Half-Celestial Monk

[Thalassomedon]

What suggestions can you give on making a Half-Celestial Monk? Is Nimbus of Light and Holy Radiance worth get? What if I multiclass as a Favored Soul?

[only1doug]

Have you heard about how some class combinations don't work?
a character can only do so many things and trying to achieve everything at once means that nothing works properly....

Monk Levels are like that, they don't work with other monk levels...

Most (optomised) Monk builds will have no more than 2 monk levels, some of the better ones have 0 monk levels.

The standard advice is to suggest the unarmed variant of swordsage (Tome of Battle), the variant is more of a suggestion than a fully fledged variant but it is still better than monk. (I've played a Monk, I've GM'd for people playing monk, it really is better to make a different class and just call it a monk than to play as a PHB monk).

[Thalassomedon]

Have you heard about how some class combinations don't work?
a character can only do so many things and trying to achieve everything at once means that nothing works properly....

Monk Levels are like that, they don't work with other monk levels...

Most (optomised) Monk builds will have no more than 2 monk levels, some of the better ones have 0 monk levels.

The standard advice is to suggest the unarmed variant of swordsage (Tome of Battle), the variant is more of a suggestion than a fully fledged variant but it is still better than monk. (I've played a Monk, I've GM'd for people playing monk, it really is better to make a different class and just call it a monk than to play as a PHB monk).The monk class is a terrible class then? If I am a Favored Soul do I need to also be a Half-Celestial as well?

[Psyren]

A Cha-based monk (Ascetic Mage, Battle Dancer, or... Chaos Monk? I think?) could work with Favored Soul. You would be much less MAD that way and could focus on buffing yourself up, then from there PrC into Sacred Fist.

Half-Celestial is a bad idea though - the LA means you will lag behind the other members of your party, and the template is too weak for what you get out of it. It also exacerbates your MAD, since you need Wisdom for your SLAs and Cha for their save DCs, which is exactly the opposite of Favored Soul. I would stick with Aasimar or even Lesser Aasimar for this instead.

To answer your question, no, you don't need to be any particular race (or template) for Favored Soul.

[dantiesilva]

And why not at level 6 take the saint template and add it on?

Gain a bonus to AC equal to your wisdom score.
Holy power that makes everything you cast gain an instant +2 DC
Holy touch deals an extra 1d6 points of damage to anything evil, and can be channeled threw a weapon.

Can cast guidance, virtue, resistance and bless at will. Though the spells are not the greatest they are free to cast.
DR dependent on HD, though not great not taking that few damage can keep you alive.

Fast healing that is = to half your HD. so at level 10 it is fast healing 5

Immune to acid, cold and electricity
Gain low lightvision and darkvision
Protective aura that grants a nimbus of light having a radius of 20 feet. and acts as a double strength magic circle against evil and a lesser globe of invulnerability. All by making your HD = cleric levels.

Resistance to fire 10, +4 fortitude save on posions
Tongues so he can speak any language
and is a +2 LA.
O and +2 Con, +2 Wis and best part of all +4 to cha which you cast spells off of.

Only downfall you lose your next two levels to catch up to the level adjustment. With a Favored soul and three exalted feats I can see a very powerful build.

[Thalassomedon]

And why not at level 6 take the saint template and add it on?

Gain a bonus to AC equal to your wisdom score.
Holy power that makes everything you cast gain an instant +2 DC
Holy touch deals an extra 1d6 points of damage to anything evil, and can be channeled threw a weapon.

Can cast guidance, virtue, resistance and bless at will. Though the spells are not the greatest they are free to cast.
DR dependent on HD, though not great not taking that few damage can keep you alive.

Fast healing that is = to half your HD. so at level 10 it is fast healing 5

Immune to acid, cold and electricity
Gain low lightvision and darkvision
Protective aura that grants a nimbus of light having a radius of 20 feet. and acts as a double strength magic circle against evil and a lesser globe of invulnerability. All by making your HD = cleric levels.

Resistance to fire 10, +4 fortitude save on posions
Tongues so he can speak any language
and is a +2 LA.
O and +2 Con, +2 Wis and best part of all +4 to cha which you cast spells off of.

Only downfall you lose your next two levels to catch up to the level adjustment. With a Favored soul and three exalted feats I can see a very powerful build.I will drop the Half-Celestial for the Saint Template. I am going to keep her as a Favored Soul.

[willpell]

The Eberron supplement Secrets of Sarlona offers a feat called Tashalatora, which allows the Psychic Warrior psionic class to double as extra monk levels for some of the more obvious purposes. This way, you could use some of the subtler psionic powers (Offensive Precognizance, Grip of Iron, Skate, etc.) to give you the feel of the monk's "training to unlock latent potential", plus you'd get feats that could be spent on special combat manuevers and stuff.

[dantiesilva]

The psionics is a good route as well even if its only a one level dip just for the feats Psionic weapon and greater psionic weapon to make your attacks deal an extra 4d6 damage. Take deep impact and now every AC roll you have to beat is a touch AC making it much easier to hit. That in conjunction with psionic fist and greater psionic fist makes your unarmed attacks deal an extra 8d6. Or at least that's how my DM runs it. Saying your hands are melee weapons if you take the feat that monks get that lets your damage be leathel. So a total of around 9d6 damage without the saint template seems good to me. Aligned attack adds another d6 to damage. Then take closed mind so psionics do not affect you. And now you got a monk that has spell resistance basically but better than a normal monks spell resistance. There is also a feat that allows you to run up walls.

So a total of 6 feats so far which is a lot and can stop a lot of builds saying at level 20 you have a total of 6 feats. Meaning you would have to have made it from level one. Another feat that is ok for melee damage but not great because it is a one turn wounder is rapid strike that adds a d6 on your first combat phase. Supieror unarmed strike is a much better route to go saying it increase your unarmed damage over time as if you were a monk end with 2d6 from level 16 on.

So are you making the character from scratch or is it a already made character? And what level and stats are we working with? Would help a lot.

[Thalassomedon]

The psionics is a good route as well even if its only a one level dip just for the feats Psionic weapon and greater psionic weapon to make your attacks deal an extra 4d6 damage. Take deep impact and now every AC roll you have to beat is a touch AC making it much easier to hit. That in conjunction with psionic fist and greater psionic fist makes your unarmed attacks deal an extra 8d6. Or at least that's how my DM runs it. Saying your hands are melee weapons if you take the feat that monks get that lets your damage be leathel. So a total of around 9d6 damage without the saint template seems good to me. Aligned attack adds another d6 to damage. Then take closed mind so psionics do not affect you. And now you got a monk that has spell resistance basically but better than a normal monks spell resistance. There is also a feat that allows you to run up walls.

So a total of 6 feats so far which is a lot and can stop a lot of builds saying at level 20 you have a total of 6 feats. Meaning you would have to have made it from level one. Another feat that is ok for melee damage but not great because it is a one turn wounder is rapid strike that adds a d6 on your first combat phase. Supieror unarmed strike is a much better route to go saying it increase your unarmed damage over time as if you were a monk end with 2d6 from level 16 on.

So are you making the character from scratch or is it a already made character? And what level and stats are we working with? Would help a lot.This a first level character with the unmodified stats of Str: 19; Con: 16; Dex: 16 Wis: 15 Int: 15; Cha: 15. I am thinking I would like to be change the Monk class to a TWF Barbarian. This character is based off of a character I had when I was playing 2nd D&D who wanted to become a celestial.

[dantiesilva]

So I'm taking it as this is gestalt saying you want to be a barbarian and a favored soul? And how did you get a 19 for a stat?

[Thalassomedon]

So I'm taking it as this is gestalt saying you want to be a barbarian and a favored soul? And how did you get a 19 for a stat?Yes I want to be a Favored Soul and a Barbarian. I am going to start out as a Barbarian. I rolled for all my stats. I also want to have the subtype good some how. Is there some way I can fly without get wings from the Favored Soul class? Should the Half-Celestial work like The Half-Fiend Template (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a)?

[kitcik]

I rolled for all my stats.

I would check my dice if I were you...

[Psyren]

Instead of Barbarian/Favored Soul, any chance you can port in the Oracle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle) from Pathfinder instead? Not only is it the exact same concept but more powerful, it will also get you into the Rage Prophet (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/rage-prophet) PrC for even more synergy. And the class features will be great fun for both you and your DM (as you RP your curse/mystery.)

[The Redwolf]

Have you heard about how some class combinations don't work?
a character can only do so many things and trying to achieve everything at once means that nothing works properly....

Monk Levels are like that, they don't work with other monk levels...

Most (optomised) Monk builds will have no more than 2 monk levels, some of the better ones have 0 monk levels.

The standard advice is to suggest the unarmed variant of swordsage (Tome of Battle), the variant is more of a suggestion than a fully fledged variant but it is still better than monk. (I've played a Monk, I've GM'd for people playing monk, it really is better to make a different class and just call it a monk than to play as a PHB monk).

That's harsh, if done well the monk is pretty good, you just have to choose your stuff carefully. If you play it in Pathfinder it's drastically better than 3.5 as well.

[Togath]

I rolled for all my stats.?

how did you get a 19?, The maximum you can roll is an 18 +racial modifers

[The Redwolf]

how did you get a 19?, The maximum you can roll is an 18 +racial modifers

Not necessarily, there are different systems for rolling and setting up abilities, they could be using a different one or one the DM made up.

[Thalassomedon]

I do not like the Oracle Curses.

[Urpriest]

Not necessarily, there are different systems for rolling and setting up abilities, they could be using a different one or one the DM made up.

If that were true, the OP would have mentioned it.

[The Redwolf]

If that were true, the OP would have mentioned it.

Fair enough.

[Hiro Protagonest]

That's harsh, if done well the monk is pretty good, you just have to choose your stuff carefully. If you play it in Pathfinder it's drastically better than 3.5 as well.

And in 3.5, "carefully" means "assuming you own all splatbooks, read all of the ACF and feat sections and cherry pick the best", while in Pathfinder, it still means "have an optimizer's eye and look carefully through all monk stuff, because playing a basic, unarchetyped monk isn't going to cut it". Also in Pathfinder, "drastically improved" apparently means "moves up one tier if built well". And this is from tier 5 to 4.

[The Redwolf]

And in 3.5, "carefully" means "assuming you own all splatbooks, read all of the ACF and feat sections and cherry pick the best", while in Pathfinder, it still means "have an optimizer's eye and look carefully through all monk stuff, because playing a basic, unarchetyped monk isn't going to cut it". Also in Pathfinder, "drastically improved" apparently means "moves up one tier if built well". And this is from tier 5 to 4.

The monk in Pathfinder gets better damage, better AC bonuses, a better flurry, better archetypes, feats that benefit it more, a better hit die, and the universal buff to feat allotment. Playing an unarchetyped monk will cut it and you don't need to have a ton of books to do it, you just have to be creative.

Also, who cares about tiers, or at least who should? The point is to have fun, and if you're playing a class that you like you shouldn't have to worry about caring how you stack up compared to someone else because that's what you like to do, and the DM should be more than capable of making sure that everyone has a fair stake in the game and has fun.

[Gavinfoxx]

I would start as a Lesser Aasimar Mystic. Just play that straight, no need for any templates. Just choose a domain that helps you do what you see your character being good at. And go for some prestige classes that are relevant (check Complete Divine).

Mystic is like a Strictly Better Favored Soul, and it is from Dragonlance Campaign Setting.

Aasimar is in Monster Manual or the SRD, the Lesser version is in (I believe) Player's Guide to Faerun.

[Thalassomedon]

What Chaotic Good-Aligned Deity would be a good for choose as a Favored Soul?

[Hiro Protagonest]

The monk in Pathfinder gets better damage, better AC bonuses, a better flurry, better archetypes, feats that benefit it more, a better hit die, and the universal buff to feat allotment. Playing an unarchetyped monk will cut it and you don't need to have a ton of books to do it, you just have to be creative.
Um... what? I don't remember any improvements to AC and damage. Flurry is improved, but it's still barely got a handhold on the fighter level of attacking power (and this is without 3.5 tricks like charger builds, this is just the Two-Hander Archetype with Power Attack and Furious Focus).

Oh, and that reminds me. In PF, there is no Necklace of Natural Attacks. So you've gotta invest more to get the same output with your attacks.

Also, who cares about tiers, or at least who should? The point is to have fun, and if you're playing a class that you like you shouldn't have to worry about caring how you stack up compared to someone else because that's what you like to do, and the DM should be more than capable of making sure that everyone has a fair stake in the game and has fun.

Me, Lord_Gareth (who actually had experience of the tier disparity when his paladin wasn't very effective at fighting demons, mid- and high-level undead, and evil spellcasters. Fourteen fights in a row), and I'll let the others speak for themselves if they want.

[Urpriest]

Oh, and that reminds me. In PF, there is no Necklace of Natural Attacks. So you've gotta invest more to get the same output with your attacks.


Actually, PF has a functioning enchantable cestus-thingie, IIRC, so it's better off in that regard.

For the OP: Favored Souls don't by default get domains, so most of the choice of deity will come down to favored weapon. I'd don't think there are any that get Spiked Chains, so you might as well go for Kord and get a Greatsword.

[Gavinfoxx]

What Chaotic Good-Aligned Deity would be a good for choose as a Favored Soul?

If you are a Mystic, you don't have to choose any deity! ;) Also I am fairly sure that Favored Souls don't technically need to follow a Deity either... it could be some universal force that chose them...

Also:

Standard D&D Pantheon? Greyhawk (the expanded version of the Standard D&D pantheon)?

Forgotten Realms Pantheon?

Eberron Pantheon?

A custom Pantheon? If so, what?

[The Redwolf]

Um... what? I don't remember any improvements to AC and damage. Flurry is improved, but it's still barely got a handhold on the fighter level of attacking power (and this is without 3.5 tricks like charger builds, this is just the Two-Hander Archetype with Power Attack and Furious Focus).

Oh, and that reminds me. In PF, there is no Necklace of Natural Attacks. So you've gotta invest more to get the same output with your attacks.

There's the amulet of might fists which gives you +5 enhancement bonus on your fists, and I suppose I should say the progression of the unarmed damage is better, and I'm pretty sure the AC bonus you get from insight or whatever it is for going up levels is higher. You could also get a monk's robe which increases other factors such as the advancement of your unarmed damage by five levels and that one is relatively cheap.


Me, Lord_Gareth (who actually had experience of the tier disparity when his paladin wasn't very effective at fighting demons, mid- and high-level undead, and evil spellcasters. Fourteen fights in a row), and I'll let the others speak for themselves if they want.

While that's unfortunate, I still say that it very likely could have been avoided by choosing feats more carefully, investing in items better, allocating ability score points from level ups carefully, etc. I might be wrong in that for this specific case, but I'm a firm believer in just about everything that tiers really don't have a place, the emphasis should be on execution. Roleplaying games, fighters, card games, etc. if you execute well you can consistently take down things that "should" be better than you if you just look at it from a basic perspective. Granted this also requires a bit of luck in most cases, but that will be true regardless of how you stack up tiers.

[whibla]

The psionics is a good route as well even if its only a one level dip ... Then take closed mind so psionics do not affect you. And now you got a monk that has spell resistance basically but better than a normal monks spell resistance.

"Closed Mind: ... Special: You cannot take or use this feat if you have the ability to use powers (if you have a power point reserve or psi-like abilities)."

A trivial point really, but kind of important all the same...

[dantiesilva]

Well made point, but it was more of an either or thing. You can have the 8d6 damage for 4 feats or four one be immune to psionics.

[Psyren]

"Closed Mind: ... Special: You cannot take or use this feat if you have the ability to use powers (if you have a power point reserve or psi-like abilities)."

A trivial point really, but kind of important all the same...

You could always show your DM all the faulty WotC statblocks where they give psionic NPCs Closed Mind, and hope for the best :smallbiggrin:

One example is the lovely Seer Gath-Mal from Tome of Magic's Truenaming section:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToMagic_Gallery/96141.jpg

[Thalassomedon]

If you are a Mystic, you don't have to choose any deity! ;) Also I am fairly sure that Favored Souls don't technically need to follow a Deity either... it could be some universal force that chose them...

Also:

Standard D&D Pantheon? Greyhawk (the expanded version of the Standard D&D pantheon)?

Forgotten Realms Pantheon?

Eberron Pantheon?

A custom Pantheon? If so, what?Standard D&D Pantheon, Greyhawk (the expanded version of the Standard D&D pantheon),Forgotten Realms Pantheon. I was hoping I could get a deity has a sword as it favorite weapons. Why would be a good idea to get the Saint Template at level six? Does the Saint Template make the character gets it gain the Subtype Good?

[Gavinfoxx]

If you want as sword as a favored weapon, you should get a deity with the Greatsword or Falchion.

[dantiesilva]

Type becomes outsider. And to become one you have to have 3 exalted feats and never do a bad thing.

[Thalassomedon]

The Falchion and the Greatsword will not would work since I am doing the TWF as a barbarian right know. Would taking Extra Rage be helpful? I want to be holy character.

[dantiesilva]

At level one yes, followed with extend rage if you are a human. If you are allowed faults even more fun with the rage line. Monkey grip though to make sure you can hold large weapons After all who doesn't want to wield a large long sword in one hand and a medium long sword in the other.

[Thalassomedon]

How about Extra Rage, Extended Rage, and Two-Weapon Fighting? Will I have any problems taking the TWF feats if my Dex is 16?

[Othesemo]

At level one yes, followed with extend rage if you are a human. If you are allowed faults even more fun with the rage line. Monkey grip though to make sure you can hold large weapons After all who doesn't want to wield a large long sword in one hand and a medium long sword in the other.

You probably should not go for monkey grip. Ever. Your to-hit will already be cut by TWF, and -2 attack +1 Damage is not a fair trade off. Get power attack instead.

[Urpriest]

Remember, you can't cast spells while in a Rage.

[Thalassomedon]

The Frenzied Berzerker PrC would be a PrC I should not take be I might attacking my party?

[Gavinfoxx]

Correct. Unless you know absolutely all the tricks to not attack the party, and you and the group decide to implement several of those tricks, so if one fails, the others work.

Also:

Never get Monkey Grip. You can get a better, non stacking version of it in an item.

If you are interested in dealing damage, be a full BAB class, get power attack, get strength, and wield a two handed weapon.

Never get two weapon fighting without some VERY VERY large source of per-attack bonus damage.

So yes, the idea of a character with Monkey Grip, Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword, weilding two large bastard swords, one in each hand... totally mathematically sucks in this game, compared to a character who just wields a Greatsword with Power Attack. It doesn't matter what anime or comic you saw a character doing that in, this system greatly punishes you for daring to do that. Wield a weapon in two hands. Period.

[Thalassomedon]

Correct. Unless you know absolutely all the tricks to not attack the party, and you and the group decide to implement several of those tricks, so if one fails, the others work.

Also:

Never get Monkey Grip. You can get a better, non stacking version of it in an item.

If you are interested in dealing damage, be a full BAB class, get power attack, get strength, and wield a two handed weapon.

Never get two weapon fighting without some VERY VERY large source of per-attack bonus damage.

So yes, the idea of a character with Monkey Grip, Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword, weilding two large bastard swords, one in each hand... totally mathematically sucks in this game, compared to a character who just wields a Greatsword with Power Attack. It doesn't matter what anime or comic you saw a character doing that in, this system greatly punishes you for daring to do that. Wield a weapon in two hands. Period.So what do I do then? What if I took the PrC Dervish?

[Optimator]

Champion of Gwynharwyf from BoED would be PERFECT for this character.

[Gavinfoxx]

So what do I do then? What if I took the PrC Dervish?

Dervish also kind of sucks. It's not actively bad it just... is meh.

Why don't you tell us what books you have, and we will tell you what ways there are to make effective, non greatly magical (or greatly magical, if that is okay for you; opening that up will make our job easier), melee combatants with those books?

Also, read this thread and the threads it links to:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026

[dantiesilva]

You could also take the tempest Prc if you are set on twf

[Gavinfoxx]

Again, I believe the Tempest is decidedly mediocre...

Let's step back a bit.

What, exactly, attracted you to two weapon fighting?

Why is it a big deal?

What do you want to get out of it?

How important is it to your character concept?

Do you just wish to make several attacks?

Do you want to attack with multiple weapons at once in general?

Do you want to actually physically wield a weapon in each hand? Why?

[Thalassomedon]

Again, I believe the Tempest is decidedly mediocre...

Let's step back a bit.

What, exactly, attracted you to two weapon fighting?

Why is it a big deal?

What do you want to get out of it?

How important is it to your character concept?

Do you just wish to make several attacks?

Do you want to attack with multiple weapons at once in general?

Do you want to actually physically wield a weapon in each hand? Why?Well to tell the truth it was DDO that me into the TWF. I would like to make as many attack as possible with each weapon. I do not have be a barbarian though. I thought have the rage ability might help my character out is the only reason I took the barbarian. I know that ranger get TWF feats. To be honest I would take the ranger over the barbarian because I like how they get the TWF feats free and the fact I like the other abilities that the ranger has. I would like able to make as many attacks with both weapons as possible. Is the Feral Template any good?

[Gavinfoxx]

Remember... DDO changes rules from default D&D! Big Time! They REALLY dramatically rebalanced the game in a huge, very very meaningful way.

DDO plays _nothing_ like pen and paper D&D. For example? The DDO Monk has a ton of buffs compared to the normal one. Also, loot and equipment possibilities are astoundingly different in DDO compared to D&D 3.5e.

If you want to play a video game that really feels like D&D 3.5e...

Get the Temple of Elemental Evil PC game, and get the latest patches, and go download the latest Circle of Eight fanmade modpack.

Then, as best as you can, try playing people with things like Enlarge Person, Improved Trip, Guisarmes, Spiked Chains... use tripping and charging and five foot steps and stuff... use Glitterdust, withdrawal actions, etc. etc.

THAT will give you a feel for D&D combat from a video game!

Also, did you know that Barbarian can get you the 'rage' AND the 'tons of attacks' thing!

Just be a Whirling Frenzy, Spirit Lion Totem, Wolf Totem, Barbarian 2; Dungeon Crusher, Hit-and-Run, Skilled City Dweller (Ride to Tumble), Fighter 2, and then go whatever you want.


Here, I'll explain it for you.

Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) is a Rage alternate feature. You lose access to Rage's normal bonuses, in exchange for a +4 to Strength, +2 dodge bonus to armor class and reflex saves, and one extra attack per round while in the Frenzy. The extra attack is taken at your highest attack bonus, but you take a -2 penalty to all attacks that round.
The penalty isn't that bad, because it's negated by the bonus to strength.

Spirit Lion Totem Barbarians lose Fast Movement as all Spirit Totem barbarians do, but you gain the Pounce (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#pounce) ability instead. Pounce is good, because it lets you full attack after a charge. That helps deal with the movement issues the martial classes have to deal with.
Spirit Totems are from Complete Champion (Page 46), so I'm afraid I can't give you a link.

Wolf Totem Barbarians (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) lose Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense, and Improved Uncanny Dodge. They gain Improved Trip at second level and Track at fifth.

Dungeon Crasher is from Dungeonscape, so I can't link it. You lose your second level bonus feat, but you gain a +2 competence bonus on saves and armor class against traps. This is in addition to a +5 bonus you have to breaking down doors, walls, or the like. If you bull rush someone into a wall or other solid object you deal 4d6 + twice your strength bonus damage.
At Fighter level 6 you deal 8d6 + three times your strength bonus, the bonus to saves and armor class increase to +5, and the strength bonus against doors, walls, and such increases to +10. This is in exchange for your sixth level bonus feat. Taking sixth levels of fighter isn't recommended by most people.

Hit-and-Run Tactics is from Drow of the Underdark, so unfortunately I can't link you to this either. You trade away proficiency with Heavy Armor and Tower Shields, and you can't gain those back through multi-classing. In exchange, you gain a +2 to initiative checks and whenever you attack an opponent within 30 feet of you that is Flat-Footed, you add your dexterity modifier as a competence bonus to damage.

Skilled City-Dweller (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) let's you trade a few skills around. It's a bit hard to find on that page, so you should just CTRL+F it.

Also, remember, you can:

Two weapon fight with greatsword and armor spikes, and have a dancing shield.

Two weapon fight with a shield, holding it two handed, with shield spikes on it and armor spikes on your armor.

But, in general, it is a much, much, much better thing to do, financially and numerically, to focus on one solid weapon, and just make a whole lot of attacks with that weapon.

If you want to make lots of attacks, than figure out a way to make lots of attacks. That is probably best as 'something other than Two Weapon Fighting'.

For example, you could have high dex, wield a spiked chain, take improved trip, take combat reflexes, or take the various other feats that let the many things people do let you take attacks of opportunity (like Thicket of Blades from Tome of Battle), or use one of many, many, MANY ways to make a ton of attacks.

Mostly... for this sort of character type, two weapon fighting is one of the worst ways to get your 'tons of attacks' thing going.

[Thalassomedon]

What is TWF good for then?

[Gavinfoxx]

People with per hit bonus damage, and lots of it, like Rogues with the Craven feat or Bards with Dragonfire Inspiration and huge levels of Inspire Courage optimization. Folk that don't mind standing still and full attacking without much mobility.

[Thalassomedon]

You are making me think I need a claymore wielding barbarian with mighty rage.

[Gavinfoxx]

Whatever gave you that idea? Or Guisarme or Spiked Chain. Or Falchion. And you needn't be barbaric to take the Barbarian class. Familiarize yourself with reflavoring.

[Thalassomedon]

I was joking around. Claymores are actually a favorite weapon of mine.

[Gavinfoxx]

Two handed straight double edged swords are cool in general...

[Thalassomedon]

How would I go about getting the Saint template? What if I make my character a Goliath?

[Gavinfoxx]

I would suggest not mucking with LA races or templates at this point. Make a charger or tripper, keep it simple for now...

[willpell]

If you are a Mystic, you don't have to choose any deity! ;) Also I am fairly sure that Favored Souls don't technically need to follow a Deity either... it could be some universal force that chose them...

Incorrect. Clerics don't need a deity, but Favored Souls absolutely do (at least according to Complete Divine, I haven't bothered to read the Miniatures Handbook version but it's almost certainly identical).

[Psyren]

Incorrect. Clerics don't need a deity, but Favored Souls absolutely do (at least according to Complete Divine, I haven't bothered to read the Miniatures Handbook version but it's almost certainly identical).

Interestingly, however - they can't fall, so you can just pick a deity at creation then thumb your nose at it later with no penalty. There is no "Ex-Favored Souls" entry.

[willpell]

Indeed; I presume that they are no more answerable to their divine ancestor or patron than a sorcerer is to the dragons he's supposedly descended from. Magic, divine in the FS's case, is in his blood and a part of him regardless of anything he does.

[Gavinfoxx]

Which is another point in favor of Mystic... Note a Mystic doesn't need a fighter or barbarian dip to be a competent meleeist...

[Thalassomedon]

I would suggest not mucking with LA races or templates at this point. Make a charger or tripper, keep it simple for now...Why do think I should not be mucking with LA races or templates at this point?

[dascarletm]

I say be a Half-Celestial Monk. Every DM I know would reward you for playing what you want, and having good roleplay. Actually I'd see what the campaign is gonna be like with your DM.

I've always been a fan of playing what you think is cool, and forgetting optimization. I as a DM would make sure you have fun regardless of your power.:smallbiggrin:

[Gavinfoxx]

Why do think I should not be mucking with LA races or templates at this point?

Because that means that you would probably want to get level adjustment buyoff, which is complex, and if you want your skills to grow, it's generally best to walk before you run. Yes, there are some templates and some races that are worth their level adjustment, but those are few and far between, and often take quite a lot of know-how to run, as they are often glass cannons. And even the ones that aren't often cause you to have to worry about weird things like level adjustment buyoff, or exactly how templates that are obtained after play starts affect your character and your experience total, and your rate of experience that you obtain for solving encounters.

My best advice is to, if you can get a character that can do what you want, with the flavor that you want, and be good enough at doing it, while maintaining survivability and 0 racial hit dice and 0 level adjustment, than you should do that!

For example, you didn't even know some basics about why tripping is good, or why two weapon fighting is a niche tactic. Just learn the foundations of making an effective martially oriented (or slightly magical but still melee focused) character.

Lesser Aasimar can give you all the race-based celestial flavor you would ever want -- it is class levels that are the main way to define your character's capability of doing things in this game. Figure out what you want to do, and try to obtain it with class levels.

Do some form of Barbarian levels help you obtain that competency? Mystic? Unarmed Swordsage? Crusader? Totemist? Psychic Warrior?

Decide what you want to be competent at, in the most basic way, and then look at the way of obtaining that which helps you learn to play the game.

[only1doug]

Why do think I should not be mucking with LA races or templates at this point?

I'm sure that no insult was meant, to get the best use out of advanced options its a good idea to have a good understanding of the base options and how they interact, i've been playing for over 20 years and while i make concept characters with LA and RHD i haven't yet played one in a game.

[Othesemo]

I say be a Half-Celestial Monk. Every DM I know would reward you for playing what you want, and having good roleplay. Actually I'd see what the campaign is gonna be like with your DM.

I've always been a fan of playing what you think is cool, and forgetting optimization. I as a DM would make sure you have fun regardless of your power.:smallbiggrin:

That's fantastic, really. But, since the guy is asking for advice, he probably cares about having a strong character both mechanically and flavor-wise.

[willpell]

I as a DM would make sure you have fun regardless of your power.:smallbiggrin:

Alas, not everyone has a DM like that. Even I, who agree with you in principle, have difficulty sometimes comprehending the game's balancing mechanics, so it would be fairly easy for me to miscalculate and put a player in a situation where he cannot contribute (it doesn't help how severely borked the CR system is).

[danzibr]

I'd suggest going Half-Celestial Saint Vow of Poverty Monk. Now that's flavor.

[dantiesilva]

With the LA and the loss of two levels do to the template, that is playing risky. Add in the vow of poverty...Though a great feat for some builds it is dangerous with a monk unless you are very careful. Good luck either way.

[Thalassomedon]

Below is the updated info on this character concept.


Her mother is a Lawful Good Angel and her father is a paladin.
Alignment: Lawful Good
Her Favored Soul class is now replaced with the Cleric class.
She Worships the concept of Good, Pelor, or Heironeous. I think that she worships the concept of Good over the two listed Deities.
I know she will have the Domain of Good. I would also like to have the her have the Domain of Good.
She maintains only enough money for food and to maintain her equipment. The rest of her money goes to help out people in and help the cause of Good.
She never drinks alcohol, smokes, or does drugs.
She hates with extreme passion Outsider of the Evil Subtype and Undead.
She wants to gain more power and abilities beyond what she already has that will help out in promoting goodness, healing people, defeating Outsiders with the Evil Subtype, and destroying undead.
She use a Quarterstaff.

[dascarletm]

Below is the updated info on this character concept.


Her mother is a Lawful Good Angel and her father is a paladin.
Alignment: Lawful Good
Her Favored Soul class is now replaced with the Cleric class.
She Worships the concept of Good, Pelor, or Heironeous. I think that she worships the concept of Good over the two listed Deities.
I know she will have the Domain of Good. I would also like to have the her have the Domain of Good.
She maintains only enough money for food and to maintain her equipment. The rest of her money goes to help out people in and help the cause of Good.
She never drinks alcohol, smokes, or does drugs.
She hates with extreme passion Outsider of the Evil Subtype and Undead.
She wants to gain more power and abilities beyond what she already has that will help out in promoting goodness, healing people, defeating Outsiders with the Evil Subtype, and destroying undead.
She use a Quarterstaff.


If you take a Vow of Poverty you'll be able to take the other vows with all your exalted feats. Such as the Vow of Abstinence and such. Would it fit your concept to have the VoP?

[Thalassomedon]

If you take a Vow of Poverty you'll be able to take the other vows with all your exalted feats. Such as the Vow of Abstinence and such. Would it fit your concept to have the VoP?How does a person with the VoP get past DR? Why does the VoP not allow a character to use any magic item of any sort? The VoP is sound like something my character might have.

[dascarletm]

How do a person with the VoP get past DR. Why does the VoP not allow to use use any magic item of any sort? The Vop is sound like something my character might have.

You don't get past DR, but...
A:Since you're a cleric you'll be casting spells mostly
B: You can pick up exalted feats that give you good aligned attacks, which will work for most things.

You don't get to use magic items, except some used on your behalf, for two reasons. One, It's a balance issue, you get powers for the loss of powers. Two, your vow is that you give everything you possibly can to the poor. If you have these expensive items, which could potentially be sold and have the proceeds go to the poor, then you aren't doing all you can to help them. Nor are you in poverty.

[dantiesilva]

You may be looking for the domain of community that gives buffs as its special ability and i believe protection spells as its other.

[dascarletm]

You may be looking for the domain of community that gives buffs as its special ability and i believe protection spells as its other.

Then he would have to worship Estanna.

Side note, could a character worship multiple Ideals to kinda cherry-pick domains?

[Gavinfoxx]

DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES TAKE VOW OF POVERTY!!!

Let me repeat.

DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES TAKE VOW OF POVERTY!!!

For the purposes of a new player learning the game, making a new character, almost the entire Book of Exalted Deeds is a trap!! You really want to take your Book of Exalted Deeds, and throw it in a fire. (Don't actually do this, but for all intents and purposes pretend you don't have it). There is a very, very, very small amount of stuff in that book that isn't a trap.

Further, you do NOT actually want to be Exalted in any way that you gain actual class features from being Exalted. Exalted characters, especially any which take any of the Exalted Vows, are massively disruptive to the normal functioning of a D&D party. Do NOT take any Exalted features! PLAY your character however you want, but don't spend anything you are not willing to immediately lose at the worst possible moment and never get back, on any "Exalted" feats or anything.

As far as only using the wealth necessary to equip yourself appropriately to your job and maintain your equipment? I would like you to open your DMG to page 135 and read the chart there. This game expects, it is mathematically predicated on all characters being eventually equipped sufficiently that their wealth in magic items could buy nations!

So, if you want to make a character who gives all their money to the church, here is what you do:

Talk to the DM about how all of the gear of your character is actually on loan from the church, is the church's property, will be willed to the church when your character dies, and all of her funds are funneled back into the church, but she still gets to use gear appropriate to do her job for the church. She just can't keep it when she stops adventuring, and there will be no heir for it other than the Church if she dies. Her entire 'share' of loot (and she should get a full share!) is claimed in the name of the Church. All of her 'shopping' happens at the Church. If she retires from adventuring, she is expected to go to a nunnery or whatever, and continue to work with the church, and all the gear she has accumulated, her 'share', or whatever awesome artifacts or whatever, goes to the next up and coming martial Champion of the Church.

In all ways, mechanically, you are equipping your character normally.

Also, the bit about the DR? Vow of poverty character's don't bypass DR. They are just generally useless in that situation. There are also several other situations in the game where Vow of Poverty characters tend to be completely useless as well. Remember that with Vow of Poverty, you can't keep a Holy Symbol, too!

It's a terribly designed feat! Vow of Poverty DOES NOT keep up with that chart, or get anywhere close to the versatility (and thus utility in what situations you don't have to stop playing for entire encounters at a time) inherent in any 'not completely stupid' magic item collection, equipping, creating, or purchasing. Even if your character is well below the wealth by level chart, intelligent purchasing and equipping of magic items is still WAY WAY WAYYYYY more useful than the Vow of Poverty 'benefits'. In several situations, for certain readings of the Vow of Poverty feat, even a character well equipped with no magical items whatsoever is still better than Vow of Poverty. Because then, at least, you can be on a Gryphon with a Masterwork Elvencraft Long Range Composite Longbow with a bunch of custom cold iron, serpentstongue, hardwood flight arrows. Or have a Prodd (it's a type of crossbow) which can launch a bunch of ammunition of Acidic Fire or Lizardfolk Sleep Poison or Dust grenades or other batman-like stuff. And let's not forget the Dwarvencraft, Gloryborn, Perfect Balance, Razor Sharp, Pure Ore, Oerthblood, Resilient, Razor Sharp, Blood Groove, Serrated, Oil Chamber, Wand Chamber, Ornate, Folded Metal, Acid Washed, Triple Weapon Capsule Retainer, Hizagkuur Falchion. Which is completely nonmagical... (hey, if you are limited to nonmagical stuff, go for the best nonmagical stuff you can find...)

Also, any particular reason you wish to use a Quarterstaff? The Brambles and Spikes spells? You could use an Ironwood Morningstar...

[dascarletm]

Remember that with Vow of Poverty, you can't keep a Holy Symbol, too!

I always had people with divine focus' say their holy symbol was tattooed on their hand or something, and that would channel the divine energy.

[Gavinfoxx]

You need a feat to do that. There is a feat for the benefit of not physically needing a holy symbol...

[dascarletm]

Well that's good to know.

What book is it in/what is it called?

[Gavinfoxx]

Worldly Focus, Faiths of Eberron.

I think there is also some feat or something somewhere about getting a holy symbol as a birthmark...

[Thalassomedon]

DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES TAKE VOW OF POVERTY!!!

Let me repeat.

DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES TAKE VOW OF POVERTY!!!

For the purposes of a new player learning the game, making a new character, almost the entire Book of Exalted Deeds is a trap!! You really want to take your Book of Exalted Deeds, and throw it in a fire. (Don't actually do this, but for all intents and purposes pretend you don't have it). There is a very, very, very small amount of stuff in that book that isn't a trap.

Further, you do NOT actually want to be Exalted in any way that you gain actual class features from being Exalted. Exalted characters are massively disruptive to the normal functioning of a D&D party. Do NOT take any Exalted features! PLAY your character however you want, but don't spend anything you are not willing to immediately lose at the worst possible moment and never get back, on any "Exalted" feats or anything.

As far as only using the wealth necessary to equip yourself appropriately to your job and maintain your equipment? I would like you to open your DMG to page 135 and read the chart there. This game expects, it is mathematically predicated on all characters being eventually equipped sufficiently that their wealth in magic items could buy nations!

So, if you want to make a character who gives all their money to the church, here is what you do:

Talk to the DM about how all of the gear of your character is actually on loan from the church, is the church's property, will be willed to the church when your character dies, and all of her funds are funneled back into the church, but she still gets to use gear appropriate to do her job for the church. She just can't keep it when she stops adventuring, and there will be no heir for it other than the Church if she dies. Her entire 'share' of loot (and she should get a full share!) is claimed in the name of the Church. All of her 'shopping' happens at the Church. If she retires from adventuring, she is expected to go to a nunnery or whatever, and continue to work with the church, and all the gear she has accumulated, her 'share', or whatever awesome artifacts or whatever, goes to the next up and coming martial Champion of the Church.

In all ways, mechanically, you are equipping your character normally.

Also, the bit about the DR? Vow of poverty character's don't bypass DR. They are just useless. There are also several other situations in the game where Vow of Poverty characters tend to be completely useless as well. Remember that with Vow of Poverty, you can't keep a Holy Symbol, too!

It's a terribly designed feat!

Also, any particular reason you wish to use a Quarterstaff? The Brambles and Spikes spells? You could use an Ironwood Morningstar...I really want my character to get past DR some she can be fiends and undead. I know my character will be turning undead.

Vop feat will not work because I am going to get a weapon made specifically for her to fight fiends, undead, and evil. I am wanting this weapon to have the Sacred or Sacred Burst feature as one of its properties. Also i would like a few items that offer bonuses to Ac since I am thinking she does not wear armor.

Is the Nimbus of Light and related feats any good? How about the Words of Creation feat?

I am using some of ideas from a 2nd D&D character I had in making this character. That character used a quarterstaff as her weapon.

Does the character sound more like a Paladin instead of a Monk?

Why is the BoED bad?

I also like the Saint template.

[dascarletm]

I really want my character to get past DR some she can be fiends and undead. I know my character will be turning undead.

Vop feat will not work because I am going to get a weapon made specifically for her to fight fiends, undead, and evil. I am wanting this weapon to have the Sacred or Sacred Burst feature as one of its properties. Also i would like a few items that offer bonuses to Ac since I am thinking she does not wear armor.

Is the Nimbus of Light and related feats any good? How about the Words of Creation feat?

I am using some of ideas from a 2nd D&D character I had in making this character. That character used a quarterstaff as her weapon.

Does the character sound more like a Paladin instead of a Monk?

Why is the BoED bad?

I also like the Saint template.

Might be more paladin-y. I had a friend who went paladin/saint. Was pretty neato.

[Gavinfoxx]

Does the character sound more like a Paladin instead of a Monk?

Why is the BoED bad?

I also like the Saint template.

Well, okay.

Here is how I see it.

Paladin, to a character, is probably 'anyone who manifests martially oriented divinely-powered supernatural abilities, who also takes the Paladin oath appropriate to his church'

A Monk (in the martial arts style of Monk), is probably 'anyone who prefers to fight unarmored or with their hands and fists, or with weapons that can easily pass as peasant farm equipment'.

A Cleric is probably 'anyone who takes the oaths of investiture in a church, who manifests some form of divinely-powered supernatural abilities'.

A Priest is probably 'anyone who takes the oaths of investiture for a church, and is skilled at priestly duties and preaching'

So, if you are thinking of how these map to classes, than there are a TON of ways.

For example, a Paladin could be (class-wise) an Adept, a Divine Bard, a Cleric, a Paladin, a Ranger, a Druid, a Crusader, a Favored Soul, etc. etc.

A Monk could be (class wise), a Barbarian, a Fighter, a Ranger, a Monk, a Swordsage, a Psychic Warrior, etc. etc. As long as they focus on hands and fists and weapons that can pass for farmer's tools and common peasant items.

A Cleric could be a Paladin, a Ranger, an Adept, a Divine Bard, a Cleric, a Ranger, a Druid, a Paladin, a Cleric, etc.

A Priest could be a Bard, an Expert, a Rogue, a Sorcerer, a Commoner, a Factotum, a Beguiler, Wizard, etc. etc.

And yes, the Saint Template, the Feral Template, the Mineral Warrior template, the Divine Minion template, etc. etc. are considered strong templates, but I still would suggest you not take templates in general until you are REALLY familiar with how to play classes and how characters do and don't work.

As far as the BoED.... it would be easier to ask, 'what options in this book are worth taking?' rather than 'where are the problems in this book?', because that is the smaller set.

[Thalassomedon]

Might be more paladin-y. I had a friend who went paladin/saint. Was pretty neato.I am think about switching to a Paladin. Is a Paladin/Cleric a good combo I roiled my Strength score over. Here is my stats now. Str:16; Con: 16; Dex: 16 Wis: 15 Int: 15; Cha: 15

What options in the BoED are worth taking?

I would better off in the long run since I want to fight fiends and undead to wear armor? I have thought about using magical items to get a better AC instead of wearing armor.

Is it better for my character to worship a Deity or the concept of good? How would worshiping a concept instead of a Deity work?

[Othesemo]

I am think about switching to a Paladin. Is a Paladin/Cleric a good combo I roiled my Strength score over. Here is my stats now. Str:16; Con: 16; Dex: 16 Wis: 15 Int: 15; Cha: 15

I would better off in the long run since I want to fight fiends and undead to wear armor? I have thought about using magical items to get a better AC instead of wearing armor.

Is it better for my character to worship a Deity or the concept of good? How would worshiping a concept instead of a Deity work?

I'd suggest going with either cleric or paladin. Doing a combination seems a bit like shooting yourself in the foot, since you won't be a very good caster or fighter.

You should use armor, definitely. You don't need to spend 16000 on bracers of armor when you can spend 50 on a chain shirt.

It doesn't make much difference what you end up worshiping. Just chose whatever you prefer flavorfully.

[willpell]

With the LA and the loss of two levels do to the template

Four levels for Half-Celestial; two levels would be just Celestial (which is an absolutely awful template that gives you virtually nothing).


Side note, could a character worship multiple Ideals to kinda cherry-pick domains?

I don't think you can do multiple Ideals, but cherry-picking domains is the entire point of worshipping an Ideal rather than a god (although there isn't really any mechanical downside that I know of; I like to houserule that it produces worse results with things like Miracle and Communion, but there's no RAW basis for that).


Is a Paladin/Cleric a good combo

No. Straight cleric is pretty much certain to be better. The system pretty much punishes you any time you deviate from a standard class's 1-20 progression, and Cleric is one of the strongest classes in the game, especially if you have access to a lot of books (they kept publishing more and more cleric spells, and you know them all).


What options in the BoED are worth taking?

Touch of Golden Ice is somewhat strong.


I would better off in the long run since I want to fight fiends and undead to wear armor? I have thought about using magical items to get a better AC instead of wearing armor.

Eventually that becomes a better idea, though the up-front cost is huge.


You should use armor, definitely. You don't need to spend 16000 on bracers of armor when you can spend 50 on a chain shirt.

A chain shirt is 100, and it has a -2 armor check penalty. Masterwork reduces that to -1 but costs another 150; mithril eliminates it but costs a thousand, and you still have arcane spell failure (not that this matters to a cleric). Bracers of Armor don't really compare since they give an armor bonus that doesn't stack with actual armor, but when he said "magic items for AC", what I thought of was Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor, Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone, and so forth. All of which do stack with normal armor.

[Othesemo]

A chain shirt is 100, and it has a -2 armor check penalty. Masterwork reduces that to -1 but costs another 150; mithril eliminates it but costs a thousand, and you still have arcane spell failure (not that this matters to a cleric). Bracers of Armor don't really compare since they give an armor bonus that doesn't stack with actual armor, but when he said "magic items for AC", what I thought of was Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor, Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone, and so forth. All of which do stack with normal armor.

True. However, those don't need to be to the exclusion of actual armor. Once you can afford mithral, all issues disappear, and if you really need to you can just drop a cat's grace or somesuch to make up for the penalty. Regardless, +4 AC for a meaningless (and eventually nonexistent) penalty, for only 100 gold, is still a pretty good deal compared to an amulet of natural armor (which he probably won't have in favor of a periapt of wisdom).

[willpell]

True. However, those don't need to be to the exclusion of actual armor. Once you can afford mithral, all issues disappear, and if you really need to you can just drop a cat's grace or somesuch to make up for the penalty.

But you'd do even better with a cat's grace and without the penalty.

[Hiro Protagonest]

No. Straight cleric is pretty much certain to be better. The system pretty much punishes you any time you deviate from a standard class's 1-20 progression, and Cleric is one of the strongest classes in the game, especially if you have access to a lot of books (they kept publishing more and more cleric spells, and you know them all).

That's not the whole truth.

It mostly punishes full casters and manifesters. Especially full casters who multiclass in redundant classes (such as paladin/cleric). The one exception for this is if you're a gish. If a prestige class that progresses spellcasting for at least 4/5 levels (anything less isn't worth it), and requires proficiency in all martial weapons, two paladin levels might be about as good as a fighter level or two, because Divine Grace keys off charisma, which also fuels Turn Undead, which fuels Devotion feats and Divine Metamagic.

However, taking dips in martial classes (as in, pretty much any of them) is usually beneficial to martial characters.

If you really want to play a paladin, the best way to get the magical and combat abilities is to take Prestige Paladin from UA/the SRD (the only half-casting PrC you'll probably ever think about taking). Fighter 1/cleric 4/Prestige Paladin 5+/cleric +X.

[Thalassomedon]

Four levels for Half-Celestial; two levels would be just Celestial (which is an absolutely awful template that gives you virtually nothing).



I don't think you can do multiple Ideals, but cherry-picking domains is the entire point of worshipping an Ideal rather than a god (although there isn't really any mechanical downside that I know of; I like to houserule that it produces worse results with things like Miracle and Communion, but there's no RAW basis for that).



No. Straight cleric is pretty much certain to be better. The system pretty much punishes you any time you deviate from a standard class's 1-20 progression, and Cleric is one of the strongest classes in the game, especially if you have access to a lot of books (they kept publishing more and more cleric spells, and you know them all).



Touch of Golden Ice is somewhat strong.



Eventually that becomes a better idea, though the up-front cost is huge.



A chain shirt is 100, and it has a -2 armor check penalty. Masterwork reduces that to -1 but costs another 150; mithril eliminates it but costs a thousand, and you still have arcane spell failure (not that this matters to a cleric). Bracers of Armor don't really compare since they give an armor bonus that doesn't stack with actual armor, but when he said "magic items for AC", what I thought of was Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor, Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone, and so forth. All of which do stack with normal armor.You where right about the magic items for AC.

I have chosen be a Cleric since I will be able to better devote my feats to fighting undead and fiends. My cleric will have the Domains of Healing and Good.What do you think of The Cleric Feats from LM? What books should look at for a good PrC from my Cleric? I am think more that she worships Goodness which make her a godless cleric (reminds of 2nd AD&D clerics found in the 2nd PHB). I have use What Books have good Clerics feats? I have found about the Good Domain in a Cleric handbooks online that there just are not enough of these spells to make it worthwhile.


Besides the free ability increase gained by levels and Wishes what are other ways to permanently increase my Wis and Cha of 15?
I was wanting some way if possible to get SLA to help my cleric out.

I should be human right? I am not tied to being human if I am not going to be a Half-Celestial. Though I am not interested that much in being an elf or half-elf.

[Gavinfoxx]

I strongly, strongly, strongly suggest you read this:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0

Humans make great Clerics. Lesser Aasimar are great too.

And just get a Periapt of Wisdom. Do you think the DM would take it away from you for some reason? There are plenty of ways to make it hard or near impossible for your DM to take your neck slot item away, if you are curious...

Healing and Good are not powerful domains. In fact, they suck.

Remember, Clerics make better Fighters than Fighters, and better Paladins than Paladins.

Some options in the BoED worth taking... lets see...

Some of the optional material components are okay.

Aurorum is good if the DM is sunder happy or lets it work for any sort of damage, not just sundering.

Serrenwood is good for bows.

Ancestral Relic is pretty good.

Celestial Familiar, for the 7th level stuff, is okay if the DM isnt too stringent on the Exalted requirements.

Exalted companion is okay, for the same.

Exalted Wildshape is GREAT, for the same.

Intuitive attack is okay for Druids who focus on shapeshifting but for some reason don't like high strength forms..

Nemesis is okay if you have Favored Enemy (Evil)

Nymph's kiss is okay, if the dm isnt too stringent about the roleplay OR the exalted requirements.

Touch of the Golden Ice is okay if the DM isn't too stringent on exalted requirements.

Words of Creation is great for a Bard, if the DM isnt too stringent on exalted requirements.

Champion of Gwynharwyf is a pretty good prestige class for certain types of non spellcasters.

The two Luminous Armor sanctified spells are great.

The Aspects of the Deity are pretty good for Artificer or Archivists.

The Crown spells are okay to persist.

Elation is a good spell.

End to Strife is interesting for some theoretical builds.

Eyes of the Avoral is good.

Silvered claws can be useful if you need it, as can Silvered Weapon.

The Glory domain is pretty good for someone who wants to use their turn undead for actual turning undead.

Twilight and Soulfire armor can be great in the right situation.

Lots of the Archons and Guardianls are good for Planar Shepherds to change into.

Saint is a good template for someone who knows what they are doing.

That's about it.

[dantiesilva]

Take cleric/ Rogue/ Shadowbane inquister. You have the casting abilities of the cleric with the combat of the paladin, and best part of all great (in my opinion at least) abilities. At 10th level dealing 4d6 holy damage to every enemy in 70ft of you is devastating. saying they will take two turns to get to you. Plus if you lose your alignment you keep all your abilities. Add in a way to be able to gain Psionic feats take the feats i suggested alier and you are always doing at the very least 4d6 damage a turn, up to over 8d6 with one attack and a spell.

Human is best choice for the fact at level one you would start of with 2 feats, if your allowed faults then that is now four feats.

Marshal 2/ Clericx is also good do to the fact you get the best abilities from the marshal the first two levels which are minor and major auras, though based on your cha, it can work. Also opens up Draconic aura feats as well by going this route. I am a personal fan of the first build though and having saint add onto it. But yea, the only useful way I have used vow of poverty is on a dragon. Because they are naturally extremely powerful. And even then it was not WOW, it was just, oh thats cool...we just killed a dragon that doesn't hoard treasure...

[Thalassomedon]

I really like the Ancestral Relic feat. i am going to change my cleric's main weapon. I read about the Two Domains I want which are Good and Healing in The 3.5 Cleric Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0) What i got was they are not that great. Is that true?

[Gavinfoxx]

If you want to be a roguish cleric, just do this:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=292794

Well... ask the DM about requirements for Exalted or Good on various feats. Ask if he will be enforcing alignment requirements on all of the ones..

Also, read this:

http://web.archive.org/web/20080416115637/http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-456794

Note that a lot of the options mentioned aren't smart on their own (weapons of legacy notably takes a LOT to work well), and that is a theoretical build... but it shows what sorts of things can be done.

Also, I strongly suggest that if you want to use standard cleric, you use Longspear or Fauchard and Gauntlet or just Morningstar.

Also read these:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12837
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11066.0
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149464
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=350.0
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4400.0
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101

[Thalassomedon]

I like the Destroy Undead -Alternate Class Features for the Cleric. What do you think about it?

What would a good good race to be besides human?

[Gavinfoxx]

Destroy Undead is good, especially cause you can pick up Turn Undead from a prestige class, and have both to spend on things other than actually Turning Undead.

Remember, unless you absolutely focus on turning as your primary thing, you generally want to spend turn undead or destroy on dead on anything other than actually turning or destroying undead.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0

If you look closely there, the races section shows a blue and a dark blue and green list of races for LA+0. Those should be what you consider.

You should also look at the two spoilers that say 'domain powers' and 'domain spells'. You want to look for blue, dark blue, green, or black if it is ABSOLUTELY necessary. Same with Devotion feats, (which you can trade domains for), Feats, and Alternate class features. Blue, Dark Blue, Green.

[Gavinfoxx]

Here are a few more cleric handbooks:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773.0

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10961.0

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872990/Comprehensive_Guide_to_Turning <--If you want to ACTUALLY use turn undead for something other than powering divine metamagic persistent spell or divine metamagic quicken spell. Like Turning Undead.

Niche handbooks, but they can show you some things...

[Thalassomedon]

I have chosen Take Destroy Undead which means I lose the ability to turn undead. Should I find some way to also have the ability to turn undead?

[Gavinfoxx]

Yup! That ability is called "making sure you take a level in the Sacred Exorcist prestige class as soon as you can, which should be your class at level 8".

So that way, with your Nightstick and your Reliquary holy symbol and a charisma of at least twelve, with a single Extra Turning by that point, you have...

(3+1 (base + charisma mod) + 4 (Extra Turning feat) + 4 (Nightstick) + 2 (Reliquary Holy Symbol; divine metamagic counts as a divine feat)) * 2 (twice; once for destroy undead, once for turn undead).

That gets you 28 turn undead attempts for purposes of Divine Metamagic: Persistent spell. Each Persistent spell costs... six turn undead or destroy undead attempts, I believe, so you have four spells that, at the beginning of the day, you make last 24 hours. If you can get a cloak of charisma, that's five whole Fixed or Personal range spells that last 24 hours. So if you are a Cleric or Cloistered Cleric, your BAB goes from 'Poor' to 'Equal to a Fighter', all day long, for example... with the right persisted spell up. And to resist dispels, just get some of these items:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872350/Raising_Caster_Level and make sure you are using them when you are casting your all day buffs. Just get a strand of prayer beads, but where the only magical bead on it is a bead of Karma, for example. Or the other cheaper items that are 1/day use.

This is a good part of why the Cleric and the Cloistered Cleric are better fighters than fighters and better Paladins than Paladins.

Here is an okay list of persistable cleric spells...

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7260

[Fhalyassa]

Should i get a Martial Weapon Proficiency in Longsword?

[Urpriest]

Should i get a Martial Weapon Proficiency in Longsword?

Are you Thalassomedon?

[Gavinfoxx]

Should i get a Martial Weapon Proficiency in Longsword?

...No? Guisarme, Spiked Chain, Greatsword, Falchion are good...

[Man on Fire]

The monk class is a terrible class then? If I am a Favored Soul do I need to also be a Half-Celestial as well?

Don't listen to Monk-Hater, be Ultimate Monk (Monk 6/Drunken Master 2/Psionic Fist 10/Warshaper 2) and you'll be good. As for Half-Celestial - what's it LA and what bonuses it gets?

[willpell]

As for Half-Celestial - what's it LA and what bonuses it gets?

You get wings, +4 WIS and CON, +2 to all the other Attributes, Daylight at will, and other SLAs based on HD, ranging from ProtEvil and something else at 1-2, up to Resurrection at 20. But don't get too excited, because it's +4 LA. You'll be cutting both of those 2-level dips out of the build you mentioned, unless your game goes to epic levels, and the Resurrection SLA will never arrive unless you do so.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, per the 'tier system for templates'

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7044.0

Half Celestial is a Tier 4 template -- not worth the LA...