Barbarian/Alchemist Gestalt (Honest Opinions)

[SSG Ghost Rider]

Hey guys and girls,

My friends and I have recently started playing a gestalt campaign that is pathfinder rules with the addition of Faerun (which is the setting) feats and PrC's added in. Right now we are only level 3 but I have my build worked out until 20 and think that it is pretty good. Maybe not the best, maybe a lot worse than I think. That's why I wanted to post it on here to get honest opinions on how good/bad it is, what you would do different if anything, and why. The stat block given is going to assume that I am combat ready (i.e. raging and mutagen on) and I will not include any items other than what we already have. Since this is a campaign there is no way to know really how wealth will go as compared to what we SHOULD have at any given level. That being said, here we go.

The Build:
Half-Orc-Gate Crasher, Chain Fighter Varients
Side 1- Scarred Barbarian 12, Master Chymist 8
Side 2- Vivisectionist Internal Alchemist 20

Str-38
Dex-18
Con-24
Int-14
Wis-10
Cha-10

AC 28 (Thats with Heavy Shield and Chain Shirt that I already have) Could be quite a bit higher with magic items as could the stat line.
CMB-22(28 for sunder) (Lage size burly)
CMD-40 (Large size burly and nimble)

Half-Orc Abilities-
-Intimidating
-Darkvision
-Gate Crasher
-Chain Fighter (3.5 Spiked chain has been approved)

Barbarian Abilities-
-Rage 41 Rounds/day (Overkill? I think not)
-Rage Powers-Intimidating Glare, Gaurded Life, Improved Gaurded Life, Terrifying Howl, (Either Clear Mind or Flesh wound?), Come and Get me
-DR 2/-
-Terrifying Visage +6 (Helping with intimidation and adding to the Howl DC)
-Scarification 3
-Tolerance (Fatigue, Exhaustion, Sickened, Nauseated, Shaken, Frightened, Stunned, Dazed)

Alchemist Abilities-
-Discoveries-Feral Mutagen, Spontaneous Healing, Lingering Spirit, Preserve Organs(Three times at 8, 14, 18), Mummification(Amung other immunities no nonlethal, see gaurded life and flesh wound rage powers), Greater Mutagen, Elixer of Life, Vestigal Arms (Two times allowing shield and two handed weapons and a extract/wand), Fast Healing(Grand Discovery)
-Breath Mastery
-Immunity-Disease/Poison
-Uncanny Dodge
-Sneak Attack +10d6
-Torturous Transformation
-Alchemy
-Brew Potion
-Poison Use
-Persistant Mutagen
-Instant Alchemy

Master Chymist Abilities
-Mutate 4/day (28 Hours per)
-Brutality +4
-Advanced Mutagen Powers
-Burly
-Nimble
-Grand Mutagen
-Growth Mutagen

Feats-
-Intimidating Prowess
-Power Attack
-Combat Reflexes
-Improved Sunder
-Greater Sunder
-Craven
-Antagonize
-?
-?
-?

Skills-
I wont take the time to figure up each skill. The important one to note is intimidate which while combat ready stands at +48
Everything else is a random smattering of skills from each list.

Items-
The only one I will list for it all to make sense is the adamantium spiked chain. Which is following 3.5 rules. Everything else is either not here yet or not crucial to the build itself.

I won't take the time to figure up saves or list even possible extract or poison I would use. This would also be a bit better with magic items but I am letting that come organically. But if there are any must have items that this build needs feel free to add them in. Most folks would know what these class abilities do and to save space I won't write out every single one. The SRD is just a click away. But the basic point is to dish out the damage while being immune or resistant to as many things as possible. I think the classes meshed together pretty well. But I leave it up for review to see everyone else's opinion on the matter. So there it is everyone. Let's hear it.

-Ghost

[Private]

Sounds pretty good. What does your full attack line look like at level 20, for spiked chain and/or natural attacks? I'd like to see the bonuses and damage output.

The addition of sneak attack to such a build is just gas on the fire, assuming you have a flanking buddy in the party with you.

[eggs]

I'm still gradually shifting from 3e to PF, so I may be overlooking something.

My first impression is that this fits pretty nicely together.

But I'd strongly consider Beastmorph over Internal Alchemist. The Alchemist's spell list makes it pretty easy to ignore most diseases, and Beastmorph adds a whole lot of utility and combat powers that are normally pretty easy to avoid due to action economy issues.

And if you're combining FR and Pathfinder feats, Cornugon Smash + Imperious Command (Drow of the Underdark) is insane.

[Larpus]

But I'd strongly consider Beastmorph over Internal Alchemist. The Alchemist's spell list makes it pretty easy to ignore most diseases, and Beastmorph adds a whole lot of utility and combat powers that are normally pretty easy to avoid due to action economy issues.
This.

Sure, you won't get anything remarkable out of it until level 6, but by then you'll be flying for a long time without spending spell slots and then at 10th level pouncing everything left and right.

And from there on the gravy just keeps coming.

You do lose Poison Resistance/Immunity (and disease), but as mentioned it can be mitigated via spells, Swift Alchemy which is nice but not vital (especially for a melee Alchemist, also ironically you keep Instant Alchemy) and Persistent Mutagen, but with Master Chymist (especially with as many levels as you got) it's hard to truly notice it unless you fight literal day-long battles.

Oh, and don't forget Lunge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/lunge-combat---final).

EDIT: I'd also grab Tentacle instead of one of the Vestigial Arms, you're not going for Parasitic Twin, and the Tentacle adds the option of another natural attack and innate grab ability at the single expense of not having magic item slots, but it's not like the arm had extra slots.

[Psyren]

Let me reinforce the sentiment that Internal Alchemist is subpar. Granted, what you give up to get it is pretty lackluster too so it's probably a wash. But if you want to be a monk, just be a monk I say.

I assume it's for Monk or Ninja multiclasses (neither of which benefit you as you are now MAD) since it can pick Extra Ki as a discovery but has no ki pool of its own.



EDIT: I'd also grab Tentacle instead of one of the Vestigial Arms, you're not going for Parasitic Twin, and the Tentacle adds the option of another natural attack and innate grab ability at the single expense of not having magic item slots, but it's not like the arm had extra slots.

Actually - while you can't wear extra rings or gloves, doesn't the arm get you a shield slot? Meaning you can, say, dual-wield with your normal arms and still wear a shield.

"The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms."

You aren't actually getting an extra slot in this case - you're just getting access to a slot you normally wouldn't be able to use.

[Larpus]

Actually - while you can't wear extra rings or gloves, doesn't the arm get you a shield slot? Meaning you can, say, dual-wield with your normal arms and still wear a shield.

"The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms."

You aren't actually getting an extra slot in this case - you're just getting access to a slot you normally wouldn't be able to use.
Well, so does the tentacle, the literal only difference being that the arm provides you magic item slots, while the tentacle gives you a natural attack with the grab ability, though I might be missing something.

"The tentacle can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms can"

One thing that I've always debated though is exactly is whether or not making natural weapon attacks are considered "extra actions", such as having the tentacle free or using your vestigial arm(s) to hold you actual weapon leaving your Feral Mutagen claws free.

On one hand, it feels like they are (after all, under normal conditions you wouldn't be able to make them), on the other, they're not since you're allowed to make as many natural weapon attacks as you have natural weapons free.

[SSG Ghost Rider]

Good responses so far guys. Looking it over it does seem as if Beastmorph would have been the way to go as far power level is concerned. But, alas, I have already made the character and there is no real way to change that now. But excellent advice regardless. Tentacle could be better than one of the arms. That way I could hold a shield two hand a weapon and still have a tentacle out to do...whatever I wanted to do with a tentacle.

@Eggs-That is probably the most amazing feat combo ever haha. The DM in this campaign has stated that drow of the underdark can only be used if the player is a drow...but maybe I can get a little leeway if I ask nicely, and keep the mountain dew glass full throughout every session.

Any more compliments or criticism? I feel pretty solid with the discovery route. The rage powers I am not so sure about. I feel like they COULD be better...but I just don't know. This is my first pathfinder barbarian so I am still adjusting a little to how they work in combat.

[Aemoh87]

Really no ragechemist: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/ragechemist

I have played melee alchemist before and this was sweet!

[SSG Ghost Rider]

You know, I looked over the rage chemist variant while I was creating the character and didn't really see the utility in it. Especially as the length of your mutagen advances so does the change you will pass out for an hour because you are brain dead. Maybe I am reading it wrong and don't understand how that drawback compares to the bonuses gained.

[Larpus]

Yeah, I also don't see it, seems like the default trap archetype to me, especially when compared to the Beastmorpher (both replace Swift Poisoning and Poison Immunity, so they do compete).

Wis is borderline dump for Alchemists and Will is a weak save, if it were at least Fort...or if it were a true Rage Mutagen with Barbarian Rage-like mechanics, but as is...I don't know, just doesn't seem worth the trouble.

[Psyren]

You know, I looked over the rage chemist variant while I was creating the character and didn't really see the utility in it. Especially as the length of your mutagen advances so does the change you will pass out for an hour because you are brain dead. Maybe I am reading it wrong and don't understand how that drawback compares to the bonuses gained.

If you want to get technical, you'll never end up comatose, because a penalty can't reduce any ability score below 1. Nothing in Ragechemist actually overrides that rule - it merely says "IF you reach 0" which can never happen by RAW since the mutagen is applying a penalty rather than ability damage.

[Jack Zander]

If you want to get technical, you'll never end up comatose, because a penalty can't reduce any ability score below 1. Nothing in Ragechemist actually overrides that rule - it merely says "IF you reach 0" which can never happen by RAW since the mutagen is applying a penalty rather than ability damage.

What? This is hilarious. I'm totally gonna pull this out and piss off a DM sometime.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Comatose Chemist sucks, never play one.


I'm surprised your DM is allowing you to advance Master Chymist on the Barb side, considering it advances your "caster" level for extracts...
If he makes you take it on the alchemist side, I would just stay alchemist, the high level discoveries are awesome, and full extract progression is better.


If you end up going for Barb 20 instead of current setup, I would switch archetypes for Invulnerable Rager. IR is kinda crap if you don't stick w/ Barbarian, but if you do, it's very nice. I really do think you should be dipping Oracle a level for fatigue immunity so that you can use 1/rage powers every round, though...

Does Faerun have the Jotunbrund feat? If so, you probably will want that...

[SSG Ghost Rider]

Haha well even if the stat never drops below one...a 1 Int creature still isn't really the fun I want to be looking for. But it definitely may get a good laugh or two at the playing table.


Comatose Chemist sucks, never play one.


I'm surprised your DM is allowing you to advance Master Chymist on the Barb side, considering it advances your "caster" level for extracts...
If he makes you take it on the alchemist side, I would just stay alchemist, the high level discoveries are awesome, and full extract progression is better.


If you end up going for Barb 20 instead of current setup, I would switch archetypes for Invulnerable Rager. IR is kinda crap if you don't stick w/ Barbarian, but if you do, it's very nice. I really do think you should be dipping Oracle a level for fatigue immunity so that you can use 1/rage powers every round, though...

Does Faerun have the Jotunbrund feat? If so, you probably will want that...

Jotunbrund is Faerun but its a regional human feat and I am half orc

And it is being played that master chymist does not advance caster level beyond hit dice. By doing it this way I just never lost a caster level from taking the class. Invulnerable rager is pretty nice though. Esp taking it to 20. I just think the things I get from master chymist stack on nicely with the being strong in both damage output and defense. Esp with the huge bumps to CMD and N.A.

[Blyte]

I suggest

Side One - Druid 12 (huge elemental) + Fighter (Brawler) +8 (11)
Side Two - Fighter (Brawler) 3 + Barbarian 17 (come and get me + tireless rage + Pounce)

Huge Elemental combat chassis, all the butt whoop of a barbarian, and all the battle field control of a brawler.

use "come and get me" in conjunction with "pushing assault", "quick bull rush", and "knock back" to ensure that no one gets more than 1 attack on you before you are knocking them back (if even they get to attack, since technically you get to attack first with "come and get me")