Flat-footed vs denied Dex to AC.

[Elric VIII]

Based on some class features, feats, and other abilities, it seems there is an unwritten assumption that flat-footed and denied Dex to AC are interchangable.

From the SRD:

Flat-Footed

A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex)

At 2nd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a barbarian already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.


From Complete Adventurer:

Uncanny Dodge (Ex)

Starting at 2nd level, a scout cannot be caught flat-footed and reacts to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. See the barbarian class feature, page 26 of the Player’s Handbook.
Note: all instances of this class feature in PrCs and example character that gain the ability from Rogue/Barbarian levels uses this wording. There is no errata that alters this wording.


From Drow of the Underdark:

Benefit: If you deal damage to an opponent in the same round that you successfully feinted against it, it becomes flatfooted.
This effect lasts 1 round or until the opponent's next turn, whichever comes first.
Opponents that can't be caught flat-footed, such as characters who have uncanny dodge, cannot be affected by Surprising Riposte.(emphasis, mine)

So, this is some supporting evidence that I have found for the two conditions being synonymous. It also does not seem to conflict with the primary source rule.

My question on this topic is:

Does this evidence support either that flat-footed is the same as denied Dex to AC, that Uncanny Dodge grants immunity to being flat-footed, or both?

[Absol197]

My question on this topic is:

Does this evidence support either that flat-footed is the same as denied Dex to AC, that Uncanny Dodge grants immunity to being flat-footed, or both?

Well, the thing is that in 3.5/Pathfinder, there is really no difference to the effects. A flat-footed character is denied their Dexterity bonus to AC, while a character that is denied their Dexterity bonus to AC is...denied their Dexterity bonus to AC. Except for some rare abilities in sourcebooks I'm not entirely familiar with, there isn't a practical difference. As shown by the wording of Uncanny Dodge, the writers may have originally intended for there to be a difference, but it never really went anywhere.

It doesn't help that your denied-Dex AC box on your character sheet says "flat-footed AC," either :smallsmile: .

[nessus]

being flat footed implies that you DO NOT have your dex to AC but come with other conditions as well, like not being able to make attacks of opportunity and so forth. Being denied you dexterity to AC does NOT mean you are flat footed although many of the same conditions might apply, they don't necessarily apply.

Example: having your legs tied up might mean you do not have your dexterity to AC. however you can still make att of opp. But you are still denied your dex to AC.
Having uncanny dodge DOES NOT protect you from being immobilized or held or other conditions that can deny you your DEX to AC, thus making them vulnerable to sneak attacks, just not by flat footed-ness.

hope this helped (i am by no means an expert, at least not since ive seen the other people on here...gulp)

[lsfreak]

Flat-footed also means you cannot make attacks of opportunity. That's the primary difference. The wording of uncanny dodge seems to be specific to the armor part of being caught flat-footed, but it looks like the non-PHB sources mix the two up to some extent. The other thing is that characters that cannot be "caught flat-footed" can still be denied their Dexterity by means of feinting, for example. So no, they're not interchangeable.

A flat-footed character is always denied their Dexterity, unless they have uncanny dodge, and cannot make AoO's (or use immediate actions).
Someone denied their Dexterity is not flat-footed, as with feinting or with invisibility. They can still make AoO's and immediate actions.
You could possibly look at it by the creature being affected. Being flat-footed is a condition of a character. Denied Dex is a condition on an attack, but attacks against flat-footed characters are defaulted to Denied Dex.

[whibla]

Based on some class features, feats, and other abilities, it seems there is an unwritten assumption that flat-footed and denied Dex to AC are interchangable.

Does this evidence support either that flat-footed is the same as denied Dex to AC, that Uncanny Dodge grants immunity to being flat-footed, or both?

What it says to me is that the authors of the scout class wrote what seemed reasonable, perhaps what they thought followed previous rules, and did a botch job of it.

Both of the original PHB classes that give Uncanny Dodge explicitly do not say that members of the class cannot be caught flat footed, only that if they are they retain their Dex bonus to AC. This still doesn't give them the opportunity to make AoO's while flatfooted.

You can be denied your dexterity by a number of methods, amongst them being: being blind, being attacked by an invisible attacker, being tied up, being stunned or asleep, or being flat footed.

Hence, the two are not synonymous, and the Scout ability uncanny dodge description should probably be changed, to match that of the rogue and barbarian classes.

[lesser_minion]

Does this evidence support either that flat-footed is the same as denied Dex to AC, that Uncanny Dodge grants immunity to being flat-footed, or both?

No. Being flat-footed is absolutely not the same thing as being denied your dexterity bonus to AC.

Look at your own quote: being flat footed actually causes you to be denied your dexterity bonus to AC and also prevents you from making attacks of opportunity (it also stops you from taking immediate actions). Uncanny dodge, by default, doesn't stop you from being flat-footed: it merely lessens the penalties.

Losing your dexterity bonus to AC is a separate issue. It can be caused by being flat-footed, but there are many other potential causes as well.

To put it bluntly, the surprising riposte feat and the scout's uncanny dodge are evidence of nothing beyond the fact that their respective writers didn't know or didn't care about the rules of the game.