Comparison Deadly Stroke & Improved Vitals Strike

[Certified]

Recently we started our first game of Pathfinder. I posted a bit about this in a previous thread on tips of a Wizard using a breadth of Knowledge Skills. During this time I've also been looking at something for our Half Orc Fighter.

One thing I picked up on early on was the Vital Strike Feats but doing some general searches on these feats it seems to be dismissed in preference of Deadly Stroke. This seems a bit off to me so I thought I would present the equivalent Feats here for a comparison.

Requirements:
Deadly Stroke: Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display, Shatter Defenses, base attack bonus +11
Number of Unique Feats: 2 (This does not count the Weapon Focus Feats as they have broader application.)

Improved Vital Strike: Vital Strike, base attack bonus +11
Number of Unique Feats: 1

Note: Both require Standard Actions and so they can't be combined with things such as Spring Attack or a Full attack action.

Effect:
Deadly Stroke: Double Total Damage + 1 point of Constitution Bleed. (Does not count precision damage such as Sneak Attack as I understand it, but this is for a Fighter so I don't think that really plays in here.) Target must be Stunned or Flat Footed. Uses a Standard Action.

Improved Vital Strike: Triple Weapon Damage. Uses an Attack Action (This is a Standard Action).

Example:
11th Level Fighter with Strength 22 Specialization: Greatsword and Power Attack: 2d6+20

Deadly Stroke: 4d6+40 Average Damage: 54 + Con Bleed
Improved Vital Strike: 6d6+20 Average Damage: 41

(Greater Vital Strike: 8d6+20 Average Damage 47)

- - -

Deadly Stroke clearly outclasses even the higher level Greater Vital Strike the main drawback being the requirement that the target be stunned or flat footed.

While Deadly Stroke is excellent for a "Fighter's Sneak Attack" Improved Vital Strike works as a solid attack when a move action is required, or whenever a Fighter cannot execute a Full Attack Action.

Any feedback, comments or corrections would be appreciated.

[The Redwolf]

You can only use the deadly stroke when they're stunned or flat footed, which you aren't most of the time, either of those. Flat footed you have one round to get that chance without other stuff and to stun them you'll need to take up an action to use something to stun them be it a maneuver or an ally's spell or whatnot. You can actually get an even better vital strike that will quadruple your damage and there is a feat, I think maybe in ultimate combat, that increases the damage further.

[The Redwolf]

The one I was thinking of is devastating strike in ultimate combat, but it only really adds up to 6 extra damage. Still though, even if the other one gives more damage, vital strike can be used more often, but if you're looking at a fighter then just taking a full attack will probably give you more damage if you have weapon effects than either of the two feat options.

[That_guy_there]

For the most part if you're going straight fighter without the support of a monk with stunning fist, the Vital Strike chain is probably better (in my opinion)in the long run. As the Redwolf pointed out, it can be used more often in different situations, whoch as a fighter i find is better than being dependant on a single situation.

I'd take Bleeding critical to sort of offset the Con bleed from Deadly stroke (though i know its not the same thing... just saying)

[Certified]

I think we're all on the same general page.

Deadly Stroke puts out more damage and more so if the weapon is magical. (The example provided assumes no enchantment bonus.)

The Vital Strike Feats on the other hand does less damage (25-30%)but maintains a higher level of functionality.

So what I wonder is why people are so generally down on the Vital Strike Feats. They seem like a solid choice for fighters looking to ensure a larger damage output at all times and aren't weapon dependent.

[The Redwolf]

I think we're all on the same general page.

Deadly Stroke puts out more damage and more so if the weapon is magical. (The example provided assumes no enchantment bonus.)

The Vital Strike Feats on the other hand does less damage (25-30%)but maintains a higher level of functionality.

So what I wonder is why people are so generally down on the Vital Strike Feats. They seem like a solid choice for fighters looking to ensure a larger damage output at all times and aren't weapon dependent.

Because at a higher level you'll get more damage by using normal attacks than if you use vital strike, and taking the feat for lower levels and it becoming almost useless later on feels like wasted feats.

[Certified]

Because at a higher level you'll get more damage by using normal attacks than if you use vital strike, and taking the feat for lower levels and it becoming almost useless later on feels like wasted feats.

This may be what I'm missing. How does an Attack Action (single attack) without Vital Strike do more damage than one with Vital Strike? Keep in mind we're not talking about a Full Attack action which should out damage Vital Strike at each level.

[The Redwolf]

This may be what I'm missing. How does an Attack Action (single attack) without Vital Strike do more damage than one with Vital Strike? Keep in mind we're not talking about a Full Attack action which should out damage Vital Strike at each level.

Well it won't with a single strike, but doesn't vital strike say you have to make a single strike as a full attack?

No, it doesn't, odd. Then I'm lost as well because that's the only thing I thought was problematic about it.

[Certified]

Well it won't with a single strike, but doesn't vital strike say you have to make a single strike as a full attack?

The text indicates it's an attack action (a Standard Action). This means while you can't Spring attack or Charge with a Vital Strike you can take a move action then attack, or Vital Strike while Staggered. For me this is one of the great selling points. The other real use I see for Vital Strike is in the instance of very high ACs or Damage Reductions, meaning that that only one strike would hit or that even though striking with multiple attacks the damage is that effective.

[The Redwolf]

The text indicates it's an attack action (a Standard Action). This means while you can't Spring attack or Charge with a Vital Strike you can take a move action then attack, or Vital Strike while Staggered. For me this is one of the great selling points. The other real use I see for Vital Strike is in the instance of very high ACs or Damage Reductions, meaning that that only one strike would hit or that even though striking with multiple attacks the damage is that effective.

Yeah, I went back and corrected myself, that does make it seem a lot better than I had previously though.