fighter build help. Charge, trip, dodge, kill

[killianh]

I need to build a fighter that can do all of that. Doesn't need to be a straight fighter, but for the amount of feats I'm going to need to pull off everything I need to do fighter is going to have to make up a large portion of the build. Before it's suggested I would prefer no ToB or psychic warrior as I am trying to prove a point to my party about the importance of feats :smalltongue: all books are allowed save dragon compendium and the magazines. The build doesn't need to be viable at all levels, just the level I'm at which is currently 18.

Tactics: The general tactics I'm looking for for the build will be Round 1 charge with full attack. Between rounds trip everything with AoO. Round 2 either charge again (if there's space) or lay the beat down right there. Essentially I want to do battlefield control in-between rounds with actual damage output on my turn.

Build idea:

Human

Stats (pre-set array)
STR 16
DEX 13
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 11
CHA 10
Spirit lion totem whirling frenzy Barbarian 4/ Fighter 16.

Weapon proficiency is usually given for free in our game so I'll use a spiked chain. I'll have a total of 17 feats to work (7 for level, 1 for human, 9 for fighter). Currently I'm thinking:
Mobility
Dodge
Combat expertise
Cleave
Imp sunder
Imp trip
Imp bullrush
Power attack
Leap attack
Combat brute
Shock trooper
Battle Jump

Not sure what to do feat wise after that. Any help or suggestions would be much appreciated

[metabolicjosh]

Well that is a nice start!
Maybe... a Sacred Watcher? Paid La of course... No thats no good

Just take the feat for a animal companion And be small with a lance?
Just some roleplaying ideas.

[StreamOfTheSky]

How important is "charging"?

Fighter/other full BAB classes into Dervish is cool. Pick up Elusive Target and you can negate power attacks, make enemies kill themselves when they try to flank you, and get a free trip w/ no chance of it backfiring (you get tripped) if you fail every time you're missed by an AoO provoked for movement.

Dervish Dance around, full attacking, tripping people up, ending your turn out of reach of their reprisals. Best w/ a reach weapon.

Doesn't have to be a Dervish, but Dervish is great for a mobile melee character, and requires all the feats Elusive Target does anyway, along w/ Expertise, so you may as well get Improved Trip.

Feat saving tip: Mobility feat can be gained from a light armor only enhancement in MIC, called...Mobility. It's a +1 cost, well worth it to save a feat.


Feats you want/need:

Dodge (or Desert Wind Dodge if possible)
Mobility
Expertise
Improved Trip
Elusive Target
Combat Reflexes
Power Attack

Dervish will give you Spring Attack and also cleave (only when dancing). You could from there get Whirlwind Attack. With the dancing, it's not bad (basically attack every foe you can move within reach of once), though you couldn't benefit from the Elusive Target trip shenanigans.

[metabolicjosh]

Dervish is the way to get dm bolted. if done right

[Randomguy]

Take the tactical feat from Complete Warrior that lets you negate power attack. (I can't remember the name now). You've got all the prereqs for it already.

[herrhauptmann]

Knockdown (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) is another feat which lets you play around with tripping people. Some say that the order of hit then trip means you get a free attack from improved trip. Check with your DM.

Does you character HAVE to be human? Human with halfogre (halfminotaur is dragon mag I think) gets at least a +6 strength, and the size necessary for warhulk/hulking hurler.
You should be enough of a melee monster that anything on the ground will die in one full attack, if not one hit. But I'm not sure how you'll do against flying/teleporting foes. Warhulking hurler will let you throw castle towers at people.
You can even start trading away other barbarian features. A second level of barbarian (wolf totem) grants improved trip. And yes, you can have multiple totems and ACFs, so long as they don't swap out the same features. (You can't take two totems and that both require you to sacrifice your fast movement and gain the benefit of both totems)


Beyond that, a few skill tricks would go over nicely. Charging around corners or over uneven terrain. Free stand-ups without an AOO.

[morkendi]

Psychic warrior wielding spiked chain. Powers cover the charge with lions charge, expansion extends reach. Dodge, you can use the feat, but they have a power that lets you take half or save fore none on aoe spells. Powers let you kill pretty fast. Added benefit is self healing. Also good at debuffing. À lot of times, i charge casters, and my knockdown feat gives me free trips if I do 10 damage which is no problem. Strength of my enemy takes their str and gives it to me. If they try to stand, i get an AoO. I they stay down, I punish them. Vamperic blade drains con per hit, 0 con means death. I usually spend my turn manifesting powers, and let my AoO and combat reflexes do their thing. If alot of melee get on me, you can do the dim door to a corner and let them com into your reach area and provoke.

[ThiagoMartell]

You don't qualify for Combat Expertise with your array.

[morkendi]

You need 13 int for combat expertise, which is required to get improved trip which is important for the build. He would have to bump his int 1 point to get it. This can be done as he advances in level.

[killianh]

You don't qualify for Combat Expertise with your array.

At level 4 I plan to put the gained attribute point into it, I don't have the feats laid out in any particular order

[morkendi]

I meant combat reflexes.

[ThiagoMartell]

Also, with Dex 13 and a grand total of two attacks of opportunity per round with Combat Reflexes, you won't be doing much battlefield control.

If you do take the Dervish route, Expeditious Dodge is even better than Desert Wind Dodge.

If you take the Barbarian route, dip Hoziron Walker for immunity to fatigue and take Cumbrous Dodge.

[Darrin]

You need 13 int for combat expertise, which is required to get improved trip which is important for the build. He would have to bump his int 1 point to get it. This can be done as he advances in level.

You can skip Combat Expertise by adding the Wolf Totem (UA) to the Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian.



Weapon proficiency is usually given for free in our game so I'll use a spiked chain. I'll have a total of 17 feats to work (7 for level, 1 for human, 9 for fighter). Currently I'm thinking:
Mobility
Dodge


Ugh. Why? These don't really help your build.



Combat expertise
Cleave
Imp sunder
Combat brute


Wolf Totem takes care of Combat Expertise. Cleave... not nearly as bad as Dodge/Mobility, but it depends on your enemies clumping together. Improved Sunder... why are you destroying potential treasure? More efficient to just kill them first, then anything held in their hands becomes loot. Combat Brute... meh. Not really worth the bother.



Imp trip
Imp bullrush
Power attack
Leap attack
Shock trooper
Battle Jump


Battle Jump is questionable, as you need some method to get above your opponents. The rest are all solid.

Ok, there are three basic reliable combat strategies for your typical meatbag fighter:

1) Ubercharger

Power Attack
Improved Bull Rush
Shock Trooper
Leap Attack
Travel Devotion
Headlong Rush (Orc only)

2) Trip/Lockdown

EWP: Spiked Chain (or Guisarme/Armor Spikes)
Combat Expertise (or Wolf Totem Barb 2)
Improved Trip
Stand Still
Combat Reflexes
Knock-Down

3) You-Hit-Me-I-Hit-Hit-Hit-Hit-You (aka Jack-B-Quick)

Dodge
Combat Reflexes
Combat Expertise
Karmic Strike
Robilar's Gambit
TWF
Double Hit

That's 16-ish/17-ish feats, so you can probably fit all three of those into the same build.

[herrhauptmann]

Wolf Totem takes care of Combat Expertise. Cleave... not nearly as bad as Dodge/Mobility, but it depends on your enemies clumping together. Improved Sunder... why are you destroying potential treasure? More efficient to just kill them first, then anything held in their hands becomes loot. Combat Brute... meh. Not really worth the bother.

Combat brute is there for momentum swing I think. In the round after you charge, you get all the same bonuses to your power attack. Even if attacking someone else. And yes, that's great. You charge, murderalize a few enemies, then the remaining enemies charge you. Now, you get to hit them with your 5:1 power attack again.



Ok, there are three basic reliable combat strategies for your typical meatbag fighter:

Ubercharger
Power Attack
Improved Bull Rush
Shock Trooper
Leap Attack
Travel Devotion
Headlong Rush (Orc only)
Trip/Lockdown
EWP: Spiked Chain (or Guisarme/Armor Spikes)
Combat Expertise (or Wolf Totem Barb 2)
Improved Trip
Stand Still
Combat Reflexes
Knock-Down
6 hits to 1 (aka Jack-B-Quick)
(some variety of) Dodge
Combat Reflexes
Combat Expertise
Karmic Strike
Robilar's Gambit
TWF
Double Hit

That's 16-ish/17-ish feats, so you can probably fit all three of those into the same build.
Thanks for the reminder on the name of Jack B Quick. Was bugging me when I posted earlier.
ToB has a few stances you can use to help with lockdown. I'll dig through my old threads and characters to find the details, but I think you just need Thicket of Blades and Defensive Rebuke.
Also, I'm not sure he needs standstill. Why stop them from moving, when knockdown steals their movement, and puts them on the ground?
Knockdown can't stop someone from actually standing up (which provokes) but standstill doesn't help against that either. If they use a second move to actually get out of the square, you can use standstill or knockdown. In which case, I'd recommend just using knockdown.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Be a Monk2/Barbarian2/Fighter 16. You suffer one penalty to BAB, but that's OK.

You are a Monk of the Overwhelming Attack 2 (meaning you get a +2 skill bonus to Intimidate), with the Decisive Strike variant (carry a monk weapon on you at all times; you never know when you might actually use it. A quarterstaff is 0gp, for reference). You are a Barbarian of the Spirit Lion totem and the Wolf totem. Lastly, you are a Fighter of the Zhentarim order (because really, you're taking 9+ levels of Fighter; why not reward yourself?).

Your feat progression and attribute progression is as such:

1: Stand Still
H: Two-Weapon Fighting
M1: Power Attack
M2: Improved Bull Rush
3: Extra Rage
4: +1 DEX
B2: Improved Trip
F1: Knock-Down
6: Combat Reflexes
F2: Leap Attack
F3: Skill Focus (Intimidate)
8: +1 STR
F4: Shock Trooper
9: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
F6: Double Hit
12: +1 STR, Imperious Command
F8: Combat Expertise (just invest in a +2 INT item; seriously, it's nothing by this point)
F10: Robilar's Gambit
15: Dodge
16: +1 STR
F12: Karmic Strike
18:
F14:
20: +1 STR
F16:

The last three feats can be whatever you want; probably something to shore up the Jack-B-Quick strategy affixed to the end. Personally, at Fighter 16, I would take the Overwhelming Attack variant. If you're building the character to start at level 20, then you will probably just want to focus on your chain throughout, and never spend the feats on Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and Double Hit. In fact, they're pretty much extraneous anyway, so if you want to do away with them, you can. If you did, I would take Dodge at 1 (or Power Attack at 1, and be a Monk of the Passive Way at 1st level for Combat Expertise before switching styles for Improved Bull Rush), Dodge/Combat Expertise at 9 (whichever you didn't take the first time), Karmic Strike at Fighter 6, and Fighter 8 becomes another floater feat (your BAB is 11). Robilar's Gambit has to stay where it is.

Actually, I had pretty much completed everything that the build needed to do by level 8 (Fighter 4), with the human feat also being unfilled, and was having trouble fixing up feats to complete the rest of the build; Jack-B-Quick is basically filler for this build, but if it works, it works.

If you can get a Permanencied Enlarge Person at some point, grab Knockback as soon as humanly possible. Now, when you deal enough damage, you make a trip check and a bull rush check, and if your trip check succeeds, you make another attack. Push them far enough away that they provoke twice (once for standing up and once for moving toward you), and let the punishment commence.


Also, I'm not sure he needs standstill. Why stop them from moving, when knockdown steals their movement, and puts them on the ground?
Knockdown can't stop someone from actually standing up (which provokes) but standstill doesn't help against that either. If they use a second move to actually get out of the square, you can use standstill or knockdown. In which case, I'd recommend just using knockdown.

If you use Stand Still when they use their move action to stand up, they can't use their second move action to move. Period. You then don't have to worry about spending as many attacks of opportunity against one person (for mass combat), and you can always trip them on your own turn (using Knockdown).

Remember that Tumble is a skill check, and your enemy can avoid provoking on their second move by using it fairly easily. Part of the lockdown is depriving them of the opportunity.

[animewatcha]

Monk-style doesn't get the +2 to intimidate since you didn't meet the pre-reqs to keep it.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Monk-style doesn't get the +2 to intimidate since you didn't meet the pre-reqs to keep it.

Oh? I thought that was only if you changed styles.

Well, whatever. You get Power Attack and Improved Bull Rush in two levels. This makes being Monk of the Passive Way at 1st level better if you decide you want Karmic Strike easier, then.

[killianh]

@ThiagoMartell I have 580,000gp to spend, so plus +6 gloves of dex can fix that rather easily.

@darrin Dodge, mobility, and improved sunder are prerequisite feats needed for other feats in the build, our DM likes to clump enemies together and I like action economy so that was the idea behind cleave. Also a DC 20 jump check at level 18 isn't all that hard to get the 5ft needed for Battle jump. I forgot about wolf totem from UA so thanks for the reminder. Also the three base builds you listed will be a lot of help for this build.

@herrhauptmann you're correct. Combat brute is there for the extra power attack damage since I want to focus my turn on attack, and use my AoOs to trip and do battlefield control.

@Lonely Tylenol Thank you very much for the set up, I'll have to work out everything it can do, then make some personal preference tweaks to it for play style, but otherwise it captures most of what I'm looking to do

[Hiro Protagonest]

@darrin Dodge, mobility, and improved sunder are prerequisite feats needed for other feats in the build,

...You don't appear to have any feats that require Dodge/Mobility. Although it's been awhile I've looked at Battle Jump. Which is probably not worth it.

[Ramshack]

This is the current build I'm running. Combine damage, battlefield control and gives some defensive options. Though my DM doesn't allow Spiked Chain or The Spirit Lion Totem... Wizards get Wish but I can't have nice things lol

Race Human:
Level 2 Monk, 18 Fighter (Zheritam solider ACF)
Weapon Guisarme
BAB of 19
Flaw: Combat Reflexes
Flaw: Combat Expertise
Level 01 Monk: Jotunbrud, Improved Trip, Improved Grapple, Unarmed Strike
Level 02 Monk: Deflect Arrow, Evasion,
Level 03 Fighter: Deft Opportunist. Knock Down
Level 04 Fighter: Dungeon Crasher
Level 05 Fighter: Skill Focus: Intimidate
Level 06 Fighter: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush
Level 07 Fighter: Extended Intimidation
Level 08 Fighter: Knock Back
Level 09 Fighter: Shock Trooper
Level 10 Fighter: Leap Attack
Level 11 Fighter: Swift Demorlization
Level 12 Fighter: Improved Sunder, Combat Brute
Level 13 Fighter:
Level 14 Fighter: Robilar's Gambit, Imperious Command
Level 15 Fighter: Defensive Sweep
Level 16 Fighter: Close Quarters Combat
Level 17 Fighter:
Level 18 Fighter: Overpowering Attack, Improved Combat Expertise
Level 19 Fighter:
Level 20 Fighter: Mage Slayer

[morkendi]

I am not the master at 3.5 as I played 2nd edition untill last year, but the build I play for my psyhic war does everything you want very well plus more. My stats are a little different as DM let us roll them and I took half giant, but it can be done on 32 point build with human and still be very effective and fun for what you want.

at lvl 20 stats would be, 18 str, 14 int, 14wis, 16 dex, 14 con, 8 cha.

Feats not in order taken

Exotic weapon, spiked chain

Combat Expertise

Improved Trip

Knockdown

Combat Reflexes

Meta power, quicken expansion - Reduces the cost and allows you to get 2 buffs in first round. I usally str of my enemy and then do this first round

Expand Knowledge-Inertial Armor 1st lvl and 4 to ac. Augments for every 2 pp adds another point to ac.

Expand Knowledge-Thought Shield - gain pr13 against mind effects

Expand Knowledge- Prowess - Gain an instant AoO if the oppertunity arises, stacked with Combat reflexes, it gives 4 per round which will do more than 10 points which kicks in the knockdown

Earth Sense - prereq for earth power, but it can sense all creatures within 20 feet if the are touching the ground.

Earth power - Reduces the cost of all powers by 1 if you are in contact with earth

Linked power- Pay for 2 powers in 1 round. First goes off this round, other in next round, thing is you are free to do your normal thing the secound round. I usally cast Str of my enemy linked to True Venom Weapon, then use my metapower to get off a quickened augmented expasion. This means all 3 buffs are up in the begining of the second round. As a Human, you are now doing 3d6+8 plus whatever other bonus you have to weapon and such. Minimum with no other bonus is 11 wich kicks in Knockdown. And remember you are draining str and con for each hit and adding the str to your own making your damage go up every time even with the AoO.

Powers I took wich work well.
1. Expansion
1. vigor 5 HP per PP spent, spend 10 and you have 50 mor HP.
1. Call Weapon spend 16 points, you can call a +5 spiked chain out of the thin air to use. I got this after th DM decided to have someone pollymorph any object my chain into a spoon.
2. Body adjustment Heal d12 for every 2 points spent
2. Lions charge, make full attack after charge.... something you wanted
2. Str of my enemy. Drain 1 str and add to yours. Max of 8 per mob, but you can take 8 from each mob you face. AoO drains as well.
3.Empathic Transfer Hostile. Transfer up to 50 points of daqmage you have taken to enemy on touch attack max 90 if you spend 9 points
3. Evade Burst. Instant Reflex save for none, fail takes half against spells.
3. Vamperic Blade. Heals half your base weapon damage when you hit, good with your AoO and the fact that you are enlarged from expasion,
4. Dim door. Augment lets you use as a move action.
4. True Venom no save for first 1d8 poison damage to con, secondary gets fort save. Very nasty because 0 con meens death.
4. Freedom of movement
5. Adapt Body
5 Oak Body
5. Psycofeedback Boost one physical stat at the cost of another. Trick here, all that Str you keep building from str of my enemy can be transfered to another pysical stat now. You can add to con for more HP or Dex for more AoO. My favorite is add to dex getting more AoO , wich meens more attacks wich gives me even more Str to change over, Never ending circle untill you run out of things to hit. Don't forget more reflex saves if people try to blast me wich i can save for none or half thanks to Evade burst.

Very nasty, fun to play character.... 147 PP at 20th lvl with BAB of +15/+10/+5. Hit Die are 8 sided, but with self healing and buffing, this is no issue.

No need to keep going because you get five 6th level powers, but I rarely use them.