Epic Spellcasting Questions

[zeboss]

My group is going to have a lvl 40 gestalt campaign. Is there any reason to go past level 21 in wizard? Isn't epic spellcasting based on the spellcraft skill, thus meaning more class levels won't matter?

[Gavinfoxx]

What you want to do is get Epic Spellcasting from as many classes as possible; you want it from divine, from arcane, and from psionics.

I remember there was one particular build that got epic spellcasting in all 3 methods with as few class levels as possible (it was mentioned somewhere in the Iron Siege threads, but I don't remember the exact build...)

[AWiz_Abroad]

Going to be honest with you, there's very little of the Epic stuff that I find worth the XP drain to develop.

That being said, if you do Epic, it should be something that isn't replicable from non epics. The ones dealing with temporal shenanigans or creation are ones I've developed for my epic caster. (The campaign world doesn't have artifice domain, so I can't get true creation as a wizard+arcane disciple)

The epic feats will help scale the damage (particularly the one that allows you to increase damage caps).

[Silva Stormrage]

Caster level still increases and most importantly you get bonus feats from Wizard epic level if you took no prestige classes. Mostly I would suggest going some type of theurge to get caster level + bonus feats + more epic spell casting. Is there a triple theurge anywhere in 3.5?

[Gavinfoxx]

Whyever would anything you develop have XP Drain? Mitigating it entirely is well within the capabilities of an epic character...

[Tyndmyr]

My group is going to have a lvl 40 gestalt campaign. Is there any reason to go past level 21 in wizard? Isn't epic spellcasting based on the spellcraft skill, thus meaning more class levels won't matter?

Well, there's caster level. And PrC abilities. But realistically, CL is pumpable in many ways. Lost CL are much more acceptable in epic play.

[whibla]

My group is going to have a lvl 40 gestalt campaign. Is there any reason to go past level 21 in wizard? Isn't epic spellcasting based on the spellcraft skill, thus meaning more class levels won't matter?

I suspect that it's a fallacy that once you hit epic levels you only cast, or want to cast epic spells. With that in mind the reason for taking a straight caster class past lvl 20 is the feats. The only way you get 10th level spell slots* is to take the feat Improved Spell Capacity. The only way you can get 11th level spell slots* is to have 10th level spells and to take the feat, yes you guessed it, Improved Spell Capacity...and so on.

*Yes, I know you gain bonus slots based on your primary casting stat, but you do not get those bonus slots until you actually have a slot of the appropriate level, by means of the feat.

I was going to comment on your suggested build the other day, wondering why you wouldn't simply take mage 5 / cleric 5 / mystic theurge 30 on one side of your gestalt, which gives a cl of 35 in both arcane and divine, more if you bother with practised caster, then I kind of answered my own question: A serious lack of feats once you hit epic levels...


Whyever would anything you develop have XP Drain? Mitigating it entirely is well within the capabilities of an epic character...

As far as I know there's no way around the fact that when you develop an epic spell it costs 1xp per 25gp of the development cost. Yes, that xp my be shared 'co-operatively', but that is a variant rule, not the default. In addition, while you obviously do not want to incur an xp cost in actually casting an epic spell, that might actually be about the only practical way in which you can lower the development DC to an achievable number (obviously, this is going to depend a huge amount on how 'liberal' the DM is, with regards allowable items, mitigating spell factors, and so on).


In short, if you're not going to be creating epic items, you're not going to be taking epic metamagics, you're not going to be learning quickened 9th level spells (or not many of the above), then there's little point in taking a straight caster class beyond 20th. It's far better to theurge. If, on the other hand you do want access to those new toys, the only practical way you're going to get them all (bar an exceedingly liberal DM, and copious wishes, which come with their own xp cost) is to take at least some levels in an epic spell casting class.

Personally, I think I'd still go down the theurge route, as, while I haven't seen a RAW version of the epic progression for a mystic theurge, I suspect that they'd still get a few bonus feats, probably 1/5 levels, which, when combined with 1/3 from character level, would probably just about make for a competent epic caster.

[Urpriest]

Epic Mystic Theurge gains a bonus feat every 6 levels, so not that great.

That said, in Epic you're almost always going to want to mitigate Epic Spell DCs down to 0, which inevitably leads to abuse. Pretty much every epic game in existence has a houserule limiting Epic Spellcasting in one way or another. I suggest you investigate yours.

[Tyndmyr]

Personally, I think I'd still go down the theurge route, as, while I haven't seen a RAW version of the epic progression for a mystic theurge, I suspect that they'd still get a few bonus feats, probably 1/5 levels, which, when combined with 1/3 from character level, would probably just about make for a competent epic caster.

Epic mystic Theurge exists, but is garbage. It merely alternates which casting class is advanced. You could simply alternate advancing wizard and cleric and come out ahead.

It also only gives a single bonus feat.

[Jack of Trades]

My group is going to have a lvl 40 gestalt campaign. Is there any reason to go past level 21 in wizard? Isn't epic spellcasting based on the spellcraft skill, thus meaning more class levels won't matter?

If you mean only a pure wizard then no there is no reason to add more wizard levels.

That said there is a great deal of advantages to adding prestige levels that count as increasing your caster level and giving you other goodies.

I doubt you would actually have 21 levels of pure wizard anway.

BTW I never knew why anyone would want to be a mystic theurge. If you want to qualify for being a divine caster so you use the heal and life seeds, then I suggest you take 10 levels of Rainbow Servant and buy a couple of 9th level cleric scrolls to qualify.

Also many of the spells in the ELH are lame, but they are there as examples.
I created an epic spell that gave me +37 to both my armor and natural armor bonus, lasted two days, and was also castable of anyone else
for a spellcraft check DC of 48. I think that was worth it. Who can afford epic armor hardware anyway?

[Jack_Simth]

My group is going to have a lvl 40 gestalt campaign. Is there any reason to go past level 21 in wizard? Isn't epic spellcasting based on the spellcraft skill, thus meaning more class levels won't matter?
Almost & no (in that order).

Epic Spellcasting is based on your ranks in Spellcraft (and Knowledge(Arcana), Knowledge(Religion), or Knowledge(Psionics)). However, you've still got a caster level (important due to SR).

Additionally: Epic bonus feats are very handy, and you really do want those.

[herrhauptmann]

40th level gestalt sort of breaks my brain when I think of the required complexity, but have you considered Elven High Mage in Race of Faerun?

You get cheaper epic spells (25% off) 4 times. And affinity with your choice of epic seeds (not sure how useful the bonus actually is, since it seems sorta small)

[Gavinfoxx]

"From PhaedrusXY(who swiped it from someone else):

Illumian

Ardent1, Savage Bard1, Wizard1, Ardent+1, cerebremancer4, Ur-Priest1, Psychic Theurge1, Sublime Chord1, Mystic Theurge6, Cerebremancer+2, Psychic theurge+1

Key feats:Improved Sigil:krau->early entry to celebremancer

Practised manifester:Ardent

Enchanted Power Sigils:Krau sigil gives normally +2 to caster level but now it gives 3 and with psi/magic transparency it should come to manifester level too.

=

9 lvl divine spells from ur-priest

9 lvl arcane spells from sublime chord

9 lvl powers from ardent->manifester level=17 = 10(levels)+4practised manifester+2(krau sigil)+1(enchanter power sigils)"

That's the earliest way to be able to get Triple 9s from all three methods (arcane, divine, psionic), I believe. That lets you get Epic Spellcasting for all 3...

After level 21, you don't HAVE to do anything to get more power. See, even with a non gestalt 21st level character, you can be equivalent or overpower anything ever statted, with no need to go for gestalt or add another 19 levels. Such is the power of the correct Epic Spells, and the ability to mitigate them all down to 0...

That's why the Iron Siege had soooooo many rules and restrictions on what you could do with Epic spells and such.

[Alleran]

However, you've still got a caster level (important due to SR).
Although you can boost it in the Epic Spell DC itself, and then mitigate it back down.

[GenghisDon]

40th level gestalt sort of breaks my brain when I think of the required complexity, but have you considered Elven High Mage in Race of Faerun?

Me too.

Why not just play Class X plus Class Y. It's plenty munckiny enough already, no?

Perhaps I'm recalling it wrong, but don't gestalt character rules/guidelines BAN all the "dual class" prestige classes anyway, as they are made redundant/broken by the very nature of gestalt?

No Mystic Theurge, Arcane Trickster, Arcane Heirophant, ect?

[whibla]

Ardent1, Savage Bard1, Wizard1, Ardent+1, cerebremancer4, Ur-Priest1, Psychic Theurge1, Sublime Chord1, Mystic Theurge6, Cerebremancer+2, Psychic theurge+1

9 lvl divine spells from ur-priest

9 lvl arcane spells from sublime chord

9 lvl powers from ardent->manifester level=17 = 10(levels)+4practised manifester+2(krau sigil)+1(enchanter power sigils)"

That's the earliest way to be able to get Triple 9s from all three methods (arcane, divine, psionic), I believe. That lets you get Epic Spellcasting for all 3...

It might just be me, but doesn't anyone else see an issue with 'switching' the "+1 level of existing spell casting" between different levels of theurges etc.

To be precise, with the progression outlined above, the only prestige class that is gained 'fresh' after taking a level in Sublime Chord is Mystic Theurge. Add those levels together gives you 7th level casting as a Sublime Chord. This is 2 levels short of being able to cast 9th level spells.

You have to chose which spell casting class you advance when you take a prestige class that advances spell casting. The wording for most of them goes something like "as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class...If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an whatever, he must decide to which class he adds the new level..." There's no suggestion that you can change which class you add that spellcasting to, mid PrC progression.

Am I missing something?


Such is the power of the correct Epic Spells, and the ability to mitigate them all down to 0...

All epic spells, even the ones in the ELH require the approval of the DM. If the DM is daft enoughhappy to let you get away with stacking reducers gleaned from half a dozen sources then more power (literally) to you. I certainly wouldn't rely on that fact, however.


Perhaps I'm recalling it wrong, but don't gestalt character rules/guidelines BAN all the "dual class" prestige classes anyway, as they are made redundant/broken by the very nature of gestalt?

No Mystic Theurge, Arcane Trickster, Arcane Heirophant, ect?

Strictly, yes. The UA says "Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations ... should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant"

The rationale, when you think about it though, is bollocks'flawed'. They complicate game balance of a high powered game, but they're ok in a normal game? If anything, their impact is less in a gestalt, in terms of comparative power gain.

Besides, rules are there to ignore...just witness some of the builds that people suggest... :smallbiggrin:

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, yes. All sane DMs use some form of house rules of epic spells.

But since the OP has never specified what those house rules are, I am going by the way the rules are written up, IE, the most abusable thing in the entire game, better than wish as a standard action ex ability, at will.

[Urpriest]

Yes, individual Epic Spells need DM approval. However, unlike other systems, this can't actually be used to prohibit abuses.

Compare to the situation with custom magic items: custom magic items require DM approval, even when they scrupulously follow the guidelines. There are a wealth of magic items in various sources, many of them well-designed. As such, a DM can simply look at the items that already exist and see whether the formulas need to be altered in that instance.

In contrast, there are no well-designed example epic spells. Every single one is an exorbitant waste of money, and many of them can be accomplished by lower level effects much more easily. In deciding what epic spells to allow a DM has no precedent, no signal for what effects are actually appropriate while still being worth their cost. As such, while in the case of magic items we can't assume that custom items are allowed to deviate from the standards set by published items, custom epic spells have no standards whatsoever besides the formulae. Any restriction on the scope of Epic spells is going to be specific and is going to be thought out in detail before the campaign begins by the individual DM in question, because the task cannot be fairly accomplished on the fly. So until the OP lets us know what the DM's policy in regard to Epic spells is, we assume the worst.