D&D Stole my HD

[ShadowPsyker]

In RPGA you are allowed to play a Gnoll, sans the 2 HD, so that you can start out as a 2nd level character (Class level 1 +1 LA). I like this idea. What I can't figure out is why they didn't do this for lizardfolk, since Gnolls are evil, and Lizzy's are nuetral. I have adopted this for both of these races, and was considering Bugbears, but alas their stats are much more powerful and this would not work. 2 questions;

1) Do you do this/like this?
2) What other 2 HD races should be scaled back for civilized play?

[Andorax]

I'm guessing because there's more interest in playing Gnolls than there is playing Lizardmen. Rule of cool and all that.

As for what else might be eligible, I'd say just about anything. If you think the Gnoll rule is fair and balanced, then it is likely JUST as fair and balanced for any other 2HD humanoid/monstrous humanoid...so far as I know they always have HD + LA, so there's always going to be some associated cost.

[ShadowPsyker]

Not to nit-pick; But you didn't answer Q-1, and technically you hand waved away Q-2.

[Urpriest]

I've done this with Lizardfolk before, though nobody took the option (one guy was Poison Dusk though). I'd do it with Locathah and Sahuagin for an underwater campaign.

[NeedsAnswersNao]

In RPGARPG = Role play game. So what does the "A" stand for?

[metabolicjosh]

Rpga

Role
Playing
Game
Association

[KillianHawkeye]

RPG = Role play game. So what does the "A" stand for?

Click this link: RPGA (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=RPGA)

[yougi]

As one of my campaigns draws to a close, I'm getting ready for the next one, and I plan on starting it at 2nd level, with the possibility to play 1st level of an LA+1 race.

Those I have in mind:
-Gnoll
-Hobgoblins
-Aasimar
-Tiefling
-Lizardfolk

I took Drows out, as Drows are the main antagonists of the campaign.

[ShadowPsyker]

Hob's, Aasimar, and Tieflings can always be played as just LA +1. However I never did like the Hob's IMO unfair +1 LA. They barely qualify, and I mean BARELY! Therefore I have let people take a -2 Cha penalty to play them as LA +0. Not always, but hey compare that to a dwarf or elf.

[ima donkey]

I am a fan of playing gnolls and have never had problems convincing the DM to drop the 2 RHD because it makes gnolls not worth playing when goliaths are better to begin with and don't have any RHD. Lizardfolk on the other hand are a bit harder to talk the DM into just because of the 5 NA. (my DM's hate high AC) I think of the RHD as a way to make the monsters harder to defeat than your standard 1 HD monsters and not as a way to make the monster more balanced as a PC in the case of the gnoll and lizardfolk.

[Fouredged Sword]

fighter 1 Lizardfolk in heavy armor with a towershield is a very good second level fighter. Not much can hit you.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Quite frankly... I don't approve of neglecting HD at all. It's one of the balancing things I enjoy about 3.5. You'd be surprised some of the horridly unbalancing things you could play as in 2e.

Heck, Drizzt was an example... Drow were rather powerful as a PC race, due to a high natural MR (Magic Resistance, like SR in 3.5, but more powerful and all-encompassing), decent stats, and innate SLA's.

This is one of the things I approve of in 3.5, and one of the reasons I don't do much RPGA is because of this sort of ruling.

[ShadowPsyker]

Quite frankly... I don't approve of neglecting HD at all. It's one of the balancing things I enjoy about 3.5. You'd be surprised some of the horridly unbalancing things you could play as in 2e.

Heck, Drizzt was an example... Drow were rather powerful as a PC race, due to a high natural MR (Magic Resistance, like SR in 3.5, but more powerful and all-encompassing), decent stats, and innate SLA's.

This is one of the things I approve of in 3.5, and one of the reasons I don't do much RPGA is because of this sort of ruling.

Does that mean you consider a standard Lizardfolk on par with a 3rd level Barbarian or fighter. Remember, we're not trying to gimp the game here. We are looking objectively at low HD creatures with LA close to being playable (and reasonable that they would live in a more civilized area and so gain training instead of generic HD). I've already conceded that a bugbear would be too much to hope for. If it's the Lizardfolk's Natural armor; I can take a 3rd level human fighter and give him three devil touched feats and he'll have Natural Armor +3, Darkvision (with Blindsight 3/day), and +2 to an attack,save or check 3/day and he'll still have two fighter bonus feats to the Lizzy's 1 feat not to mention actually having 3 full D10 HD.

[Fouredged Sword]

In the past I have found lizardfolk a lot more balance around +1 LA. After not very long the LA goes away, but so does things that focus on hitting through AC. They make a neat sorcerer though with shimmering scales, or a very nice shapeshifter druid (but druids are always powerful :smalltongue:).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Here's my problem with, specifically, a Lizardman as a +1 LA and that's it.

First off, natural attacks. 2x Claw + 1x Bite. That's a lot of natural attacks already. Throw on something like PsyWar onto it, or perhaps Totemist, and you've got yourself a ginsu of damage output.

Second, that's a +5 natural armor bonus by the SRD. That's like a free 50,000 gp Amulet of Natural Protection +5. Without blowing feats. Throw even mundane armor on top of that, and you've got someone who can pretty much ignore things trying to attack it for a few levels.

The problem I'm having isn't that similar stats can't be duplicated, it's that it costs the character, in terms of feats or dump levels, to reproduce them. A Lizardman could then undergo those costs to have even more.

If you really want to make them less punishing, here's an idea:

Permit LA buyoff at level 3 as per normal in the LA buyoff rules.

At level 6, you have the option of replacing one of your RHD levels with a class level... instead of gaining a level. Thus when you hit 6, you have the option of having 4 character levels and 1 RHD instead of 4 character levels and 2RHD. This puts you a full level behind the party, but as a result of this, you can 'ride the xp curl', and gain xp faster than the rest of the party.

At level 9, you have the option of doing this again.

This keeps you from just walking through low level fights through your abnormally high damage output and high AC, but doesn't unnecessarily punish you at higher levels.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yes, but if you want to compare the equivelent cost of racial abilities look no further than a warforged with Adamantine body. +8 armor at 1st level, DR3/-, immunity to all the low level irritations except fear. Immunity is hard to just buy.

Lizard man as a LA+1 race is good. Better than human a LA 0 human, maybe. Better than a LA 0 warforged? No.

[ShadowPsyker]

My example left you with more feats than the standard Lizzy would get and gave you other abilities.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

My example left you with more feats than the standard Lizzy would get and gave you other abilities.

Incorrect. RHD grant bonus feats. You've blown all of your feats to get an inferior version of what the Lizardman gets for free. Hence the LA.

I've always held the opinion that Warforged, with all their immunities, should be at LEAST +2 LA, if not +3.

[Roguenewb]

If you play a lot of campaigns with Warforged, you will find that in campaigns without flaws, they are fairly weak. They are essentially 2 feats behind a human, and in a campaign with no flaws, at level 1, they are all the feats behind. Not a single feat. In a campaign with 2 flaws, at low levels they are pretty solid. Almost as good as human. Almost.

Never underestimate that bonus feat. It's incredible. Try out HD races, and you'll find something out very quickly. Racial HD, with the possible exception of Dragon and Outsider, are miserable. They give crappy amounts of skills, rarely have better than a d8, and have *no* class features. I usually allow players to turn 2 HD into 1 LA, and its a pretty good trade. And yet, the characters are still a little behind if they have more than +1 LA

[ShadowPsyker]

Incorrect. RHD grant bonus feats. You've blown all of your feats to get an inferior version of what the Lizardman gets for free. Hence the LA.

I've always held the opinion that Warforged, with all their immunities, should be at LEAST +2 LA, if not +3.

After my example the human has two fighter feats still left, whereas the Lizardfolk only gets 1 feat, period. How would the Lizardfolk have more when it only gets 1 and a 3rd level human fighter has 5!?

On Warforged: I used to force a +1 LA, but once I saw the Warforged domain and the fact that higher level clerics and mystics can make them their bitch with no save, I eased up. I still don't award much bonus Xp for difficult fights like I do for mortal races. One thing I truly do not understand about them is why (if they are alive & have souls) are they immune to level drain? Who thought that made sense? They have a soul but yet find themselves immune to having that soul sucked out, or even affected.

[sonofzeal]

SOME races are fine if you wave the RHD. Others are note. I'll put Shadar-Kai and Marrulurk as a side-by-side if you want - both have the same RHD and LA, both are stealthy sorts with a pseudo Sneak Attack widget tacked on. But Shadar-Kai are pretty balanced removing the RHD while Marrulurk are unfairly powerful as a mere LA+1 race.


Shadar-Kai: Dex +6, Cha -2, +1d6 Sneak Attack, EWP: Spiked Chain as a bonus feat, a (Su) HiPS, Superior Low-Light Vison... and a major debuff if they get knocked out and fail a will save.

Marrulurk: Str +2, Dex +6, Con +4, Wis +6, Cha +4, Small Size, +2 NA, +2d6 Sneak Attack, PBS and Rapid Shot as bonus feats, Death Attack (as assassin), Poison Use, Nauseating Breath, Darkvision 60 ft, Low-Light Vision, Resist Fire 5, Discriminating Hearing, Resistance to Dessication.

[Waddacku]

You are leaving out the differences between the HD, though.

Shadar-Kai are Fey, Marrulurk are Monstrous Humanoids, if I don't misremember. The Marrulurk thus gets more BAB and HP, while the Shadar-Kai gets more skill points.
Also the risk of getting negative levels that prevent you from gaining experience points just from getting stunned, dazed, staggered, or unconscious is a pretty huge drawback for the Shadar-Kai. On the Plane of Shadow you can fix it with Greater Restoration, anywhere else you need Wish or Miracle. In other words, Shadar-Kai are incredibly handicapped regardless, unless you're playing on the Plane of Shadow (where they don't take the penalties of the negative levels).
But yes, Marrulurks are well-balanced where they are, very much comparable to a straight LA 0 Rogue.