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wayfare
2012-07-19, 12:31 AM
Hey All:

We've all tried our hands at the fighter fix, all to varying degrees of success. After chatting with Vilpich about the nature of the fighter fix and its troublesome problems -- namely the "Why Can't I Be Gilgamesh?" problem -- I decided to make this fix.

This is an updated version of a fix I posted a few months ago, including new ideas for "secret traditions" that can only be gained through roleplaying and feat investment.

My goal is to create a tier 3 class that is solid, flavorful, and offers a great deal of versatility.

What I am looking for in this iteration is:

1) Tier analysis
2) Suggestion for additional secret traditions
3) Builds using this class
4) Lists of feats that would be useful for the class


Thanks in advance!

The Fighter

A man with a sword and shield can fight. A fighter aspires to more, to a legend on par with those mythic heroes that once walked the land, and are now sorely needed.

Fighters study the warriors of old, mastering their techniques and blending their styles into a unique and practical martial art. Though lacking the flash of Martial Adepts, Fighters support their party with an adaptable fighting style and superlative combat skill.

Hit Die: d10
Skill Points: 4 + Intelligence
Trained Skills: Appraise, Balance, Climb, Craft (Any), Diplomacy, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, Swim
Weapon Proficiencies: All Simple and Martial weapons
Armor Proficiencies: All armor and all shields

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Strike
1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+0|Bonus Feat, Tactical Shift|1d6
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+0|Fighting Tradition|1d6
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+1|Combat Mastery 1|1d6
4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+1|Bonus Feat|1d6
5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+1|Fighting Tradition|1d6
6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+5|
+2|Bonus Feat, Battlefield Mobility|2d6
7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+2|Combat Mastery 2|2d6
8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+6|
+2|Bonus Feat|2d6
9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+3|Fighting Tradition|2d6
10th|
+10/+5/|
+7|
+7|
+3|Bonus Feat, Armored Mobility|2d6
11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+7|
+3|Combat Mastery 3|2d6
12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+8|
+4|Bonus Feat|3d6
13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+8|
+4|Fighting Tradition|3d6
14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+9|
+4|Bonus Feat, Advanced Battlefield Mobility|3d6
15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+9|
+5|Combat Mastery 4|3d6
16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+10|
+5|Bonus Feat|4d6
17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+5|Fighting Tradition|4d6
18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+11|
+6|Bonus Feat|4d6
19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+6|Combat Mastery 5|4d6
20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+6|Legendary Hero|4d6[/table]

Strike (Ex): The Fighter has a pool of damage dice he can allocate to successful attacks each round. On a successful attack, the fighter may add any or all of his Strike dice to the damage inflicted by his attack. Once Strike dice are added to an attack, they are effectively “spent” until the beginning of your next turn.

Tactical Shift (Ex): A Fighter is constantly on the lookout for opportunities to assume an improved tactical position. When the Fighter successfully damages an opponent, he may move up to half his speed. Moving in this way foes not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Fighting Traditions (Ex): The heroes of legend were more than simple warriors, they were icons who embodied the myriad aspects of war. Some were cunning tricksters who defeated their enemies with guile and treachery; others were mystic warriors who blended arcane power with mastery of blade and bow; still others were paragons of knightly renown, matchless fighters and deadly duelists.
Through intense study, the Fighter has learned to master the secrets of these iconic warriors, developing a heroic fighting style that grants great power. At 2nd level and every 3 levels thereafter, the Fighter learns one of the following fighting traditions (also called styles). Each tradition grants a host of abilities, which are described as follows:

Class Bonus: These features are permanent enhancements that the Fighter gains upon learning the Style.

Passive Effect: This power is only active when the Fighter is using the style.

Level "X" Bonus: At levels 5, 10 and 15 the fighter learns a new power that he can use while this style is active.

When a fighter begins his day, he gains the abilities of a single tradition of his choice automatically. A fighter can switch between traditions with 5 minutes of meditation and weapon practice.

Here are the 10 traditions:

Arcane Knight: This legendary hero combines raw arcane power with the combat skill only a master warrior can bring to bear. Wielding a weapon that hums with undiluted mystic energies, the Arcane Knight learns how to manipulate raw magic in simple, but impressive ways.

Some argue that this tradition was begun by Corellon himself, who assumed a wrathful aspect when facing his hated foe Grummsh. Oddly enough, Orcish shamans disagree with this legend, instead stating that the tradition was begun by a group of Orc warriors who were captured and tortured to reveal the secrets of the Arcane Knight to jealous elves. Whatever its provenance, this tradition has seen extensive use throughout the Ages, often sponsored by Church organizations that seek to counter Arcane power.

• Class Bonus: The Fighter adds Use Magic Device to his trained skill list.
• Passive Effect: While this style is active, the fighter may convert all Strike enhanced weapon damage to Force damage.
• 5th Level Bonus: The Fighter can teleport 15 feet as a move action, but cannot bypass barriers thicker than 5 feet. This movement increases by 5 feet at 10th level and every 5 levels thereafter.
• 10th Level Bonus: On a successful attack, you may sacrifice 2d6 Strike Damage to cast Break Enchantment on your opponent. Add your Combat Mastery bonus to the result of your Caster Level check to determine the effect of this power.
• 15th Level Bonus: You gain SR 12 + Fighter level against hostile spells (you determine what spells are hostile when they are cast upon you). If a spell fails to overcome your SR, you gain a bonus to your next Attack and Damage roll equal to the level of the spell.

Iron Knight: Sometimes, all that stands between victory and defeat is one man who refuses to back down. Fighters who emulate the Iron Knight seek to be that man, standing tall and strong in chaos of battle.

The Iron Knight combines a nearly impenetrable defense with a canny offense, slipping between enemy ranks to deliver a deadly strike without abandoning a stalwart defense. It is no surprise that Dwarves claim this Tradition as their own, as it is uniquely suited to Dwarven military mentality.

Kerdes Ironpick is a Dwarven exemplar who was known to use this style. She died defending her family hall against a Hobgoblin Invasion, but not before seeing her lord to safety and slaying 3 of the Hobgoblin Chieftan’s champions. Thanks to Kerdes’ Valor, Ironpick Hall still produces fine ore to supply the Dwarven Army – the best of which is marked with Kerdes’ personal seal.

• Class Bonus: Your Weapons gain 5 feet of reach.
• Passive Effect: Enemies treat all squares adjacent to the fighter as if they were difficult terrain. Allies (including the Iron Knight) within this area gain +2 AC and DR 2/-.
• 5th Level Bonus: You gain the Mettle extraordinary ability.
• 10th Level Bonus: When you damage an enemy, you may sacrifice 2d6 Strike damage to force your opponent to make a Fortitude Save DC (10 + ½ level + Strength Modifier) or be Staggered for 1d4 rounds.
• 15th Level Bonus: Enemies treat all squares within a 10 foot radius of you as difficult terrain. Allies within this radius gain +4 to AC and DR 4/-.

Dervish: Striking with the speed and power of lightning, a fighter who adopts the Dervish style is a deadly threat at any range. Specializing in melee combat, the Dervish uses superior speed to deliver a deadly charge that ends with a flurry of lethal blows. Unmatched mobility allows the fighter to function easily as a scout, then switch suddenly to deadly vanguard at the first sign of trouble.

Xephs and Thri-Kreen are known for their deadly Dervish attack squads, making use of natural speed and deadly weaponry to eliminate unwary foes. Skarn are also known to employ Dervish fighters as elite troopers – single “unarmed” units that strike with power and vanish into a horde of Skarn knights.

Verron Copperhand was a Halfling hero who followed this Tradition extensively, raiding oppressive tax-collectors and spreading the ill-gotten coin to local Halfling families. While swift-footed Verron was never caught, the families that benefitted from his charity were often punished for his deeds. Eventually turned out by his friends, the bandit vanished from history, but not without a princely sum of gold to tide him over.

The Thri-Kreen knight known as “The Adjudicator” was also a deadly practitioner of this style, wielding dual crystalline greatswords with deadly speed. While the Adjudicator eventually fell against a tide of Gith pirates, his exploits lived on long in the race-memory of his people. Young Thri-Kreen who see a vision of the Dervish in their dreams are said to be marked for greatness – martial prowess and noble death are guaranteed by such a vision.

• Class Bonus: Add Tumble to your list of class skills.
• Passive Effect: The Fighter gains a +5 enhancement bonus to speed. This increases by 5 at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter.
• 5th Level Bonus: The Fighter maximizes all damage inflicted as part of a charge attack.
• 10th Level Bonus: The Fighter gains the Pounce extraordinary ability
• 15th Level Bonus: When making a full attack, the Fighter makes all attacks at his highest attack bonus.

Artful Duelist: A form that demands incredible timing and precision, the Artful Duelist style emphasizes perfection in action. Artful Duelists do not possess the incredible speed of the Dervish, but act with such impeccable timing that their feats seem supernatural.

This style is well represented in the Elven tradition, and is a particular hallmark of Drow Fighter’s Societies, who often use this style to the exclusion of all others. The style has recently gained popularity with some humans, who term the style “Bravura” and conduct deadly duels that are as much about entertainment as they are about settling questions of honor.

Amarato Kaidan was a ronin from Kara-Tur famed for using this style. A superlative swordsman who made his living fighting “show duels” for the pleasure of wealthy nobles, Kaidan turned his odd social standing into a tool of vengeance. After years spent fighting beautiful but harmless duels, the ronin was invited to the home of the noble suspected of assassinating Kaidan’s former master. When the “duel” began, Kaidan knocked his sparring partner out and cut a swath through the nobles in attendance. His fate after that point is unknown, but no magistrate records his death.

• Class Bonus: You gain a +4 bonus to confirm criticals.
• Passive Effect: When you hit an enemy, you gain a +1 insight bonus to AC against that enemy’s attacks for 1 round. If an enemy attacks and misses you, you gain a +1 insight bonus to attacks made against that enemy for 1 round.
These bonuses increase by 1 at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter.
• 5th Level Bonus: Once per round, when you take damage, you may expend an attack of opportunity to roll your weapon damage. You reduce the damage taken by the result of your roll.
• 10th Level Bonus: Once per round, as a free action, you may make an attack against an opponent that attacks and misses you.
• 15th Level Bonus: Every time you land a critical hit, your opponent takes 2 points of ability damage targeting your choice of Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution.

Savage Slayer: A mere step removed from animal brutality, this Tradition emphasizes ruthless attack and awful displays of force. The goal of this style is to brutalize the enemy, to break their will and shatter hope. It is not a pretty style, but it certainly is effective.

This tradition has its origins in the mythic past, as the favored fighting style of the brothers Hextor and Heironeous. A powerful warding against the enemies of creation, many gods decried the use of this art as savage and uncivilized. While Heironeous eventually moved on to adopt a more knightly combat style, Hextor reveled in the brutality and slaughter created by this style.

• Class Bonus: Once per round, you can use Intimidate to Demoralize an enemy as a Swift Action.
• Passive Effect: While in this Style, use d8s for your Strike dice.
• 5th Level Bonus: You become immune to Dazing, Stunning, and Fear effects while in this style.
• 10th Level Bonus: You gain the Frightful Presence extraordinary ability. Your Frightful Presence activates whenever you reduce an enemy to 0 hp or lower. All enemies within 30 feet must make a Will Save or be Shaken for 1d6 rounds.
• 15th Level Bonus: You may sacrifice all Strike Dice to force an opponent hit by your attack to make a Fortitude Save (DC 10 + ½ level + Strength modifier) or be instantly reduced to 0 hp. An opponent who successfully saves against this attack is immune to this effect for 24 hours.

Aligned Champion: A style studied by a rare few devoted knights, this tradition demands a singular focus and strength of belief. Transforming the fighters belief into both weapon and armor, this fighting style is especially useful for fighting outsiders and abominations.

Humans and Dwarves are most likely to learn this style, as these races typically cleave rather closely to their spiritual protectors. Fighters who adopt this style are often mistaken for paladins or crusaders, and many Aligned Champions serve as shieldmates to other exalted warriors.

The Jeves Bladearm was an oddly benevolent gith’sharath (battle sergeant) of great renown in the Githyanki empire. When summoned by Queen Vlaakith to his ascension, the grizzled warrior new not pride, but a strange dread in his heart. Such was his fear that he meditated on the Aligned Champion style and spirited a silver dagger into his audience with the magnificent queen. When Vlaakith revealed her true face and attempted to consume the gish, Jeves responded by burying the sliver dagger deep in the lich-queen’s side. Feeling pain for the first time in centuries, Vlaakith smote Jeves and cast his soul into the astral plane. It is said that the gith’sharath now wanders the Astral Plane, seeking allies to liberate his people.

• Class Bonus: Add Knowledge: Religion to your list of trained skills.
• Passive Bonus: When you activate this Style, choose one of your two Alignment components. Your weapon attacks gain that alignment subtype.
• 5th Level Bonus: You gain DR 5 that can only be bypassed by enemies of an opposed alignment to the one chosen when you assume this style.
• 10th Level Bonus: You are surrounded by a Magic Circle against your opposed alignment.
• 15th Level Bonus: You may sacrifice all Strike dice to Banish an outsider of an opposed alignment. The Outsider must make a Will Save DC (10 + ½ level + Constitution modifier) or be cast out of this plane and into its home plane.

Sly Trickster: While not an honored fighting tradition, this style is more widely practiced than most fighters are willing to admit to. Combining unmatched tactical versatility with the ability to capitalize upon both enemy and ally attacks, the Sly Trickster style is an asset to any fighters arsenal.

Halflings are so bold as to claim ownership of this style, and most Halfling fighters are schooled in this tradition before any other. Jann also revel in the use of this style, and many of the most famous Jann heroes are depicted as Sly Tricksters in stories and songs.

Valeflor Argorsinia was a Tiefling who aspired to knighthood, but was inclined towards deception and trickery. Eventually embracing her chaotic side, Valeflor eventually created a mercenary company that served as vanguard for some of the more…liberally minded knightly orders. No unit aided by Valeflor ever lost a fight, and to this day “Swords of the Vale” mercenary company is an ally to good knights with open minds.

• Class Bonus: Add Bluff to your trained skills list.
• Passive Bonus: While this style is active, enemies who take Strike damage are Flat-Footed for 1 round.
• 5th Level Bonus: You can make an attack of opportunity against any enemy struck by an ally within weapon reach. You may only use this ability once per round, even if you can make multiple attacks of opportunity in a round.
• 10th Level Bonus: You can sacrifice 1d6 Strike damage to force your opponent to make a Fortitude Save DC (10 + ½ level + Dexterity Modifier) or be Dazed for 1 round. You can instead sacrifice 2d6 Strike damage to Stun a foe or 3d6 Strike damage to Paralyze your enemy.
• 15th Level Bonus: When an opponent misses you with an attack, you can redirect that attack against any target within range of that attack. Use the attackers attack roll to resolve this maneuver, but add your Combat Mastery as a bonus to the roll.
You may use this ability once per round.

Masterful Captain: A style many fighters aspire to learn, every culture has some variation of this tradition. Most fighters do not learn the secrets of tactical command until late in their careers, but some attempt to learn this style early, the better to unite their allies. Fighters who use this style create opportunities for their allies, forging a unit that is far stronger than the sum of its parts.

Kressos Skurn was the father of the White Raven School of Tactics, but did not live to see his methodology codified into a martial discipline. The philosopher knight was instead a devout follower of this Tradition, and sought to create a knightly order on par with the legendary Terian Legionnaires. His treatises on the subject are required reading at most military academies, and some of his more philosophical ideas on small unit combat serve as the inspiration of White Raven maneuvers.

• Class Bonus: Add your Combat Mastery bonus to your Leadership score.
• Passive Effect: While this Style is active, allies within 10 feet of you gain +2 to Attack, Critical Confirmation, and Damage rolls. This radius increases by 5 feet at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter.
• 5th Level Bonus: Allies apply your Combat Mastery bonus to combat maneuvers they attempt.
• 10th Level Bonus: Whenever you reduce an enemy to 0 hp or less, allies within your aura gain temporary hp equal to half your Fighter level.
• 15th Level Bonus: Whenever you or an adjacent ally has to make a Saving throw, apply the highest saving throw in the group to resist the effect. Whenever you or an adjacent ally is attacked, apply the highest AC in the group to the attack.

Rugged Survivor: Not so much a tradition as a state of mind, the Rugged Survivor style emphasizes endurance and adaptability. Most fighters pick this style up some time in their careers, the better to resist the rigors of a soldiers life.

The Rugged Survivor style was extensively practiced by the human warrior-philosophers of Terias, who taught a rigid hierarchy of combat styles – beginning with the Rugged Survivor style, the moving to the Iron Knight Style, and finally ending with the Masterful Captain style. This sequence, called the Terian Method, created the most impressive infantry ever seen in the mortal realms. While the fall of the Terian empire against an army of Slaadi is documented in the historical record, religious scholars claim that the fallen warriors were raised up as Archons to serve in the celestial host.

• Class Bonus: Your Fighter hit-dice become d12s.
• Passive Effect: While this Style is active, add your Constitution Modifier to your Saving Throws.
• 5th Level Bonus: You gain your choice of the Evasion, Mettle, and Uncanny Dodge extraordinary abilities.
• 10th Level Bonus: You gain any two of the above extraordinary abilities.
• 15th level Bonus: You gain all 3 of the above extraordinary abilities.

Deadly Sniper: Mastering the bow in the same way a warrior masters the sword is a feat of heroic proportions – so much time and effort goes in to earning and retaining that skill that few fighters ever make the attempt.

For those fighters that do make the attempt, the Deadly Sniper tradition grants unsurpassed power. A Deadly Sniper can make his arrows dance, piercing straight through enemies and leaving foes open to deadly follow-up attacks. At the highest levels of skill, a Deadly Sniper can darken the skies with a hail of razored steel.

Elves claim this tradition as their handiwork, but Halfling outriders are known to use the style to great effect from the backs of their warhounds.

• Class Bonus: Add your Combat Mastery bonus to the damage of ranged attacks you make.
• Passive Effect: While this style is active, the Critical Threat Range of ranged weapons increases by 1.
• 5th Level Bonus: As a standard action, you can fire a projectile that acts as a Line 30 effect. Opponents with the area of effect must make a Saving Throw DC (10 + ½ level + Dexterity modifier) or take Weapon + Strike damage.
• 10th Level Bonus: While this style is active, any time you damage an enemy with a ranged attack, your next successful attack against that enemy inflicts maximum damage.
• 15th Level Bonus: As a full action, make a single attack against a target within range. On a hit the opponent takes Weapon + Strike damage, and all enemies Within 20 feet must make a Reflex Save DC (10 + ½ level + Dexterity modifier) or take Strike damage.

At 10th level, the fighter can switch Combat Tradition as a move action, one per encounter.

Combat Mastery (Ex): A fighter of 3rd level is so confident in his use of the martial arts that he can perform certain maneuvers with skill surpassing other devoted combatants. When you attempt or attempt to resist a Bull Rush, Disarm, Feint, Grapple, or Trip you gain a +1 bonus to your roll. This bonus increases by 1 at 7th level and every 4 levels thereafter.
Additionally, owing to your long experience using armor, you reduce the armor check penalty of any armor you wear by your combat mastery bonus.

Battlefield Mobility (Ex): On the battlefield, life and death is measured in moments. Where other warriors need to carefully pick their shots, the fighter combines mobility and offense in a graceful, deadly dance.
At fighter of 6th level can make a full attack as a standard action.

At 14th level, the Fighter has learned to harness momentum and can barrel straight through most hampering effects. The fighter is immune to effects that would reduce his speed, including armor penalties, difficult terrain, and spells like "slow". Effects that eliminate actions or hold the fighter in place (such as the Daze status or a Grapple) still have their normal effect

Armored Mobility (Ex): For lesser warriors, armor is a necessary burden, worn to deflect blows at the cost of mobility. A fighter has grown so accustomed to his armor that it moves like a second skin, capable of deflecting blows that would otherwise bypass its protection.
A Fighter of 10th level retains the AC bonus granted by armor when targeted by touch attacks.

Legendary Hero (Ex): A fighter of 20th level has ceased to emulate the heroes of legend – instead becoming one herself. The fighter chooses one Tradition she knows – this Tradition is always active and the fighter may have one additional Tradition active at any time.
The fighter becomes a hero of legend, her exploits attached to the school she ties herself to. As a living myth, the fighter seems larger than life, gaining a +2 bonus to all attributes and ignoring all aging penalties.








Secret Traditions

Maul of the Titans: Titans have numbered among the greatest champions of the mortal races as well as their most feared enemies. Combining the raw power of chaos with sheer size and strength, its easy to understand why Titans are among the most feared and worshipped beings in creation. This tradition emulates the strength of these mighty beings, allowing a fighter to strike with crippling force and devastating power.

Though Titans are among the most powerful of beings, ancient treaties with the gods prevent many Titans for directly intervening in the mortal world. Other Titans were bound after a great war with the gods and lack the means to interact with the material plane, other than proxies. Both camps of Titans are known to bless mortal warriors with knowledge of this tradition, creating mighty champions to advance the arcane goals of these godlike beings.

Class Bonus: You gain the Powerful Build feature, if you don’t already have it
Passive Effect: Your Strike dice become d10s
Level 5 Bonus: Any weapon you wield is considered Adamantine while you wield it.
Level 10 Bonus: You gain the Awesome Blow feat, even if you do not meet the prerequisites. Every strike die you sacrifice when using this feat allows Awesome Blow to effect enemies one cumulative Size category larger than you.
Level 15 Bonus: As a Standard action, you may strike the ground and sacrifice 1 or more Strike Dice. Opponents within a 10 foot radius per strike die sacrificed must make a Reflex Save (DC 10 + ½ level + Strength modifier) or be knocked prone.

Wyrmsworn Champion

Class Bonus: You add Knowledge: Arcana to your Skill List
Passive Bonus: Your strike dice inflict d8 damage of the appropriate elemental type.
Level 5 Bonus: When you strike an opponent, you may sacrifice 1 strike die to force that opponent to make a Will save (DC 10 + ½ level + Strength modifier) or be Shaken for 1 round. You may sacrifice 2 Strike dice to instead inflict the Frightened status or 3 strike dice to instead inflict the Panicked status.
Level 10 Bonus: As a standard action you may swing your weapon in a broad arc in front of you . Enemies in a 30 foot cone take Weapon + Strike damage. A successful reflex save negates the damage.
Level 15 Bonus: You sprout draconic wings seemingly crafted from your linked element. You gain a Fly Speed of 60 with average maneuverability while this Stance is active.

Deathtempered

Class Bonus: You are immune to Fear effects
Passive Bonus: You gain a +4 bonus to saving throws against Death effects
Level 5 Bonus: When you inflict Strike damage on an opponent, you gain 2 temporary hp per Strike die used.
Level 10 Bonus: You are immune to critical hits and precision damage.
Level 15 Bonus: When you inflict a critical hit on your opponent, your opponent must make a Fortitude Save (DC 10 + ½ level + Constitution modifier) or gain a number of Negative levels equal to the Weapon’s critical multiplier. A successful save halves the number of negative levels gained.

nonsi
2012-07-19, 03:40 AM
THIS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13212607&postcount=24)

The only change I'd make to that suggestion (in case you think that, even once per encounter, even at level 18, 2 full attacks per round are unacceptable), is to require a swift action in order to make full attack as a standard action.

And don't apply daily limits.
Give the Fighter some freedom.


I'll repeat (in so many words) what I said in the past.
Your fighter fix is ingenious and marvelous flavor-wise, but without addressing battlefield mobility and action economy, it will be battlefield-crippled compared to most other classes at the higher levels.
High damage and flashy effects cannot compensate for those two factors (which, btw, also have dramatic effect on battlefield control and how much the fighter is able to assist his allies).



Tactical Shift
This is weird. Suppose nobody is threatening the fighter. He's free to do what he wants and there's an opponent 20ft away.
So, because there's nobody to hit, he can't capitalize on his movement ?
Can he treat the ground as legitimate target then ?
I suspect this will raise arguments at the gaming table.

Sgt. Cookie
2012-07-19, 06:36 AM
My note about Rugged Survivor still stands.

Compared to all the other Traditions, it's just underwhelming.

Mettle, Evasion and Uncanny dodge by level 15, compared to any of the others, is not really worth it, except in certain builds.

If there were other abilities, added to what is there, such as re-rolling a failed save, or being able to act at less than -10 hit points, just something that brings Rugged Survivor up to the same standard as the others.

wayfare
2012-07-19, 10:17 AM
THIS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13212607&postcount=24)

The only change I'd make to that suggestion (in case you think that, even once per encounter, even at level 18, 2 full attacks per round are unacceptable), is to require a swift action in order to make full attack as a standard action.

And don't apply daily limits.
Give the Fighter some freedom.


I'll repeat (in so many words) what I said in the past.
Your fighter fix is ingenious and marvelous flavor-wise, but without addressing battlefield mobility and action economy, it will be battlefield-crippled compared to most other classes at the higher levels.
High damage and flashy effects cannot compensate for those two factors (which, btw, also have dramatic effect on battlefield control and how much the fighter is able to assist his allies).



Tactical Shift
This is weird. Suppose nobody is threatening the fighter. He's free to do what he wants and there's an opponent 20ft away.
So, because there's nobody to hit, he can't capitalize on his movement ?
Can he treat the ground as legitimate target then ?
I suspect this will raise arguments at the gaming table.

I take your point about Tactical Shift, though i think combat tends to create target rich environments at low to mid levels. At high levels I don't think it will be as significant a benefit, but, then again, there are all sorts of speed boosting items (and the dervish tradition) that will allow you to move a significant distance. Also, I thought it might be a good "cover buster" for ranged attackers.

Are there any other thoughts on this, because I am half ready to nix it in favor of something like "train with a weapon for 10 minutes to gain some minor bonuses (weapon focus/spec/improved critical?).

Part of the reason I created this thread was to talk out the whole action economy thing, so I am glad you brought it up. I'm making a few changes, so let me know if i am going far enough.

@Sgt. Cookie: Im thinking, since mettle is already part of the Iron Knight style, hows about removing it from the list of options and making the following changes:

Level 10 Bonus: You gain both Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, or you get the Improved version of either one of those Class Features.

Level 15 Bonus: You gain both Improved Evasion and Improved Uncanny Dodge.

Would this improve the style any ?

nonsi
2012-07-19, 01:09 PM
What does your fighter do - at any level - vs. Forcecage, Reverse Gravity and other such spells ?

My features that grant immediate-action movement address the above issue.
Disregarding my proposals, what alternatives do you offer that don't require readying an action? Did I miss anything?

wayfare
2012-07-19, 07:08 PM
What does your fighter do - at any level - vs. Forcecage, Reverse Gravity and other such spells ?

My features that grant immediate-action movement address the above issue.
Disregarding my proposals, what alternatives do you offer that don't require readying an action? Did I miss anything?

To be honest, nothing. But I'd venture to say that most tier 3 classes don't have defenses against those powers either.

The thing about breaking action economy, is that its really a tier 1 or 2 thing (imo). The ability to act more than your enemy is incredibly deadly, moreso when you are a class that has more potential options than a straight melee class.

Is it really necessary to allow action economy to be broken in this way to be tier 3? Beguiler and Dread Necromancer don't really have solutions to those spells -- sure, they have minions and whatnot, but a caster has a million ways to get rid of those. Same thing with Bard. Wildshape ranger simply has no defense against forcecage, Duskblade gets a bit of dispelling, but I'm not certain you can dispel forcecage or reverse gravity. Warblade may be able to Iron Heart it though thats iffy in that the gravity is not really targeting it, and neither is the force cage. Of the tier 3 classes, Psychic Warrior could certainly find a way out of those spells, as could Factotum, and maybe Swordsage? I have never really done much with binders, but I'[m not certain they could pull it off.

nonsi
2012-07-19, 11:04 PM
The thing about breaking action economy, is that its really a tier 1 or 2 thing (imo). The ability to act more than your enemy is incredibly deadly, moreso when you are a class that has more potential options than a straight melee class.

Not really.
Any spellcasting as a swift action breaks action economy. Same goes for Split Ray & Repeating spell.
And that's just off the top of my head without even trying.




Is it really necessary to allow action economy to be broken in this way to be tier 3?

It is if you're a class without magical powers: without flight/teleportation/area effects/metamorphosis/abjuration/summoning/healing/illusions.
All the Fighter has are his combat skills.
If it can't be superior to other classes in at least that part, then what's the point really?




Beguiler and Dread Necromancer don't really have solutions to those spells

If the wizard also wishes to target his victims and not just buy himself some time to escape, he'll use the cage version of the spell, right? Right.
If that's the case, then they can retaliate with spells of their own.




Same thing with Bard

D-Door.




Wildshape ranger simply has no defense against forcecage

Wildshape Ranger has defense at least against one version of forcecage: the cage version - the one that a wizard will use if he also wishes to target his victim with spells later on.
The ranger simply turns into a snake.




Duskblade gets a bit of dispelling, but I'm not certain you can dispel forcecage.

D-Door & Disintegrate.

wayfare
2012-07-20, 12:00 AM
Not really.
Any spellcasting as a swift action breaks action economy. Same goes for Split Ray & Repeating spell.
And that's just off the top of my head without even trying.

Agreed, but those are tier 1 effects. I mean, metamagic breaks the game so hard its not even funny.

It is if you're a class without magical powers: without flight/teleportation/area effects/metamorphosis/abjuration/summoning/healing/illusions.
All the Fighter has are his combat skills.
If it can't be superior to other classes in at least that part, then what's the point really?

There are traditions that grant you flight and teleportation. Also, by the time flight becomes a necessity, there are various ways to get it on gear.

If the wizard also wishes to target his victims and not just buy himself some time to escape, he'll use the cage version of the spell, right? Right.
If that's the case, then they can retaliate with spells of their own.

Sure, but, being limited spellcasters, they won't be able to effectively counter a full-on wizard. Its not like they can do anything that will really hurt a prepped wizard.

D-Door.

Helps out with forcecage, maybe not with reverse gravity. Its actually probably a bad idea to try, considering that physics can re-assert itself harshly.

Wildshape Ranger has defense at least against one version of forcecage: the cage version - the one that a wizard will use if he also wishes to target his victim with spells later on.
The ranger simply turns into a snake.

But the wizard has no many options that why would he resort to blasting the ranger? Why not dominate him instead? Also, just leave him inside the cage. He will eventually suffocate over the duration of the spell.

D-Door & Disintegrate.

Disintegrate you get too late to really be effective. By that point you are facing down armies of planetars anyway. Dimension Door is still useful specifically for Force Cage, i'll concede that, but by that point you're buying wands of DD anyway or using Apporting Armor.

My concern is two-fold:

1: Everybody has a trick to get out of forcecage. So whats the point of force cage? Why even have the spell if everybody can easily get out of it?
Now, my fighter does in fact have a way to get out of forcecage. You might argue that its forcing the fighter to take Arcane Champion as a sort of "tradition tax", but lets be honest -- a class feature is the same thing.

2: I find immediate action cheese to be very difficult for many players to grasp. I know the class is huge, but I've tried to keep it simple. There are very few mechanics you have to remember, and none you have to juggle.

nonsi
2012-07-20, 01:03 AM
Agreed, but those are tier 1

SL +3/+4 modifiers, I'm not sure that by themselves they pose tier 1 ingredients.




There are traditions that grant you flight and teleportation.

And if you didn't take them, or already used up your daily tradition-swapping due to genuine need, then you're shafted.




Sure, but, being limited spellcasters, they won't be able to effectively counter a full-on wizard.

This does not justify perpetuating the Wizard's supremacy even further.




Helps out with forcecage, maybe not with reverse gravity. Its actually probably a bad idea to try, considering that physics can re-assert itself harshly.

I'm not sure what you were trying to say here in regard to D-Door.




But the wizard has no many options that why would he resort to blasting the ranger?

I said "target" not "blasting".




Also, just leave him inside the cage. He will eventually suffocate over the duration of the spell.

1. Assuming the victim has no allies to aid him by then.
2. 27 cubic meters of air (make it 20, if the target's size is Large) are too large a volume for the air to run out in less than 24 hours. It's certainly too much for the spell's duration when the target is medium or smaller.



[B]
1: Everybody has a trick to get out of forcecage. So whats the point of force cage? Why even have the spell if everybody can easily get out of it?

Easily? Level 18?



[B]
2: I find immediate action cheese to be very difficult for many players to grasp. I know the class is huge, but I've tried to keep it simple. There are very few mechanics you have to remember, and none you have to juggle.

I didn't notice complexity in my suggestions.

wayfare
2012-07-20, 02:59 AM
I'll agree, you can get shafted. But whats the point if you cant?

I'll be perfectly honest here -- Arcane Knight is a gimme. If you have not taken it by level 13 you WILL absolutely be in trouble if you are not properly kitted out. Forget forcecage, hows about instakills and domination and all the other nastiness spellcasters can throw at you.

I think smart gear selection (and investment in UMD as a feat-earned skill) can eliminate some of these problems, but not all of them.

What I think I'll end up doing is modifying the Dervish to incorporate your suggestions for action economy. At least that way you'll have a few options for "mandatory traditions"

I'll also modify the tradition swapping to once per 5 rounds, to enable more versatility in longer fights. That way, you can drop useless traditions more easily and focus on those that are really helpful for defeating an enemy.

mrcarter11
2012-07-20, 03:51 AM
I'm forced to ask why not allow players to have more then a single tradition up at once, before level 20. I mean, even as you said this is sorta like a binder, so why not give them more then a single vestige. At level 20, something that I think would make more sense would be to grant them knowledge of all remaining traditions and maybe one of the special three. But really man, they should be able to use more then one at a single time.

Also , full attack as a standard action, please.. Pretty please. Pretty please for the love of whatever deity you believe in.

nonsi
2012-07-20, 04:18 AM
Forget forcecage, hows about instakills and domination and all the other nastiness spellcasters can throw at you.

Most instakills you save against carry little to no effect.
The way Forcecage works, there are no saves and the victim is rendered a sitting duck.
I could just say nix Forcecage, but who's to say no similar spell will come up.




I think smart gear selection (and investment in UMD as a feat-earned skill) can eliminate some of these problems, but not all of them.

My approach on that matter is that there comes a time in a child's life where he needs to become a man and stand on his own.




What I think I'll end up doing is modifying the Dervish to incorporate your suggestions for action economy. At least that way you'll have a few options for "mandatory traditions"

Surely more thematically appropriate than maximizing charging damage.
Also, instead of pouncing, allow movement up to the fighter's speed and attacking anyone within reach. This fits perfectly with the image of combat dancing.

Now a general mental exercise:
Define the parameters to evaluate a tradition as mandatory and the level at which it becomes so.
Now figure if you can cram all mandatory traditions into a single character so that they're gained at their mandatory levels. Does it leave any room for other traditions ?

Btw, what are the prerequisites for the Secret Traditions ? (you mentioned feat)




I'll also modify the tradition swapping to once per 5 rounds, to enable more versatility in longer fights. That way, you can drop useless traditions more easily and focus on those that are really helpful for defeating an enemy.

Good call.
I'd make it a standard action (provokes yes/no - your call) with no "cooldown" time.




Also, I'd swap Tactical Shift for my Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13182574&postcount=1)'s Learning Ease, or ProudGrognard's Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248189)'s Initial training

Milo v3
2012-07-20, 07:00 AM
Most instakills you save against carry little to no effect.
The way Forcecage works, there are no saves and the victim is rendered a sitting duck.
I could just say nix Forcecage, but who's to say no similar spell will come up.


May I ask how your class fixes this problem? Just skimming it I don't seem how your class isn't affected by the problems of forcecage or reverse gravity.

nonsi
2012-07-20, 07:37 AM
May I ask how your class fixes this problem? Just skimming it I don't seem how your class isn't affected by the problems of forcecage or reverse gravity.

With "Battleshaper".
A 14th+ level warrior is by no means unaffected by Forcecage. S/he just has the option of avoiding it without the need to ready an action.

Milo v3
2012-07-20, 07:48 AM
With "Battleshaper".
A 14th+ level warrior is by no means unaffected by Forcecage. S/he just has the option of avoiding it without the need to ready an action.

??? :smallconfused:

You gain an extra swift or immediate action every combat round (meaning, in a single combat round you can either take 2 immediate actions, 2 swift actions, or 1 immediate action and 1 swift action).
Each round, you have the option of performing one of the following:
- You can trade an immediate actions and your Combat Focus to gain an extra move action.
- You can trade a swift actions and your Combat Focus to gain an extra standard action.

How does this allow you to avoid it?

nonsi
2012-07-20, 07:58 AM
Quote: "You can trade an immediate actions and your Combat Focus to gain an extra move action"

Now let's ask at which time does one use an immediate action?
Answer: Anytime s/he wishes out of their combat turn.

Say, this wizard casts a spell on you and you're not surprised. You assess that wizard as being a badass and his finger pointing at you scares the living daylights out of you. So, you spend an immediate action and move away for the life of you.
If that spell happens to be Forcecage, you've really dodged the bullet.


EDIT:
Maybe I should rephrase "gain an extra move action" to "take a move action".

Milo v3
2012-07-20, 08:08 AM
Quote: "You can trade an immediate actions and your Combat Focus to gain an extra move action"

Now let's ask at which time does one use an immediate action?
Answer: Anytime s/he wishes out of their combat turn.

Say, this wizard casts a spell on you and you're not surprised. You assess that wizard as being a badass and his finger pointing at you scares the living daylights out of you. So, you spend an immediate action and move away for the life of you.
If that spell happens to be Forcecage, you've really dodged the bullet.


From the wording I didn't guess you actually expended an immediate action. You simply can't use it in that round. Also I thought you only gain a Move Action, not that you can immediately use it.

nonsi
2012-07-20, 08:30 AM
You simply can't use it in that round.

It's my homebrew :smalltongue:




Also I thought you only gain a Move Action, not that you can immediately use it.

In that case I'd have said: "spend a swift action".

EDIT:
Let's stop hijacking wayfare's thread.

Ashtagon
2012-07-20, 08:35 AM
The "add skill X to your trained skill list" feature - how exactly does that work? If you switch traditions, do you still reap the full benefit of the skill points you spent?

A better approach would be:

Skilled in XYZ: The first time you acquire this martial tradition, XYZ becomes a permanent class skill for you. In addition, while you are using this tradition, you are considered to have your skill rank in this skill maximised, regardless of how many skill points you have invested in this skill.

nonsi
2012-07-20, 08:35 AM
I'm forced to ask why not allow players to have more then a single tradition up at once, before level 20. I mean, even as you said this is sorta like a binder, so why not give them more then a single vestige.

I'm all for it.




At level 20, something that I think would make more sense would be to grant them knowledge of all remaining traditions and maybe one of the special three. But really man, they should be able to use more then one at a single time.

I vote against this one and more for action-costing tradition swapping.

nonsi
2012-07-20, 08:39 AM
A better approach would be:

Skilled in XYZ: The first time you acquire this martial tradition, XYZ becomes a permanent class skill for you. In addition, while you are using this tradition, you are considered to have your skill rank in this skill maximised, regardless of how many skill points you have invested in this skill.

ZERO investment for on-the-fly maximized skills ? :smalleek:
As a DM, I'd rule it out as cheesy.

Sgt. Cookie
2012-07-20, 08:41 AM
@Sgt. Cookie: Im thinking, since mettle is already part of the Iron Knight style, hows about removing it from the list of options and making the following changes:

Level 10 Bonus: You gain both Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, or you get the Improved version of either one of those Class Features.

Level 15 Bonus: You gain both Improved Evasion and Improved Uncanny Dodge.

Would this improve the style any ?

Yes and No.

Yes, the style would be improved, but No, it would not improve it to the level of the others.


Lets do a comparison with, say, Dervish:

Dervish:

Class Bonus: Add Tumble to your list of class skills.
Ok, nothing to good, but not too bad. Tumble helps avoid AoOs, so that's nice.

Passive Effect: The Fighter gains a +5 enhancement bonus to speed. This increases by 5 at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter.
This is nice and decent, extra speed is always good.

5th Level Bonus: The Fighter maximizes all damage inflicted as part of a charge attack.
This makes charging a very useful strategy now. Even for those who don't optimize for it.

10th Level Bonus: The Fighter gains the Pounce extraordinary ability
This is very good, just look at the amount of times people say "Dip spirit lion totem Barbarian".

15th Level Bonus: When making a full attack, the Fighter makes all attacks at his highest attack bonus.
This is just, fantastic.


Rugged Survivor:

You take less damage from some spells and abilities, you can't be flanked, you get more Hitpoints and Constitution is used for saves.



As you can see, Rugged Survivor is just underwhelming. Like I said before, it needs more that emphasises the "Survivor" aspect.

Like I said before, adding in things such as Re rolling failed Saving Throws would help.




The "add skill X to your trained skill list" feature - how exactly does that work? If you switch traditions, do you still reap the full benefit of the skill points you spent?

A Class Bonus means that it affects the Fighter CLASS, not the Fighter TRADITION. So, picking up Arcane Knight means that the Fighter gets UMD on his class skill list, regardless of the Tradition he is using.

Ashtagon
2012-07-20, 09:07 AM
ZERO investment for on-the-fly maximized skills ? :smalleek:
As a DM, I'd rule it out as cheesy.

In effect, it's adding +1 to the fighter's skill points per level., with that +1 being pre-spent on a specific choice. And there is a (small) opportunity cost in that you must be in that specific tradition when using it to qualify for the maximised skill.

Because we all know fighters have too many skill points.

nonsi
2012-07-20, 09:12 AM
Rugged Survivor:

You take less damage from some spells and abilities, you can't be flanked, you get more Hitpoints and Constitution is used for saves.



As you can see, Rugged Survivor is just underwhelming. Like I said before, it needs more that emphasises the "Survivor" aspect.

Like I said before, adding in things such as Re rolling failed Saving Throws would help.


I strongly disagree.
Rugged Survivor, modified with wayfare's latest suggestion is a powerful survival tool.
I'd say it's mandatory and it's almost a no-brainer.
The sooner you take it, the better chances you have of ever getting to the point of gaining new traditions (because you'll make it alive to that point).

wayfare
2012-07-20, 09:44 AM
Sorry, I really should add an edit log, but one is not up:

Standard Action full attack happens at level 6 now. Level 14 sports half of Freedom of Movement (the non-insane and logic defying half).

The Class skill thing is literally intended that you add UMD to your list of fighter class skills. At 4 + Int skill points, this fighter will be able to put a few points in the skills he finds most useful. Anybody who takes Arcane Knight will max out UMD in a hurry.

Have the dervish mod ready, but i'm working from my phone, so its not going up until later tonight.

@Sgt. Cookie: Constitution is added to saves, sort of like Divine Grace for a paladin. I thought that was actually pretty powerful.

@Nonsi: The secret traditions will have one feat requirement, but also an RP requirement. For example, Wyrmsworn Champion requires that you kill a dragon and drink its specially prepared blood. Deathtempered requires that you are killed by level-draining undead. Maul of the Titans requires that you make a pact with a titans. The Upcoming Archomental Jannisary requires that you travel to an elemental plane and dedicate yourself to the Archomentals (or Elemental Princes). I am also considering a Tradition that emulates the Fey in some way, which requires you to swear your service to a fey noble (think Dresden files) as well as a Tradition that emulates the Terrian Archons i mention in the fluff (think militant angels to get an idea of what i am going for).

DaTedinator
2012-07-20, 11:11 AM
I really dig it. The main thing I want out of a fighter fix is simplicity, and I think this is the first fix I've seen that really has it. I've been kicking around ideas for a fighter fix for a while now, but now that I've seen this, that doesn't seem necessary. Which is a little sad, but I'm okay with it. :smalltongue:

Among my ideas, though, was the conception of the fighter as the warlock of Tome of Battle; i.e., the fighter is to the warblade as the warlock is to the sorcerer. In that vein of thinking, what about a fighting tradition based around each of the nine disciplines? If you really wanted to keep it simple, you could even just have the 5th, 10th, and 15th level abilities be maneuvers.

nonsi
2012-07-20, 01:16 PM
.
Unless I'm missing something, this class has absolutely nothing to boost its Will saves.

This means that it will be as vulnerable as classes ever get to all kinds of mental influences.

Am I wrong in my observation ?

Yakk
2012-07-20, 02:22 PM
Too many of your abilities continue to take level slots as if they deserve to.

Combat mastery +1 isn't a level up feature worth looking at.

---

The tradition idea is a good one. But might I propose something slightly different.

You can MASTER 1 tradition at level 2, and an additional one at 6, 10, 14 and 18. Traditions you have mastered grant some constant bonus (such as the Class Bonus portion), and are always active.

In addition, you have a pool of traditions you know. You can use these traditions, but you don't get the MASTERY bonus from them. You can enter the style of one of these traditions at a time at level 1.

The bonuses you gain from fighting in the style of the tradition are called STYLE bonuses.

You learn new traditions for free as you level up, but you can also be trained in new traditions, or find ancient training manuals, and learn additional ones.

Switching traditional styles takes a standard action at level 1. As you gain levels, this gets cheaper. In addition, you start being able to be in two tradition styles at once at middle levels.

One of the traditions you can be in grants you feats (selected from the fighter bonus feat list) at level 1, and every even level.

Now you are starting to get something quadratic. The power of each tradition scales up, and the number of traditions you have mastered and can assume the style of goes up.

...

For combat mastery, might I suggest a pool of mastery points? You can spend them, after the fact, to make a failed saving throw succeed, a missed attack or maneuver hit, or to boost your defence against an attack. They can also apply to skills (maybe any class skill?)


...

The strike bonus is a linear boost to effectiveness. As such, it is not worth an extra column in your table. 4d6 extra damage/round will not make a significant balance difference, especially when it cannot be leveraged: sneak attack at least contributes at higher levels because you apply it more than once per round.

...

I might recommend comparing a level 1 fighter with a longsword in chain dueling a CR 1 monster, and a level 20 fighter with a +5 holy bastard sword in +5 full plate with superior fortification and a +5 shield dueling a self-buffed (level 11 arcane+some cleric spells) old red dragon or pit fiend (+summoned ally). (Remember, a level 20 fighter with a really restricted item budget is supposed to be a CR 20 challenge, so the fight should be close).

wayfare
2012-07-20, 06:59 PM
@DaTedinator: Thanks. Thats my design goal in a nutshell -- something that feels like the "feat guy" fighter but has more thematic options.

I like your idea for ToB traditions. I think I'll handle it like i did the Masterful Captain tradition -- the tradition will be a sort of prototype for the more refined maneuvers.

Also, I'll create a feat that allows other classes to gain a single non-secret tradition.

@Nonsi: Rugged Survivor gives +Con to all saves. Arcane Knight grants SR, Aligned Champion grants Magic Circle.

@Yakk. Thats more of a ground-up rebuild. Its interesting, and you make me want to fiddle, but I think this class hits upper tier 4/lower tier 3 on its own merits.
I'll have to disagree on the utility of Combat Mastery. You effectively become a large creature for the purpose of tripping/grappling/bull rush, huge if you stack improved grapple, gargantuan if you get powerful build, and I should really create a Wrestler/Brawler tradition that will kick that up to Colossal. I think its a fairly nice bonus for Spiked Chain trippers, and makes combat maneuvers actually useful for a fighter.

nonsi
2012-07-21, 12:56 AM
One thing I do agree with Yakk: your Fighter should gain the ability to maintain 2 traditions simultaneously at mid levels (anywhere from level 10 to 13). At mid-high levels, one will not be enough.
I would personally prioritize that over Armored Mobility and make Armored Mobility a feat or even a feat-chain.
Then, at level 20, a fighter would thus have 1 tradition always active and 2 floating traditions.

As for Yakk's suggestion for overhauling - I'd say a definite no.
One of your Fighter's strong sides is its simplicity. One glance at the table and everything adds up.


One thing that I noticed to drag on from the previous version: You still haven't fixed 11th level Strike damage to 3d6.

Yakk
2012-07-21, 08:59 AM
Then a strait-up critique:

Strike feature: Against CR 20 monsters, 4d6 damage per round is negligible. (~300 HP means 5% of the enemies HP) Against CR1 monsters, 1d6 damage per round is huge (~10 HP, or 35% of enemies HP). So the Strike column adds way more power at low levels (where fighter's don't need it as much) and way less power at high levels (where fighters need it).

Conclusion: Scrap it or rewrite it.

General issue: Abilities are needlessly "smeared" over 20 levels. Just because you have 20 levels, doesn't mean each ability has to be spread over the entire progression.

Sure, a +5 to a bunch of maneuvers and defences is nothing to be sneezed at (too hard). But that was 5 different level up features invested in that. Why is it spread out over 5 different level up features? As far as I can tell, to fill slots in the table.

As an improvement (which I doubt is good enough), make it +2/+4/+6 and fill 3 slots instead of 5. Or heck, make it a +4 bonus that you gain once.

...

Class Bonus: Instead of adding a skill, what about granting a skill bonus equal to your Fighter class level? Instead of "Your Fighter hit-dice become d12s", which is problematic if you gain it at level 5, "you gain 1 HP per fighter class level"?

...

There are a bunch of needless restrictions on the 15th level tradition abilities. "An opponent who successfully saves against this attack is immune to this effect for 24 hours", "Every time you land a critical hit, your opponent takes 2 points of ability damage targeting your choice of Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution."

This:
"At 10th level, the fighter can switch Combat Tradition as a move action, one per encounter." is needlessly restricted. How about "you can switch combat traditions as a move action"? You could even throw in tradition switching as swift actions as you gain levels.

wayfare
2012-07-21, 10:50 AM
Hey All:

Ok, here is the change I am planning on making to the Dervish tradition, as [per Nonsi's advice:


• Class Bonus: Add Tumble to your list of class skills.
• Passive Effect: The Fighter gains a +10 enhancement bonus to speed.
• 5th Level Bonus: The Fighter gains the Pounce extraordinary ability.
• 10th Level Bonus: Once per round, you may spend an immediate action to move up to half your speed.
• 15th Level Bonus: When making a full attack, the Fighter makes all attacks at his highest attack bonus.


Also, here are two variations on a grappling tradition I want to include in the standard tradition list, likely to be listed as a precursor to the Setting Sun martial discipline (see the fluff for Masterful Captain to get an idea of what I mean). Which do you think works better?

• Class Bonus: Your unarmed strike inflicts 1d8 lethal or non-lethal damage at your option.
• Passive Effect: You count as 1 Size category larger when resisting or initiating the Trip, Bull Rush, and Grapple combat maneuvers.
• 5th Level Bonus: Your unarmed strikes gain a +1 enhancement bonus. Additionally, you gain the Improved Grab ability.
• 10th Level Bonus: Your unarmed strikes are considered +3 weapons. Additionally, you gain the Constrict ability.
• 15th Level Bonus: Your unarmed strikes are considered +5 weapons. Additionally, when you inflict damage with a Grapple, your opponent must make a Fortitude Save (DC 10 +1/2 level + Strength) or Take 2 points of Constitution damage. A successful save negates the damage.

Or

• Class Bonus: Your unarmed strike inflicts 1d8 lethal or non-lethal damage at your option.
• Passive Effect: You count as 1 Size category larger when resisting or initiating the Trip, Bull Rush, and Grapple combat maneuvers.
• 5th Level Bonus: Your unarmed strikes gain a +1 enhancement bonus. Additionally, when you Bull Rush an opponent, the opponent is Staggered for 1 round.
• 10th Level Bonus: Your unarmed strikes are considered +3 weapons. Additionally, when you trip an opponent, you may throw the opponent up to 10 feet.
• 15th Level Bonus: Your unarmed strikes are considered +5 weapons. Additionally, when you inflict damage with a Grapple, your opponent must make a Fortitude Save (DC 10 +1/2 level + Strength) or Take 2 points of Constitution damage. A successful save negates the damage.

wayfare
2012-07-23, 12:57 AM
Then a strait-up critique:

Strike feature: Against CR 20 monsters, 4d6 damage per round is negligible. (~300 HP means 5% of the enemies HP) Against CR1 monsters, 1d6 damage per round is huge (~10 HP, or 35% of enemies HP). So the Strike column adds way more power at low levels (where fighter's don't need it as much) and way less power at high levels (where fighters need it).

Conclusion: Scrap it or rewrite it.

Strike is the carrier for many Tradition abilities, and increases tactical versatility by allowing character to power attack/combat expertise with higher iterative attacks and use strike to fill in for lost damage with lower iteratives that are less likely to hit when combined with power attack.

General issue: Abilities are needlessly "smeared" over 20 levels. Just because you have 20 levels, doesn't mean each ability has to be spread over the entire progression.

Sure, a +5 to a bunch of maneuvers and defences is nothing to be sneezed at (too hard). But that was 5 different level up features invested in that. Why is it spread out over 5 different level up features? As far as I can tell, to fill slots in the table.

As an improvement (which I doubt is good enough), make it +2/+4/+6 and fill 3 slots instead of 5. Or heck, make it a +4 bonus that you gain once.


Wow, your tone is awful here. Ok, so here's the thing -- these features are typically spread out over multiple levels. Sneak attack -- takes 19 levels to grow. Any feature that grants average save progression takes up at least 3 levels. The Dread Necromancer gets gradual increases to DR and fortification to describe a process of lichification. The Barbarian gets gradual DR. The Beguilers Cloaked Casting slowly gets better over 4 levels. Dragon Shaman Aura's develop over 20 levels. The Duskblade Spell Power feature also eats up 5 features over 18 levels. Would all of these feature be more powerful if you didn't have to wait so long to benefit from them? Sure. But they all share a common design logic:

As you level up, you get better at things in thematically appropriate ways.

The thing that makes the Dread Necromancer or Beguiler so fun is that they are classes built around themed growth. You get better by inches, and a lot of your loopholes or power options are eliminated because of that. Its less powerful, far less optimal, but a lot of players prefer thematic coherence to power.

All of the listed classes are tier 4-tier 3 (except maybe dragon shaman -- I've seen people put it everywhere from T3 to T5), which is what i am aiming for. Given that I am aiming for T4/T3, how is spreading this growth out a bad thing?
...

Class Bonus: Instead of adding a skill, what about granting a skill bonus equal to your Fighter class level? Instead of "Your Fighter hit-dice become d12s", which is problematic if you gain it at level 5, "you gain 1 HP per fighter class level"?

You're probably right about the Rugged Survivor bonus, I'll make that change soon. But the Skill bonus is off theme and verges into incarnum territory -- we're talking about a fighter that will become the very best skillmaster in the game. That is a good theme, but not the theme I am trying to build.
...

There are a bunch of needless restrictions on the 15th level tradition abilities. "An opponent who successfully saves against this attack is immune to this effect for 24 hours", "Every time you land a critical hit, your opponent takes 2 points of ability damage targeting your choice of Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution."

I think its unbalancing if a fighter can toss off instakills every round, as part of a full attack. I don't think thats within the grasp of any tier 3 class. Heck, without shenanigans, I am pretty certain its beyond most T2 classes. Similarly, crit fishers will be able to land at least 1 critical every 2 rounds. Allowing the character to stack all three types of ability damage is taking away tactical decision-making. It would be a more powerful ability, but less fun to implement.

This:
"At 10th level, the fighter can switch Combat Tradition as a move action, one per encounter." is needlessly restricted. How about "you can switch combat traditions as a move action"? You could even throw in tradition switching as swift actions as you gain levels.

I'll go with you and nonsi on this, as it seems to generate a lot of feedback

.......................................

nonsi
2012-07-23, 01:16 AM
• 5th Level Bonus: The Fighter gains the Pounce extraordinary ability.

1. This carries Ubercharger flavor, not Dervish flavor.
2. You only get 1 attack at level 5 without multiclassing, unless you're talking about 2WF (but for that there's the 2W-Pounce feat).




Also, here are two variations on a grappling tradition I want to include in the standard tradition list, likely to be listed as a precursor to the Setting Sun martial discipline (see the fluff for Masterful Captain to get an idea of what I mean). Which do you think works better?

I'd take the first - both for fluff and crunch.

Yakk
2012-07-23, 02:17 PM
Strike is the carrier for many Tradition abilities, and increases tactical versatility by allowing character to power attack/combat expertise with higher iterative attacks and use strike to fill in for lost damage with lower iteratives that are less likely to hit when combined with power attack.
Yes. I am aware of that.

But it is still a ridiculously small amount of damage at level 20, and a ridiculously big amount of damage at level 1.

At level 1, fighter types don't need a huge boost in damage output. At level 20 they do.


Wow, your tone is awful here. Ok, so here's the thing -- these features are typically spread out over multiple levels.
Yes, many features are spread out over levels.

Sneak attack -- takes 19 levels to grow.
At level 1, Sneak attack deals ~1/3 of a CR1 creature's HP. It is a huge feature for a level 1 chraracter.

At level 20, Sneak attack can apply to each attack in an iterative attack. Presuming 7 iterative attacks, that is up to 245 damage: this is an overestimate, because it doesn't take into account the difficulty of actually landing those later attacks.

But, as a feature, it scales with level.

It isn't as strong at high levels, but it does help.

Any feature that grants average save progression takes up at least 3 levels.Average save progression doesn't take up your "here is what you get at level X" slot in a class progression table.

The Dread Necromancer gets gradual increases to DR and fortification to describe a process of lichification.
The Dread Necromancer's primary class feature is he's a full caster class. The class features on top of that are just gravy on the steak. Every level, the Dread Necromancer gets new uses per day of encounter-breaking abilities, nad every 2nd level gains a new rung of encounter-breaking abilities.

The Barbarian gets gradual DR.
Yes. Also note that the Barbarian is not a decent-tier class.

The Beguilers Cloaked Casting slowly gets better over 4 levels.
Full caster. Other abilities are just gravy, and add texture.

Dragon Shaman Aura's develop over 20 levels.
And this compares to a +5 bonus to special attacks that still won't work on a CR 20 dragon how? 25% of the level-up features of your class are devoted to this boost. I'm saying it is a massive over-costing, and it seems to exist just to fill the table with "you get something every level".

The Duskblade Spell Power feature also eats up 5 features over 18 levels.
Yep. And it is a weak filler ability next to the Duskblade spell progression of the class.

Would all of these feature be more powerful if you didn't have to wait so long to benefit from them? Sure.
Yep. And in most cases, it comes from a tier-4 class (barbarian, rogue), or it is on a full caster class who is gaining other features (like new spells or new spell levels or the equivalent) at the same time.

That ability, as a "gravy" on top of some other actual improvement that is significant, works. That ability pretending that it actually makes the level a non-dead level doesn't work.

Use stuff like that for gravy on top, not the meat of the level up feature.

All of the listed classes are tier 4-tier 3 (except maybe dragon shaman -- I've seen people put it everywhere from T3 to T5), which is what i am aiming for. Given that I am aiming for T4/T3, how is spreading this growth out a bad thing?
Oh, I'm sorry -- I thought you where aiming for T3. Which you said in your initial post. And every single class you cited was a caster class, or a T4 class. There is a reason for that.

Regardless, each level should provide something that the player drools over. Levels where you get a BaB bump and a +1 to some maneuvers are levels that aren't drool-worthy. Spellcaster classes have this built in...

As a concrete example, level 7 is utterly boring:
+1 to hit, +1 to hit and defend against combat maneuvers.

Level 11 gets an iterative attack, but that comes from full BaB, which a myriad of classes provide. And otherwise ... another +1 to maneuvers.

Level 15 -- +1 to two saves, +1 to hit, and +1 to some combat maneuvers.

Level 19 -- second from capstone -- is even more boring!

Same with level 3. Boring level.

Every level that you earn Combat Mastery is a level that I, as a player, would consider a wasted dead level.

Making those levels


I think its unbalancing if a fighter can toss off instakills every round, as part of a full attack. I don't think thats within the grasp of any tier 3 class. Heck, without shenanigans, I am pretty certain its beyond most T2 classes. Similarly, crit fishers will be able to land at least 1 critical every 2 rounds. Allowing the character to stack all three types of ability damage is taking away tactical decision-making. It would be a more powerful ability, but less fun to implement. I'd agree, except this is level 15 we are talking about.

An Old Red Dragon has a +19 Fort save, unbuffed. A level 16 Slayer with 24 strength forces a save against DC 25. So the level 15 Slayer takes an average of 4 rounds to kill this CR-appropriate foe with this ability -- except the Red Dragon can easily have buffs on.

4 Frost Worms each get killed 55-45 when hit (CR 12 each). So this ability defeats 1/7th of a CR-appropriate encounter.

3 Glabrezu -- each save on a 7+, so 1/10th of a CR-appropriate encounter per round on average.

This is me randomly picking monsters that look like they might be near CR 16, and I'm not seeing it as being a game-breaking ability. It just looks like a "non-magical classes cannot have nice things" design decision, honestly.

Yes, it would be strong. But a level 15 character should be getting a strong ability each level. And this is the only significant ability you get from level 15 to 19 that increases your power (as opposed to your options/width -- a new tradition gives you more width, but not more raw power) significantly.

wayfare
2012-07-23, 09:57 PM
After playing around with Nonsi and Yakk's ideas, here is what I came up with. Any thoughts?

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Strike
1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+0|Bonus Feat, Tactical Shift|3
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+0|Fighting Tradition|4
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+1|Tactics (Swift)|4
4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+1|Bonus Feat|4
5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+1|Fighting Tradition|5
6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+5|
+2|Bonus Feat, Battlefield Mobility|5
7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+2|Tactics (Move)|5
8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+6|
+2|Bonus Feat|6
9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+3|Fighting Tradition|6
10th|
+10/+5/|
+7|
+7|
+3|Bonus Feat, Armored Mobility|6
11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+7|
+3|Tactical Opportunist|7
12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+8|
+4|Bonus Feat|7
13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+8|
+4|Fighting Tradition|7
14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+9|
+4|Bonus Feat, Advanced Battlefield Mobility|8
15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+9|
+5|Tactics (Standard)|8
16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+10|
+5|Bonus Feat|8
17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+5|Fighting Tradition|9
18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+11|
+6|Bonus Feat|9
19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+6|Tactics (Reaction)|9
20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+6|Legendary Hero|10[/table]



Gambits (Ex): The fighter has learned how to take advantage of flaws in an opponents strategy to strike with superior power.
When the fighter inflicts damage, he may expend 1 or more gambits – each gambit spent add 1d6 to the damage inflicted by the attack. A fighter can only spend a number of gambits equal to his level on any individual attack.
Once spent, gambits can be regained through 5 minutes of meditation.

Tactics(Ex): At 3rd level, the fighter has learned how to create opportunities for his allies on the battlefield. As a swift action, the fighter can spend a gambit to grant an ally a Swift action.
At 7th level, the fighter can spend 2 gambits to grant an ally a move action.
At 15th level, the fighter can spend 3 gambits to grant an ally a Standard action.
At 19th level, the fighter can use any Tactics ability as an immediate action.

Tactical Opportunist (Ex): A fighter of 11th level can, as a free action, spend gambits to enhance an ally’s damage.

Traditions will have to be modified to use gambits rather than strike dice. Also, I may need to increase the number of gambits gained via level-up.

Tacitus
2012-07-23, 11:35 PM
I'd say thats much better... if Gambits were /round or /encounter with a minimal round by round recharge mechanic and not regained only after doing nothing for five minutes. A fighter fights, and fights all day. He doesn't fight for half a minute and then sit around for 5 minutes thinking about it. He keeps that sword swinging and fights more.

So no, as a /encounter resource, 10 gambits is not enough fight.

A far as the fight goes on Tactics, be wary of giving wizards even more standard actions. Because they totally need them.

wayfare
2012-07-24, 12:08 AM
I'd say thats much better... if Gambits were /round or /encounter with a minimal round by round recharge mechanic and not regained only after doing nothing for five minutes. A fighter fights, and fights all day. He doesn't fight for half a minute and then sit around for 5 minutes thinking about it. He keeps that sword swinging and fights more.

So no, as a /encounter resource, 10 gambits is not enough fight.

A far as the fight goes on Tactics, be wary of giving wizards even more standard actions. Because they totally need them.

Lol, I see that as the fighters decision. Its not like we can deny that its the best tactical option.

I think i'm at least going to bump it up to 15

DaTedinator
2012-07-24, 07:58 AM
Is there any special reason you don't want to let the fighter grant himself extra actions?

Also, I'm not sure I like the gambits system. You're moving more complicated. At the very least, I'm opposed to it being a per-encounter system. I like the idea of it being per-round. Less management necessary.

nonsi
2012-07-24, 04:23 PM
Is there any special reason you don't want to let the fighter grant himself extra actions?

Also, I'm not sure I like the gambits system. You're moving more complicated. At the very least, I'm opposed to it being a per-encounter system. I like the idea of it being per-round. Less management necessary.


Couldn't have said it better myself.


@wayfare:

Not all fighters possess the appropriate training to lead battalions into battle. If you wanna give the Fighter White-Raven-esque abilities, make an appropriate tradition.
And lose the Gambits. It's no more than unnecessary management.

Regarding Yakk's suggestion for +4 to combat maneuvers. At first I thought this would make the table less agreeable on the eyes if there were arbitrary features at those levels, but here's what you can do to spread things nicely and make your Fighter useful on the battlefield:
1. Level 3: Tactics (Maneuvers Superiority) - +4 to all maneuvers (Bull Rush, Trip, Disarm, Grapple, Overrun, Feint . . .)
2. Move Battlefield Mobility to level 7 and call it Tactics (Battlefield Mobility)
3. Leave Armored Mobility to feats, like I did with my Warrior. Not all fighters are walking tin-cans.
4. Put what you labelled "Advanced Battlefield Mobility" at level 11 and call it Tactics (Combat Freedom).
5. Level 15: Tactics (Seize The Moment) - Spend an immediate action to take an out-of turn 5ft-step, or move up to half speed (this comes at the expense of AoOs). Once per encounter spend a swift action to take an extra in-turn standard action.
6. Level 19: Tactics (Action Supremacy) - May take a swift action even after taking an immediate just before his turn.


As for the Dervish tradition: Use the one from the OP, but at 10th level, instead of pouncing (again - inappropriate "Ubercharger" flavor), allow movement up to the fighter's speed and spreading iterative attacks among anyone within reach. This fits perfectly with the image of combat dancing.

One last thing: Strike . . .
Yakk's right that in mid&high levels, it becomes negligible.
So, depending on the power level you're aiming for, either nix it altogether, or:
1. Use the OP's progression, but fix 11th level damage to 3d6.
2. Apply the extra damage dice to each attack


EDIT:

Two suggestions that still stand:
1. Initial Training (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248189) instead of Tactical Shift.
2. An 11th level fighter should be able to maintain 2 traditions simultaneously, and Legendary Hero should combine 1 permanent tradition and 2 "floating" traditions.


This is the final result I envision at current:

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Strike (optional)

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+0|Bonus Feat, Initial Training (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248189)|
1d6

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+0|Fighting Tradition|
1d6

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+1|Tactics (Maneuvers Superiority)|
1d6

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+1|Bonus Feat|
1d6

5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+1|Fighting Tradition|
1d6

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+5|
+2|Bonus Feat|
2d6

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+2|Tactics (Battlefield Mobility)|
2d6

8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+6|
+2|Bonus Feat|
2d6

9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+3|Fighting Tradition|
2d6

10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+7|
+3|Bonus Feat|
2d6

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+7|
+3|Tactics (Combat Freedom) *|
3d6

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+8|
+4|Bonus Feat|
3d6

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+8|
+4|Fighting Tradition|
3d6

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+9|
+4|Bonus Feat|
3d6

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+9|
+5|Tactics (Seize The Moment)|
3d6

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+10|
+5|Bonus Feat|
4d6

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+5|Fighting Tradition|
4d6

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+11|
+6|Bonus Feat|
4d6

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+6|Tactics (Action Supremacy)|
4d6

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+6|Legendary Hero|
4d6

[/table]

* The point where a fighter can simultaneously maintain 2 active traditions.
.