir_Gabes
2012-07-18, 02:52 AM
Hi!

I'm new to this forum. I have lurked here for a little while, but I have come to the conclusion it's worth joining. I'm not great at introducing myself so I will just get into it.

I am changing the names of anyone in this story for privacy reasons.

I have a large group. (at least compared to some.) There are 8 players on our table. Aaron is the DM, he is frustrating at times, but proved himself as a DM and ultimately led to me falling in love with RPGs, when I was a wee 16 year old. The group is made up mostly by his family. Kate his sister, Danielle his wife and Tim his 15 year old son. The other half are me, my friends and my wife. Robert, Liam and Emily.

A while back Aaron's games started to decline and we ended up just creating new characters every session. Either for different systems or the same system. Needless to say it was stressful. I made a deal that I would try running a game in order to help him get it together. We would run on alternate weeks.

My first session was a pirate themed Dungeons and Dragons4th edition. Aaron took the cursed position of captain on the Scarlet Mistress. The group dealt with storms, crew morale, the former owner's questionable trade (ahem, slavery) and having to survive on a island invested with a savage group of goblins. It was a fun game and I let Aaron take the reigns a little as he earned it. The rest of the group enjoyed it as well. Tim played a hilariously salty, mean spirited Bosun.

This game was a great learning experience. I learnt I was a DM who preferred to focus on player interactions and character backgrounds as opposed to focusing on my own story. (though it was important as well.)

This game was short compared to later games. But, I concluded the story and let the players have a taste of my style.

My second game I ran WoD: VtR. This was how I introduced my then girlfriend into the world of RPGs. She loved my storyline that focused on the freedom of living in a concrete playground. However, Aaron got to be disruptive in this game. His character was horrendously optimized for combat and in circumstances that would not normally call for combat he would force it on me. Diving through a sky light and ripping off NPC arms for no justified reason. My mistake as a DM was not punishing him properly. His character fell into political disfavor and he was not a popular guy. However, that helped him play the role of combat wombat further. His willingness to charge blindly into battle lead him into becoming the vessel of a blood god.*I learnt I liked lethal games with elements of realism

My latest game is a Star Wars saga edition game that is going exceptionally well. (lasting around 6 months) It is based on the Old Republic Era. His character Anda a Jedi (the only force sensitive character) is annoying as well. She sat on a throne haunted by a Sith spirit and agreed to be corrupted with the dark-side. *Problem is, he role played the dark-side poorly and the second he found out the throne had gained an element of power over him he wanted redemption all of a sudden. I gave it to him, but he would have to sacrifice his connection to the force and be prematurely aged. In order to repair the connection of some mindless sith husks that devoured the force. This act made the creatures whole again. Enabling them to go back to their lives. Anda had to go to a Jedi temple to bridge her lost connection. However when she returned to the game I imposed age penalties. I did not allow her the bonus either. My reason being that she can't get +2 wisdom, intelligence and charisma for being prematurely aged. Because, that comes with years of experience. I did however put a plot into the story that enable Anda to find a machine that will repair her body. Aaron whinged and complained saying his character was too gimped now. I explained to Aaron my game wasn't solely about stats and mechanics. I also explained that I he had fulfilled 2 of his destinies and that his character was quite exceptional without the -2 on all his physical attributes.*

Did I do something wrong?*

Kholai
2012-07-18, 04:10 AM
How the player plays their character is entirely up to them, though unfortunate.

It is your duty as a DM to provide them this the consequences for those actions in a fair and consistent manner to the game world.

So no, you didn't do anything wrong - Aaron needs to realise that actions have consequences, and physical wasting is one minor consequence to allowing yourself to be possessed by a diabolical artifiact of doom. You've even gone out of your way to open up ways to solve these consequences, which I'm sure some would say was molly-coddling.

Ultimately I believe the first and foremost thing to make do is make sure that he realises his actions will have consequences too, and that not all of those consequences are easily remedied. When he complains about those consequences, he's only complaining about the results of his own actions.

I take it from your story that he's not the typical example within your group as a whole?

Sir_Gabes
2012-07-18, 05:09 AM
Well, the rest of the group have small problems.

Both Emily and Kate tune out easily and have conversation amongst themselves. Kate is a huge fan of my game. She is the leader of an elite squad called phantom squad. She loves her role in the party and her storyline. But, she is very talkative and likes to chat away. She is the primary cause of tangents. I personally embrace tangenting, It lets players take breaks and gives me time to take initiative or draw out battle maps, but it needs to be moderated so the game can continue.

Emily is sorta the same, but game mechanics frustrate her and teaching her them or explaining character creation can make her feel less than enthusiastic about playing.

Liam is a crazy man. He does not focus unless he's truly interested. His high stress job means he doesn't take things very seriously.
E.g. What do you do in this room, Liam?
I run around looking for giant monkey footprints.
Luckily this only happens in Aaron's games.
Liam loves his character being a sneaky double agent, with a jawa mechanic for a sidekick.

Robert is very critical and is a serious rule Nazi. He has a tendency to criticize others role playing and has unattainable expectations. He doesn't like Star Wars, so he only plays rarely.

The real problem is Aaron's wife Danielle. She has a crippling condition. She was a very active player in the past. But, her condition has made talking hard and she tends to be very difficult to engage. Especially, with so many players wanting spotlight time.

Tim is easy going enough. He has a fiery temper when he is talked over or ignored. He digs his heels in when I try to remedy the situation.

But, my largest problem is when I put away the DM screen and try to be a player. Aaron's games are still short lived and generally end in a anti climatic. "Sigh, really?" His NPCs always trump my characters and he constantly makes me feel like I'm wasting my time. I once spent two sessions in a square room with no characteristics other than smooth walls I can't climb. While, a group of players try to rescue me. The first session I was nearly rescued. Second session whisked me away into another room. This time with a garden.

I love being a GM, but I also want to play. So it is stressful, when the only other person willing to GM likes stuffing me around like that. I am comparatively new to this hobby. What do I do?

dsmiles
2012-07-18, 08:55 AM
What do I do?Honestly, your group seems to have neither more nor less problems than the average gaming group. (My group is below average in the number of problems, since we're all casual gamers and mostly get together for the social time. Gaming runs a distant second on the priorities list. Hell, half the time we game, it's a board game of some sort.)

The only recommendation I can make is talk to your group and find out what they want out of the game, and try to satisfy them all at some point in the campaign. (Not necessarily all in the same session, but don't take too long getting around to any one player's expectations.) Believe me, I like to get on the other side of the screen once and a while, too, and there's only one other person who'll DM. (His campaigns are usually short-lived, but ANY break from DMing is a good break.)

only1doug
2012-07-18, 10:50 AM
It sounds to me like Aaron has an OOC issue with you, It could be related to the fact that his games have become worse while yours have become more popular.

My suggestion would be to arrange some time for a private chat with Aaron about it and resolve the out of game issues that are obviously coming between you.

Points to make:

"I normally really enjoy your games" (say this instead of saying that "I used to enjoy your games", it makes the point that the current situation is abnormal and that you expect it to return to normal)

"I'd like ideas on how to include Danielle more" (this emphasises that you are coming to him, the more experienced GM for advice on how to GM and may well result in some good tips on how to include her. My personal suggestion would be to make sure that the arrangement of players around the table places her next to you so that she is the most included player).

"I understand that you are not enjoying the storyline focus on your character at the moment, While my game does not focus on stats and is more about roleplay you will have the opportunity to regain your original state, it's just going to take a little while to work it in to the game" (this is a big one, He's feeling annoyed that his character has been gimped, you are reassuring him that he will be able to return to normal condition and not suffer any long term penalties from the events).

Also be prepared to listen to what he has to say to you, be ready to change your mind on some details if needed to keep the peace at the table (which is not to say give him ultimate power, that wouldn't enhance the game for anyone, not even him in the long run).

Tyndmyr
2012-07-18, 10:58 AM
However when she returned to the game I imposed age penalties. I did not allow her the bonus either. My reason being that she can't get +2 wisdom, intelligence and charisma for being prematurely aged.

Honestly? You probably should have made the consequences of aging apparent BEFORE he made the choice.

RPGs are all about char choice. Sometimes, there are traps, where you don't know everything going in...but unless there's a good reason not to know, make all the info available up front. It makes for better decision making.

Gamer Girl
2012-07-18, 07:45 PM
Did I do something wrong?*


Yes, you might have.

If it went like this: DM:It will be a Star Wars game, make characters. Player 1-"I'll make a force sensitive character" DM-"Ok(hehe) but in order to do that you have to be tied to a mysterious throne with a dark secret(hehe) Player 1-"A force throne?" DM-"Yes to play in my game I absolutely demand that your force character must be tied to this throne(with a dark secret)" Player 1-"Um, ok". Then yes you did something wrong.

If it was more ''How about we say your force comes from a strange throne that a couple days from now I can use to punish you and screw you over for no reason other then it's today." Player 1-"Um, can't I just be a force character?" DM-"no" Then you did something wrong.

If it was ''your tied to the throne and there will be consequence if you break away'' right up front, then you did OK.

Though in any case I think your aging penalty was way, way to harsh. Your coming close to ''i'm going to screw up your character so you can't play..Hummahahahaa'' type of thing. And that's fine, as I'm that type of DM, but I tell my players that...upfront.....if your used to a kids gloves type game, leave now.

But if you told him all about the throne and that it would drain is life Before he made the choice to take the 'unbreakable' tie, then it was fine.

The Glyphstone
2012-07-18, 07:50 PM
Yes, you might have.

If it went like this: DM:It will be a Star Wars game, make characters. Player 1-"I'll make a force sensitive character" DM-"Ok(hehe) but in order to do that you have to be tied to a mysterious throne with a dark secret(hehe) Player 1-"A force throne?" DM-"Yes to play in my game I absolutely demand that your force character must be tied to this throne(with a dark secret)" Player 1-"Um, ok". Then yes you did something wrong.

If it was more ''How about we say your force comes from a strange throne that a couple days from now I can use to punish you and screw you over for no reason other then it's today." Player 1-"Um, can't I just be a force character?" DM-"no" Then you did something wrong.

If it was ''your tied to the throne and there will be consequence if you break away'' right up front, then you did OK.

Though in any case I think your aging penalty was way, way to harsh. Your coming close to ''i'm going to screw up your character so you can't play..Hummahahahaa'' type of thing. And that's fine, as I'm that type of DM, but I tell my players that...upfront.....if your used to a kids gloves type game, leave now.

But if you told him all about the throne and that it would drain is life Before he made the choice to take the 'unbreakable' tie, then it was fine.

I think the correct answer is D) None of the Above. Reading the OP, the Force Throne was just a part of a quest they went on, it wasn't at the start of the game. The force-sensitive character just happened to be the only person who could make use of the throne's power boost, which he willingly took...and seriously, what person even remotely familiar with Star Wars thinks the Dark Side won't screw you over eventually? It was a perfectly valid option for said character to refuse the throne and go on being a normal force-sensitive, exactly as he had been before said throne.

Sir_Gabes
2012-07-18, 10:39 PM
Yes, you might have.

If it went like this: DM:It will be a Star Wars game, make characters. Player 1-"I'll make a force sensitive character" DM-"Ok(hehe) but in order to do that you have to be tied to a mysterious throne with a dark secret(hehe) Player 1-"A force throne?" DM-"Yes to play in my game I absolutely demand that your force character must be tied to this throne(with a dark secret)" Player 1-"Um, ok". Then yes you did something wrong.

If it was more ''How about we say your force comes from a strange throne that a couple days from now I can use to punish you and screw you over for no reason other then it's today." Player 1-"Um, can't I just be a force character?" DM-"no" Then you did something wrong.

If it was ''your tied to the throne and there will be consequence if you break away'' right up front, then you did OK.

Though in any case I think your aging penalty was way, way to harsh. Your coming close to ''i'm going to screw up your character so you can't play..Hummahahahaa'' type of thing. And that's fine, as I'm that type of DM, but I tell my players that...upfront.....if your used to a kids gloves type game, leave now.

But if you told him all about the throne and that it would drain is life Before he made the choice to take the 'unbreakable' tie, then it was fine.

Yes it was part of a quest. In the quest there was a throne he sat on that allowed him to contact a sith ghost that haunted the room. The ghost gave him a choice. Immense power and the strength of the darkside or leave. No threats and such. Power or leave. But, the devil doesn't mention the fine print in a contract.

So, Aaron found the throne had an element of power it could exert over him. This power didn't come into play yet. But, Aaron was able to recognize the link existed during meditation. He wanted redemption to break the link to the throne, which wasn't the only way out.

There was a quest in which people who had been tortured and performed ungodly experiments on had been transformed into sith husks that acted as living wounds in the force. Devouring it to sustain themselves and their power. Aaron as an act of redemption decided to restore their connection to what it used to be. It was a heroic moment and it left his body ravaged and his connection to the force lost. (temporarily) it gave him his redemption, but at a cost. Later on the group found information about Rakata tech that could restore bodies anew. This was a sort of a plot hook for another quest. So the consequence wasn't even permanent.

Slipperychicken
2012-07-19, 01:06 AM
Would it have been an issue to let Aaron know in real life that his character would have the opportunity to get his stats back in short order, through a well-crafted story arc? In the meantime, his character could learn to think twice before succumbing to the Dark Side? That way, Aaron's PC learns his lesson in-character, and Aaron knows that he isn't permanently gimped.


Take him aside and talk about "forcing" violence. Let him know that you've been going easy with the violence-thing, but you're warning him: the game-world will have consequences for his PC, like being arrested/tried/imprisoned, or having his credit cards/bank-accounts deactivated by the law, or maybe even shot-on-sight by police or raided in the middle of the night (Look up some real-life police/SWAT tactics. They look over floor-maps before assaults, know their enemies, and use things like tear gas to take people out). The thing about the police in the real-world is, they're persistent and they have a ****ton of resources. No matter how smart or tough you think you are, they will catch you. Even if you can survive one SWAT raid, through sheer numbers and persistence, they will wear you down (you will get tired. you will screw up). Once they've got you in their sights, it's only a matter of time.