countering psionics

[drack]

OK, so this one isn't really an easy one to those who aren't a fan of saying "not that I know of", but I'll ask anyways. in the psionics system that I know of there isn't really a way to counter psionics beyond taking ardent or having your DM rule transparency and relying on dispel mechanics. I don't suppose anyone knows of a more reliable method that doesn't rely on caster level checks? :smallbiggrin:

[Big Fau]

Transparency is the default, not a house rule. Magic works against Psionics unless the DM says otherwise (and it's a really bad idea to do so).

[drack]

Certainly is more interesting, but Regardless it is still troublesome to counter psionics. You see they don't use the standard schools of magic, so unlike the arcane/divine or such blocks improved counter-spell can't help you, and so you're left with just dispel as far as I can see, and dispel magic doesn't always work as you need to make an opposed check. hence why I'm asking if there is another way? :smallbiggrin:

[Amoren]

Transparency is the default, not a house rule. Magic works against Psionics unless the DM says otherwise (and it's a really bad idea to do so).

This. Antimagic Field will also work on psionics too, and won't rely on having to make caster level checks against the psion's manifester level.

[Psyren]

Transparency or not, psionics cannot be countered.


The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability, as is the manifestation of powers by creatures without a psionic class (creatures with the psionic subtype, also simply called psionic creatures).


Psi-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

The upshot to this of course is that Dispel Psionics can't be used to counter magic spells either.

If you allow 3rd-party, Hyperconscious adds a feat that makes this possible, but it is done by spending PP to generate psychic static, not via the Dispel Psionics power or any other dispel analogue.

[drack]

Ooh, good call, or better yet an anti-magic ray for countering. Still I think it would be nice not to need so high a slot for each countering...

[Eldest]

Perhaps Dispel Psionics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dispelPsionics.htm)? A better question might be what ways can you counter magic that you can't use an equivalent to counter psionics? You already mentioned counterspelling.

[Ernir]

I don't suppose anyone knows of a more reliable method that doesn't rely on caster level checks? :smallbiggrin:

Ready to fire a damage dealing spell in their face as soon as they start manifesting. They must succeed on a DC 10 + damage dealt Concentration check or lose the power.

Being good at dispel-magic countering requires a bit of build effort, anyway.

[Psyren]

Ready to fire a damage dealing spell in their face as soon as they start manifesting. They must succeed on a DC 10 + damage dealt Concentration check or lose the power.

Being good at dispel-magic countering requires a bit of build effort, anyway.

This is really the only way; standard counterspelling is not possible as I mentioned above.

The problem with this method of course is that they can protect themselves via Energy Adaptation/damage reduction/saving throws etc. And it's much easier to pump a skill check than caster level, especially when they can also expend focus to "Take 15."

[whibla]

Catapsi limits the use of psionic powers, as well as making them harder to manifest. The power could be placed into a wondrous item relatively easily.

Null Psionics Field works in the similar fashion to an AMF, except it moves with the manifester, rather than being static. Again, it could be placed into an item, though it wouldn't be 'cheap'.

I'm guessing you aren't going to go on a quest to find the Annulus...

[Flickerdart]

Just ready an action to shoot the manifester in the face when they try funny business. Arrows are casting system agnostic.

[Psyren]

If they succesfully suppress their displays though, can you tell they're manifesting? If it was melee you could at least wait for the AoO, but they can even get around that, and range doesn't get that option. Readied actions need an observable trigger.

The benefit to counterspelling is that you don't have to bypass their defenses; the only buff you have to worry about them having is a CL buff. A manifester with say, Biofeedback, Concealing Amorpha, Energy Adaptation and Power Resistance up sitting behind a Dispelling Buffer is going to be a tough nut to crack, and even if you deal some damage through all that, you still have their concentration check to beat.

[drack]

psicraft check should give you that. :smallbiggrin: combine that with something to read magic in the air if you need more (an of course ardent for transparency if your DM is being like that.)

[Psyren]

psicraft check should give you that. :smallbiggrin: combine that with something to read magic in the air if you need more (an of course ardent for transparency if your DM is being like that.)

One problem:


DC 15 + Power Level: Identify a power being manifested. (You must sense the power’s display, or see some visible effect, to identify a power.)


If the display is suppressed, you need to wait to spot the power itself. By then, of course, it's too late; when e.g. the beam of electricity shoots from his forehead, shooting the Kineticist at that point won't put it back.

[drack]

That's why I mentioned adding your transparency and something to see the flows o "magic" f it wasn't enough. you see lower levels you'll get enough of them that it'll be OK with just looking at them, but higher levels you stop seeing the tell tale signs, so you must rely on such magics, of which there truly are panty.

[Flickerdart]

One problem:



If the display is suppressed, you need to wait to spot the power itself. By then, of course, it's too late; when e.g. the beam of electricity shoots from his forehead, shooting the Kineticist at that point won't put it back.
That's a check for identifying the power being manifested, not identifying that a power is being manifested.

[Psyren]

That's a check for identifying the power being manifested, not identifying that a power is being manifested.

The language of the check itself implies that without the display you have no idea what's going on. The fact that you don't even get to roll Psicraft if there is no display implies that there's nothing to detect. Without an observable characteristic, readied actions don't work.

[drack]

Which is why you need to be able to see spells and psionics directly at higher levels once things become still, silent, and the like. :smallsigh:

[Psyren]

Which is why you need to be able to see spells and psionics directly at higher levels once things become still, silent, and the like. :smallsigh:

Not sure what you mean. You can't counter them whether you know they're coming or not, so it's not like it matters.

Powers are identified, if not by their displays, then by their effects.

[drack]

Yes and no. there are only really two ways. assuming you have something like arcane sight allowing you to see the magic you can still try to counter with dispel magic or a like spell, else as many have said blast them in their face. Dispel is stated as not always working because you make a dispel check to compete with 11+CL/ML which can be troublesome in that it offers 45% odds of working if you are the same CL, and damage to their face is less likely to work at higher levels because casters generally get their concentration up.

So yes and no.

[Psyren]

As I said earlier, you cannot counter psionics with any kind of dispel. See the rules quotes I posted above.

Countering with damage is possible, but you have to know the power is coming or your readied action won't trigger.

[Urpriest]

As I said earlier, you cannot counter psionics with any kind of dispel. See the rules quotes I posted above.

Countering with damage is possible, but you have to know the power is coming or your readied action won't trigger.

Divine Defiance can explicitly counter SLAs, and thus PLAs. Just throwing that out there.

[drack]

Yes, dispelling is separate from the standard counterspelling. countespelling is straight up cancellation "countering" with dispel magic is dispelling it before it fully manifests, akin to shooting them in the face.

[Psyren]

Divine Defiance can explicitly counter SLAs, and thus PLAs. Just throwing that out there.

PLAs are not SLAs, nor does transparency extend to feats - so unless Divine Defiance specifically mentions PLAs it is out too.


Yes, dispelling is separate from the standard counterspelling. countespelling is straight up cancellation "countering" with dispel magic is dispelling it before it fully manifests, akin to shooting them in the face.

If a power is instantaneous (e.g. most of the blasting ones) then there is nothing to dispel before the power takes its effect.

[Urpriest]

PLAs are not SLAs, nor does transparency extend to feats - so unless Divine Defiance specifically mentions PLAs it is out too.


Interesting. I had the impression that PLAs were defined as SLAs+some exceptions, but that language doesn't appear to be present. This of course also plays havoc with Supernatural Transformation cheese.

[Psyren]

Interesting. I had the impression that PLAs were defined as SLAs+some exceptions, but that language doesn't appear to be present. This of course also plays havoc with Supernatural Transformation cheese.

I already pointed out in the tricks thread that Supernatural Transformation doesn't work.

Certain SLAs are indeed PLAs (those labelled "Psionics" e.g. from the Aboleth and Coautl entries.) But the reverse is never true.

(Well, I never like to say never as there are always exceptions, but the reverse is never true in a general sense at least.)

[Answerer]

Suppressing the display does not prevent manifesting from provoking an AoO. I don't know how, but apparently at least in combat, characters just know that someone is manifesting, because they are entitled to (and can actually) make that attack.

Readied actions work in much the same way.

Also, counterspelling is basically almost never a good idea, even against spells. It's a really poor tactic, even with lots of investment into it. I say this as someone who has run a dedicated counterspeller; it wasn't very fun or even all that powerful.

[Psyren]

Suppressing the display does not prevent manifesting from provoking an AoO. I don't know how, but apparently at least in combat, characters just know that someone is manifesting, because they are entitled to (and can actually) make that attack.

Readied actions work in much the same way.

True, but that's only in melee range. It would be harder to make the case for a ranged attack working, and adjudicating readied actions is strictly DM territory.

For instance, the DM could say that you can notice their eyes glaze over when you're next to them, but not necessarily when you're far away.

Not to mention manifesting defensively denies you even that much. So if they suppress displays and manifest defensively, is there anything to notice then?


Also, counterspelling is basically almost never a good idea, even against spells. It's a really poor tactic, even with lots of investment into it. I say this as someone who has run a dedicated counterspeller; it wasn't very fun or even all that powerful.

The benefit to counterspelling (once you put in the necessary investments to get e.g. immediate action counters) is that you only have one defense to worry about - their caster level. With damaging them, you again have multiple defenses to bypass, followed by the final line of defense which is the concentration check.

[drack]

If a power is instantaneous (e.g. most of the blasting ones) then there is nothing to dispel before the power takes its effect.
again you're readying the action and acting in the same moment. there is plenty to dispel unless the casting time is zero :smallconfused:

[Psyren]

again you're readying the action and acting in the same moment. there is plenty to dispel unless the casting time is zero :smallconfused:

This is incorrect for both dispels.


Note: The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.


The effect of a power with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the psionic effect is already over before the dispel psionics can take effect.

[drack]

truly?? eh, guess so then. :smalltongue:

[Answerer]

True, but that's only in melee range. It would be harder to make the case for a ranged attack working, and adjudicating readied actions is strictly DM territory.

For instance, the DM could say that you can notice their eyes glaze over when you're next to them, but not necessarily when you're far away.

Not to mention manifesting defensively denies you even that much. So if they suppress displays and manifest defensively, is there anything to notice then?
Personally, I'd allow it just because casters (including manifesters) need some weaknesses. I agree that the rules do not require that the attack happen, though.


The benefit to counterspelling (once you put in the necessary investments to get e.g. immediate action counters) is that you only have one defense to worry about - their caster level. With damaging them, you again have multiple defenses to bypass, followed by the final line of defense which is the concentration check.
That's a fair point, but then the one defense you are targetting is their best defense. A Wizard may or may not have any real AC, miss chances, DR, or very-high Concentration, but basically any Wizard is going to have at least "good" if not "great" CL.

Also, the amount of other necessary investments are prohibitive. I had plenty of Immediate Action counterspells in a given day, some of my counterspells even had little side benefits, I had a fair few CL boosters and Dispel-check boosters (Inquisition Domain is pretty huge). I tended to have a pretty good – but by no means automatic – chance of counterspelling an enemy mage.

But it was all I could do. No enemy mages around? Well, there were a few things I had available, but they were afterthoughts and tended to not be very effective. Even if there are mages around, I shut down most (but not all) of one mage's spells. Two mages? Too bad. It just never seemed particularly effective.

[Psyren]

That's a fair point, but then the one defense you are targetting is their best defense. A Wizard may or may not have any real AC, miss chances, DR, or very-high Concentration, but basically any Wizard is going to have at least "good" if not "great" CL.

Well, I'd say this tends to be a wash though - because as a caster, CL should be your best offense. You have lots of reasons to pump it, so it's not like you're going particularly far out of your way to do so. If you can get your CL equal to theirs, the additional resources you pick up to boost your Dispel check should be useful as well.

Now, I do agree with you that the resources to power your blasting spells (or SoS/L/Ds) through the roof do have more universal application, e.g. concerning roasting/pummeling an uppity monster. But they're also easier for a caster to counter, since he's expecting - and preparing for - similar attacks from non-casters.

And finally, skill checks (like Concentration) are comparatively cheap to boost compared to other defenses. All casters want this high, but manifesters especially so they can regain focus in the heat of battle.

[AmberVael]

Suppressing the display does not prevent manifesting from provoking an AoO. I don't know how, but apparently at least in combat, characters just know that someone is manifesting, because they are entitled to (and can actually) make that attack.

You don't have to know someone is using a psionic power to see them sitting around motionless with a stupid expression on their face. An opportunity is an opportunity, whether you understand it or not.


Incidentally, countering psionics is addressed here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060613a) Relevant section:


A psionic power cannot be used as a counterspell, nor is it subject to counterspells.

A counterspell involves recognizing a spell as it is being cast, then quickly altering that same spell so as to create an opposite effect that cancels out the original spell. A psionic power taps the manifester's mental energy in a process unlike any spell. (Many powers have results similar to certain spells, but they achieve those results through different means.)

As noted earlier, most psionic powers are subject to dispelling (unless their descriptions say they are not). When a psionic power can be dispelled (as most of them are), one can effectively counter them with a dispel magic spell (or the dispel psionics power). While psionic powers are not normally subject to counterspells, dispel magic is not really a counterspell. When you use dispel magic as a counterspell, what you're really doing is quickly casting a targeted dispel effect at the correct moment to negate the enemy spell and not creating an opposite magical effect that cancels your enemy's spell.
I want to note that this is rather contradictory to some of the rules in place though- namely that Dispel Psionics mentions no "counter psionics" option at all within its text.

[eggs]

If you adapt Archpsion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20021122b) to 3.5 (which probably just means replacing the Psionic Focuses with Greater Psionic Endowment), it has psionic counterspells.

EDIT: "Negate Psionics" is 3.0 for "Dispel Psionics," if you weren't hep to the old system.

[Psyren]

Not by RAW (even if 3.0 psionics was still valid.) Even if you were to alter the entry requirements so the class is enterable, there is no longer a "Negate Psionics" power for it to alter in this way.

[eggs]

3.0 Negate is identical to 3.5 Dispel.

It could be RAW-nitpicked, but I'd be surprised if any group didn't acknowledge that they're the same power.