[PF(or any game really) When Combat Isn't Fun

[Lord.Sorasen]

Alright, so let's get right into this. I'm running a campaign currently, and our group hasn't quite been the best at combat at all. This isn't to say the group loses combat, but rather to say that it takes us along, long time.

Case in point, last session, the team ended up fighting against some cannibals. 4 Level 1 barbarians and their leader (who ran before risking his or their lives, really) against 4 player characters at level 2 and an NPC at level 3 (I didn't intend to include the NPC in the "party" but the players like this NPC enough that they insisted he join them). Anyway, this battle took what seemed like years and was in reality a couple hours. Admittedly our focuses weren't perfect, but this is just as much a testament to the long tedious nature of the battle as it is of anything else.

The reality is, the campaign I'm running is prewritten and is about to take a turn from its "wander around nature and ask questions about the world" and go into a "giant dungeon fight for your lives" type of thing. I remember in the first campaign I ever ran (I've run 4 campaigns if you include the two that lasted 2 sessions) that going through many room dungeons was absolutely a ton of fun, and I'd like to be able to recreate this experience with my new group... Yet I'm not entirely certain how to do it, or even what's different. I suppose I could try to list some things for completion's sake, I never know what information might be useful.


This is a new group from the one I played with before. Maybe combat just isn't our thing? (though I asked the players and they still seem semi-interested in combat in general from smaller fights we've done. We all agree this last battle was terrible.)
There sort of feels like maybe there's less variety within the party. It's strange because objectively speaking this isn't true at all. Our original party had an archer ranger who fired arrows every round, a psionic warrior who hit things with a club, a Dragonfire Adept who breathed fire every round, and maybe a cleric who healed and summoned a rat when she showed up, which was rarely. Our current group has a natural weapons ranger (two claws+bite right now); an oracle who heals and summons a rat sometimes (but unlike the cleric always shows up); a bard who uses a whip to trip, and then uses hideous laughter, animate rope, and bardic music; and a gunslinger who fires at things at range. Which is honestly just as much variation, perhaps a bit more. Yet somehow it feels a lot more monotonous.
I guess the group is only level 2, and while I believe I started the dungeon crawl fairly early for my first group, it might have been a bit later. Characters seem to get significantly more interesting at around level 4 or 5, I feel.
I guess it could be my own fault for being slow, perhaps. Though I don't feel like I'm all that slow.


The other thing I was thinking was that perhaps barbarians are just the worst possible mook enemies. d12 hit dice and also rage gives even the level 1 with 7 constitution up to 12 health, and the ones in the book don't have constitution as a dump stat.

I'm currently not near my computer, where the stats are, so I can't post specifics.. But I'll get to that when I can.

Anyway, hope you can help and/or offer amusing anecdotes, thanks in advanced!

[ShadowPsyker]

There are a lot of pitfalls that can make combat about as fun as being stuck in molasses, but you haven't really told us how the session went. Did you spend too much time looking up spells/special abilities? Did the group find itself in off topic discussions in the middle of the combat round? Or maybe players took too long to make a decision on what their character would do?

If combat is too mundane to hold their attention, one question you might ask yourself is are these enemies dynamic and interesting, or are they just multiple versions of the same NPC. If this is the case; simply spicing up the interaction by describing the unknown attackers based on their habits or equipment can make a huge difference to the players without really changing the fight. Mix it up a bit, you'd be surprised how much different a fight can be if instead of four barbarians with greataxes, you use two tall barbarians using shields, one with an axe the other a sword and the third using a greataxe, while the fourth appears somewhat shorter and favors the greatclub and yells "break them" on every swing. Sometimes players need a little flavor with their fights to remind them they're not just a block of stats on a sheet. Role playing inherently does this but combat tends to be long streams of numbers.

[Larpus]

Another possibility that really comes into view at lower levels: if people are having trouble to hit AC.

Can be from various factors, build depends on enhancements not yet available, player is sucking on the die, the enemies really do have too big of an AC, etc.

From personal experience, battle before level 3-ish tend to suck because everyone (monsters included) swings and misses.

So...my group came up with a small houserule that helps it quite a lot: if you miss by 5 or less, you deal half damage (min 1). We usually drop the rule after level 5, because by then, unless you were built for AC, it's most probably pretty meaningless already, so no reason to make it even more useless.

[Peat]

If the issue is hitting, something else which might help is persuading the two casters to run a few buffs over everyone, or dropping a few wands of such spells for them to use if they don't have the spells.

It's possible they also need to hit their mojo for working together. I've been in games where everyone clicked well, and it was great fun, and where people spent half their lives thinking "Uhm, what do I now to help?"

[Ozreth]

Combat should never take that long at level 2. Try and employ some of the tricks that the greatest DMs have been using since the 70s:

Get the party to run. Not every battle needs to be won, and shouldn't be. They should encounter enemies that just make them crap themselves right before they run for their lives.

Make some enemies really weak. Have combats that let the PCs slaughter, but have it make sense of course. Or have monsters run.

Fudge the damn dice! Seriously, if things get too tedious then just fudge. If you plan to have a long running campaign you will have hundreds of changes to pit the party against perfectly balanced foes, but If things get too dull early on due to combat you might not make it through a moth of campaigning.

[NiteCyper]

OP:


Alright, so let's get right into this. I'm running a campaign currently, and our group hasn't quite been the best at combat at all. This isn't to say the group loses combat, but rather to say that it takes us along, long time.

Case in point, last session, the team ended up fighting against some cannibals. 4 Level 1 barbarians and their leader (who ran before risking his or their lives, really) against 4 player characters at level 2 and an NPC at level 3 (I didn't intend to include the NPC in the "party" but the players like this NPC enough that they insisted he join them). Anyway, this battle took what seemed like years and was in reality a couple hours. Admittedly our focuses weren't perfect, but this is just as much a testament to the long tedious nature of the battle as it is of anything else.

The reality is, the campaign I'm running is prewritten and is about to take a turn from its "wander around nature and ask questions about the world" and go into a "giant dungeon fight for your lives" type of thing. I remember in the first campaign I ever ran (I've run 4 campaigns if you include the two that lasted 2 sessions) that going through many room dungeons was absolutely a ton of fun, and I'd like to be able to recreate this experience with my new group... Yet I'm not entirely certain how to do it, or even what's different. I suppose I could try to list some things for completion's sake, I never know what information might be useful.


This is a new group from the one I played with before. Maybe combat just isn't our thing? (though I asked the players and they still seem semi-interested in combat in general from smaller fights we've done. We all agree this last battle was terrible.)
There sort of feels like maybe there's less variety within the party. It's strange because objectively speaking this isn't true at all. Our original party had an archer ranger who fired arrows every round, a psionic warrior who hit things with a club, a Dragonfire Adept who breathed fire every round, and maybe a cleric who healed and summoned a rat when she showed up, which was rarely. Our current group has a natural weapons ranger (two claws+bite right now); an oracle who heals and summons a rat sometimes (but unlike the cleric always shows up); a bard who uses a whip to trip, and then uses hideous laughter, animate rope, and bardic music; and a gunslinger who fires at things at range. Which is honestly just as much variation, perhaps a bit more. Yet somehow it feels a lot more monotonous.
I guess the group is only level 2, and while I believe I started the dungeon crawl fairly early for my first group, it might have been a bit later. Characters seem to get significantly more interesting at around level 4 or 5, I feel.
I guess it could be my own fault for being slow, perhaps. Though I don't feel like I'm all that slow.


The other thing I was thinking was that perhaps barbarians are just the worst possible mook enemies. d12 hit dice and also rage gives even the level 1 with 7 constitution up to 12 health, and the ones in the book don't have constitution as a dump stat.

I'm currently not near my computer, where the stats are, so I can't post specifics.. But I'll get to that when I can.

Anyway, hope you can help and/or offer amusing anecdotes, thanks in advanced!


Except for the summoners and bard, each of those PCs sounds like the kind of character to spam their schtick in a Final Fantasy-style combat.
What was the terrain like? In a game that I ran (and I can count on my fingers how many D&D games that I've hosted AND played), the solo, level one archery ranger (in an EL 1 module) was using tents as cover. At one point, he got hit with a tanglefoot bag (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#tanglefootBag).
I can imagine that handy healing for the party would actually make things less exciting, running less of a risk of death.
For an example of combat, you can listen to the Penny-Arcade D&D pod-casts (enjoyable in themselves), or watch celebrity games (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=chris perkins) (which would be easier).
You raise a good point with barbarian mooks. Slog-fests are boring. I've been playing Sid Meier's Civilization V recently, and the combat in it isn't boring, especially at higher difficulty levels, because of mortality and the skill-ceiling.

There are better ways to move than others, every time combat is engaged, the two units gain XP (encouraging guerilla warfare against outmatching opponents), and combat strength is diminished corresponding to lack of HP, so the order in which units attack is important to optimize bonuses (e.g., unit 1 can kill enemy unit X in one stroke, but if the archer unit 2 attacks and doesn't kill X, both units will gain XP as unit 1 attacks after 2).

On the other hand, you could be spamming tackle, Pokémon noob-style.
Maybe have combats that can be won by talk. Roleplay that the enemy is particularly timid and the group can make a group Intimidation check to coerce their co-operation.



There are a lot of pitfalls that can make combat about as fun as being stuck in molasses, but you haven't really told us how the session went. Did you spend too much time looking up spells/special abilities? Did the group find itself in off topic discussions in the middle of the combat round? Or maybe players took too long to make a decision on what their character would do?
You can have a count-down timer for your players' turns, so combat is hot-potato, passing the turn around expediently.


Mix it up a bit, you'd be surprised how much different a fight can be if instead of four barbarians with greataxes, you use two tall barbarians using shields, one with an axe the other a sword and the third using a greataxe, while the fourth appears somewhat shorter and favors the greatclub and yells "break them" on every swing. Sometimes players need a little flavor with their fights to remind them they're not just a block of stats on a sheet. Role playing inherently does this but combat tends to be long streams of numbers.
How about environmental hazards and special actions: bull-rushing the PCs into acid-pools (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6032.msg90053#msg90053). That thread may be useful too.


Another possibility that really comes into view at lower levels: if people are having trouble to hit AC.

Can be from various factors, build depends on enhancements not yet available, player is sucking on the die, the enemies really do have too big of an AC, etc.

From personal experience, battle before level 3-ish tend to suck because everyone (monsters included) swings and misses.

So...my group came up with a small houserule that helps it quite a lot: if you miss by 5 or less, you deal half damage (min 1). We usually drop the rule after level 5, because by then, unless you were built for AC, it's most probably pretty meaningless already, so no reason to make it even more useless.

Yeah, between too high AC and too high HD, combat can be drawn out for the worse. In games, offense is better and more fun than defense. Glass cannons hit hard and live life on the edge. It's not as fun to just be a meat-shield or damage-sponge.


Your house-rule reminds me of the thread talking about Gradual & Binary Defenses (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1533.0).



Make some enemies really weak. Have combats that let the PCs slaughter, but have it make sense of course. Or have monsters run.
See, this supports the "offense is more fun (http://projectm.dantarion.com/about/) than defense" game design philosophy.


It's possible they also need to hit their mojo for working together. I've been in games where everyone clicked well, and it was great fun, and where people spent half their lives thinking "Uhm, what do I now to help?"
Lest we forget Innovating Party Design: Method and Application (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6973.10) by the legendary "Tleilaxu_Ghola" (#tactical #tactics #innovation). I had a hard time finding it again, which scares me.

[GenghisDon]

I don't see how L2 character combats can possibly be that long, but perhaps it's simply not having basic mastery of how the d20 game worksin combat? People dither over moves/attacks?

If so, a bit of practice ought clear up the problem.

If not, perhaps their characters will "gel" a bit during the next few levels.

If not (again), maybe try an older edition, such as 1e or B/X. They move MUCH, MUCH faster, literally as fast as you wish to describe the "flavour text" of the combat die results. Most of the specific details become pure DM fiat (& thus could be seen as boring in a completely different way), but several of my players much prefer it due to it's speed (about 4 times as many encounters per session).

[Zubrowka74]

Sometimes it only takes a serie of crappy dice rolls to make a fight long and boring. As a DM you could do what has been already suggested, fudge a few rolls, or when you see the encounter is getting dull, have an opponent do something unexpected. Have a random magical effect happen, FR wild magic style.

[Fighter1000]

The game can be really boring when it is just a giant missfest.
To make the combat not so boring, as the DM i have the monsters do something that the PCs would totally not expect, such as a goblin "warrior" casting a spell.

[Wonton]

All my groups have had this problem too, it really frustrates me as someone who enjoys the combat of D&D very much. In my opinion, the 2 biggest offenders usually are:

1) Too much time spent looking up rules. I literally had someone in my last session spend 5 minutes looking up the Light spell in the middle of the fight. WHO CARES how exactly the Light spell works? I know it gives 20ft of light and 40 ft of shadowy illumination and that's enough for this fight.

2) Too much time spent thinking about turns. I've never DM'd before, but if I did I think I would use a egg timer/chess clock to give people a maximum of 1 minute to think about their turns. There's nothing quite as frustrating as being ready for your turn and finishing it in 1 minute, only to have the person after you spend 15 minutes discussing their move with the whole party.

Speed of play aside, I really don't like the metagame idea that the characters in the party have some sort of telepathic link that allows them to have a full tactics discussion in 6 seconds in order to find the most optimal course of action. :smallannoyed:

[Larpus]

Yeah, between too high AC and too high HD, combat can be drawn out for the worse. In games, offense is better and more fun than defense. Glass cannons hit hard and live life on the edge. It's not as fun to just be a meat-shield or damage-sponge.


Your house-rule reminds me of the thread talking about Gradual & Binary Defenses (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1533.0).

Don't want to off-topic too much, but nice read and my thoughts exactly on D&D mechanics as a whole.

Also, yes, I prefer any day to be a glass canon living on the edge at every battle than be a tanker and watch as the DM rolls the die and misses.

[ShadowPsyker]

Speed of play aside, I really don't like the metagame idea that the characters in the party have some sort of telepathic link that allows them to have a full tactics discussion in 6 seconds in order to find the most optimal course of action. :smallannoyed:

I have recently (a year ago) joined a group in which this is common practice. When I took the reigns as DM (mainly to give their DM a much needed rest and a chance to be a player) I slowly began to curtail this behavior and have now started deducting Xp for blatantly disregarding my rulings on this. They have actually started to remember, and are conducting themselves and their characters with more forethought. Now if I can only get them to remember their own characters names.